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  1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    Hi CWH:

    I would like to comment.... I take a little different take on human rights/values than you appear to take... However, I think that the two statements above reflect the issue between you and Rose. Rose is saying that the customs which were considered ok in certain Bible cultures APPEAR to be sanctioned by IHVH GOD! So that slavery on ANY level cannot be justified... and yet you say What ownership as property is that?... Get real! As long as you cannot leave or stay on your own free will it IS slavery! So that is the problem!!! NOW I do not think that the REAL GOD approved of all the so called rules HE is credited in making!...
    I have never justified GOD's role in any of the atrocities of the Bible period. I do think that JUSTICE can involve killing....

    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Hi Mystykal,

    It's ok to disagree. Although I don't fully agree with your views on UN, I do know that they have their failures such as in the areas of reducing world conflicts, poverty etc. Is the UN still relevant today?...I am not sure.

    When I said, "what ownership as property is that" I am referring to Rose comment of slaves as property, if supposed a slave is my property, I can do whatever I want with my property.... I should not be punished with death if I killed the slave or need to treat him till he recovers if I inflicted wound or injury on him. In fact the slave is allowed to leave after 6 years of servitude and at he the year of Jubillee every 50 years. If the slave desired to continue to work as a slave, it is their choice a contract binding to both parties were made with a permanent mark on the slave so that the slave will work for his master for life and the master have to employ him for life and consider him as part of his adopted family, The slave can even run away if he wished ....so what ownership of slavery was this contrary to what we usually think of slavery.

    I do justified what we read in the Bible as true but that many people misinterpreted them and I do agree with you that killings were justified with God ln many areas same as capital punishment in secular laws. God usually don't so things in a hurry as what Rose wanted to see such as the punishments for sinners so as to give time for them to repent. Same with slavery, God gave freewill to man and allow slavery to be banned if they think slavery should be totally banned.

    God Bless.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  2. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Of course, people commit gross humans rights violations all the time! And the Bible says its god does too!
    So you agree that your country, the USA should also be wiped out from the map of the world because drafting its citizen to fight a war to save the country which is allowable in their constitution is a gross violation of human rights....OMG.

    I guess you owe you life to the man-made theory of evolution for without it you won't be here today....OMG.


    More excuses to try and justify the fact that the Bible allows and approves of the ownership of people. Owning people is always wrong even if the Bible says its okay.
    There you go again, trying to justify and make excuses for the gross human rights violations in the Bible, and avoiding the real issue of the fact that the Bible allows and approves of human ownership "slavery"!
    There is no ownership of slavery violating human rights as I have already explained.

    God Bless.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  3. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    The humanist's who wrote the U.D.H.R. believed that all people regardless of gender, race or religious beliefs are entitled to equal human rights, unlike the teachings of the Bible that demand all people worship Yahweh, or else be subjected to his wrath!
    Same as the God of the BIble wrote the equal human rights of "Love you neighbor as thyself"; such one line sentence of wisdom is enough to cover all the 30 articles in the UDHR.

    [INDENT]Exo.20:1-5 And God spake all these words, saying, ... Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
    It is the same as if when you saw someone worshipping a phallus what would you do? You wold probably tell the person off in disgust....or....do you join them in worshipping the phallus as well and having sex with it with all its deceitful messages and perversions. That's exactly what the worshippers of Baal and Molech did, together with child sacrifices! God is telling them in the above passages not to believe in such silly things and be tricked into doing silly things.
    Yes, God was a jealous God because people worship what he created than worship the Creator; analogous to the feeling if your children worship and respect other parents instead of you when you are the one who gave birth to them.

    "Visiting the iniquities of the fathers upon the children unto the 3rd and 4th generation of them who hate me" means that God will take into account or remember the sins committed by the fathers to the 3rd and 4th generations to those who hate him; but such account and remembrance will not affect those who love him or repent of their sins. It does not necessary mean God will punished the sinners to the 3rd and 4th generations of those who hate Him.

    God Bless.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  4. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Do you realize how insane that sounds?? If people are doing what they want with their lives, obviously they're NOT FORCED!!

    People are only forced to do things they DON'T WANT TO DO. If you want to get married, I don't have to force you now do I.

    But, if you try to force me to marry someone I don't want to, we might have a big problem.
    So you agree about force marriage when it is not really forced. The captured women were not really forced into marriage but accepted the marriage to the Israelites soldiers because they have no other choice and justified to do so....It is their decision to marry or be left to fend for themselves against other tribes who will not treat them so humanely if captured or they may resist them by protest, disfiguring themselves, committing suicide, run away, "play the harlot" etc. As I said before, why forced marry when they can just easily gang-raped everyone of them by the minute and then sell them away or left them for good.

    If you are the only woman left in the town or city or the state or the country, you need not marry, men will just raped you every minute.

    God Bless.
    Last edited by CWH; 07-14-2014 at 06:23 AM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  5. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Another bad thing about "forced marriages" is that it usually happens to girls under the age of 18, whose bodies are not yet ready for childbirth. The mortality rate for girls under 18 who get pregnant is much higher than those who wait, and the mortality rate of their children is much higher.

    I guess for people like you Cheow, your primitive culture is more important than people lives.
    What talking? "Forced marriage" can go both ways, young boys with older women as well. What difference is forced marriage compared to blind marriage, arranged marriage, child marriage if people are willing to do with their right to do what they want to do with their lives? What difference is that compared to homosexuals, childless cuples and prostitutes if that is their right to do what they want to do with their lives?

    God Bless.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  6. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    Hi Rose:
    If you are saying that Christinity is based on the OT and all the "gross human rights violations" found there, then you might as well say all the violations found at the UN are the foundation of the U.D.H.R. NOT! You are mixing apples and oranges. The GOD of the OT and the god of the NT or any other god cannot be just rolled up into all the negative parts of a process and then discarded as if that is the origin of the good standard which was somehow built on the back of such attrocities! What you do to the Biblegod you must also do to the UN UDHR!


    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Hello Mystykal

    Whoa ... hold on a minute Look who's mixing apples with oranges!

    The UN is a secular body of people that represent the countries of the world ... the Bible is a book that people believe contains laws and rules given by the Biblegod ... the two cannot be compared!

    Jesus is the one that lumps the Old and the New together by calling Yahweh his father, and saying that nothing shall be changed from the Old until all is fulfilled. Without the Old Testament with all its laws and rules there would be no New Testament. They are inextricably bound together and cannot be separated ... warts and all.

    The U.D.H.R. is a "stand alone" document that contains a detailed description of human rights drawn up by a secular body of people. If you look through the U.D.H.R. you will not find ONE violation of a human right, but that certainly is not the case with the Bible, which is filled with human rights violations!

    Kind regards,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
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  7. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    What talking? "Forced marriage" can go both ways, young boys with older women as well. What difference is forced marriage compared to blind marriage, arranged marriage, child marriage if people are willing to do with their right to do what they want to do with their lives? What difference is that compared to homosexuals, childless cuples and prostitutes if that is their right to do what they want to do with their lives?

    God Bless.
    If people are doing what they want with their lives THEN IT IS NOT FORCED! When a person chooses of their own free will who they want to marry, it's not considered forced. It is only considered a forced marriage when a person is FORCED AGAINST THEIR WILL.

    MARRIAGE SHOULD ONLY BE BETWEEN CONSENTING ADULTS WHO FREELY MAKE THE CHOICE TO MARRY!

    There are many human rights organizations in the world today that are fighting hard to stop forced marriage, because intelligent people know that forced marriages are wrong, no matter what peoples customs or traditions are! Throughout history primitive people have done all sorts of ignorant things because of their customs and traditions, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be stopped when we understand that it is wrong.

    Get your head out of the myths and superstitions of the Bible and come into the modern age, where intelligent people know that forced marriage is wrong and slavery is wrong!
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  8. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Rose
    In addition to the reply from Mystykal and in quick response to your last reply to me on this subject. I wanted to pick up on this point of ownership.

    I agree with you that slavery, as you identify it, and comparable with the black slave trade from Africa is unacceptable. That is not exactly the same as was taking place in Hebrew culture. When the Hebrews took their enemies as captives, you would argue that those captives should not have been taken captive and had the right to their freedom. In giving them their freedom, you give them the freedom to remain the enemy of the Hebrews. What do you do in that situation? How do you enforce the enemy to do that which is acceptable by Human Rights standards? Is it wiser to annihilate the enemy and reduce the need to hold people in captivity? How do you balance Human Rights on both sides? What will you do about Iran now, which at the first opportunity when they have the nuclear bomb, will wipe out Israel with one stroke?
    Hello David,

    The Hebrews were allowed to practice slavery (the ownership of people) in many forms. Some as you say were slaves for six years and then allowed to go free (applied only to Hebrew slaves). Other slaves like the woman given to the slave by her master were not allowed to go free with their husbands. Still others were those that were taken captive in war, or people that were bought from heathen nations, those slaves the Hebrews were allowed to keep forever and pass them down as inheritance along with the children of the slaves.

    1. Captives can be taken as prisoners in war, but they shouldn't be owned as slaves

    2. People can be hired as servants, but they shouldn't be owned as property for any amount of time

    There is absolutely no reason or justification to ever allow people to be owned as slaves by other people!

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Back to the subject of ownership. When we look at all the laws the Hebrews were subject to, we find that servants had the opportunity of becoming a servant for life (for ever). That was by choice and the agreement between Master and Slave was sealed by nailing the ear of the servant to the door post (Exodus 21:6). This was done before Judges as independent witnesses. The mark left on that servant was a sign in their flesh of what they were committed to. You have persons with the want/need to be a servant and so you must give them their Human Right to offer their services as such; even for life (for ever).
    Yes, the subject of ownership. People should never be allowed to be owned in the first place, then there is no issue of allowing them freedom. Employment is one thing, ownership is quite another. A servant is employed, a slave is owned, no matter for what amount of time.

    1. Captives can be taken as prisoners in war, but they shouldn't be owned as slaves

    2. People can be hired as servants, but they shouldn't be owned as property for any amount of time

    The laws and rules in modern civilized countries NEVER allow for the ownership of people "slavery" ... why do the laws in the Bible that you believe are given from god allow for the ownership of people?

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    The other point to bear in mind is; The Year of Jubilee (Leviticus 29). In this year, (every 50 years) all servants were set free. That shows the servants/slaves were never owned/employed without this inbuilt provision to be set free. I agree with you that a person should not own another person and I do not see God condoning that. We have to remember what was considered acceptable in the cultures of times past. I am not one for retaining cultural practices of the past.

    There were provisions for servants and for those captured in times of war to be taken as slaves or servants, but with God's provision applying to the Hebrews the law which Jesus summed up as the 2nd Great Commandment meant that another person was not allowed to abuse another person. If abuse took place, then that is the fault of the Hebrew individual and should not be attributed to God.
    One of the reasons I believe that the Biblegod was made up in the minds of men is because I know that humans act in immoral ways, but I wouldn't expect that from a perfect creator god. Just because cultures in times past approved of immoral acts like slavery, in no way means that a deity should condone those acts by giving laws that allow those acts to take place.

    It's a fact and there is no getting around it ... the Bible does allow the ownership of people "slavery" in many different forms. The Bible says that its god has given laws to accommodate the taking and keeping of slaves, whether it be Hebrew slaves who must be freed in the seventh year, or slaves bought from other countries that can be kept in perpetuity and passed down with their children as inheritance. Women are also considered to be property that can be sold by their fathers to others as maidservants or wives. No matter what excuses or reasons you give it is still a biblical fact and something that would never be allowed in any modern civilized country today ... so why was it allowed and condoned then? Slavery was just as much a human rights violation then as it is now.


    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Every time, I have to say the following and I shall keep on saying it until you stop accusing God first. You must first blame man before you blame God. Please show me where God punishes (not tests) a person where they are first not guilty of that punishment. Job is not an example, because that was a test and that test only came about because of the jealous thinking of people first.

    All the best

    David
    Actually I am not accusing god first because I don't believe he exists. If some kind of super natural intelligence does exist, it certainly couldn't be anything like the Biblegod.


    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    PS Not to forget another statement you made. I know the difference between sin and morals. If you know what sin is, then you know you can sin against people; the same as you can sin against God. The question is; Is sin morally correct?


    The definition of sin:

    1. an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.


    To blaspheme the name of Yahweh is a transgression against a divine law, therefore it is considered a sin, but it is not immoral for me to do that.


    Kind regards,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  9. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Same as the God of the BIble wrote the equal human rights of "Love you neighbor as thyself"; such one line sentence of wisdom is enough to cover all the 30 articles in the UDHR.
    The reason that "Love your neighbor as yourself" cannot replace the U.D.H.R. is because people like you can interpret "neighbor" any way they like, whereas the term "human rights" applies to ALL people.
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  10. #330
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    Apples and Oranges...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hello Mystykal

    Whoa ... hold on a minute Look who's mixing apples with oranges!

    The UN is a secular body of people that represent the countries of the world ... the Bible is a book that people believe contains laws and rules given by the Biblegod ... the two cannot be compared!

    Jesus is the one that lumps the Old and the New together by calling Yahweh his father, and saying that nothing shall be changed from the Old until all is fulfilled. Without the Old Testament with all its laws and rules there would be no New Testament. They are inextricably bound together and cannot be separated ... warts and all.

    The U.D.H.R. is a "stand alone" document that contains a detailed description of human rights drawn up by a secular body of people. If you look through the U.D.H.R. you will not find ONE violation of a human right, but that certainly is not the case with the Bible, which is filled with human rights violations!

    Kind regards,
    Rose
    Hi Rose:

    YOU are the one not paying attention!,,, You ACT like secular v/s religious makes a difference! It does not! The SOURCE of the Bible and the SOURCE of the UDHR are in many ways the same! People get together and write stuff down, The FACT that the Bible Writers claim Divine Inspiration as their SOURCE makes little difference as the the actual SOURCE of their ideas as written down by the scribes especially in later times.

    The problem with the UN are many. And that IS the SOURCE of the UDHR! So, just because ONE document coming out of the mouth of the UN is ok does NOT make the SOURCE of the document GOOD! And so the SAME disregard you give to the Biblegod can be attributed to the authors of the UDHR! A document is only as good as the people who wrote it! Eventhough it may be a secular document or a "religious" one!

    As I see it you really do not look at both sides of an issue. You have decided that the god concept is false and so you get to tear down all ideas which surround such a concept. Instead what you should be doing is trying to find the Source of all Spirituality and figure out how to harrness its power! But life is about choices! I hope you chose well...

    Namaste,


    Mystykal
    Mystykal

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