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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    Though the Torah may have been inspired by God, it may not be sufficient to represent God, since it's principles of justice fall short of what we would expect from a God. ie killing pigeons because of the menstrual cycle. Monkeys have a menstrual cycle too, so it seems to be a natural process rather than it being unclean. And even if it were unclean in any way, what would the killing of 1 million pigeons each year achieve?
    Hello Craig

    Good observation It really doesn't make much sense to think that god created females with a bloody menstrual cycle, and then to declare that it is unclean and in need of more shedding of blood CRAZY

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    So it seems that the Torah is not God's exact word. Rather, it is the words of men, perhaps inspired by God.

    God may have encouraged Moses to create a system of justice, but Moses formulated the content based on his primitive culture.


    If such an interactive god exists, then instead of just encouraging Moses to create a biased, primitive justice system, he should have inspired him to write a true work of justice like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights!

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
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  2. #12
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    If such an interactive god exists, then instead of just encouraging Moses to create a biased, primitive justice system, he should have inspired him to write a true work of justice like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights!
    I would agree with you Rose. However, there is a possibility that God never acts directly in your suggested manner. It may be that he is like a father who encourages a child to draw a picture rather than doing the drawing himself. So he stands back, merely encouraging us to move in the right direction.

    In addition to this consideration, we might also consider the possibility that there was a Dark Ages during the 70 generations after Enoch, and during this time God's face was hidden from humanity. There are 70 generations from Enoch to Christ, and it is only towards the end of the 70 generations that we see the emergence of the Axial Age religions - so a light comes to the gentiles.

    Today, we speak from an Axial Age perspective - we stand in the light of the Gentiles, and the previous age of darkness seems dark by comparison.


    Enoch 3013 B.C. ------555555 days ------Moses 1492 B.C. ------555555 days------Christ 30 A.D.

    70 generations totalling 1111111 days from the translation of Enoch until the resurrection of Christ, and at the very centre - the Passover.

    During this Dark Age there was only the language of retribution, of blood and of sacrifice. It seems like a nightmare, and perhaps it was - the after effects of something so terrible that it had caused God to send the Flood and punish the angels for 70 generations - and plunge our world into darkness for that amount of time.
    Last edited by Craig.Paardekooper; 05-26-2014 at 02:31 PM.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    The Mosaic Laws required the sacrifice of pigeons when a woman was deemed unclean during her monthly cycle. Considering that there were over 100,000 women in Israel at the time, this would mean that 100,000 x 12 pigeons had to be killed each year at least.
    Hello Craig
    Would you please quote the whole passage relating to this and explain the passage. I know Richard has replied to Cheow and quoted Leviticus 15:28-30

    Out of interest, I quickly looked up the passage and I do not read it as the woman has to offer two pigeons every month resulting from her menstrual cycle.

    In particular explain verse 25; And if a woman have an issue of her blood many days out of the time of her separation, or if it run beyond the time of her separation; all the days of the issue of her uncleanness shall be as the days of her separation: she shall be unclean. That does not sound like a normal menstrual cycle to me.

    It sounds to me that an "issue" is more than the normal blood discharge that only lasts for a few days and is not excessive. Think of the woman healed by Jesus who had had an issue of blood for 12 years. That was obviously a serious condition beyond normal menstruation.

    If you do consider any small amount of blood discharge as an "issue of blood", then you have to take into account all the women that did not have a discharge every month, which would reduce the numbers you have quoted.

    However, the issue of blood sounds like an extreme amount of blood beyond the normal 2 - 7 days of separation during the menstrual cycle in which small amounts of blood are discharged together with other mucous tissue.

    Verse 28 again specifically mentions the "issue"; But if she be cleansed of her issue, This is not referring to the small discharges during the time of her separation.

    Whilst she was separated during her menstrual cycle and she was regarded as unclean, if she had a continuing issue of blood outside this period, she was considered to continue to be unclean. It was for that extended period caused by the issue of blood that once she was cleansed and remained clean for 7 days, then she was to offer two pigeons.

    If you read this passage differently to me, then please give a full explanation of the words used.

    All the best
    David

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    I would agree with you Rose. However, there is a possibility that God never acts directly in your suggested manner. It may be that he is like a father who encourages a child to draw a picture rather than doing the drawing himself. So he stands back, merely encouraging us to move in the right direction.

    In addition to this consideration, we might also consider the possibility that there was a Dark Ages during the 70 generations after Enoch, and during this time God's face was hidden from humanity. There are 70 generations from Enoch to Christ, and it is only towards the end of the 70 generations that we see the emergence of the Axial Age religions - so a light comes to the gentiles.

    Today, we speak from an Axial Age perspective - we stand in the light of the Gentiles, and the previous age of darkness seems dark by comparison.


    Enoch 3013 B.C. ------555555 days ------Moses 1492 B.C. ------555555 days------Christ 30 A.D.

    70 generations totalling 1111111 days from the translation of Enoch until the resurrection of Christ, and at the very centre - the Passover.

    During this Dark Age there was only the language of retribution, of blood and of sacrifice. It seems like a nightmare, and perhaps it was - the after effects of something so terrible that it had caused God to send the Flood and punish the angels for 70 generations - and plunge our world into darkness for that amount of time.
    Hello Craig

    If a person is to believe that god sent a flood cleanse the earth of wickedness, then one must also believe that god does intervene directly in the lives of humans. It can't be both ways, god either participates in human life, or is out of the picture and lets nature take its course. From the looks of things it appears that if there is a god, he is out of the picture entirely and lets nature take its course.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    I would agree with you Rose. However, there is a possibility that God never acts directly in your suggested manner. It may be that he is like a father who encourages a child to draw a picture rather than doing the drawing himself. So he stands back, merely encouraging us to move in the right direction.
    James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hello Craig

    If a person is to believe that god sent a flood cleanse the earth of wickedness, then one must also believe that god does intervene directly in the lives of humans. It can't be both ways, god either participates in human life, or is out of the picture and lets nature take its course. From the looks of things it appears that if there is a god, he is out of the picture entirely and lets nature take its course.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Dan 4:17 to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.


    The two quotes above show that God is active in different ways.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hello Craig

    If a person is to believe that god sent a flood cleanse the earth of wickedness, then one must also believe that god does intervene directly in the lives of humans. It can't be both ways, god either participates in human life, or is out of the picture and lets nature take its course. From the looks of things it appears that if there is a god, he is out of the picture entirely and lets nature take its course.

    Take care,
    Rose
    If a person is to believe that god sent a flood cleanse the earth of wickedness, then one must also believe that god does intervene directly in the lives of humans. It can't be both ways, god either participates in human life, or is out of the picture and lets nature take its course. From the looks of things it appears that if there is a god, he is out of the picture entirely and lets nature take its course.
    But then we must know that in Biblical times there were those who did not believe that GOD would intervene either....

    2 Peter 3:1-13
    1 This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2 that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles.
    3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.”
    5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But the present heavens and earth by His word are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men."

    Matthew 24:48
    But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;...."

    Matthew38:24:
    For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

    Matthew 24:39
    And knew not vntill the Flood came, and tooke them all away: so shall also the comming of the Sonne of man be.
    - King James Version (1611)

    and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
    - New American Standard Version (1995)

    and they knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
    - American Standard Version (1901)


    So the flood story along with the Sodom story are "evidence" that GOD does visit earth and that GOD does act in the affairs of humans.

    Namaste,

    Mystykal


    Mystykal

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Your comments are false and make no sense CWH. Craig was talking specifically about the sacrifice required for women after menstruation. The text specifies "two doves or two young pigeons."

    Leviticus 15:28-30 "'When she is cleansed from her discharge, she must count off seven days, and after that she will be ceremonially clean. 29 On the eighth day she must take two doves or two young pigeons and bring them to the priest at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting.

    Please take your own advice, and "do your homework," ok?
    Bodily discharges and diseases were considered as unclean and were classified under the category of sin. Sin offerings were based on affordability. if they can afford a lamb or oxen as offerings, fine, but if they cannot afford even pigeons, Merciful God allows them to use other means of offerings such as flour to atone for their sins:

    Leviticus 15:28*“‘When she is cleansed from her discharge, she must count off seven days, and after that she will be ceremonially clean. 29*On the eighth day she must take two doves or two young pigeons and bring them to the priest at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 30*The priest is to sacrifice one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. In this way he will make atonement for her before the Lord for the uncleanness of her discharge.

    Leviticus 5:11*“‘If, however, they cannot afford two doves or two young pigeons, they are to bring as an offering for their sin a tenth of an ephah[b] of the finest flour for a sin offering. They must not put olive oil or incense on it, because it is a sin offering.

    Further more sparrows, cheaper than pigeons, can also be used as sin offerings.(Matthew 10:29 and Leviticus 14:5)

    Craig is talking nonsense about killing a million pigeons to atone for the menstruations of 100,000 israelites women per year as there were other means of offering sin offerings not necessary pigeons. And some people agrees with him.

    That's why I said, Craig needs to do his homework.

    God Bless.
    Last edited by CWH; 05-27-2014 at 10:20 AM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Bodily discharges and diseases were considered as unclean and were classified under the category of sin. Sin offerings were based on affordability. if they can afford a lamb or oxen as offerings, fine, but if they cannot afford even pigeons, Merciful God allows them to use other means of offerings such as flour to atone for their sins:

    Leviticus 15:28*“‘When she is cleansed from her discharge, she must count off seven days, and after that she will be ceremonially clean. 29*On the eighth day she must take two doves or two young pigeons and bring them to the priest at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 30*The priest is to sacrifice one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. In this way he will make atonement for her before the Lord for the uncleanness of her discharge.

    Leviticus 5:11*“‘If, however, they cannot afford two doves or two young pigeons, they are to bring as an offering for their sin a tenth of an ephah[b] of the finest flour for a sin offering. They must not put olive oil or incense on it, because it is a sin offering.

    Further more sparrows, cheaper than pigeons, can also be used as sin offerings.(Matthew 10:29 and Leviticus 14:5)

    Craig is talking nonsense about killing a million pigeons to atone for the menstruations of 100,000 israelites women per year as there were other means of offering sin offerings not necessary pigeons. And some people agrees with him.

    That's why I said, Craig needs to do his homework.

    God Bless.
    The substitute flour and oil offering is ONLY for those who cannot afford to offer the pigeons or doves! So, if all the women could afford pigeons and doves, then that is what they are required to give. Craig is perfectly correct in stating what he did, you are the one talking nonsense!

    It's pretty crazy when you stop and think about the Biblegod requiring a bloody sin offering for the natural functioning of the human body. Just more proof that the Bible was written from the minds of superstitious primitive men.
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    The substitute flour and oil offering is ONLY for those who cannot afford to offer the pigeons or doves! So, if all the women could afford pigeons and doves, then that is what they are required to give. Craig is perfectly correct in stating what he did, you are the one talking nonsense!

    It's pretty crazy when you stop and think about the Biblegod requiring a bloody sin offering for the natural functioning of the human body. Just more proof that the Bible was written from the minds of superstitious primitive men.
    Based on the normal distribution curve, tell me how many can afford pigeons for sin offerings? The chances are only about 50% to 60%, the other 20% to 25% will be able to afford more than pigeons and the other 20% to 25% will be too poor to be able to afford pigeons for sin offerings. The purpose of sin offering is based on affordabilty so that everyone contributed to the sin offerings to seek pardon and forgiveness of sin. The offerings will then be shared among all so that everyone poor and rich, could eat and enjoy the pardon from the sin offerings. This is also to celebrate the forgiveness of sins. So Craig is talking nonsense to the million of pigeons needed for the sin offeringss per year. The amount of pigeons for sin offerings were far less and there were other birds such as sparrows and turtle doves as alternatives to pigeons for the sin offerings. God sees all uncleanliness from body discharges as potential sources of diseases which may harm self and others and thus sinful.

    Body discharges are considered as potentilally infectious; that's how diseases are spread. And during the time of Moses, there were no bactericidal solutions to kill the germs that the body discharges may harbor and thus the best solution was to let nature do its work from sunlight, fresh air and dryness which is the reason why people with discharges have to be isolated for certain amount of time. Normal cleanliness are also needed to ensure better hygiene. Rest, water and food are also needed to reduce the physiological stress and to replace body fluid and protein losses.

    God Bless.
    Last edited by CWH; 05-28-2014 at 04:58 AM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  10. #20
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    By my calculations 60 % of 100,000 x 12 = 720,000 sacrifices.

    And if bloody discharges are a potential source of infection, then what about al the blood shed and discharged by all these sacrifices?

    And if God's intention was to simply isolate the individual, then why require sacrifice at all?

    It just seems so irrational, wasteful and unnecessary.

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