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  1. #1
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    The Two Judaisms (Art Katz)

    Art Katz presents his thoughts in a fairly long but lucid conference talk. He says nearly everything only once, bringing new material in all the way to the end, and littering his statements with a stream of challenges. The Two Judaisms He knows what he wants to say from the start. His unique use of the term 'Judaism' attracts one's attention, and in passing he touches on Israel from all angles. But this is not a discussion about Israel.

    It is about having a Biblically Jewish mentality.... I think.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  2. #2
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    As brother Katz mentioned Key 73 and is relating everything to Jeremiah 17.5-...
    I do not see this message as you. It is prophetic in every way, and not an issue of Goy -vs- Jew.
    It is actually an issue between tradition versus Davidic Judaism (after God's own heart).

    Consider this DVD in relation to what that conference message is all about and come back again to the message younare referring to:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaKmieXj-BY

    Here also is a short video clip to clue you in of a portion about the same topic:


    Although he first mentions Freud, Marx, and Einstein as Jews who have primarily caused the whole world--in believing their philosophies--to become Jewish in it's naturalistic world view, he is talking about the end results of trusting man over trusting God...and primarily the end (historic) results of doing such. He is pointing to what lies beyond as a result of attempted conversion of we Hebs, hinting to the end result of Yakov's response against this message of the gospel, thus the forewarded videos.

    Many, as i myself, have misinterpreted the meaning behind Art's messages failing to establish a well rounded view of things from his perspective...but it is prophetic, so how could anything else be expected. Preterists and Futerists, whether pre, mid, or post millenial in perspective all are misinterpreting prophecy so much so, that i have given up trying to explain perspective which is Oriental and not Western at all. This same problem arising by the desigation of specifics or analogy to these thing which really are neither/nor any such thing is a huge source of misunderstanding scripture=all of which is prophecy and being continually fulfilled without an end date to any of it...except directly in what Yahoshuvah declares in Mt. 5.17-20.

    I have probably confused more than clarified in explaining these things, however, anyone without our mindset, and most importantly the guidance of Ruach Ha'Kodesh (Spirit [of] TheHoly [One]), people will dig through whatever book or varied source of human knowledge and only--at best--obtain surface knowledge without true understanding into Yah's intended knowledge and wisdom hidden in plain sight:

    ...Worship God. The testimony of Yahoshovah is the Spirit of prophecy.
    The Apocalypse 19.10

    Most of you think prophecy is just oracles of a seer and it is not. Seership only represents a very small part of prophecy...and often the seeing expressed is not even recognized as such until after the fact of whatever cycle predefined to be initiating goes into motion. Prophecy is not necessarily linear nor logical, and is neither expressed nor understood by GræcoRoman modes of recording, reasoning, or rationale attempting to figure it out.

    Hopefully helpfully,
    Timmy
    Last edited by Timmy; 02-15-2013 at 08:36 PM.
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  3. #3
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    Hi Timmy,

    I watched the clip and read your post with interest, but have not followed the link yet. Am rather distracted from posting, by 3D intrusions, but the Lord is speaking to me about other things both practical and spiritual, which may eventually be translated into sensible posts here and there.

    If there is just one point I would be glad for you to say more on, it is the connection between Jacob's Trouble and the great tribulation - which Art seemed to be saying are one and the same thing. Really? Why? What other verses support that interpretation, without over-stretching them?

    Prophecy is not necessarily linear nor logical, and is neither expressed nor understood by GræcoRoman modes of recording, reasoning, or rationale attempting to figure it out.
    Exactly!

    But on what grounds can the great tribulation be so limited to Israelites and Jews, that it could be subtitled - or supertitled - 'Jacob's Trouble'?

    Now I hope it's clear I'm open to be persuaded, but I don't see it. One has to forget, totally, to whom the New Covenant came, and that Paul implicates the Gentiles in the pouring out of the Holy Spirit on the twelve tribes, by his allusion to Acts 10 and beyond, in Galatians 3:14.

    So, I wonder if you've ever heard this presentation by Benjamin Freedman, in 1961? I think it (also) contains errors of logic towards the end, but the eye-witness account of events out of public view a hundred years ago, is worth hearing, whether it is believed or not. It's not comfortable listening.

    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Timmy,


    ...If there is just one point I would be glad for you to say more on, it is the connection between Jacob's Trouble and the great tribulation - which Art seemed to be saying are one and the same thing. Really? Why? What other verses support that interpretation, without over-stretching them?...on what grounds can the great tribulation be so limited to Israelites and Jews, that it could be subtitled - or supertitled - 'Jacob's Trouble'?

    Now I hope it's clear I'm open to be persuaded, but I don't see it. One has to forget, totally, to whom the New Covenant came, and that Paul implicates the Gentiles in the pouring out of the Holy Spirit on the twelve tribes, by his allusion to Acts 10 and beyond, in Galatians 3:14.

    So, I wonder if you've ever heard this presentation by Benjamin Freedman, in 1961? I think it (also) contains errors of logic towards the end, but the eye-witness account of events out of public view a hundred years ago, is worth hearing, whether it is believed or not. It's not comfortable listening.

    Howya' Charis,


    There is the object(ive) and the shadow of that object(ive).

    There is the subject(ive) and the shadow of the subject(ive).

    The object(ive) is dependent on the subject(ive), and this is how we CAN only BEGIN to percieve the principal(ity) behind it. The power(s) provided for the object(ive) to physically manifest, come from and remain with the principa(lity) which gives rise to the subject(ive) existing...out of which the object(ive) is bornE.


    Read Torah history--specifically about Yakov--in the first book, showing all people the inception of all things to be generated (generating their generations).

    What is happening today is a result of what happened then, and follows the same cyclic pattern established in the beginning.

    "The time of Jacob's Troubles" is not the Tribulation.
    The Tribulation is near the very end of Jacob's Troubles and is the culmination of them.
    Then he must wrestle with G_d and survive, though the hip be smitten.
    All the children of both of Yakov's wives are Jacob and shall perpetually repeat the principal cycle until it culminates as He whom after the order of MelchiTzadek, Cohen Gadol et Melki Yahoshuvah shall keep for Himself the remnant tithe.

    Wherever the nations are, Yaweh has scattered us amongst them.
    Those who claim and believe through following Ha'Mashiach Yeshua are as Ephesians 2 states.
    Wherever the people of this commonwealth are found, there shall be a sifting, and shaking, and fire.
    Out from this Yaweh's kingdom on earth shall be established.

    Focus only on the object(ive) blinds us to the subect(ive) arising out of the power(s) proceeding from the principal(ities).


    Mara Natha,

    Timmy

    ps. I have never listened to Benjamin Freedman before, and drifted off to sleep listening last night. Intriguing, and quite factual...at least until conscious awareness left this carcass. I'll give it another go when possible. Thank you.

    I have many 3D intrusions--as you call it--vying for interaction meself today. It's hoped the above brevity clarifies at least a smidgen...and when time comes available, be there more things you will share and if i can answer, we can carry on from there.
    Last edited by Timmy; 02-19-2013 at 07:08 AM.

  5. #5
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    Which Judaism is correct about Jesus?

    Hello Charisma and Timmy
    I came looking to start a new thread and saw that maybe this one can be continued with a slight addition. I was wondering what title to give the new thread; 'The Three Judaisms', or the title I have used for this post.
    Though, I would put you both in category #2(see list below), it is evident that you do not agree with each other on everything you hold common. That is not unusual, since in any group, there is hardly ever complete agreement on everything.

    I quote;
    Timmy

    As brother Katz mentioned Key 73 and is relating everything to Jeremiah 17.5-...
    I do not see this message as you. It is prophetic in every way, and not an issue of Goy -vs- Jew.
    It is actually an issue between tradition versus Davidic Judaism (after God's own heart).
    Following some research on the B'rit hadashah suggested by Timmy, it came to me that Jews are divided as to whether Jesus is the Messiah, or if Jesus is the Messiah, whether Jesus is God, or Jesus is not God. It appears to me, that there are three camps Jews can be put in.

    #1. Jews who believe the Messiah has not come, therefore Jesus was not the Messiah and not the Son of God.
    #2. Jews that believe the Messiah is Jesus and that Jesus is God.
    #3. Jews that accept Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God and is not God

    To group #2, I pose the following question. Which of the other two groups is more correct, that is; #1The Messiah has not come; #3 Jesus is not God ?

    I am not a Jew, but if I were, I would fall into group #3 (Note for Timmy - I have used the subjunctive). You both disagree with me for regarding Jesus as not God. So while I acknowledge everything else about the plan God has for his creation and of God's kingdom to come, (group #1 look for the establishment of the Kingdom restored to Israel and the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham) am I more on track than group #1 in which I also believe in the promises made to Abraham, or am I to be rejected or shall I be grafted in as Israel (represented by group #1) will be grafted in after the veil is lifted from their eyes?

    Of course, from my perspective, group #2 could also have a veil over its eyes. The return of Jesus might finally remove the veils from all groups and we will all see what we have got wrong. Just as we all have some sin in us, maybe we are all partly sighted and do not see everything as clearly as we could. Let us pray for each other that when the time comes, we will all be grafted into the true vine for our belief in YHWH (and Yeshua).

    While I leave you to comment on the above, I will continue to research the B'rit hadashah in connection with The prophecy of Micah and the Tanakh. I have just been reading an article in connection with the B'rit hadashah in which Jeremiah 31 is the focus.

    One final question that I have for you both; do either of you have a copy of the following Bible and what do you think of it? The Bible is; 'The Complete Jewish Bible' by David H. Stern

    All the best
    David
    Last edited by David M; 04-24-2014 at 01:43 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Charisma and Timmy
    I came looking to start a new thread and saw that maybe this one can be continued with a slight addition. I was wondering what title to give the new thread; 'The Three Judaisms', or the title I have used for this post.
    Though, I would put you both in category #2(see list below), it is evident that you do not agree with each other on everything you hold common. That is not unusual, since in any group, there is hardly ever complete agreement on everything.

    I quote;

    Following some research on the B'rit hadashah suggested by Timmy, it came to me that Jews are divided as to whether Jesus is the Messiah, or if Jesus is the Messiah, whether Jesus is God, or Jesus is not God. It appears to me, that there are three camps Jews can be put in.

    #1. Jews who believe the Messiah has not come, therefore Jesus was not the Messiah and not the Son of God.
    #2. Jews that believe the Messiah is Jesus and that Jesus is God.
    #3. Jews that accept Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God and is not God

    To group #2, I pose the following question. Which of the other two groups is more correct, that is; #1The Messiah has not come; #3 Jesus is not God ?

    I am not a Jew, but if I were, I would fall into group #3 (Note for Timmy - I have used the subjunctive). You both disagree with me for regarding Jesus as not God. So while I acknowledge everything else about the plan God has for his creation and of God's kingdom to come, (group #1 look for the establishment of the Kingdom restored to Israel and the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham) am I more on track than group #1 in which I also believe in the promises made to Abraham, or am I to be rejected or shall I be grafted in as Israel (represented by group #1) will be grafted in after the veil is lifted from their eyes?

    Of course, from my perspective, group #2 could also have a veil over its eyes. The return of Jesus might finally remove the veils from all groups and we will all see what we have got wrong. Just as we all have some sin in us, maybe we are all partly sighted and do not see everything as clearly as we could. Let us pray for each other that when the time comes, we will all be grafted into the true vine for our belief in YHWH (and Yeshua).

    While I leave you to comment on the above, I will continue to research the B'rit hadashah in connection with The prophecy of Micah and the Tanakh. I have just been reading an article in connection with the B'rit hadashah in which Jeremiah 31 is the focus.

    One final question that I have for you both; do either of you have a copy of the following Bible and what do you think of it? The Bible is; 'The Complete Jewish Bible' by David H. Stern

    All the best
    David
    Hey D,

    Yes, i have Stern's CJB and all other books by him. He is in group 2, and that Bible is a paraphrase from the Hebrew slant. It's Tanakh more often than not is. quite a bit more accurate than any other English translation; but his B'rit Hadasha is full of Hebraisms not found in the text. If you wish to obtain a rudimentary perspective on some of the Hebrew ways of speaking and attitude formed through successive generational traditions, it is a good starting point. The way it is written, leaves room for the reader to decide if Jesus is God...but the few cross reference in the B'rit Hadasha portion point to this very fact.


    If you read through Paul and John in the Greek, nobody can come away as group three. The messages and meanings are all too obvious.

    Those from group 3 i know, after showing them what Paul specifically relates,--and John continually alludes to, which requires reasoning through what John writes--without exception, have all joined group 2...and indeed, the veil is removed...the all end up so excited seeing the whole Bible make more sense and the spirit of Christ begins speaking to them too, and they realize in their lives that future redemption begins now through faith in the finished work of Jesus on the cross, and the resurrection is then proof positive to them all...then experiencing this power to change them and everything around them.

    All appropriated through faithfulness in the faithfulness from Yeshua...which is why there is one (of a few) disagreement(s) with Charis as follows: that Jer. 31 has not yet occurred as a complete fact, but only in part, though the promise of a "new heart" in Ezekiel is already available to "whosoever will(...should not" (Jn.3.16))..."come to the water" in Isaiah 55.
    (...subjunctive added and emphasized boldly for you to note, David)

    I think the word believe, as in actually believing is understood too loosely by the majority. True belief would better be understood as "dependent reliance in", even as the word faith is "trust"ing God so much, whatever He says, we do.



    BAH!!!!!!!!


    More later if materials still have not yet arrived at the home being renovated.

    T
    Last edited by Timmy; 04-24-2014 at 08:22 AM.
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  7. #7
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    Hello Timmy and Charisma
    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    As brother Katz mentioned Key 73 and is relating everything to Jeremiah 17.5-...
    I do not see this message as you. It is prophetic in every way, and not an issue of Goy -vs- Jew.
    It is actually an issue between tradition versus Davidic Judaism (after God's own heart).

    Consider this DVD in relation to what that conference message is all about and come back again to the message younare referring to:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaKmieXj-BY

    Here also is a short video clip to clue you in of a portion about the same topic:

    I watched the video clip and I found it very refreshing that from his Jewish perspective, he regards Jacob's Trouble as a time to come. It is interesting how it is going to work out in detail, but in principle I agree with what he is saying.
    His futuristic perception of events cuts across the Preterists teaching and fits in with what I have come to believe. That is why it is so interesting to see how things are developing in the Middle East. I think there will be a third overturning of Jerusalem and the present nation of Israel will be humbled for a last a final time. Even if events do not happen quick enough in my lifetime, they will surely take place.

    I look forward to watching the whole video/DVD if it is downloadable.


    All the best
    David

  8. #8
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    Hi Timmy,

    which is why there is one (of a few) disagreement(s) with Charis as follows: that Jer. 31 has not yet occurred as a complete fact, but only in part,
    Umm, you're a bit out of date, brother. Once I saw what Paul does with Psalm 2:7 in Acts 13:32, 33, I came into agreement with you a long time ago. In fact, I'm surprised you haven't picked that up from things I've written already - even recently;

    so please could you lay this one down for good?
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  9. #9
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    Hello Charisma
    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Timmy,
    Umm, you're a bit out of date, brother. Once I saw what Paul does with Psalm 2:7 in Acts 13:32, 33, I came into agreement with you a long time ago. In fact, I'm surprised you haven't picked that up from things I've written already - even recently;

    so please could you lay this one down for good?
    I have no disagreement with that and am thinking the same as you. Thanks for drawing this to our attention.

    Have you a comment on Psalm 110:1; The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. and how Jesus flummoxed his opponents when quoting this Psalm? ( Matthew 22:46) And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

    All the best
    David

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Timmy,

    Umm, you're a bit out of date, brother. Once I saw what Paul does with Psalm 2:7 in Acts 13:32, 33, I came into agreement with you a long time ago. In fact, I'm surprised you haven't picked that up from things I've written already - even recently;

    so please could you lay this one down for good?
    Hi Charis,

    Sister, you asume too much that you actually have; because, what you have said ( to the subjective mythorrevisionist) in the six hour secretNOT prayer meeting thread and here speaks differently

    ...and then you start talking about twenty four chromasomes?
    ...sounds like a majorly deformed glob of carcass (if that) to me...so
    Give me a break.
    You of all people should know better. Yeah, i'll drop it when you purge the leaven completely out of your reasonings. It's things like that which are leavening the whole lump, even as little foxes spoil the vine.



    ...and David???
    Justthe jibber jabber concerning Timmy since you don't even understand what the actual problem is.
    Mind your P's and Q's making sure to dot every i and cross every T before Timmy again confronts you over your own perpetual inconsistencies. I see so much rationalized subjective humanistic mythical rubbish in so much of what you post it is pitiable.

    Yeah yeah! Stand down when Charis talks to me or i to her. Otherwise, donn a hooded asbestos suit with facemask.

    A word to the wise is sufficient where only fools rush in.

    Tim TimTim Tim
    Last edited by Timmy; 04-25-2014 at 09:37 PM.
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

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