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  1. #21
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    w/o a proof reading this is sent.

    Howya Mystical?

    Amused to see you write on this thread covering Augustine -vs- Palagianism.

    FYI: This post is moreso explanatory, yet intent to stir up further searching is hardly lacking. Our manner of posting usually is to point one to look further, perhaps at times seeming offensive, yet should any choose to argue without seeking further, it is usually our way dealing with non-progressive inconsistency by ending conversation then and there.

    Between Eloheinu, family stuff, work, friends, this new flood of learning about hypocrisy in relation to "Effective Prayer", and the aeronautical with also the electromagnetic experimentations, this plate is already full. Yet there is one less thing being pursued at least: Saint Augustine's book ("City of God") was ceased with FTTB, as his work convolutes clarity because he often mixes up the ethical with metaphysics.


    It's wondered that since the emphasis ended with Paul you ran with commenting about this? Your comments were edited toward what concerns you with sentences rearranged to address thoughts congruent.

    You ready?

    Here goes...
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystical
    Paul and his Pauline doctrine is really NOT Christian per se.... So all this talk of Pauline New Covenant grace-based salvation by faith - is hoc os pocos est! So the questions of sin or no sin based on Paul's writings solely is not good theology. However, this topic has been splitting Christians for generations and I doubt it will be resolved here.
    By the Western mode of scriptural exegesis, a person can only see a part of the truth, and will accordingly deduce misconceptions about these Hebrew scriptures, then usually fill in the blank spaces which are actually a result of misinterpreting in the first place. Those who do this come up with a cut and paste creation. There results: patchy spots, things that make no sense, holes in various places, and stuff they call mysteries (but, really are self-created confusion) ...and of necessity, certain portions of the Bible are ignored or counted as no longer valid just so their own misconstrued interpretations appear to somehow make sense to them.

    Prophecy does not primarily mean "to fortell" events to occur, and a true understanding of definition will cause one to understand that there is not one portion of the Bible that is not prophecy, especially Torah..and all prophecy of a foretelling nature is known to perpetually repeat itself. So any date setter, (whether about events that have already occurred, or those that have not yet occurred) is always wrong.
    (The very first thread i ever posted to here was about Mt. 24, and the people writing at that point in time were so convinced they already knew what it meant, even though Richard inquired a bit about this different perspective, i just quit with entering into discussion about it anymore at all. Since they all (with various opinions) already knew, what could be shown that they would listen to?)

    So, for example, we have many thinking the Bible completely historical...and it is, but not in the Western sense of the word, as if it always moves from point a to b, or even considers explaining things through the eyes of graeco-roman logic or Hellenistic thinking. It is neither a scientific treatise, nor a mathemagical compilation.

    No no-no-no NO!!!

    The whole Bible is Jewish in content.
    Hebrew thought is Oriental.
    Christianity is an Eastern religion, and Western Protestantism is a far cry from the first century Primitive Church. What existed before the Roman state stepped in disallowing and advancing only what the state approved is not what we see today.

    If the Bible will be interpreted correctly, we must look at it like those in the Bible, and those who wrote about Tanakh in it's pages (the prophets and apostles), and the approach taken toward it by the people of those days. (Even current Rabbinic Judaism, no matter how Orthodox, is not following what the ancients or our progenitors understood to do as tradition after tradition replaced the ancient paths.)

    Jesus while on Earth was a Jewish Rabbi, as was Saul (from the school of Hillel led by his grandson Gamaliel.)

    Under the Western influences of gnosticism infiltrating the church, as far as i can tell, beginning with Philo of Alexandria, up to currently, so many perversions and misconceptions about what the Bible actually says and means are far too many to even list. (This is why you do not find me even bothering to deal with any thread that is not steering toward a cogent view of the Bible.)

    I am not so sure you correctly understand what Rabbi Shaul of Tarsus, Paul, is actually saying. Case in point, compared with what you are assuming, reconcile his words in I Corinthians 7.19: ”Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping the mitzvot of God.”

    There is a huge misconception about "by grace are you saved through faith" and many a false teacher has been spreading this deception.
    (It is not here now a matter to argue whether these false teachers are heretics, apostate, or decieved.)

    It's that word "faith". In Archaic Hebrew it's root word is "amunah". In Koiné Greek it is "pistis". What many ignore is it's dual meaning in every instance of use in both originating languages. That English word translated "FAITH" means "FAITH AND FAITHFULNESS" simultaneously. (This is why you can catch me usually using this word written as either faith(fulness) or faithfulness.) The fact remains, if in your heart you do believe (in this way), it is not merely a belief onto doing, but rather comprises every aspect of our existence: imagination, hope, communion, consciousness, perception, reflection, contemplation, feelings, reasoning, intuition, intention, etc, and when anyone is in faith, it become so very obviously physically apparent by whatever we do and whenever we speak--(which says much about many who merely think the Bible is true in their heads and claim they are Christians because of this).

    Without the time currently, it is not really wished to rehash this issue again, even though it has not been grappled through here on B.W.F.A.™.

    We are all blind until Adonai opens our eyes. We are all sick, until HaShem Rapha heals us. We are all lame until we walk in the spirit of Ha' Maschiach...

    ...but to apply Western logic and hermeneutics to any book written from an Eastern Oriental mindset is doing yourself and the text injustice. Doing this, anyone can come up with their own wrong conclusions without the help of anyone else.

    If you will begin to gain a more appropriate perspective from the Timmy's POV, and if you are interested, it is wished you will read through (at least Timmy's comments) on a thread beginning right here. This is just a starting point to more clearly understanding Paul in relation to other writers in the B'rit Hadasha (NT).

    Contrary to majority rule, or your idea of "hocus pocus", the midrash Paul offers in his epistles is not a contradiction to what any others Bible writers were inspired to write. In fact, if you look at Stephen's message and subsequent stoning, from Acts 7.1 to 8.1, you can see Paul was chosen to carry on where Stephen ended. The revelation Paul received is a continuation of what he was responsible for thinking he would put a full stop to then and there. If a person thinks faith is not something substantial and entitling hope (see: James and Heb. 11:1-3, 6), that person does not understand that faith without works is dead.

    Understanding faith as defined above, there is no grace without faithfulness...and people don't really know what grace actually means, even though royalty is still deferred to as "Your Grace".

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystical
    Now, old Testament theology v/s New Testament theology in my opinion does not exist since Jesus to be a vaild SAVIOUR must be the OT IHVH with NO new gospel whatsoever! The fact that Jesus is qouted as saying, "Search the Scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life, AND THESE ARE THEY which testify of ME!" - Clearly is a throw-back to the IHVH GOD Model which Jesus is claiming as His own! There can be no "salvation" from sin apart from the sanctuary service model of the Levitical service; eventhough Jesus calls Himself a priest after the order of Melchizedek - which some scholars argue for a scribble deviation on the part of the Masoretic text development. ( Abraham and Melchizedek: Scribal Activity of Second Temple Times ..., Volume 23// http://books.google.com/books?id=kBB...page&q&f=false )
    It really is not a new covenant in the sense of something different. It is new in the sense of Levitical Ordinances being a backdrop, the type, the shadow of the real; Yeshua being the anti-type, the verification validating the final and complete enactment of all previous blood covenants God has made with men--(something the proxy sacrifice of animals could never do).

    On this thread, we are talking about whether or not a person has the nature to sin, and whether or not of his own choosing anyone can do God ordained right(eous actions) if they do or do not have this nature to sin.

    What you have brought up concerning Torah Temple Ordinances takes us one step further in the appropriate direction. David too, has given a peek further in that direction.

    (i owe David a reply or three so he's next.)

    It is agreed that anyone who relies solely on any certain time period text, such as Paul's writings, ignoring or considering invalid any other part of scripture does not understand what they think they know. On this wise, anyone who cannot find how Paul's teachings fit right in with and agree with everything else does not understand what they think they know.


    On a final note, the pages of that book preview you offered were read a couple of times. From what was read, authorship in several ways admits to an intended skeptically negative approach as well as saying the texts premises and conclusions are assumptions. The simple fact that other various possibilities are not explored,--such as what is not known, or the Targum by one of Paul's classmates, (Anklios<--a second Temple Rabbi as well)--along with what the author admits, makes this book questionable at best. (It's wondered if that text will still be around after 3,500 more years.)

    Shalom,

    þœ

    p.s. Y-eraz ago, with the pseudonym of "znujeeL~", the Timmy used to sign off sometimes with "Denasté: YOU WATCH YOUR BACK and i'll watch mine!"
    Last edited by Timmy; 08-27-2013 at 08:21 PM.
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

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