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  1. #31
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    Hi Timmy,

    King Dawid seeking after God's heart obeyed God's rulings.
    He went through the Priest to access God and likewise highly regarded His prophets. For all we know, it could have been Samuel or Nathan revealing many things.
    Okay.

    The Psalms are recognized as "of" David, and not neccessarily "by" him, though we know he wrote them
    .

    I know that some of the Psalms are not 'by' David, but surely we can take from both Peter and Paul, that some of those speaking of Messiah, were indeed his?
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  2. #32
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    Read what was written again in my previous post.

    How is this untrue?
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  3. #33
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    Hi Timmy,

    How is this untrue?
    Well, it seems that we will never know whether God gave His words directly to David, even though the apostles credited him with them.

    Is this your point?
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Timmy,



    Well, it seems that we will never know whether God gave His words directly to David, even though the apostles credited him with them.

    Is this your point?
    Kinda'.

    David did write them.
    God operates within the parameters he deigns. David was annointed and prophecied in the Psallms, and still He gave precedence to God's ordination of His structure of government He instructed.

    Even if David may have recieved certain prophecies himself, they were confirmed by the prophet and priest.

    Why we have idiots today saying their message is from God, whether by prophecy, teaching, discrenment of spirits, a word of wisdom, or a word of knowledge, yet these things are found false is the stupidity of people assuming a notion opposed to the fact that what applied in King David's day and earlier applies today as well, that ""...by two or three witnesses let everything be established..."
    Last edited by Timmy; 05-09-2014 at 03:21 PM. Reason: last sentence corrected in red
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post

    Why we have idiots today saying their message is from God, whether by prophecy, teaching, discrenment of spirits, a word of wisdom, or a word of knowledge, yet these things are found false is the stupidity of people assuming what applied in King David's day and earlier applies today as well,
    Hello Timmy

    I believe faith does work miracles, even if it is YHWH who is responding to a person's faith and working that miracle by his power (Holy Spirit).

    The Holy Spirit was something that appeared to be given to Jesus in that God worked the miracles through Jesus. The Holy Spirit was also given to the disciples before and at Pentecost (but in limited measure). The Holy Spirit (in limited measure) could be passed on by the laying on of hands of the disciples, although that appears to have been for a limited period in the first century and did not continue for all time.
    There are those who claim to have the Holy Spirit today, but I would disagree. I am not saying they do not have the spirit of God, or that they do not have a strong faith. I do not see it as them possessing the Holy Spirit.

    I have said before that I do not posses the Holy Spirit. I do not compare myself the apostle Paul, but like he said when making a judgement about a wife's position; (1 Cor 7:40) ... and I think also that I have the Spirit of God.
    Paul does not appear to be speaking about having the Holy Spirit; more like having the "thinking of God".

    Having the mind of Christ, as Paul exhorts us to have, is to have Christ's thinking in us. In that sense, it is one way to understand how we have the Spirit of Christ in us or the Spirit of God in us. That is one way of understanding the phrase; (John 14:23) we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


    What are your thoughts about this?



    Shalom
    David

  6. #36
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    Hi David,

    As a starting point to your above post now being responded to, you quoted a portion of the final statement (i just corrected) in post #34. The correction is in red there to show where i goofed up.



    You will be responded to what you wrote anyway, though what was quoted as my words stands corrected. This appropriate sentence will be used as what was intended instead of what should be that first quote from your post to Timmy (below).

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy
    Why we have idiots today saying their message is from God, whether by prophecy, teaching, discrenment of spirits, a word of wisdom, or a word of knowledge, yet these things are found false is the stupidity of people assuming a notion opposed to the fact that what applied in King David's day and earlier applies today as well...
    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Timmy

    I believe faith does work miracles, even if it is YHWH who is responding to a person's faith and working that miracle by his power (Holy Spirit).
    Actually, when there are true miracles it is not even an issue of the individuals faith, as the faith needed for miracles comes only by and through Jesus. i speak from experience. If one called complete reliance upon God for the deliverance to be that faith, it is short-sighted. (see Gal. 2.20 regarding exactly what is meant here.)

    Quote Originally Posted by David M.
    The Holy Spirit was something that appeared to be given to Jesus in that God worked the miracles through Jesus. The Holy Spirit was also given to the disciples before and at Pentecost (but in limited measure). The Holy Spirit (in limited measure) could be passed on by the laying on of hands of the disciples, although that appears to have been for a limited period in the first century and did not continue for all time.
    There are those who claim to have the Holy Spirit today, but I would disagree. I am not saying they do not have the spirit of God, or that they do not have a strong faith. I do not see it as them possessing the Holy Spirit.
    i see it a little differently, but yeah, nobody of Adam's seed possesses the Holy Spirit.

    Think about this.
    "Holy" is a defining adjective to the impersonal noun "Spirit".

    This being the case, consider that Jesus is referred to as the Holy One of Y'israel by True Israelites.
    Demons called Him the Holy One of God. Though he commanded them (sometimes to just shut up) Jesus never denied this title.
    Throughout Isaiah, God gives this name to both Himself and his "suffering servant."

    In the Greek, this Spirit of the Holy [One] is refered to as both him and it. The key relating how this can be so is Midrash of John 14.

    The Holy Spirit, being Jesus and the Father together as one is who regenerates those who experience the Faith and Zoe of Jesus.

    Jesus worked one miracle in particular before He was ever baptized, David.

    I have said before that I do not posess the Holy Spirit. I do not compare myself the apostle Paul, but like he said when making a judgement about a wife's position; (1 Cor 7:40) ... and I think also that I have the Spirit of God.
    Paul does not appear to be speaking about having the Holy Spirit; more like having the "thinking of God".
    Paul is being sarcastic with the Corinthians in writing that. The Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit. Only the Father and the Son are Holy.

    Having the mind of Christ, as Paul exhorts us to have, is to have Christ's thinking in us. In that sense, it is one way to understand how we have the Spirit of Christ in us or the Spirit of God in us. That is one way of understanding the phrase; (John 14:23) we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
    It is far more than just rational thought. The word is "nõus" for mind, thinking you are refferring to 1 Cor. 2.16? It is an "understanding based upon thoughts and intentions with associated feelings out from them".

    That is the way to understand the word "mind" in that reference. Christ relative to this is "God's Annointed One". This is by the Spirit of the Lord Paul refers to in his letters/epistles (1 Cor. 6.17/ 2 Cor. 3.17) who is the Holy Spirit.


    What are your thoughts about this?
    You just read the beginning...and the Holy Spirit possesses all who are more or less depending daily on Yeshua: submitting in this "attitude" and "mind" of Yeshua to accordingly becoming filled with His Holy Spirit--ZOE:God's Life and Nature--becoming themselves part of Him.

    Paul does--(as do all the Apostles)--command all who are in Christ, to grow in Him, and so "...be being stimulated-and-filled with the [Holy] Spirit."(see: Eph. 5.15-18/ Prov. 23.19-23)

    David, God is not divided. God is one. He is His Spirit, and through the same He expresses Himself via various appearances of (physical) objectivities we humans can come to comprehend only a dim view of who He is.

    His Christ Jesus is the only direct physical representation and manifestation of God to this Earth. Because Jesus fills all in all, it is impossible to actually become relational with Him and comprehend God by any other means. Jesus is the only Way.

    Please think these things through before you write back about this. God shall give you a better glimpse of Himself, if you will instead of reasoning and rationalizing these things out without scriptural proof, find correlative scriptures related to what is just beginning to be shown.

    There is nothing you might surmise that can prove anything other than what is being experienced by me in this, as there is nothing about this that contradicts His Sh'kinah--whether this happens through what is Written or His Life poured out through me for others wholeness, be that miracle or restoration/reconciliation by any other means: there is no contradiction.

    As well, by what you have related on forum, it is quite clear that the Holy Spirit has yet to be directing you into all truth...and so daily experience the "dunamis" of Jesus "pistis".

    You cannot clutch onto mythos calling it logos expecting God to be any party with that.

    (Read John 16.1-15)
    Last edited by Timmy; 05-09-2014 at 08:39 PM.
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  7. #37
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    Hi again David!

    Reading through post #36 again, one potion rilly struck me wrong. It's supposed that reading it through so quick the first time and blabbering back answers relative to the flow it may have been overlooked, though itcould be it's own post. It was this:
    Quote Originally Posted by David
    The Holy Spirit was something that appeared to be given to Jesus in that God worked the miracles through Jesus. The Holy Spirit was also given to the disciples before and at Pentecost (but in limited measure). The Holy Spirit (in limited measure) could be passed on by the laying on of hands of the disciples, although that appears to have been for a limited period in the first century and did not continue for all time.
    There are those who claim to have the Holy Spirit today, but I would disagree. I am not saying they do not have the spirit of God, or that they do not have a strong faith. I do not see it as them possessing the Holy Spirit.
    You say the Holy Spirit in limited measure for Jesus disciples/apostles and the idea that this was limited to laying on hands after Pentecost, but only for a limited time?

    Just curious if what teaching(s) you follow has/(have) some basis in dispensationalism....noting a few of the Bibles you used as potential reference concerning John 1.15, and a few things you have said on forum also?2

    What is the difference betwen Spirit of God and the Spirit of holiness?

    ...and you say you believe about this or that.
    So, how does somebody believe something they have no experience concerning?
    Is it just assumptions until different ideas predominate?

    What you say you do not believe is self-determinism, isn't it?

    i sometimes wondering "i believes" and usually think, "ok, what else doesn't he believe...and why?"
    Do you feel like you need to trick other people or is that more of something that by outside influences you began doing that very young, and do not even worry about their afftes...or maybe you just don't even realize you ar doing that again...maybe even wondering if you are not even considering the potential effect from what you write?
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  8. #38
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    Hello Timmy
    Thank you for raising further questions. Answering these will help clarify my position and hope explain a little more why I said what I did. It also gives me the opportunity to correct anything that I might have said by mistake.

    I am not putting forth my thoughts as; this is what must be believed. I am sharing my belief as I have come to believe from my study and contemplation of these things. It is for everyone to come to their own decision and I would hope that decision is based on the best reasoning. If your reasoning is best, then I expect people to go along with what you say until such time as they find a better reason to change their mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Hi again David!

    Reading through post #36 again, one potion rilly struck me wrong. It's supposed that reading it through so quick the first time and blabbering back answers relative to the flow it may have been overlooked, though itcould be it's own post. It was this:You say the Holy Spirit in limited measure for Jesus disciples/apostles and the idea that this was limited to laying on hands after Pentecost, but only for a limited time?

    Just curious if what teaching(s) you follow has/(have) some basis in dispensationalism....noting a few of the Bibles you used as potential reference concerning John 1.15, and a few things you have said on forum also?2
    Regarding the limited measure of the Holy Spirit. I gave an instance when the disciples could not cast out a certain "demon". Jesus said it could only be cast out by much fasting and prayer. We know that Jesus fasted and was in almost constant prayer to his Heavenly Father and we are given that insight before he raises Lazarus from the dead.
    I just do not see the disciples performing the same number of miracles or types of miracles that Jesus performed. That is not to say the disciples could not raise the dead, which is perhaps the hardest miracle of all. It is very apparent that it was not anything the disciple knew how to do, but to call upon the name of YHWH to perform the miracle through them, the same as the miracles were performed through Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    What is the difference betwen Spirit of God and the Spirit of holiness?
    Holiness is an attribute of God, the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Holiness can be regarded as the same. If you want to define them separately, I am open to listening to how you explain this better.
    If we see holiness in someone else and that person influences us because of their holiness, that is the spirit (unseen force) that is communicated from one person to another. Influence, is what I consider to be Spirit. We influence other people by what we say, write, and demonstrate. If we do, speak or write evil things, that is communicating through the 'Spirit of Evil'. When we do any of those evil things, we are being the devil, or a satan to someone else. We do not have to associate evil thoughts to an external spiritual being that has no foundation in the Bible; not when these things are properly understood. This seems like work in progress.

    For the moment, I see that all evil thoughts originate in our minds. The seed for those thoughts can be external, such as in ways of communication I have described, and like when God said in his communication; "Do not...". That seed of communication began the thought in Eve; "Why not..." From then on, it was her reasoning that became her own lie which she believed. The serpent, the devil, the satan are all the same; they are in the mind of man as part of human nature. We are descendants of Adam with the same nature as Adam and Eve and we are under the same curse of death as Adam and Eve were. Only Jesus overcame human nature to remain sinless. Jesus died under the curse, what is now natural for the body to die, but God could not hold Jesus to the curse and so had to raise him from the dead.

    Without God, Jesus would have remained dead. Jesus is like us all, he was made from dust and would have gone back to dust. We are not made of any supernatural substance that we can say is the substance of God, who is outside and greater than the things which he created. That is my belief based on what I understand from God's word. If we are going to extemporize, all we know is that God made everything in the universe and that must have come from something that God has abundant supply of and has control over in order to make everything that has been detected, or not detected, in this universe. We should not waste too much time on things we do not know, but spend our time thinking about those things we know and the things which God has revealed to man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    ...and you say you believe about this or that.
    So, how does somebody believe something they have no experience concerning?
    I am basing my belief on what the word of God tells me. I cannot base my belief solely on what another person claims to have experienced or had a revelation of. That would have to be supported in some way. We know the prophets were given revelations, which were inspired by God through his Holy Spirit. Can you claim to have had such a revelation that the world should hear and accept?

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Is it just assumptions until different ideas predominate?
    Maybe. We can have ideas, but those ideas have to have some basis. I am basing my thoughts (ideas, if you want to term them as such) on the word of God. I will accept commentaries and dictionaries as study aids, but commentaries also have to be soundly based in the word of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    What you say you do not believe is self-determinism, isn't it?
    You tell me! Give me examples of what you mean, so that I can agree, or say why I do not agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    i sometimes wondering "i believes" and usually think, "ok, what else doesn't he believe...and why?"
    That should come in time. I do not expect you to have read every post of mine on this forum and you have probably missed things I have said. I do expect to have to explain myself again on something I have explained already to someone else. I should not have to explain the same again to the same person. I expect that person to have learned something from what I have said, or have learned something about me, in which case, we should not keep going over the same ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Do you feel like you need to trick other people or is that more of something that by outside influences you began doing that very young, and do not even worry about their afftes...or maybe you just don't even realize you ar doing that again...maybe even wondering if you are not even considering the potential effect from what you write?
    I am not out to trick anyone. That would be dishonest of me and that is the last thing I should be accused of. I do not accuse you of dishonesty, or anyone else for that matter, when for example, I quote anyone using any of the '38 Dishonest Tricks To Win An Argument'. That is a title I have borrowed and can be found on websites. People take that as a personal insult when I mention it. The fact is; I am guilty of the same, when I do not realize I am using any of those "dishonest tricks". Now I am aware of them, I try hard spot myself using them and so eliminate them from my argument. If you can point out when I am using a "dishonest trick", I will correct myself and it can be struck from the debate; just like in a court of law when the Judge overrules the defending lawyer, or the prosecutor.

    I am no master scholar. My research into understanding the Greek and Hebrew language behind the scripture is very basic. However, when I am presented with choices, I see all those choices as a possibility until further reasoning begins the process of elimination of some of those choices.

    You come up with your interpretations and I come up with mine. Now we have a choice of all the interpretations between us. How do we know which to accept or reject? Surely, we have to continue to reason and eventually come to a conclusion when we can reason no further. Either the interpretations will remain valid, or they are eliminated. I accept we can both be wrong and we will have to stand corrected when these things are finally explained to us in the Kingdom of God. When we are in the Kingdom of God, then we shall be past wanting to know explanations, since they will be immaterial to what is the here and now. Once in the kingdom, knowing where we got things wrong is not going to change where we have arrived.

    It is good to be continuing to speak soberly. May this continue and may we find agreement on things that we might both have to concede some ground on when we are shown to be incorrect.

    There should be no loser in our discussion. Maybe our faith and belief has already saved us. The winner is God, who is making up his jewels. We both sow the seed and we both water, but it is God that reaps the increase. We have to be good stewards and be profitable. Your life is different to mine, yet in both our lives we are to demonstrate the life of Jesus in our own lives the best we can. We accept that we are not perfect and never can be in our own strength. That is why we give praise first and foremost to God for providing His Son, and we thank and praise Jesus for winning the victory for us.

    Shalom
    David

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