Google Ads

Google Ads

Bible Wheel Book

Google Ads

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 50
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    776

    The 'Christian' doctrine of Original Sin refuted

    Although the following contains quite a few scriptures, I think it belongs in this forum rather than 'Biblical Studies' or 'Hermeneutics and Theology'.

    This is not a dissonance-free experience, but I think it exposes some fallacies held by Christians, including myself. Enjoy!


    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Tellus
    Posts
    741
    Why bad things happen
    to people
    who did not intention anything
    To enact their calamity:






    Charis,

    It is hoped you are not eating the whole meal served on your above forwarded video about original sin.

    Though there has been an ever steady dissonance against extreme Traducianism, it does hold much merit.

    Only watched 20 minutes and stopped knowing he has not fully explored this issue, as well as what he says goes against what original Bible manuscripts reveal...
    ..and Mr. Skinski has conveniently eluded such passages of scripture which detail the meaning of several of the verses he used, providing his own definition instead of keeping answers within scriptural confines.
    He is well on his way to strarting yet another kultus within the Xian genre.
    (Note particularily Rom. 5.12 in relation to some verses he avoids, such as:
    Psalm 55.5 Behold, I was shaped in iniquity; and my mother conceived me in sin.
    or
    James 1.15 Then when lust has conceived, it brings sin:and sin, when it is finished, brings death.
    (There's more, but these should clearly enough contradicting his eigesis.)

    This fellow has not spent time studying either Greek or Hebrew.

    For another example, the way he defines soul is complete nonsense. Soul is not something one possesses but is the outward life expression resulting from what comes straight from the
    heart=
    memory/imagination &
    emotion/attitude&
    perception-->thought-->reasoning-->intention.
    Soul is the volition of the heart.

    Though there are many things St. Augustine did not get right, this guy on this video has no room to speak. He needs to include that after revealing St. Augustine could not read Koiné, that he himself does not understand Latin, Greek, or Hebrew.

    There are six different Greek words for sin, five of which represent differing aspects of an action (verb). The other word for sin in Greek is a noun, and is used in reference to the sensory human nature to satisfy our carcass.

    In Genesis we find Elohim breathed into Adamah the breath of [note the plurality]-->liVES, and not only his own, and he BECAME a living experssion (aka: soul).

    Though there is no transfer from one generation to the next of an individual's soul life, genetically, what is in ones heart is passed from one generation to the next, and through recombinance, only God, and perhaps a quite astute genetic engineer, would be able to tell whether these traits could result as dominant or recessive.

    Hope these things are sufficient to show this guys message is convoluted to say the least.

    He is wrong defining concupiscence though he is spot on about lust = from desire to passion, as in temptation is not sin; yet, there is a very fine line when temptation does become sin. Consider Jesus' words about commiting adultery in you heart and being guilty of the act itself in Mt. 5. (The issue is, if all the conditions were conviently ameniable, whould you do whatever the sin is.

    Sin is nothing more than fulfilling good God created desires in ways God says are not good.


    Shabbat Shalom,

    Timmy

    p.s. Might go back and watch the rest later tonight...but it is doubtful.
    Last edited by Timmy; 08-17-2013 at 08:08 AM.
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    776
    Hi Timmy,

    Your thoughts are gratefully received, and I agree there would be much work to be done to straighten out the glitches in the thinking. Having conversed a little by text with the narrator, I know he is open to being challenged with a truer explanation. I'm sure he would hear you out most graciously.

    The most simple explanation of his conclusions though, are that they are bounced of false doctrine rather than the word, as you astutely observed.

    Charis,

    It is hoped you are not eating the whole meal served on your above forwarded video about original sin.
    No, but, I think there are scraps of truth which are worthy of attention, such as Augustine's previous religious affiliations.

    It is a while since I watched it all, and I'd need to watch it again to pick out the parts I had a little fresh revelation about afterwards. All I can remember at the moment, is that one point is about Adam (which I disagree) and another is about Jesus. They are different, but related to whether any person (since the fall) can be born free from sin, and if they can what that means for the rest of the thesis. He follows Mike DeSario's thinking. (youtube)

    On a positive note (if that may be permitted) I think he is on to a truth in regard to a proper understanding of repentance, as well as a proper repenting.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Tellus
    Posts
    741
    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Timmy...
    ...All I can remember at the moment, is that one point is about Adam (which I disagree) and another is about Jesus. They are different, but related to whether any person (since the fall) can be born free from sin, and if they can what that means for the rest of the thesis. He follows Mike DeSario's thinking. (youtube)

    ... I think he is on to a truth in regard to a proper understanding of repentance, as well as a proper repenting.
    Hi Charis,

    Ok, you got me curious.

    I'll watch it through and check out DeSario, too.

    Thanks,

    Timmy
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    776
    I'm going to post you some links in a PM that are related to this, and to a more recent discovery which I suspect will interest you not a little.


    About the doctrine that we are born without sin, I've heard it sliced a couple of ways before, but the Augustine video above is the most convincing so far.


    And then I'm going to sleep ....
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    15,146
    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Although the following contains quite a few scriptures, I think it belongs in this forum rather than 'Biblical Studies' or 'Hermeneutics and Theology'.

    This is not a dissonance-free experience, but I think it exposes some fallacies held by Christians, including myself. Enjoy!


    youtube;KVQ1t5i058Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVQ1t5i058Q
    Wow - that guy has set himself up as the ultimate judge over all Christian doctrine. Amazing. Thanks for the link Charisma. That website standthegap.org is a perfect example of how the convoluted, confused, and contradictory teachings of the Bible make it utterly useless as a guide. The most devout, serious, studious, faithful, believing interpreters come to diametrically opposed conclusions on nearly every topic! It would be hilarious if it were not so pathetic, given how the Bible has destroyed so many lives by leading believers into delusion. The guy you linked has a list of 24 "heretics" that he refutes because they came to different conclusions than his. And each of them would surely conclude that he's the heretic, and they would prove it with a mountain of Bible verses! What a sad joke! Here's his list:

    1. John Piper
    2. Charles Spurgeon
    3. John MacArthur
    4. DL Moody
    5. Ed Young
    6. John Calvin, Calvin 2
    7. John Ankerberg
    8. Martin Luther
    9. Joel Osteen
    10. Dr Barnhouse
    11. Craig Laurie
    12. Erwin Lutzer
    13. Mark Driscoll
    14. Max Lucado
    15. Josh McDowell
    16. Mike Fabarez
    17. RC Sproul
    18. Pat Robertson
    19. Charles Swindoll
    20. Rick Warren More on Warren
    21. Richard Warmack
    22. Paul Washer
    23. Ray Comfort
    24. Charles Stanley
    25. Billy Graham

    The really interesting thing about his list is that it spans the whole Christian spectrum. It contains Calvinists and Arminians, Fundamentalists and Liberals. Current and past pop teachers with audiences in the millions and classic teachers accepted by the vast majority of Christians as the most reliable and trustworthy of all preachers, such as Charles Spurgeon. He sets himself and his idiosyncratic doctrines above all. Amazing. Truly amazing how religion corrupts the mind and deludes people into thinking they alone have the very "truth of God."

    The true pathos of his position is seen in his site rank. His site ranks at about the 25 millionth on the web. That's essentially equivalent to zero. And he appears to be a "lone wolf" and a "loose cannon" because he doesn't have any quotes from any other living authors who confirm his conclusions. This is so typical of the delude religious believer who has been taught to despise truth in favor of private "intuitions" that are interpreted as the "Holy Spirit" that confirm whatever fantasy happens to flutter through the undisciplined mind of believers.

    Thanks again for sharing this insight into the nature of the Bible and the mind of the believers.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    776
    Hi Richard,

    At least my friend is diligently seeking the Lord through His word, as he works through all the false doctrine which has afflicted his soul over the years when he just accepted what he was being told by so-called spiritual superiors.

    He's also made a personal decision to co-operate with God rather than drift along in a state of separation from Him, and he's prepared to live with the consequences of choosing to cease from sin (as the Bible defines it). In fact, he understands a good deal more than the average Christian, in regard to what being a Christian really means.

    My experience, in general, of people who genuinely turn to God with their whole heart as he as done, is that God leads them out of their 'delusions' because they have a chosen to receive a love of the truth, and they take pleasure in righteousness as God defines it.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    15,146
    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Richard,

    At least my friend is diligently seeking the Lord through His word, as he works through all the false doctrine which has afflicted his soul over the years when he just accepted what he was being told by so-called spiritual superiors.

    He's also made a personal decision to co-operate with God rather than drift along in a state of separation from Him, and he's prepared to live with the consequences of choosing to cease from sin (as the Bible defines it). In fact, he understands a good deal more than the average Christian, in regard to what being a Christian really means.

    My experience, in general, of people who genuinely turn to God with their whole heart as he as done, is that God leads them out of their 'delusions' because they have a chosen to receive a love of the truth, and they take pleasure in righteousness as God defines it.
    Hey there Charisma,

    When you refer to him as "my friend" are you saying that you know him personally?

    I understand that you think it is good that he is "diligently seeking the Lord through His word." A Muslim would say the same thing if he were studying the Quran. But I think you missed my point. If the Bible is so bloody confused that every person must sift through mountains of "false doctrines" that are accepted as God's Own Truth by the vast majority of Christians, then how could you hope to find the truth yourself? You are just one person with limited time and mental resources like all the other people who came to false conclusions. So how could anyone have any confidence that they got it right if the vast majority of the most sincere believers all got it wrong? And they didn't just get it wrong in one way, they all got it wrong in a thousand different ways because the books is so bloody confused that you can interpret the same words in a dozen different ways! Don't you think this might indicate a problem with the Book and its Author?

    How could anyone hope to ever discover the real truth? Even if you are as faithful as possible you could still make the same mistakes as the "false teachers" who by every indication are every bit as "sincere" as all the others.

    Your idea that God leads them out of their delusions contains an implicit assertion that you believe you are qualified to JUDGE who has "God's truth" and who does not. That's exactly what all the "false teachers" think about themselves! Suppose for a moment that you were one of the false teachers in his list. You were a famous preacher hailed by millions as a faithful teacher like Charles Spurgeon ... how would you know if you were wrong? Don't you get it? All those "false teachers" are totally convinced that they are totally committed to God, just like you and your friend! So why should you think that you are more sincere than Billy Graham?

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    15,146

    Is historical Christianity the BEAST religion?

    I found this interesting article on the standingthegap.org site: The Mark of the Beast: which condemns every form of the "ENTIRE professing Christian establishment" -

    Quote Originally Posted by standthegap.org
    What you need to understand clearly is that the Present day church System is already under the control of the Beast. But the Beast is NOT some Worldly dictator as everyone is suspecting. Actually the Beast John was shown in Rev13 is the Church System gone fully apostate. It’s not merely the Catholic System as many have identified over the years, but the ENTIRE professing Christian religious establishment, all preaching the Message of the Beast!

    John was also shown an IMAGE created by the Beast that lives and breaths and causes everyone (in the System) to bow down to it in Worship and ‘Receive’ a Mark on the Right hand or Forehead. This IMAGE has the appearance of a Lamb but speaks the language of the Dragon through an Army of false teachers convinced that the IMAGE they have created is really Jesus Christ! This False Jesus is the focal point of Present day professing Christianity. What He represents to them is the Fallacy of Reformed theology.
    Compare this with these words from the founder of the Mormon cult:

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Smith, Jr.
    My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right—and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight .... He again forbade me to join with any of them (Joseph Smith 2:18-20).
    This exemplifies the divisive nature of religion. Everyone makes up their own versions and says everyone else is a heretic. I don't understand how anyone could believe any of it, with so many believers condemning all other believers as heretics! Is this really the "work of God'? Is he really the author of such confusion?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Tellus
    Posts
    741
    Disclaimer: Some of the following is subject to change and forms a mere opinion.


    Skinski appears to have refuted nothing.

    Tell me what i am not understanding if you see something Charis.

    What do you mean by "the most convincing" so far?
    It is a one sided argument completely ignoring counterpoints.

    He has taken the writing of one post Nicean sect of Catholicism, amplified it, claiming this is the way of the church. He is talking about one segment of Catholicism and has hardly focused in on Platonism or Manicheanism; and rather convolutes his own point in so doing.

    He did use two scriptures previously posted by Timmy (Jas and Mt), however he wrests them from context, even as he has done with St. Augustine.

    He needs to quit thinking he is teaching anything and should sit and listen first.

    He needs to not talk about what he does not understand, giving Armenianism and Calvinism only glancing blows then moving on.

    It is wondered how you might think he is coming to truth expositing pseudo-truths, or half-sided at best???

    Platonism or Manicheanism is by no stretch of the imagination nearly as influential on current religious practices in organized Xendumb and reasonings therefrom so much as Aristotlean philosophy has permeated most everything.(as if Mithraic influences, the triple godess, or Isis/Apophis/Osirius were not enough already.

    Suggested is that Skinski begin with a work by Francis Schaeffer called ”How Should We Then Live".

    Recalling one other point just now: from near the 20 min mark on his vid, it was noted he has also assumed sin is not (individuated) transgression<--(even though the Hebrew word and context of the passage used is singular in what he cites)--but collective, but how could he not, knowing he does not trust that in Adam all have sinned as clarified in Romans 5-or is intentionally mixing up things:that's doubtful. As well, his past-to-present-tense claim towards Paul's conversion is completely assumed concerning Romans 6-8 because this is not as it is written in the Greek.

    He would do best focusing on James where it talks about the tongue setting on fire the course of nature, and this is from hell ...and that not many should be teachers (around ch. 3)...WHY?

    He comes to some right conclusions, but they are lopsided.

    Do you understand that not having a nature that is called sin by Paul, for starters, there is neither the need for salvation or Jesus coming either the first or second time? To put it another way, why would anyone need to be saved from sin is they were not in sin. If sin is only faulty actions, there is no need to be changed from what we are, but only from what we do...or is there some other reason Yesua says that to follow Him, you must deny yourself, take upon yourself your own execution, and then walk His way?


    FROM PMs

    These things about the Ark and Gogatha were already known from scripture and it is good to see conformation of that.

    Is conduit whom?

    There is not yet found disagreement with Scott's blog spot, but it has not been read that far into just yet (2 posts).

    Ron is good advertising.


    Waka waka eh eh<--well, trying to at least,

    ޜ

    P.s. It is quite doubtful there will be much time for any interaction on the web, aside from B.W.F.A.™...besides, i just began reading the first of over 900 pages of a book called, "The City of God" by Saint Augustine. Also, an intermittent one i chance arguing with (penpal: Johnny Mac) is pressing that we again cover pre -vs- post trib resurrection scenarios.
    Last edited by Timmy; 08-20-2013 at 08:38 AM.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may edit your posts
  •