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  1. #31
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    David, I am not going to play any hypothetical games with you. This is not realistic when incomes to scripture. A majority of the time you focus on one little itsy bitsy point as though it were the end all in all, when you do not even have a clear knowledge of Barasheet to Apocolypsos.

    You are asking questions that do not account for the whole of Scripture which invalidates those flawed questions from the git go.

    Why don't you spend a whole lot more time meditating on scripture alone without puttingwhatever the persons spin on it you admire as superceedent to what scripture actually reveals. If you do this, you would not ask so many dumb questions and spire down the rabbit hole.

    If you never saw "The Matrix" you will not understand what. Follows, yet it follows NTL:

    I was done with you when you tried to self-justify every little thing with insufficient reason in nearlyball of it.

    Answer why Jesus received worship as God and benefits all who worship Him without compromise.


    You are just not facing the facts presented, much less answering me...so what do I think of the darling dolly diva of deceptive sociopathological renoun?

    How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsies roll tootsies pop?

    I don't know, but down the rabbit hole you go because we are nearing bullet time.

    Þ.Œ.

  2. #32
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    David, one of your megalithic obstacles is facing you every time you look in a mirror.

    You rationalize (bereft of logic) thinking things out for yourself to satisfy yourself without accepting or accounting for all the facts available.

    Bullet time draws closer,
    Þ.Œ.

  3. #33
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    Hello Timmy

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    David, one of your megalithic obstacles is facing you every time you look in a mirror.

    You rationalize (bereft of logic) thinking things out for yourself to satisfy yourself without accepting or accounting for all the facts available.

    Bullet time draws closer,
    Þ.Œ.
    That is what I am trying to do and allowing you to present the facts you think I have overlooked. I can look at the facts you present and decide on their validity. We all should look in the mirror when writing especially when we are being judgemental as you so often are with me and what I think or how I reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    David, I am not going to play any hypothetical games with you. This is not realistic when incomes to scripture. A majority of the time you focus on one little itsy bitsy point as though it were the end all in all, when you do not even have a clear knowledge of Barasheet to Apocolypsos.
    I do not have the same knowledge as you and that is all we can say. How do you know you have a clearer or better picture of the whole as I do? When you say that, you are saying that against thousands of other intelligent minds capable of rational thought. If you are able to debate rationally, then our conversation is no threat, but a study to enlighten each other and maybe find some mutual ground of understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    You are asking questions that do not account for the whole of Scripture which invalidates those flawed questions from the git go.
    You ask the questions, you think I should ask and be prepared to give your own answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Why don't you spend a whole lot more time meditating on scripture alone without puttingwhatever the persons spin on it you admire as superceedent to what scripture actually reveals. If you do this, you would not ask so many dumb questions and spire down the rabbit hole.
    There you go again being judgemental. I am sure some readers will find your comments more absurd than mine. How do you know I have not meditated and thought about these things. Why say I should do this and not accept I have not done so already? On many occassions your logical thought is lacking. If you were not so judgemental , I would not have to say so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    If you never saw "The Matrix" you will not understand what. Follows, yet it follows NTL:
    I have seen the Matrix about 3 or 4 years ago. It proves nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    I was done with you when you tried to self-justify every little thing with insufficient reason in nearlyball of it.
    I was nearly done with you when your turned insulting. It is not acceptable to excuse yourself by saying you can act that way. It was not Christ-like and those who are trying to be Christ-like would not see your verbal abuse as acceptable. I know Jesus got angry and called the Pharisees "hypocrites". That might have sounded offensive to them, I can live with that sort of comment. Jesus was right, however, your comments were completely out of place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Answer why Jesus received worship as God and benefits all who worship Him without compromise.


    You are just not facing the facts presented, much less answering me...so what do I think of the darling dolly diva of deceptive sociopathological renoun?

    How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsies roll tootsies pop?

    I don't know, but down the rabbit hole you go because we are nearing bullet time.

    Þ.Œ.
    I have commented on this and I have made the same comments in other posts about this same thing. I will explain it again, so you can finally stop whining. I honor Christ and I worship God in accordance with what Jesus/Christ expected.
    We have to look at all instances where the word worship has been used and see if there is an equally applicable word that can be used that does not mean worship in the same sense as it applies to God. When the wise men came to worship the child Jesus, that is what is reported. The author does not add comment as to whether that was politically correct. How do you know the translators could not have used another word so as to differentiate between reverencing Jesus and reverencing God?

    The fact that it is written some people worshipped Jesus, does not mean Jesus was aware of that or took their form of reverencing him as worship in the same sense as God is to be worshipped (as the sole Creator). When Jesus says; (John 4:24) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. That is one aspect of our worshipping God, we must worship him in spirit. Maybe you can elaborate on that. Jesus was not Spirit when he said that.
    Here is the full passage of Jesus words; Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we (including Jesus) worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. When I have said "God", in this context, I mean the Father; the same as Jesus prayed to the Father.

    As you know, Satan ( I know you do not understand the term Satan as I do) said to Jesus to worship him and Jesus replied (Matt 4:9) Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.. The only extra commands Jesus gave us was to remember him in the way he appointed by the eating or bread and wine. And also in the requirement to submit to baptism. We serve God by obeying the teaching of Jesus. God said; "hear him" and this was said on at least two separate occasions. Jesus is the prophet of which Moses spake; (Deut 18:15) The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet (Jesus) from the midst of thee , of thy brethren (a descendent), like unto me (a man); unto him ye shall hearken;

    That could not be any more clear and it is easy to understand. I listen to Jesus and following his teaching which is also found in the scriptures to which Jesus referred and knew and understood very well. I listen to what Moses had to say;doyou? Jesus did not say Moses was wrong.

    All the best
    David
    Last edited by David M; 11-05-2013 at 08:29 AM.

  4. #34
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    Hi David,

    I would like to put two of your statements together, in the hope you can see you are, possibly, being more 'judgemental' than Timmy.

    I can look at the facts you present and decide on their validity
    Bear in mind Timmy is presenting THE WORD OF GOD as facts, and you are going to 'decide on their validity'?

    In other words, you are going to judge the word of God! (Many people would suggest that in so doing, you would be setting yourself above God.)


    In the following, the emphases are mine:
    Originally Posted by Timmy

    Why don't you spend a whole lot more time meditating on scripture alone without puttingwhatever the persons spin on it you admire as superceedent to what scripture actually reveals. If you do this, you would not ask so many dumb questions and spire down the rabbit hole.

    Reply by David M
    There you go again being judgemental. I am sure some readers will find your comments more absurd than mine. How do you know I have not meditated and thought about these things. Why say I should do this and not accept I have not done so already? On many occassions your logical thought is lacking. If you were not so judgemental , I would not have to say so.
    Because of your response, I am going to translate for you. Timmy said,

    Why don't you lay aside all your preconceptions, and just think about what the Bible says all by itself?

    He made this suggestion because he thinks you would discover that some of your received wisdom is plainly untrue. You should believe the Bible, instead.

    This (discovering) is the same principle by which any counterfeit is detected and avoided, namely, that intimate acquaintance with the 'real thing' will save you from being cheated with a fake.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  5. #35
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    Hi Richard,

    I won't have time to read the original discussion you posted, but I do want to comment on your post on the previous page.

    I explained that the concept of "sin nature" is found nowhere in Scripture and actually makes no sense at all.
    I am not going to attempt to draw all my thoughts into a recognisable 'theological' construct, because that, as you have pointed out, has led to erroneous thinking. What we do have, instead, are clear statements in scripture, each one of which is valid. I'll assume you can follow, without quoting too much.

    One part of the thesis of the person who made the video at the start of this thread, is the same point you're making - that 'flesh' is not intrinsically evil. He would say sin's about rebellion against God; that we are born into rebellion; from this we should repent, mend our ways by turning from sinful practices - to yield our members to righteousness rather than to sin. This is completely clear in the NT from Jesus, Peter, Paul and John, and perhaps it assumes a typically Israeli understanding of the totally integrated person. Of itself, though, the statement lacks reference to the cross of Christ by which all relief from sin and its consequences is obtained. The cross - God's mechanism for our salvation - seems to defeat most people. (I don't mean it has defeated the author of the video; only that many Christians could not expound Romans 6 with any understanding or excitement.)

    Looking back to the garden of Eden, Paul says (more than once) that we all 'died' 'in Adam'. This is where fleshly thinking receives its heaviest blow, since none of us can avoid the physical death which awaits us. Our lives are like the fuse to some damp dynamite which will implode when the light touches it. What can be done to 'save' our souls from perishing with our bodies, when the slow burn ends as the spirit departs?

    Enter the word of God, which can divide - separate - one invisible part of our being from another. Amazing!

    Hebrews 4
    12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

    14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


    The word of God could (and did) show mankind its wretchedness, (and Moses didn't want to have to look at his wretchedness). Nevertheless, until Jesus Christ died on the cross - a death into which we can enter in spirit (reality) - every human heart was functioning just as Jesus describes it:

    Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

    (The proof of the universality of this kind of heart is the emphasis on a clean conscience which is placed by the NT writers:

    Hebrews 10:19 - 22, 1 Peter 1:2, Acts 13:38, 39, 1 John 1:7.)

    So, yes, it is not the flesh itself, but the heart which produces the fruit/seed of the tree of death from which Adam ate and died.


    A good way to understand the role of the flesh is as a partner in sin, because the desires of the heart are a critical factor.

    Right at the beginning of Ephesians Paul says more than usual about the will of God - the expression of His heart.

    Likewise, 'the will of' man is as dynamic in respect of what he achieves or does not achieve. We all get the desires of our heart, whatever they may be. This is one of the most terrifying truths to encounter with one's whole brain awake and in gear. Without the word of God piercing our hearts, as happened to the men in Acts 2, we might never begin to desire to cease from our deadness and all the corruption which naturally flows from it, day by day. We need God to become our new source - John 7:38.

    The flesh is actually a servant to whatever we desire. It can shout for attention very loudly, but never so loudly that we cannot subdue it if we so desire. To an extent, that was one good outcome of 'the law' - as an inhibitor - but its application was entirely external. But the cross of Christ offers an internal solution, and eternal life to those who embrace its power, while apparently deterring those who choose to remain not 'in Christ'.

    I believe God searches and tries our hearts, to inform us of our need for a change (of heart). In His mercy He pushes us for an answer to His overtures. The more we hear Him, the more faith is created by which the step to initial change can be made. Then it has to be applied day by day.

    It is only as we genuinely receive a new heart and a new spirit, that we can say amen to Paul's bold statement in 2 Corinthians 5 - about old things having 'passed away' and 'all things' being new; (that) the one who believes has become 'a new creation'; the flesh profits nothing. From 2 Cor 4 to 2 Cor 7:1 is one of the longest descriptions Paul ever made, of the effect of the dynamic of the cross when it is being allowed to work in a believer's experience.

    In Ephesians also, Paul shows how the same 'effectual working' of the death of Jesus Christ and His resurrection releases us from the death which began in the garden of Eden - if we will receive the grace of God, and allow Him to work His desires in us. It is only in Him, that 'all are made alive'. Psalm 37:4 - 6.

    Paul says something more about the process he has experienced, in Ephesians 3:

    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.


    If one understands that when Jesus died on that cross, the whole man was crucified - the natural man as well as the man of sin - one can be expectant of being grafted into the death of Christ and walking only in 'newness of life', as Paul puts it in Romans 6:4, with the 'new creation' in the ascendancy, and the flesh serving only God's purposes - until 'that day' when some are raised to glory, and some are raised to shame. It goes without saying that one cannot be filled with 'all the fulness of God', if one is still full of sin; doesn't it?
    Last edited by Charisma; 11-06-2013 at 02:54 AM.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  6. #36
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    Hello Charisma

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi David,

    I would like to put two of your statements together, in the hope you can see you are, possibly, being more 'judgemental' than Timmy.



    Bear in mind Timmy is presenting THE WORD OF GOD as facts, and you are going to 'decide on their validity'?

    In other words, you are going to judge the word of God! (Many people would suggest that in so doing, you would be setting yourself above God.)
    I am not being judgemental of Timmy in the same way things have been said about me. like I am going to hell for believing Jesus is not God. I would not say anything like that to you. I think you are misapplying the word "judge" to my understanding of the Bible. As you know, we are to "rightly divide the word of scripture". That is what I am always trying to do. If I have got it wrong and your are right, then your side of the argument should win.

    Of course, I have to make a decision about what someone else says about the scripture or says is from the scripture. We have to do what the Bereans were commended for. I expect you to do the same. Are you following and understanding my reasoning or have you closed your mind thinking and that what you believe is totally right? We should all keep an open mind to new ideas and thoughts, but I am not going to give up on everything that I have come to a reasoned conclusion after all the time I have spent considering it. I will listen to your argument, but it has to stand up to scrutiny and I expect you to scrutinize my reasoning. Why have you given up reasoning with me? I have not received replies from you (or have I missed some?).




    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    In the following, the emphases are mine:

    Because of your response, I am going to translate for you. Timmy said,

    Why don't you lay aside all your preconceptions, and just think about what the Bible says all by itself?
    I can do that, but how do you then understand the parables? How do you understand the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, for example? Unless you reason some things out, you might never get to know what they mean. I am learning new things all the time. The Bible is so full of material, it is a life-time's work of learning. Would you ask Jesus to lay aside his preconceptions or did he not have any? Unless, you can persuade me with rational reasons, I cannot be expected to give up all my beliefs at your say-so. Would you start having an open mind and consider alternatives ideas to eternal life? You have to give me reasons to do so, and I have to consider them; that is all any of us can do.

    Please answer these two questions:
    Q1. What doctrine are you willing to change your opinion of or belief?
    Q2. What prophecy, psalm, or parable do you not understand? Give one example.


    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    He made this suggestion because he thinks you would discover that some of your received wisdom is plainly untrue. You should believe the Bible, instead.

    This (discovering) is the same principle by which any counterfeit is detected and avoided, namely, that intimate acquaintance with the 'real thing' will save you from being cheated with a fake.
    Timmy has nothing to fear, if he can reason rationally. Jesus asked the scribes and Pharisees questions, and they could not answer him. That is the time to worry. If you have reasoned things out correctly, your side of the argument/debate should stand up against my side. Neither of us has anything to fear, if we are searching for a greater understanding of God's word to find the Truth.

    What you said to Richard, I already do. I look for other parts of scripture to answer scripture. If you are doing the same, we should find agreement.

    Here is another question;
    Q3 What is your reasoning behind the angels in Jude 6; who are they and how do you come to that decision?

    If you disagree with my reasoning, then reply in the thread on the subject. This is not of vital importance to understand, and if you admitted that you had not come to a decision, then that does not matter. I have come to a decision and it will take powerful reasoning to persuade me to change my mind. I am not closing my mind, all I am saying is; present powerful reasons that stand up to scrutiny.

    All the best
    David

  7. #37
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    Hello again "David M.",

    You might think considerations here concerning the ways and means you operate is unfounded and perchance wonder why there really is little rebuttal.

    In response, you exhibit a most profound ignorance and rather than owning up to this fact. In your own foolish satanic pride displaying unquestionable logical fallacy, you prove to your selfs that you are a legend in your own mind. A majority of onlookers see your will and ways extremely different than you do.

    Several here have attempted to explain to you your erroroneous ways. Only a few of these compatriots here--that immediately come to mind in this regard--are:
    --Rose
    --Charisma
    --silence
    --Mystical
    --L67
    --Psalm 27.1
    --Heb. 13.13
    --Bob May

    Your assumption that Richard and myself are so much like one another has now been shown to you to not be the case at all...so drop it. In fact quit comparing people to other persons as though they could somehow be the same.

    On the other hand, to identify an ideological fallacy you have chosen to own and promote, whether Rood or your favorite kultus is not unjustified in consideration as you have proven no differently. Besides, a label is only a label, and yet if the shoe fits, wear it.

    Why in the face of truths and facts you spit on, why oh why do you instead delude yourself further????

    Instead of being grateful to all who have wasted alot of time trying to reason with your lack of reason, you instead seem to act as if everyone is just out to get you, which is hardly the case...but you continue to put yourself on display; and yet, one fact recognizable of this forum is that once we make our voice heard, it is open season: sometimes quaint, sometimes nice, sometimes blunt, sometimes sarcastically or with cynicism. YET, there will be investigative analysis picking through whatever ambiguity that appears to hold inconsistency to each of us from our own perspectives.

    Nobody here has your demise in mind ...and several of us are praying for y'all.

    Reading your post to Richard that he has given such prominence out from "Why I Quit Christianity" says alot about the undercurrents behind many of your considerations, as well as priorities. For me, it cuts to the heart of where you presently stand in approach, attitude, and demeanor.
    In fact, a bit more heart to heart would be appreciated (here at least) instead of all the promotion of what you say you consider to be absolute. It is not an issue of disparity noted in these things so much as if we will be learning to recognize these things as they exist and will find the way to move forward beyond what is recognized as blind faith and beliefs that hold no substance throughout our real world experiences.

    You might think me mean and you are entitled to this; but, you do not see things from this perspective even as I do not clearly see your paradigm or world view through those glasses.

    Granted, you could probably find several inconsistencies in my own reasoning...without having the full picture, and yet you have failed to show this though you could have. Remember, we are now talking about disambiguation...and alot of times things are intentionally left open-ended or made to seem without reason by the Timmy for the sake of further examination of my own inconsistencies.

    Still...instead of gratefulness for the mercy and grace our Happy Host has ceaselessly showed us both, why are you so insistent that many of the things you promote make little if any sense at all when exposed to the light of cogent facts????? You are beginning to prove yourself a hopeless conflagration onto yourself. Have you ever just sat down and considered how much time Richard alone has burned on you, only for you to smack him back with logical fallacy ad infinitum?

    Indeed “Wisdom is the principle thing”, and yet your own insistent negations of sensible logical reasoning belie the beliefs you think somehow people who are thoroughly prepared to give an answer from our own perspectives are somehow going to buy into that?

    ...so do not even wonder why you are seen to exhibit the characteristics of both troll and shill.

    ...What persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

    But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
    II Timothy 3.11b-17

    It is desired that you will consider the above words in bold without any self justifications, even though this is a strong tendency for all of us manimals to do. It is also asked you consider the comments Charis posted toward your own well being.

    It is one thing to be renounced and defamed for Faith in Y'shua and another altogether to be denounced for unreasonability.

    You have yet to show any sound cogent reasoning, deceived darling dolly diva deludedly thinking any can find your vain imaginings to be anything worthwhile.

    For all the hubbub of your saying stupid stuff like "this discussion is over", no matter the whatnots and wherefores, you seem to appear to have somehow become hooked into reading what travels from inside of me and through these fingertips into our beloved B.W.F.A.™.

    ...and in a roundabout answer to that question once troubling you about the Timmy, it is best to forget it.
    Richard's posting and placing the song by Kansas, "Carry On My Wayward Son" will tell you oh so much about me in far fewer words than any discursions of mental meanderings Timmy is prone to lose everyone in, including hir selfs.





    Quote Originally Posted by Þ.Œ.

    David, I am not going to play any hypothetical games with you. This is not realistic when it comes to Biblical text. A majority of the time you focus on one little itsy bitsy point as though it were the end all in all, when you do not even have a clear knowledge of Barasheet to Apokalypsis. You are asking questions that do not account for the whole of Scripture which invalidates those flawed questions from the git go.
    Quote Originally Posted by David M.

    I do not have the same knowledge as you and that is all we can say. How do you know you have a clearer or better picture of the whole as I do? When you say that, you are saying that against thousands of other intelligent minds capable of rational thought. If you are able to debate rationally, then our conversation is no threat, but a study to enlighten each other and maybe find some mutual ground of understanding.
    You have once again focused on the issues surrounding the premise and not accounting yourself to what is proposed--(kind of like knowing you are going to burn in hell but fail to do anything to alter that. The burning in hell is the result and not the cause of completely defying His revelation of who He is so that you can Know Him as He is and not merely some imagined reasoning about Him).

    So, first comes the answer to your query, and then what is actually meant and intended in that brief statement can be clarified for your own benefit.

    Nobody on earth has the same knowledge, and receptivity to environmental stimuli foreshadows perception, perspective onto retention. So, your response in that first statement is saying very little and actually sounds like an excuse of resignation.

    How do I consider myself to have a clearer picture? I really am not sure that I do, but I know the one who does; and in this Tanakh reveals I am becoming wiser than all my teachers through nothing I have done except continue to memorize and meditate in The Torah from Eloheinu: when I arise and when I go to sleep, when I sit down and when I stand up, when I am thinking about something in particular and when I am not, when I speak and when I remain silent, when I pray and when I take care of all other secondary responsibilities, when I am busy and when I relax, Etc. Etc. Etc...and the proof is in the pudding: real world results as promised in the Holy Scriptures, beginning with deepening relationship with Yaweh, and benefits to everyone about me who blesses and will not curse me.

    Rationalization comes from rational thought, and in the scriptures this is understood as the first part of, and parceled within the factors composing wickedness. Without God's thoughts directing any reasoning, only leads to transgression against God and ultimately results in death. Let me tell you, I see this very thing very clearly from my own life experiences, and yet this has arrived only after years expended seeking God's face. So, let the worldly wise babble on with however any consider the supposed voice of intellectual, reason, or rationale; because to Elohim it is all foolishness: ashes to ashes and dust in the wind.

    There is no mutual ground of understanding where another cannot even understand to receive, or is that receive to understand?

    You will probably continue to reason (not from, but) about the scriptures, and yet I persist in learning how to better and better relate with Yah on His terms. Our motives and practices are entirely in opposition to one another. I am trying to get closer to Him and you remain distanced. I shall not back down and I shall not sit idly by when another fellow human being is observed to be destroying themselves on the highway to hell, for Jesus the Christ who shall raise up every human and judge them according to what they have done in regard to Him judges rightly...and His word reveals the fate of receivers who are deceived as you.

    "David M.", in all truth, there are only two religions in the world, so it really does matter what anyone is identified with when God of Heaven and Earth is secondarily relative to whatever the label is of those teachings and reasonings.

    Have you ever stopped to think that the Apostles have referred to Tanakh in different places of the Ha'B'rit Hadasha (NT) as “the word of Kurios/the Lord/God"?

    This fact signifies the palpability of experiencing Y'shua in our lives in relating with Him on His terms in that the whole Bible is for the sole purpose of revealing Himself to us in every aspect of His beingness, so that whoever remains trusting Him (as He reveals Himself to be) shall never perish.

    Even as His Spirit--this spirit of God--is the same yesterday, right now, and forever, even so Jesus, the very person behind this spirit is the same: Hebrews 13.8.

    Those two religions can be summarized as follows:
    1) What man attempts to do to appease and relate with whoever or whatever they consider God, be that themselves, their reasoning, or any type of sectarianism whether kultic or supposedly xian;
    &
    2) What God has done for us to be received through experiencing the life, death, and resurrection of Y'shua Ha'Mashiach by coming into identification with Him in thought, word, and deed.

    It is either a matter of expecting God to operate on your terms which never becomes anything but an imaginary experience at best...or...coming into a familial relationship with God on His terms and this growing relationship within Him fulfills every facet of our existence.


    The quoted statements from Timmy were epitomizing your own informal, formal and inductive fallacies you espouse, particularly "cherry picking" and "straw man" argumentation (inductive) and your tendency to skirt the issues (informal), yet you often begin with unrelated generalizations (formal) ignoring the premise for the discussion/debate in the first place.

    As stated, those games are over, so examine what you say before writing whatever you claim, or it more than likely shall be met with complete silence as it deserves.

    Little mention has been made of your most deceptive fallacies of exclusion though.

    If a person cannot handle the Law of Non-Contradiction, it appears useless--as you have proven in the thread that denies Jesus is God--to attempt further understanding how x=y even though the outward appearance of these two factors seem not to be similar.



    Later maybe,

    Þ.Œ.

    p.s. Have you considered posting in the "Street Epistemology" thread and see how you fare there?
    ...and BTW, the Bereans based all their understanding of Scripture on other Scripture, not anywhere near what you have done and do, basing what you assume the Bible should mean because of sources that are nowhere near Biblical text. (There will be hell to atone for your misdeeds because you fail to admit or receive what God says exists FOR YOU by His Word, Y'shua Ha'Mashiach.)
    Last edited by Timmy; 11-05-2013 at 07:43 PM.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
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    David?

    Reading back on p.3, it appears you assume I do not accept you have reasoned things out for yourself.

    It is accepted that you accept your own reasoning as the sole proof of what your mental assent has determined as truth.

    It is not that this is not accepted for you, but that this is completely unacceptable as a means of actually understanding scripture.

    I also laughed when you wrote that you have never heard the teachings I relate only a miniscule portion of what is already known through praxis.

    If you feared what Elohim says more than what you take pride in determined from your own mental reasoning and whatever other source, perhaps you would see things differently, hinh?

    You might be looking for a long time hoping to see what has been revealed to me. If you do not use it, you will lose it.This is not an acquisition, but rather experience your instruction and guidance from Yaweh. I waited for years continually pressing into the narrow turnstile before any sort of resolution came. It was not until everything else in my life was considered completely insignificant if I could not know Him...only after that attitude was fixed, remained as the sole purpose did anything began unfolding.

    Have all the surface knowledge you care to garner.

    It is not and will never be anything like relationship with the one in whom are hidden all treasures of knowledge and wisdom: Y'shua.



    Who is the man who fears the Lord?
    Him will He train into the path
    that he should take.
    His soul shall abide in ease of well-being,
    and his offspring shall inherit the land.

    The secret friendship of the Lord is for those who fear Him,
    and He makes his covenant tangible to them.


    My eyes are always facing the Lord,
    Because he shall pluck my feet out of the net.
    ~Psalm 25.12-15
    Þ.Œ.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    780
    Hi David,

    I have stopped reasoning with you because - as you have explained many times - you do not yet accept the revelation of scripture as the platform from which and by which your thinking should be adjusted.

    Everything you think or believe has to be acceptable to your fallen mind - in other words, an impossible recipe for the growth of a soul.

    Also, you are a self-proclaimed cecessionist. So, apart from God sneaking some truth under or around the colossal barriers you have placed in the way of your own potential for understanding, there is so little risk you will step out of your idolatry (that is, your worship of your own fallen mind's ability to determine what is truth from God) onto any sliver of the ground of faith, I have - for the moment - concluded that you are only interested in word games; and I am not playing.

    That said, I recognise that you are in the grip of spiritual powers which affect your ability to reason with a clear mind, although it will appear to you that you are undeniably 'right' about your dterminations, no matter how far off God's truth you are pitching your tent.

    And this is where what I explained to Richard about 'desires of the heart, has the potential to come to your rescue. Because, if like Timmy described, you are willing - like Peter and the disciples - to give up everything - even your long-cherished theology - to KNOW Him - like Paul, calling all previous 'gain', as good as dung - you should be able to start wriggling out of the grip of what the Bible calls 'devils' or 'foreign gods', with no loss of face before God - if you WANT to.

    Of course there will be casualties. Your pride, your popularity, perhaps; a loss of self-image as it pertains to your desire to be pleasing to others whose respect you think you need, or hitherto, have craved; and you may well think you are going mad, whereas you will, in fact, be gaining God's definition of sanity; those pointers and more, will indicate you are heading in the right direction if you have begun to count the knowledge of God as the only prize worth having.

    So, to conclude; I am not interested in your gift for side-stepping reality, your rhetoric , or your sense of umbrage; nor in discussion of superficial technicalities which act as avoidance tactics to keep you fom the agonies and the ecstacies of real relationship with God Himself.

    If you are willing to desire for yourself what God desires for you, you will start reading the Bible differently; you will hunt God down because your life depends on being found by Him, and you will begin to stop treating scripture like box of ping-pong balls which exist merely for your religious entertainment. in fact, you will actually pray to God for deliverance from every ounce of reigiousness which keeps you cut off from the relationship He desires with you.

    Now.... the foregoing is well and truly enough about you. It is time to focus on what God actually says, without fear or favour to men who hold any alternative filter (such as a different denominational bias, or 'science') for judging the word of GOD and His righteousness.

    His righteousness flows from the tree of life, Jesus Christ. Man's righteousness flows from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the tree of death.



    What I have written is the answer to your question which I addressed in the first paragraph. My reply is not up for discussion - at least, not with me.

    May God bless you as you begin to kick over the traces of all the error by which you are bound to many false and worthless religious constructs.

    If you are dead in Christ (Romans 6:3), then you are released from your past in its entirety. If you are still battling, then hasten to the cross and die in Him. That will include your mind, which may begin to be renewed as you read scripture free from your own ideas.

    Let me say very clearly: your idea that a man (Jesus Christ) became God after he died, is no different than what many pagans believe about their gods.


    Do you understand (any of what I've written)?

    If you don't understand, you may answer with the word, 'No'. Feel free to ask a question - but only if you want an answer.

    Otherwise you may answer 'Yes'.
    Last edited by Charisma; 11-06-2013 at 03:18 AM.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    2,564
    Hello Charisma

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi David,

    I have stopped reasoning with you because - as you have explained many times - you do not yet accept the revelation of scripture as the platform from which and by which your thinking should be adjusted.
    I am accepting scripture; just not in the way you understand it. You make unfounded accusations about me, the same as Timmy does; that is your bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Everything you think or believe has to be acceptable to your fallen mind - in other words, an impossible recipe for the growth of a soul.
    "Fallen mind"!! How judgemental you are and now you are sounding as if the Righteous Judge. I am not perfect, as you are not perfect, and in that sense, we have both been unrighteous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Also, you are a self-proclaimed cecessionist. So, apart from God sneaking some truth under or around the colossal barriers you have placed in the way of your own potential for understanding, there is so little risk you will step out of your idolatry (that is, your worship of your own fallen mind's ability to determine what is truth from God) onto any sliver of the ground of faith, I have - for the moment - concluded that you are only interested in word games; and I am not playing.
    You are hiding behind your own blockades and will not continue to have dialogue. You can only accept your belief which does not come through reasoning, but some sort of revelation or gut feeling.


    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    That said, I recognise that you are in the grip of spiritual powers which affect your ability to reason with a clear mind, although it will appear to you that you are undeniably 'right' about your dterminations, no matter how far off God's truth you are pitching your tent.
    What spiritual powers are you talking about? Explain what they are (if you can). You appear to have pitched your tent on the moon. You are not speaking in a down-to-earth manner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    And this is where what I explained to Richard about 'desires of the heart, has the potential to come to your rescue. Because, if like Timmy described, you are willing - like Peter and the disciples - to give up everything - even your long-cherished theology - to KNOW Him - like Paul, calling all previous 'gain', as good as dung - you should be able to start wriggling out of the grip of what the Bible calls 'devils' or 'foreign gods', with no loss of face before God - if you WANT to.
    I am "earnestly contending the faith that was once delivered unto the saints" (Jude). I shall not lose face to you or my maker for defending his word. What you are doing? All you can do is proclaim I have some demon or devil. That is not brotherly, or sisterly in Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Of course there will be casualties. Your pride, your popularity, perhaps; a loss of self-image as it pertains to your desire to be pleasing to others whose respect you think you need, or hitherto, have craved; and you may well think you are going mad, whereas you will, in fact, be gaining God's definition of sanity; those pointers and more, will indicate you are heading in the right direction if you have begun to count the knowledge of God as the only prize worth having.
    Charisma, please take note of God's word about his people, who should have known better. (Hosea 4:6) My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:Do not accuse me of not having knowledge or having faith in God or Jesus. I am not perfect and never claim to be. How can you be so sure you have a perfect knowledge by which you are condemning me and many others?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    So, to conclude; I am not interested in your gift for side-stepping reality, your rhetoric , or your sense of umbrage; nor in discussion of superficial technicalities which act as avoidance tactics to keep you fom the agonies and the ecstacies of real relationship with God Himself.
    Unfortunately, as much as I would like to communicate with you, your own rhetoric makes no sense to me. You will not reason with a brother-in-Christ; preferring to reject someone who holds God's word as precious and the only words that give us life in God's Kingdom to come. Your refusal to have dialogue, is only accepted by the fact that I have to accept you are incapable of reasoning and discussing these things. Your posts to Richard and anyone else, is not going to get you very far, except to gratify yourself. Maybe you might like to think how you might be doing Jesus and God a disservice by the attitude you are taking towards brethren and sisters in Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    If you are willing to desire for yourself what God desires for you, you will start reading the Bible differently; you will hunt God down because your life depends on being found by Him, and you will begin to stop treating scripture like box of ping-pong balls which exist merely for your religious entertainment. in fact, you will actually pray to God for deliverance from every ounce of reigiousness which keeps you cut off from the relationship He desires with you.
    How do you know, this is not want God wants me to do? We all have our work to do in the separate areas of God's vineyard. I have to (1 Peter 3:15); be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: Are you not doing the same in your own way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Now.... the foregoing is well and truly enough about you. It is time to focus on what God actually says, without fear or favour to men who hold any alternative filter (such as a different denominational bias, or 'science') for judging the word of GOD and His righteousness.

    His righteousness flows from the tree of life, Jesus Christ. Man's righteousness flows from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the tree of death.
    You need to explain this to me. Unless you can explain it to me, you are not teaching me anything. You want me to accept your ideas, so you first have to explain your ideas and how you came to them .

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    What I have written is the answer to your question which I addressed in the first paragraph. My reply is not up for discussion - at least, not with me.
    And so you will not explain what you have written, which I do not understand. I did not see the first part of your reply was answering any of my questions, and you were making a statement/judgement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    May God bless you as you begin to kick over the traces of all the error by which you are bound to many false and worthless religious constructs.
    What about your own religious constructs? You do not recognize you have any. I can only understand where you are coming from, if you can explain things to me. You have not backed up anything you say. Quoting a verse without giving an explanation of the verse when asked, helps nobody.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    If you are dead in Christ (Romans 6:3), then you are released from your past in its entirety. If you are still battling, then hasten to the cross and die in Him. That will include your mind, which may begin to be renewed as you read scripture free from your own ideas.
    Have you been baptized? I hope you have. You know Romans 6. I am reading God's word as you do and I get understanding. You take my understanding as my ideas. I am not trying our ideas. How do I know that your understanding is not your own ideas? Unless you explain how you reason things out, you cannot expect me to accept blindly what you say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Let me say very clearly: your idea that a man (Jesus Christ) became God after he died, is no different than what many pagans believe about their gods.
    It is not "my idea". There are ten's of thousands of intelligent minds, which can reason as I do and have come to the same conclusion. Are you calling those brethren and sisters in Christ; pagans? How can you be so self-righteous and call your brothers and sisters pagans? I accept you have a simple understanding of God's word, even though you have spent many years reading the Bible or some peculiar version of the Bible. The teaching of Jesus is meant so that a person can accept what the Bible says, like a child. The basics of faith and belief are simple. All we have to do is agree the simple and plain teaching. What you have done is start a thread that is anything but simple. For starters, you are inviting replies on the subject of explaining what sin is. You have stirred up a can of worms by the title you have given to this thread. My question is; What is "Original Sin"? What is the difference between what is taught in the Old Testament and what is taught in the New Testament, which you have specifically labelled as "Christian". You might be refuting it, or are you? I have given my explanation of sin as I understand this from God's word. I can do no more.


    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Do you understand (any of what I've written)?

    If you don't understand, you may answer with the word, 'No'. Feel free to ask a question - but only if you want an answer.

    Otherwise you may answer 'Yes'.
    I understand a little. I have replied to let you know where you have to explain what you mean. I do not know what the point of asking a question is, unless you answer me. I have asked you three specific questions in my previous reply to you (and there were more questions which I did not ask you to answer, but are there nevertheless to be answered). You have lots to answer in this reply. It is up to you whether you want to continue in dialogue. I will do my best to explain to you why I have my hope and beliefs which are all centred on God's word, but are you rejecting my explanations without reason. You have to state your reasons, so I can agree with you or disagree and so the discussion continues until exhausted or we reach agreement. I only wish you would begin to reason and start to open your own mind as you tell me to do. God's word is more precious than rubies. Spiritual riches can be gleaned every time we read the Bible and think about it deeply.

    All the best
    David

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