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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Timmy and Charisma

    I watched the video clip and I found it very refreshing that from his Jewish perspective, he regards Jacob's Trouble as a time to come. It is interesting how it is going to work out in detail, but in principle I agree with what he is saying.
    His futuristic perception of events cuts across the Preterists teaching and fits in with what I have come to believe. That is why it is so interesting to see how things are developing in the Middle East. I think there will be a third overturning of Jerusalem and the present nation of Israel will be humbled for a last a final time. Even if events do not happen quick enough in my lifetime, they will surely take place.

    I look forward to watching the whole video/DVD if it is downloadable.


    All the best
    David
    Wow, just wow. We can see first hand how futurism is built on shifting sand. Futurism is FALSE in every way.

    That guy is easily refuted. David you of all people should be ashamed of yourself. You constantly harp at everyone that we need to put Bible verses into context, yet you give this guy a pass because he says what you want to hear.

    Let me show you why this guy is dead wrong. He uses Jeremiah 30 to describe current events in modern Israel. That is completely ripping Jeremiah 30 out of context. Let's back up.

    Jeremiah 29:10–14 “For thus says the Lord, ‘When seventy years have been completed for Babylon, I will visit you and fulfill My good word to you, to bring you back to this place. ‘For I know the plans that I have for you,’ declares the Lord, ‘plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope. ‘Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. ‘You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. ‘I will be found by you,’ declares the Lord, ‘and I will restore your fortunes and will gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you,’ declares the Lord, ‘and I will bring you back to the place from where I sent you into exile.’ ”



    Jeremiah is speaking about the return of Babylonian captivity.




    Jeremiah 29:28-32 28 For therefore he sent unto us in Babylon, saying, This captivity is long: build ye houses, and dwell in them; and plant gardens, and eat the fruit of them.

    29 And Zephaniah the priest read this letter in the ears of Jeremiah the prophet.

    30 Then came the word of the Lord unto Jeremiah, saying,

    31 Send to all them of the captivity, saying, Thus saith the Lord concerning Shemaiah the Nehelamite; Because that Shemaiah hath prophesied unto you, and I sent him not, and he caused you to trust in a lie:

    32 Therefore thus saith the Lord; Behold, I will punish Shemaiah the Nehelamite, and his seed: he shall not have a man to dwell among this people; neither shall he behold the good that I will do for my people, saith the Lord; because he hath taught rebellion against the Lord.





    And in context Jeremiah 30 is about the return from Babylonian captivity.

    Jeremiah 30:9 9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.




    Is David still alive? No! Nothing could be clearer that Jeremiah is speaking about the Babylonian return from captivity and not some future event.

    Why are you following an obvious false doctrine of the masses David?
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace - Jimi Hendrix


  2. #12
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    L67


    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Timmy,

    Umm, you're a bit out of date, brother. Once I saw what Paul does with Psalm 2:7 in Acts 13:32, 33, I came into agreement with you a long time ago. In fact, I'm surprised you haven't picked that up from things I've written already - even recently;

    so please could you lay this one down for good?
    Hi Charis,

    Sister, you asume too much that you actually have; because, what you have said ( to the subjective mythorrevisionist) in the six hour secretNOT prayer meeting thread and here speaks differently

    ...and then you start talking about twenty four chromasomes?
    ...sounds like a majorly deformed glob of carcass (if that) to me...so
    Give me a break.
    You of all people should know better. Yeah, i'll drop it when you purge the leaven completely out of your reasonings. It's things like that which are leavening the whole lump, even as little foxes spoil the vine.



    ...and David???
    Justthe jibber jabber concerning Timmy since you don't even understand what the actual problem is.
    Mind your P's and Q's making sure to dot every i and cross every T before Timmy again confronts you over your own perpetual inconsistencies. I see so much rationalized subjective humanistic mythical rubbish in so much of what you post it is pitiable.

    Yeah yeah! Stand down when Charis talks to me or i to her. Otherwise, donn a hooded asbestos suit with facemask.

    A word to the wise is sufficient where only fools rush in.

    Tim TimTim Tim
    Last edited by Timmy; 04-25-2014 at 09:37 PM.
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  3. #13
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    Hello Timmy
    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post

    ...and David???
    Justthe jibber jabber concerning Timmy since you don't even understand what the actual problem is.
    What problem? Are you going to tell me what the problem is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Mind your P's and Q's making sure to dot every i and cross every T before Timmy again confronts you over your own perpetual inconsistencies.
    I am willing to stand corrected, so what are my inconsistencies that you think I have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    I see so much rationalized subjective humanistic mythical rubbish in so much of what you post it is pitiable.
    Unless you want to point out anything specific and discuss it, you are not helping me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Yeah yeah! Stand down when Charis talks to me or i to her. Otherwise, donn a hooded asbestos suit with facemask.
    Richard says this is an open forum. I am wrong for thinking you and Charisma were in close agreement. I expect you to take your own advice and stay out of of other people's conversations on this forum, if you want to take that attitude.


    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    A word to the wise is sufficient where only fools rush in.
    Is everybody a fool except Timmy, who likes to put on the persona of a fool?

    Shalom
    David

  4. #14
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    Hi Timmy,

    Hi Charis,

    Sister, you asume too much that you actually have; because, what you have said ( to the subjective mythorrevisionist) in the six hour secretNOT prayer meeting thread and here speaks differently
    From what I wrote in the 'six hour secretNOT prayer meeting thread and here', please show me what I said, which can be shown conclusively to indicate we are still in disagreement over how to interpret Psalm 2:7? (In respect of you being 'out of date' with my thinking, that is the only point to which I referred.)

    Regarding Art Katz's reading of scripture, I did not post this link because I completely agree with him.

    I wonder why Paul began his first epistle to Timothy with this exhortation?

    3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith:

    Two questions -

    What do you think it means?

    And was Benjamin Friedman 'right' to distance himself from the 'Jewish' agenda, after he became a Christian?
    (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhFRGDyX48c)
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Timmy
    What problem? Are you going to tell me what the problem is?
    Which ones are you talking about? There's me, incontrovertibly amplifying mine so here we alli can see them far more clearly. There's my bestest closestest friend to the end hidee hidee hoe? Then there is you. Then there is the misinterpretation and misrepresentation of the truth which does not rilly bother me in the least...except when any claiming to take part in His life or to be following Him speak about any specific aspect they rilly do not have operational in their lives. So which ones are you querying about?

    I am willing to stand corrected, so what are my inconsistencies that you think I have?
    Oh yeah, we have seen jest how willing you are and how far that goes in more instances than the digits on your limbs. Thank you for this utmost concern and your eveready willingness to experience your personal metamorphosis through thyself for thyself in and of thyself.

    If only everyone can learn of your example just think how conformist this place could be, all comfy and cozy and dull; but, people like the Timmy appear so bound to their biarse there first need be the veil removed, hunh?

    Unless you want to point out anything specific and discuss it, you are not helping me.
    What if you are not helping through distracives or not?

    How's this to begin with?

    Be quick to listen,slow to speak, and slow to anger.

    Yeah yeah...patience Prudence...

    Richard says this is an open forum. I am wrong for thinking you and Charisma were in close agreement. I expect you to take your own advice and stay out of of other people's conversations on this forum, if you want to take that attitude.
    Charisand Timmy agree even when it seems different David.

    Righteeoh David...a completely and unabashedly open forum, a cyber-social experience like no other...and although i am most often than not not so quick to speak very little of my mind until people begin hanging themselves, and love enigmatica with parabolic implications, Timmy likes to push buttons taking lames in this cybersociological experiment...Timmy is alwo here and hir IMput is not silen just because the Timmy can.

    So, lively up yourself, speak your mind, as we social scientists are all taking notes.


    Is everybody a fool except Timmy, who likes to put on the persona of a fool?
    No, we are all part of this crazy little ship of fools together and exit only begins six feet under the stars. There ain't no nothin' 'bout gettin' off the bus here, even deleted words and phrases are still accessible.

    Shalom
    David[/QUOTE]

    MARA NATHA!



    Verückte,

    Timmy
    Last edited by Timmy; 04-26-2014 at 06:14 AM.
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by L67 View Post
    Wow, just wow. We can see first hand how futurism is built on shifting sand. Futurism is FALSE in every way.

    That guy is easily refuted. David you of all people should be ashamed of yourself. You constantly harp at everyone that we need to put Bible verses into context, yet you give this guy a pass because he says what you want to hear.

    Let me show you why this guy is dead wrong. He uses Jeremiah 30 to describe current events in modern Israel. That is completely ripping Jeremiah 30 out of context. Let's back up.

    Jeremiah 29:10–14 “For thus says the Lord, ‘When seventy years have been completed for Babylon, I will visit you and fulfill My good word to you, to bring you back to this place. ‘For I know the plans that I have for you,’ declares the Lord, ‘plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope. ‘Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. ‘You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. ‘I will be found by you,’ declares the Lord, ‘and I will restore your fortunes and will gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you,’ declares the Lord, ‘and I will bring you back to the place from where I sent you into exile.’ ”



    Jeremiah is speaking about the return of Babylonian captivity.




    Jeremiah 29:28-32 28 For therefore he sent unto us in Babylon, saying, This captivity is long: build ye houses, and dwell in them; and plant gardens, and eat the fruit of them.

    29 And Zephaniah the priest read this letter in the ears of Jeremiah the prophet.

    30 Then came the word of the Lord unto Jeremiah, saying,

    31 Send to all them of the captivity, saying, Thus saith the Lord concerning Shemaiah the Nehelamite; Because that Shemaiah hath prophesied unto you, and I sent him not, and he caused you to trust in a lie:

    32 Therefore thus saith the Lord; Behold, I will punish Shemaiah the Nehelamite, and his seed: he shall not have a man to dwell among this people; neither shall he behold the good that I will do for my people, saith the Lord; because he hath taught rebellion against the Lord.





    And in context Jeremiah 30 is about the return from Babylonian captivity.

    Jeremiah 30:9 9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.




    Is David still alive? No! Nothing could be clearer that Jeremiah is speaking about the Babylonian return from captivity and not some future event.

    Why are you following an obvious false doctrine of the masses David?

    Why have you ignored this post David?
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace - Jimi Hendrix


  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Timmy,



    From what I wrote in the 'six hour secretNOT prayer meeting thread and here', please show me what I said, which can be shown conclusively to indicate we are still in disagreement over how to interpret Psalm 2:7? (In respect of you being 'out of date' with my thinking, that is the only point to which I referred.)

    Regarding Art Katz's reading of scripture, I did not post this link because I completely agree with him.

    I wonder why Paul began his first epistle to Timothy with this exhortation?

    3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith:

    Two questions -

    What do you think it means?

    And was Benjamin Friedman 'right' to distance himself from the 'Jewish' agenda, after he became a Christian?
    (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhFRGDyX48c)
    BF WAS SPOT ON.
    FABLES AND GENEOLOGIES ARE ENDLESS speculations creating the questions.
    ...and the dig was about what L67 mentions in his post and why you differed not (or at least said nothing rilly to the contrary-vs- what David had assumed.
    It was not about Ps. 2.7

    No more shall be said over any of this.

    All dropped as you desire.

    Shalom Rav,

    Timmy
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Timmy
    Thank you for this reply and information. I think we have to be careful not to confuse tradition with teaching from Scripture. If I have to choose between doing away with the writings that are Tradition or the Bible, the Tradition is the works I would reject.
    Hi David,

    re:Stern's CJB?

    It is not obvious as you think. I respect you for sticking with the original Hebrew rather than the Greek that was probably translated from the Aramaic that Jesus spoke in. The finding of texts of Matthew in Hebrew have found errors in the Greek translation.
    Not really errors so much as limitations of the Greek Language. If studying one must continually double-back confirming the foundation.

    I agree with you in that some in group #3 have lost the truth and reverted to group #2. We all have to keep questioning as to whether we have understood correctly that on which our faith is based. As we are reminded, when Jesus returns (Luke 18:8) shall he find (The) faith on the earth?
    The problem is that those of group three are most often trusting in their own righteous deeds, not that group 2 doesn't do this either, but they should know better...even as Hashem had Yechezk'el record of His words, “When I say the righteous shall surely live, and he trusts in his righteousness and so commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die." (if remembering correct, that is found near Ezek. 33.15?)






    Is that correct. Are you sure "should" is not meant to be the following? The following is what the subjunctive mood is about;
    You tell me.


    I have been thinking that it is time to end our discussion on our difference of understanding the nature of Jesus. I listened to Art Katz (at least the first part of his talk to do with incarnation). I am so surprised after he lists all the difficulties in believing how incarnation can take place, he is stuck in the wrong way of understanding Philippians 2. He claims Jesus emptied himself of his deity. That is not what the text states.
    I am happy to do a verse by verse exposition with you to get to the truth. BTW, I was saddened to learn that Art Katz died relatively recent. He has left a legacy of talks, which I will download and keep on file.

    I am for moving on to discuss other topics and let the 'Jesus is not God' issue rest for the moment.
    I never said Jesus was not flesh and blood. The clear proofs that Jesus is Hashem and thus God is not done. There was just desire for silence from you so that i could get on with providing the other evidence. You may want to reconvene after everything is laid out?

    Some things Art says are questionable comparing the Bible with it, but yeah, goodstuff there FTMP.

    Re Phil. 2, no, not actually emptied. It was a (temporary) laying aside His priveledges.


    Oh,
    In the Greek, BTW, it is extremely clear who Jesus is (if one knows the Tanakh, as most Messianics).
    Please give me the link again to the book you want me to read. I am not a fast reader and I rarely read a book from cover to cover, so do not expect a response soon. I will read through the book to find the gems that might be hidden there.

    All the best.

    David
    I was talking about a straight through reading of John.

    It is completely inappropriate to pick out any words or phrases to grapple with in any book of the Bible without first being very familiar with the context of the whole book, or if a specific discouse, the context of that discourse.

    Why? It's Jewish non-linear thought. Often (but not always), the main import of it's message is somewhere close to the center of the book, then repeated at the end. When the main point is noted after reading through until clear about this, it is best to read from that point to the end, then read from the beginning to the middle.

    (there are other methods than this, that if knowledgeable, noting the whole text, the method used can be noticed almost immediately. Going from the middle to the end is very common though...and we will not even get into the terms describing these methods.

    For example, Jesus' so-called "Sermon on the Mount", when he taught his talmudim while sitting down--(Rabbinic typical procedure)-in Mt 5-7, the main point is found at 6.12-14. Reading from there to the end, then continuing at 5.3 all the way back again to 6.14 will give one the proper perspective on what was meant about all else said therein. It sets the tone and emphasis in the perspective it is typically taught to be received and understood by Hebrews who grow up knowing this. Most people of other nations are virtually clueless about this significant factor often present in the Bible.


    Shalom Rav,

    Timmy
    Last edited by Timmy; 04-26-2014 at 12:42 PM.
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  9. #19
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    Hi David,

    Timmy has stirred me up to look back at your posts.

    Have you a comment on Psalm 110:1; The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. and how Jesus flummoxed his opponents when quoting this Psalm? ( Matthew 22:46) And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.
    This was only one of several occasions when Jesus either questions, or states something, which shows up the local religious leader's attitudes towards truth. Psalm 110:1 is quoted elsewhere, and it all makes perfect sense when one has receive the same eternal Spirit which/who gave those words to king David.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  10. #20
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    Hi Timmy,

    Shalom,

    Thanks for the clarification.

    I find L67's apparent Bible knowledge which he/she does not care to take into account at a personal level, confusing and concerning. Rom 1:18

    I think you know that I don't have any time for 'Futurism'. Now, I don't feel the need to refute it when it comes up in discussions. I'm not an expert. I know what I know. I know what I believe, and I'm happy to have only the Lord to answer to for that.

    People think what people think, and the vast majority of Christendom is embracing one form of 'thinking' or another, only very loosely linked to scripture, and some of it majorly (excuse the shakey English) out of sync with even the simplest understanding of the Bible's narrative. I don't feel responsible for their fate. I do feel responsible for what I claim as my personal experience of God's dealings, when, occasionally, I share some detail.

    I am interested in your thought that the remnant will be 'a tithe'. Was that a figure of speech, or do you have scripture for the final tally?

    Another thing I find disturbing, is the way 'people' refer to the final gathering up (as you did), as if it only applies to the generation who 'see' Jesus, if indeed He is going to come to (earth) (and) (come) how 'people' are holding out for, despite that the oft-quoted prophecy has already been fulfilled.

    Maybe your busyness has protected you from the repetitiosness of the 'arguments', and maybe your heart is tenderer than mine. Pray for me again.

    Please forgive my brusqueness. You read me right.

    (The fact is), I cannot defend some of Art's declarations about the future, but I am blessed by his honest declamation of what God had shown him.


    I should have posted this presentation, earlier, perhaps, as I believe it is a later talk, and brings even greater light to bear, in that he is more accurately distinguishing the issues that 'people' don't necessarily think about when they are forming denomination allegiances.

    Beyond Messianic Judaism - http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/m...t.php?lid=3323

    Description: Spoken at a Messianic congregation, Art presents a view of the faith that eclipses what is labeled “Messianic,” namely, an apostolic faith. It is only in this faith, reality, power, credibility and witness that we can successfully reach the Jew in the Last Days.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

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