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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough
    Tell me, how would the Bible refer to an event that was actually going to happen "soon"? Are you saying that's impossible?
    "near" and "soon" are relative notions.

    The first word of Revelation reveals already that it is not about future events.



    1Ἀποκάλυψις Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ἣν ἔδωκεν αὐτῷ ὁ θεός, δεῖξαι τοῖς δούλοις αὐτοῦ ἃ δεῖ γενέσθαι ἐν τάχει, καὶ ἐσήμανεν ἀποστείλας διὰ τοῦ ἀγγέλου αὐτοῦ τῷ δούλῳ αὐτοῦ Ἰωάννῃ, 2ὃς ἐμαρτύρησεν τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ τὴν μαρτυρίαν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ὅσα εἶδεν. 3μακάριος ὁ ἀναγινώσκων καὶ οἱ ἀκούοντες τοὺς λόγους τῆς προφητείας καὶ τηροῦντες τὰ ἐν αὐτῇ γεγραμμένα, ὁ γὰρ καιρὸς ἐγγύς

    Ἀποκάλυψις - from καλύπτω = cover, hide

    It is about the uncovering of hidden things.

    Especially about the uncovering of God's name hidden in the initial letters of "yom hashishi vay'chulu hashamyim", the very central theme of NT.

    Revelation 13:18 reads: "Here is the wisdom! Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, etc"

    If he meant Caesar Nero he could have said it straightways: "Caesar Nero is the beast".
    You didn't answer my question. Tell me, how would the Bible refer to an event that was actually going to happen "soon"? Are you saying that's impossible?

    Your assertion that the Apocalypse is "about the uncovering of hidden things" is not entirely accurate. It is not about the uncovering of "things" but rather the uncovering of the person Jesus Christ. It declares many events that would happen "soon" for the time was "at hand."

    Your hobby horse doesn't make any sense. As far as I know, you have never explained how "yom hashishi vay'chulu hashamyim" has anything to do with "the very central theme of NT."

    Your assertion that John could have spoken explicitly, saying "Caesar Nero is the beast," is absurd in the context of Revelation where everything is presented in symbols.

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Interesting LXX Daniel 12:4,
    καὶ σύ δανιηλ κάλυψον τὰ προστάγματα καὶ σφράγισαι τὸ βιβλίον ἕως καιροῦ συντελείας ἕως ἂν ἀπομανῶσιν οἱ πολλοὶ καὶ πλησθῇ ἡ γῆ ἀδικίας

    12:9,
    καὶ εἶπέν μοι ἀπότρεχε δανιηλ ὅτι κατακεκαλυμμένα καὶ ἐσφραγισμένα τὰ προστάγματα ἕως ἂν


    So here καλύπτω is used tot translate Hebrew "satam"

    v.4,
    וְאַתָּה דָנִיֵּאל, סְתֹם הַדְּבָרִים וַחֲתֹם הַסֵּפֶר--עַד-עֵת קֵץ; יְשֹׁטְטוּ רַבִּים, וְתִרְבֶּה הַדָּעַת

    v.9
    וַיֹּאמֶר, לֵךְ דָּנִיֵּאל: כִּי-סְתֻמִים וַחֲתֻמִים הַדְּבָרִים, עַד-עֵת קֵץ


    Daniel ending with a play on the letters "mem-s'tumah" (closed Mem) "nun-p'shutah" (outstretched Nun);

    v.13,
    וְאַתָּה, לֵךְ לַקֵּץ; וְתָנוּחַ וְתַעֲמֹד לְגֹרָלְךָ, לְקֵץ הַיָּמִין.

    so instead of "l'keits hayamim" it reads "l'keits hayamin"

    "yamin" = right hand.

    Mark 14:62,
    Then Jesus answered, “I am; and

    ‘you will see the Son of Man

    seated at the right hand of the Power

    and coming with the clouds of heaven.’”
    The relation between κάλυψον and סְתֹם is self-evident - they are synonyms. It has nothing to do with the "closed Mem." The word just happens to end with Mem Sofit which is always "closed." It's fine if you want to read your esoteric philosophy into the text, but there is no reason to think that is what Daniel intended.

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    coming = ἐρχόμενος , a participium praesens, present participle

    the coming one = ὁ ἐρχόμενος

    He is coming all of the time, every single moment new,

    which is also the clue of the sayings "I am the Alpha and the Omega"

    ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος,

    who is and who was and who is coming
    By your logic, if that's what the John meant he could have simply said so. But he didn't. You are making up your own meanings of the words.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    You didn't answer my question. Tell me, how would the Bible refer to an event that was actually going to happen "soon"? Are you saying that's impossible?
    Isaiah 7:14,

    Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.



    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Your assertion that the Apocalypse is "about the uncovering of hidden things" is not entirely accurate. It is not about the uncovering of "things" but rather the uncovering of the person Jesus Christ. It declares many events that would happen "soon" for the time was "at hand."

    Your hobby horse doesn't make any sense. As far as I know, you have never explained how "yom hashishi vay'chulu hashamyim" has anything to do with "the very central theme of NT."
    You just couldn't get it.




    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Your assertion that John could have spoken explicitly, saying "Caesar Nero is the beast," is absurd in the context of Revelation where everything is presented in symbols.
    But why present him as the number 666?

    Which is not even the number of his name.
    You must add the title Caesar, which in Hebrew is "kaisar", written "kuf-yud-samech-resh", and not "kasar".

    While the number 666 occurs in different places as meaningful number f.e. as gematria of "meah sh'arim" = hundredfold, which seems to be the key of the parable of the sower (Satan immediately taking away the seed from the rationalists)

    666 is also gematria of the name Setur, one of the ten spies who came back with evil report (Numbers 14)

    The name Setur is certainly cognate to "soteir"= denier, also with gematria 666.

    LXX has Satour, which might be well the name Saturn(us), after which again is called Saturday (for those who do not partake in Sabbath)

    But first of all it is hidden in Genesis 1:31.




    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    The relation between κάλυψον and סְתֹם is self-evident - they are synonyms.
    not quite,

    Greek "kalumma" = veil ; "kalupto"= to veil.
    A meaning that's not innate "satam" = to close up, clog, keep secret, conceal.




    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    It has nothing to do with the "closed Mem."
    Daniel 12:13 ends with an outstretched Nun where a closed Mem would have been expected.

    וְאַתָּה, לֵךְ לַקֵּץ; וְתָנוּחַ וְתַעֲמֹד לְגֹרָלְךָ, לְקֵץ הַיָּמִין

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    By your logic, if that's what the John meant he could have simply said so. But he didn't. You are making up your own meanings of the words.

    He did do so.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough
    You didn't answer my question. Tell me, how would the Bible refer to an event that was actually going to happen "soon"? Are you saying that's impossible?
    Isaiah 7:14,

    Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.
    Man, you sure have a problem answering a simple question!

    Either you don't you understand the basic meaning of words or you delight in absurdity.

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough
    Your assertion that the Apocalypse is "about the uncovering of hidden things" is not entirely accurate. It is not about the uncovering of "things" but rather the uncovering of the person Jesus Christ. It declares many events that would happen "soon" for the time was "at hand."

    Your hobby horse doesn't make any sense. As far as I know, you have never explained how "yom hashishi vay'chulu hashamyim" has anything to do with "the very central theme of NT."
    You just couldn't get it.
    You just can't explain it any more than you can answer the simple question I've asked twice now.

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough
    Your assertion that John could have spoken explicitly, saying "Caesar Nero is the beast," is absurd in the context of Revelation where everything is presented in symbols.
    But why present him as the number 666?
    No one actually knows for sure why John (or whoever) wrote what he wrote. But the symbolic meaning of the number 6 is rather plain in Scripture. And it is associated with the greatest "man of wisdom" (Solomon) who received 666 talents of gold. So there are lots of possibilities. Your idea of Yom Shishi is based on what is NOT written - why should anyone believe it? What does it even mean? How does it relate to anything in the NT? You've been pushing this idea for years but you don't care enough to even try to explain yourself. It's just plain silly.

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Which is not even the number of his name.
    You must add the title Caesar, which in Hebrew is "kaisar", written "kuf-yud-samech-resh", and not "kasar".
    Not true. The title caesar is written in the Peshitta as kuf samech resh. You just reject reality because it doesn't suit your speculations.

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    While the number 666 occurs in different places as meaningful number f.e. as gematria of "meah sh'arim" = hundredfold, which seems to be the key of the parable of the sower (Satan immediately taking away the seed from the rationalists)

    666 is also gematria of the name Setur, one of the ten spies who came back with evil report (Numbers 14)

    The name Setur is certainly cognate to "soteir"= denier, also with gematria 666.

    LXX has Satour, which might be well the name Saturn(us), after which again is called Saturday (for those who do not partake in Sabbath)

    But first of all it is hidden in Genesis 1:31.
    That's ridiculous. Setur is not "cognate" in any way at all with the Greek soteir (savior).

    And as I've explained a dozen times, sitro means "his secret place" and it describes the "secret place" of YHWH:

    Psalm 18:11 He made darkness his secret place (sitro = 666) ; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.

    You just ignore all the facts and constantly assert things that are demonstrably false.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Man, you sure have a problem answering a simple question!

    Either you don't you understand the basic meaning of words or you delight in absurdity.
    You must suffer from some mental problem




    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    You just can't explain it any more than you can answer the simple question I've asked twice now.
    It is very simple. Complicated minds dont get.


    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    No one actually knows for sure why John (or whoever) wrote what he wrote. But the symbolic meaning of the number 6 is rather plain in Scripture.
    Creation was completed, perfected, on the sixth day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    And it is associated with the greatest "man of wisdom" (Solomon) who received 666 talents of gold. So there are lots of possibilities. Your idea of Yom Shishi is based on what is NOT written - why should anyone believe it? What does it even mean? How does it relate to anything in the NT? You've been pushing this idea for years but you don't care enough to even try to explain yourself. It's just plain silly.
    I never did receive not even one talent of gold.
    The talent is defined by the menorah



    Exodus 25:39,
    He shall make it of a talent of pure gold, with all these implements.
    Rashi on Exodus 25:40
    Now see and make: See here on the mountain the pattern that I am showing you. [This] informs us that Moses had difficulties with the construction of the menorah, until the Holy One, blessed is He, showed him a [model] menorah of fire. -[from Men. 29a]

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Not true. The title caesar is written in the Peshitta as kuf samech resh.
    It dates from after Revelation was written



    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    You just reject reality because it doesn't suit your speculations.
    just that is no reality


    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    That's ridiculous. Setur is not "cognate" in any way at all with the Greek soteir (savior).
    Hebrew "soteir", written "samech-vav-tav-resh".



    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    And as I've explained a dozen times, sitro means "his secret place" and it describes the "secret place" of YHWH:

    Psalm 18:11 He made darkness his secret place (sitro = 666) ; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
    Now you're flawing your own argument.

  5. #25
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    From my Alcalay:


  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough
    You didn't answer my question. Tell me, how would the Bible refer to an event that was actually going to happen "soon"? Are you saying that's impossible?
    You must suffer from some mental problem
    You can't even follow the most elementary conversation. I have asked you a simple question two times and you have failed to answer it. Here it is again:

    Tell me, how would the Bible refer to an event that was actually going to happen "soon"? Are you saying that's impossible?

    Are you able to answer that question?

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough
    You just can't explain it any more than you can answer the simple question I've asked twice now.
    It is very simple. Complicated minds dont get.
    Yes, it is very very simple! So why can't answer it?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    From my Alcalay:

    So what? That's modern Hebrew.

    This is getting totally nuts. You reject the ancient spelling of caesar in the Peshitta because it was written later than Revelation, but you base your entire argument about soter on a modern Hebrew dictionary! You're arguments are totally inconsistent.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    So what? That's modern Hebrew.

    This is getting totally nuts. You reject the ancient spelling of caesar in the Peshitta because it was written later than Revelation, but you base your entire argument about soter on a modern Hebrew dictionary! You're arguments are totally inconsistent.
    It is not an argument, but it is a word with number 666, a word that translates "arnoumenos" of 1John 2:22, the denier that is the anti-christ.
    So it fits well to Revelation 13:18, better than "kasar neron".

    But it remains that the main instance of the number 666 is Genesis 1:31.

    It is the number of "yom shishi", sixth day. Which per se is a miracle of the written word.
    But it is written "yom hashishi", the sixth day.
    The letter "hey" serving as definite article is missing in the other day-indications.
    It is "day one, second day, third day, fourth day, fifth day" and then: "the sixth day".
    Now with "the sixth day" the name of God appears to be present in the initial letters of "yom hashihsi vay'chulu hashamayim", the last two words of Genesis 1:31 and the first two words of Genesis 2:1, so exactly at the entrance of Sabbath, coinciding the place where the body of Jesus was laid in the grave while a huge stone was rolled on the door.
    It is simple as that!

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    It is not an argument, but it is a word with number 666, a word that translates "arnoumenos" of 1John 2:22, the denier that is the anti-christ.
    So it fits well to Revelation 13:18, better than "kasar neron".

    But it remains that the main instance of the number 666 is Genesis 1:31.

    It is the number of "yom shishi", sixth day. Which per se is a miracle of the written word.
    But it is written "yom hashishi", the sixth day.
    The letter "hey" serving as definite article is missing in the other day-indications.
    It is "day one, second day, third day, fourth day, fifth day" and then: "the sixth day".
    Now with "the sixth day" the name of God appears to be present in the initial letters of "yom hashihsi vay'chulu hashamayim", the last two words of Genesis 1:31 and the first two words of Genesis 2:1, so exactly at the entrance of Sabbath, coinciding the place where the body of Jesus was laid in the grave while a huge stone was rolled on the door.
    It is simple as that!
    Hey there sylvius,

    In English, the word "argument" has a two basic meanings:

    1) An exchange of diverging or opposite views, typically a heated or angry one: "I've had an argument with my father".
    2) A reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong.

    I was using it in the sense of the second definition. You have given many reasons in your effort to support your idea about the acronym YHVH formed from the words yom hashishi vaykulu hashamayim and how we get the number 666 from the phase yom shishi if we remove the letter hey. This is your argument.

    I can see why you would find this intriguing given the explicit reference to 666 in Rev 13:18, but on the other hand, it doesn't have anything to do with "buying and selling" so the connection with that verse is not clear. I see no reason to accept your assertion that it fits better than kasar neron. On the contrary, when many facts converge to a single conclusion they give strong evidence for the truth of that conclusion, and that's what we see with the pair of identities kasar neron = 666 and kasar nero = 616. And there are many other reasons that confirm this, such as the fact that Nero was a "beast" to the first century Christians. Your reasons for rejecting these facts are inconsistent. You reject the standard ancient spelling of kasar found in the Peshitta but base your argument about the "denier" on a modern Hebrew dictionary. You seem to be willing to just make up whatever you want to suit your argument. That is not the path to truth. And besides, the truth of your argument would not imply that 666 could not also refer to Nero. It could be both. A literal and a symbolic meaning like many other things in the Bible.

    I think it makes perfect sense that the letter hey, which indicates the definite article, was added to the sixth day because the sixth day was different than the others because it was the final day of creation - it was THE day which summed up the whole process.

    And I note that you have not yet answered my simple question. Is it possible in Hebrew to say that something is actually going to happen "soon"? If so, how would you say it?

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Hey there sylvius,

    In English, the word "argument" has a two basic meanings:

    1) An exchange of diverging or opposite views, typically a heated or angry one: "I've had an argument with my father".
    2) A reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong.

    I was using it in the sense of the second definition. You have given many reasons in your effort to support your idea about the acronym YHVH formed from the words yom hashishi vaykulu hashamayim and how we get the number 666 from the phase yom shishi if we remove the letter hey. This is your argument.

    I can see why you would find this intriguing given the explicit reference to 666 in Rev 13:18, but on the other hand, it doesn't have anything to do with "buying and selling" so the connection with that verse is not clear. I see no reason to accept your assertion that it fits better than kasar neron. On the contrary, when many facts converge to a single conclusion they give strong evidence for the truth of that conclusion, and that's what we see with the pair of identities kasar neron = 666 and kasar nero = 616. And there are many other reasons that confirm this, such as the fact that Nero was a "beast" to the first century Christians. Your reasons for rejecting these facts are inconsistent. You reject the standard ancient spelling of kasar found in the Peshitta but base your argument about the "denier" on a modern Hebrew dictionary. You seem to be willing to just make up whatever you want to suit your argument. That is not the path to truth. And besides, the truth of your argument would not imply that 666 could not also refer to Nero. It could be both. A literal and a symbolic meaning like many other things in the Bible.

    I think it makes perfect sense that the letter hey, which indicates the definite article, was added to the sixth day because the sixth day was different than the others because it was the final day of creation - it was THE day which summed up the whole process.

    And I note that you have not yet answered my simple question. Is it possible in Hebrew to say that something is actually going to happen "soon"? If so, how would you say it?

    All the best,

    Richard

    It might be also about Mark's denarius, I can't deny

    Mark 12:15-16,

    "Bring me a denarius to look at.” They brought one to him and he said to them, “Whose image and inscription is this?” They replied to him, “Caesar’s.”


    See:
    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...en-after-81-CE

    (...)

    Now you will say maybe, Sylvius, but you keep on saying that it is all about "yom hashishi" of Genesis 1:31?

    but I say the one thing doesn't contradict the other

    (...).


    Mark 12:16,
    They brought one to him and he said to them, "Whose image and inscription is this?" They replied to him, "Caesar's."

    image= Greek "eikon";
    you'll find also in Revelation 13:14-15,
    It deceived the inhabitants of the earth with the signs it was allowed to perform in the sight of the first beast, telling them to make an image for the beast who had been wounded by the sword and revived. It was then permitted to breathe life into the beast's image, so that the beast's image could speak and (could) have anyone who did not worship it put to death.

    inscription = Greek "epigraphè",
    word that returns in Mark 15:26,
    The inscription of the charge against him read, "The King of the Jews."

    which is about the sixth day, the day on which he was crucified.

    (and remember gematria of "Yeshu Notsri" is 666. )

    About the coin, it's meaning, read Rashi on Genesis 1:27, (consider that image, Hebrew "tselem" , = Greek "eikon")
    http://www.chabad.org/library/articl.../Chapter-1.htm
    And God created man in His image In the form that was made for him, for everything [else] was created with a command, whereas he [man] was created with the hands (of God), as it is written (Ps. 139:5): “and You placed Your hand upon me.” Man was made with a die, like a coin, which is made by means of a die, which is called coin in Old French. And so Scripture states (Job 38:14): “The die changes like clay.” - [from Letters of Rabbi Akiva , second version; Mid. Ps. 139:5; Sanh. 38a]

    in the image of God He created him It explains to you that the image that was prepared for him was the image of the likeness of his Creator. — [from B.B. 58a]
    By then I did find also this:

    http://www.truthorfables.com/Mark_Of_The_Beast.htm

    Titus Flavius Domitianus
    Most Bible expositors give us two candidates from Imperial Rome, Nero and Titus Flavius Domitianus. My choice is Domitian, (A.D. 81-96) the very Roman Emperor who was beginning to demand that his citizens worship him, virtually as a god, at the very time that John penned his prophecy. This simple historical detail is beyond all quibble. Most importantly, his official title in Latin was Imperator Caesar Domitianus Augustus Germanicus. This was rendered as Autokrator Kaisar Dometianos Sebastos Germanikos for his Greek-speaking subjects. And in turn, for their coins, this abbreviated to A.KAI.DOMET.SEB.GE=666 (1+20+1+10+4+70+40+5+300+200+5+2+3+5).
    How could they possibly miss John’s point, or even look elsewhere, with the very coins with his picture jangling in their pockets had his picture! And of course Domitain's name added up to 666. It is significant that, contrary to every other explanation of 666 of which I am aware, the Domitian employs every last letter of his official title in Greek in summing to 666! One of the threats facing the NT Christians was economic. They would not be able to buy or sell. Rev 13:16 - Rev 13:17 (NIV)
    Although there was someone who contended that there were coins with Hebrew inscription "NRVN KSR", but there was never showed up one,
    Last edited by sylvius; 02-21-2013 at 01:31 PM.

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