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  1. #121
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    1. There can be no blame whatsoever directed at humans for the Nephilim, because they inhabited the land before the people were there.
    People CHOSE to follow the Nephilim, so they joined in the rebellion. The fact that Nephilim existed before people is besides the point.

    2. Genesis 6 does not blame the Nephilim for the Biblegod's anger at the wickedness of man.
    This is a bit like burying your head in the sand, since all the extra-biblical background materials indicate that the Nephilim were to blame.

    Absolutely no good can come from commanding men to rape and murder women and children ... it is immoral and it is WRONG!
    PS. No where in the Bible does God command any sexual union with Nephilim tribes, by rape, by consent or in any way. Please provide verses for such an outrageous statement.

    In response to this, the goodness of their actions depends on -

    1. if God really commanded it
    2. if God had a good reason for commanding it

    I ask you, Rose, if the Nephilim really were the progeny of fallen angels - "children of Satan" - anti-Christs - whose primary aim was the destruction of humanity - would God be justified in ordering their destruction?

    Well, in your naturalistic universe where God does not even exist, then of course you HAVE to say No. But, once you allow that God exists, and that the Nephilim really were evil, then the answer might be different.



    A CONSISTENT PATTERN AND THEME CENTRAL TO THE BIBLE

    Anyway, my entire justification for the genocide rests only upon the identification of the Canaanite tribes with the Fallen Angels and their offspring - that's why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, and that's why he later commanded the destruction of Canaan.

    Enoch's translation 3013 B.C. ------------ 555555 days ------------ Moses 1492 B.C. ------------ 555555 days ------------ Christ 30 A.D.

    The Sons of God take human wives ---------------------------------- Eradication of the Nephs--------------------------------The Immaculate Conception
    Last edited by Craig.Paardekooper; 06-18-2014 at 12:18 AM.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    People CHOSE to follow the Nephilim, so they joined in the rebellion. The fact that Nephilim existed before people is besides the point.


    This is a bit like burying your head in the sand, since all the extra-biblical background materials indicate that the Nephilim were to blame.
    Hello Craig

    Most of your statements about the Nephilim come from far reaching assumptions, picked from various extra-biblical material and constructed into your own idiosyncratic narrative. There is not enough information in the Bible to really make heads or tails of who or what the Nephilim were considered to be by the biblical authors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose
    Absolutely no good can come from commanding men to rape and murder women and children ... it is immoral and it is WRONG!
    PS. No where in the Bible does God command any sexual union with Nephilim tribes, by rape, by consent or in any way. Please provide verses for such an outrageous statement.
    There is nothing whatsoever outrageous about my statement of the commands made by the Biblegod, which directs the Hebrews on numerous occasions to murder all the inhabitants of particular communities, except the virgin women. If any of the Canaanite women that were taken for wives had Nephilim blood in them (as you believe), then the blame falls back on god.

    As I have explained to Cheow, taking a woman captive for the purpose of marrying her is and egregious human rights violation and considered rape!

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    In response to this, the goodness of their actions depends on -

    1. if God really commanded it
    2. if God had a good reason for commanding it

    I ask you, Rose, if the Nephilim really were the progeny of fallen angels - "children of Satan" - anti-Christs - whose primary aim was the destruction of humanity - would God be justified in ordering their destruction?

    Well, in your naturalistic universe where God does not even exist, then of course you HAVE to say No. But, once you allow that God exists, and that the Nephilim really were evil, then the answer might be different.
    Here is the conundrum that exists under your narrative of who the Nephilim are and what they did.

    1. If as you believe, the Nephilim exist because god created them, then he also knew full well every action they would take.

    2. If as you believe, god used the Flood to wipe out humanity and the Nephilim, he also knew that his plan wouldn't work, so it was a senseless loss of human life.

    3. If as you believe, the Canaanite tribes were descendants of the Nephilim, then that identification was known and planned by god from the beginning.

    The only conclusion I can come to from the points listed above, is that the Biblegod created humans and the Nephilim for the purpose of destroying them not once, nor twice, but many times! And I suppose since you believe god created everything anyway, he can do whatever he wants and say that it was justified ... there is no rhyme nor reason to any of it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    A CONSISTENT PATTERN AND THEME CENTRAL TO THE BIBLE

    Anyway, my entire justification for the genocide rests only upon the identification of the Canaanite tribes with the Fallen Angels and their offspring - that's why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, and that's why he later commanded the destruction of Canaan.

    Enoch's translation 3013 B.C. ------------ 555555 days ------------ Moses 1492 B.C. ------------ 555555 days ------------ Christ 30 A.D.

    The Sons of God take human wives ---------------------------------- Eradication of the Nephs--------------------------------The Immaculate Conception
    As I said in my points above: if god exists as you believe, then he can do whatever he chooses and call it justified, but to the rational, intelligent mind it looks insane! Creating life on one hand, to merely destroy it on the other is an act of madness, but that is what you get when you try and make sense of the biblical narrative.

    Kind regards,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

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    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

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  3. #123
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    Hello Rose
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post

    Most of your statements about the Nephilim come from far reaching assumptions, picked from various extra-biblical material and constructed into your own idiosyncratic narrative. There is not enough information in the Bible to really make heads or tails of who or what the Nephilim were considered to be by the biblical authors.
    At least for this part, I agree with you. However, I am not going to let you get away with the next bit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    There is nothing whatsoever outrageous about my statement of the commands made by the Biblegod, which directs the Hebrews on numerous occasions to murder all the inhabitants of particular communities, except the virgin women.
    Please list the occasions and give the biblical references to where God gives those instructions.

    I have argued with you before about the time Moses's gave the instruction to keep the 32,000 virgin after the officers in charge of the campaign fought against the Midianites, had not followed God's instruction but saved the women and children. When we see what God said to Moses, we find the text does not give us the specific detailed words. All the text tells us is; (Num 31:1) And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites:
    Whatever the specific instructions were, they had not been carried out according to the instruction given by Moses. We are told (v14) And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. The reason Moses was wroth is seen by the question Moses asks; (v15) And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? This was not what Moses expected. It is obvious, Moses expected all the women and children to be killed. It was the decision of Moses to spare the virgins only and that was after they had already been spared. The original intention was that all the women and children had to be killed. Therefore, Moses's instruction was then to kill the women and children and save only the virgins.

    If there are any examples that match what you say Rose, then please give the references and let us see how many there are.

    All the best
    David

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Rose

    At least for this part, I agree with you. However, I am not going to let you get away with the next bit.


    Please list the occasions and give the biblical references to where God gives those instructions.

    I have argued with you before about the time Moses's gave the instruction to keep the 32,000 virgin after the officers in charge of the campaign fought against the Midianites, had not followed God's instruction but saved the women and children. When we see what God said to Moses, we find the text does not give us the specific detailed words. All the text tells us is; (Num 31:1) And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites:
    Whatever the specific instructions were, they had not been carried out according to the instruction given by Moses. We are told (v14) And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. The reason Moses was wroth is seen by the question Moses asks; (v15) And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? This was not what Moses expected. It is obvious, Moses expected all the women and children to be killed. It was the decision of Moses to spare the virgins only and that was after they had already been spared. The original intention was that all the women and children had to be killed. Therefore, Moses's instruction was then to kill the women and children and save only the virgins.

    If there are any examples that match what you say Rose, then please give the references and let us see how many there are.

    All the best
    David
    Hello David,

    I will be more than happy to list examples for you.

    I will first make a statement about the Biblegod's relationship to Moses and the Hebrew people, where he seems to have no problem with making his displeasure known if they go against his commands. For instance when Moses struck the rock in the wilderness, or when someone happened to touch the Ark of the Covenant. So at any time if Moses or the Hebrews did something out of line with gods wishes he could surely step in and let his displeasure be known.

    Secondly, the law of god states that if a man sees a captured woman that he desires, he can keep her for a wife, so Moses was justified under the law to allow the men to take the virgins for themselves.

    Deuteronomy 21:10-12 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house;

    Here are some examples of people being murdered and women being taken for the purposes of rape, all allowable under the law of the Biblegod.


    Judge 21:10-12 And the congregation sent thither twelve thousand men of the valiantest, and commanded them, saying, Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead with the edge of the sword, with the women and the children. And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man. And they found among the inhabitants of Jabesh-Gilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan ...

    Judge 21:20 Therefore they commanded the children of Benjamin, saying, Go and lie in wait in the vineyards; And see, and, behold, if the daughters of Shiloh come out to dance in dances, then come ye out of the vineyards, and catch (chataph) you every man his wife of the daughters of Shiloh, and go to the land of Benjamin.

    Numbers 31:15-18 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.



    Hope that helps,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
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  5. #125
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    Hello Rose
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hope that helps,
    Rose
    Thank you Rose. You have helped make my point. You have not shown numerous examples of where God told to kill and save the virgins only. You have given one further example to the one I already referred to, and at most, that would make two examples in which virgins were saved.

    You may also like to make note that perhaps what Moses did when he instructed the virgins to be kept, the people in the second example (found in Judges 21) may have used as a precedent. When you read the text, you find there is no mention of God giving the instruction; (Judges 21:10) And the congregation sent thither twelve thousand men of the valiantest, and commanded them, saying, Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead with the edge of the sword, with the women and the children. 11 And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man. 12 And they found among the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan.

    I have not twisted words, I have read the text straight as it is.


    The fact is; you exaggerated the facts by saying "numerous examples", and so far there are two examples where virgins were kept and in none of those examples is God seen to give the instruction. Another case of people doing what they considered was right in their own eyes. We note at the very end of the Book of Judges at the end of the chapter in which you have quoted this example, it says (Judges 21:25) In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

    When will you start getting your facts about the Bible correct?


    All the best
    David

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post



    You may also like to make note that perhaps what Moses did when he instructed the virgins to be kept, the people in the second example (found in Judges 21) may have used as a precedent. When you read the text, you find there is no mention of God giving the instruction; (Judges 21:10) And the congregation sent thither twelve thousand men of the valiantest, and commanded them, saying, Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead with the edge of the sword, with the women and the children. 11 And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man. 12 And they found among the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan.

    I have not twisted words, I have read the text straight as it is.
    Hello David,

    You didn't twist words but you didn't do your due diligence. If you do back the previous chapter Judges 20, it was God who give the command to kill the children of Benjamin.

    Judges 20:18 18 And the children of Israel arose, and went up to the house of God, and asked counsel of God, and said, Which of us shall go up first to the battle against the children of Benjamin? And the Lord said, Judah shall go up first.

    And the men of Israel asked the Lord what to do about the children of Benjamin. Here is what the Lord said.

    Judges 20:23 23 (And the children of Israel went up and wept before the Lord until even, and asked counsel of the Lord, saying, Shall I go up again to battle against the children of Benjamin my brother? And the Lord said, Go up against him.)

    And they asked the Lord yet again what to do with the children of Benjamin. Judges 20:28 28 And Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, stood before it in those days,) saying, Shall I yet again go out to battle against the children of Benjamin my brother, or shall I cease? And the Lord said, Go up; for to morrow I will deliver them into thine hand.

    God ordered Israel to slaughter the children of Benjamin. And then He ALLOWED them to keep the virgins as was permissible under His law. God is ultimately responsible. Period. God can give the command to kill, so if he didn't approve of the virgins being taken he could have spoke up. His silence condones it.

    And as far as Moses we see the same thing again. God commanded the slaughter of innocent women and children and allowed the men to take only the virgins.

    Numbers 31 1-2 31 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

    2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.



    God ordered the slaughter and his followers did what was permissible under His law.


    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    The fact is; you exaggerated the facts by saying "numerous examples", and so far there are two examples where virgins were kept and in none of those examples is God seen to give the instruction. Another case of people doing what they considered was right in their own eyes. We note at the very end of the Book of Judges at the end of the chapter in which you have quoted this example, it says (Judges 21:25) In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

    When will you start getting your facts about the Bible correct?
    Wrong! God is the one who commanded the killing and his silence condones the keeping of virgins under His law. The fact that there is even two examples of this filth is enough to make a rational person sick.


    It is you who has your facts concerning the Bible wrong.

    Take care
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace - Jimi Hendrix


  7. #127
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    Hi L67,

    the example you just gave is an example from silence. You are saying that God is responsible because He kept silent !! Your logic seems to be saying that God never commanded them not to take virgins, so God is responsible.

    In other words, you might be viewed as putting words into God's mouth.

    However, I would argue that if God did not explicitly command it, then He did not command it, and it was presumptious of the congregation to extrapolate God's command to including genocide of the Benjaminites and forced marriage of their virgins. The Hebrews got carried away.

    I read the chapters of Judges from chapter 19 to chapter 21 where it describes the incident.

    A group of Benjaminites from the city of Gibeah raped and killed a Levites concubine. The Levite then appealed to the whole of Israel for justice. The Israelites asked the Benjaminites to surrender those who had committed the crime, but instead the Benjaminites mobilized a huge army against Israel. So here the Benjaminites are the aggressors. The Benjaminites started slaughtering the Israelites 22, 000 in one day. The ISraelites really did not want to fight against the Benjaminites - but God told them to do so - for the sake of Justice. Amother 18,000 Israelites were slaughtered. IN the third battle Israel defeated the Benjaminites.

    However, here the ISraelites went a lot further than God's command to fight against them - the Israelites put all the twons of Benjamin to the sword, killing the animals and everything else they found..

    After wards, when the inhabitants of Jabesh Gilead failed to come to assembly, the Israelites attacked Jabesh Gilead killing all the men, women and children, but sparing the virgins, whom they handed over to the Benjaminites as a peace offering.

    It seems obvious that all this barbarity and craziness was carried out quite independently of the commands of God. . We can only attribute to God what God commands, and he did not command any of this.
    Last edited by Craig.Paardekooper; 06-19-2014 at 10:40 AM.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    Hi Rose,

    the example you just gave is an example from silence. You are saying that God is responsible because He kept silent !! Your logic seems to be saying that God never commanded them not to take virgins, so God is responsible.

    In other words, you might be viewed as putting words into God's mouth.

    However, I would argue that if God did not explicitly command it, then He did not command it, period, and it was presumptious of the congregation to extrapolate God's command to including genocide of the Benjaminites and forced marriage of their virgins.


    I see your point though, that God could have stopped atrocities by speaking up or intervening, rather than letting the Hebrews exercise their freewill. Once again we are back to the issue of freewill.
    Hi Craig

    No, I am not arguing from a position of silence. As I just said in a post to David, the laws that the Hebrews lived by were given to Moses by god. One of those laws, found in Deut. 21 allows Hebrew men to capture women and take them as wives! Can you imagine a law like that being written into our Constitution! This law effectively justified every incident of men taking captured women whenever they lusted after them. How despicable is that?


    Deuteronomy 21:10-12 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house;

    As for the incident of the Benjaminites, it's quite an interesting story if you read the whole narrative starting in Judges 19-21. It begins with the Levite who gives his concubine to a group of men from the tribe of Benjamin to rape and torture all night long, until she dies on the steps of her house in the morning. The Levite then cuts her body into twelve pieces and sends it to all tribes of Israel. The ultimate decision for the crime committed by the men of Benjamin, is to wipe out the whole tribe of Benjamin.


    Judge20:18 And the children of Israel arose, and went up to the house of God, and asked counsel of God, and said, Which of us shall go up first to the battle against the children of Benjamin? And the LORD said, Judah shall go up first.

    Instead of wiping out the whole tribe of Benjamin, 600 men are allowed to live, and of course those men needed wives, so they went to Jabesh-Gilead and slaughtered all the inhabitants except for 400 virgins, but they still need 200 more virgins, so they go to Shiloh and capture 200 virgin girls who are dancing at a festival to the Lord.

    Bottom line: The Biblegod was by no means a silent bystander, rather it was his command to the Hebrews to wipe out the tribe of Benjamin that led to the mass slaughter and rape of Jabesh-Gilead and Shiloh ... not to mention all the innocent people that just happened to be members of the tribe of Benjamin.

    The whole Judges narrative is one egregious humans rights violation after another, in which the Biblegod was a very active participant. God was not silent, and I was not putting words in his mouth.


    Quote Originally Posted by Craig.Paardekooper View Post
    I have to admit Rose, that I am really glad that you are fighting as hard as you can against the Bible God. By destroying illusion, you leave behind a clearer vision.
    Thank you Over four and a half years ago when I started my journey of discovery, I was in a similar place that you are now. Richard and I began asking the tough questions about all the problems with the biblical narrative, and we were committed to keeping our integrity while finding the answers. My intent was never to toss out the Biblegod, but the conclusions I came to left me no choice.

    When I began comparing the gods of other cultures to the Biblegod their similarities were astounding, also the patriarchal mindset of other societies was a direct reflection of how Hebrew men thought. Another huge influence in my decision to declare the Biblegod a construct of the male mind, was the extreme gender bias, and human rights violations that permeate the entire Bible. There was no way I could reconcile the atrocious behavior of the primitive men of the Bible, with a caring, loving god.

    Of course, you too will have to decide for yourself if you are able to keep your integrity, and at the same time reconcile the gender bias and human rights violations portrayed in the Bible as being commanded by god. As you know, Richard and I could not.

    Good luck on your journey,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
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  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hello David,

    I will be more than happy to list examples for you.

    I will first make a statement about the Biblegod's relationship to Moses and the Hebrew people, where he seems to have no problem with making his displeasure known if they go against his commands. For instance when Moses struck the rock in the wilderness, or when someone happened to touch the Ark of the Covenant. So at any time if Moses or the Hebrews did something out of line with gods wishes he could surely step in and let his displeasure be known.
    Just like secular law, whoever breaks the law must be punished according to the law so as to maintain integrity and justice. If murder carries a death penalty then death penalty shall be given. If death penalty is decreed for going against God's command then it is right that the meted punishment be given.

    Secondly, the law of god states that if a man sees a captured woman that he desires, he can keep her for a wife, so Moses was justified under the law to allow the men to take the virgins for themselves.

    [INDENT]Deuteronomy 21:10-12 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house;
    The keyword here is "thy wife". They were to be married.

    Here are some examples of people being murdered and women being taken for the purposes of rape, all allowable under the law of the Biblegod.


    Judge 21:10-12 And the congregation sent thither twelve thousand men of the valiantest, and commanded them, saying, Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead with the edge of the sword, with the women and the children. And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man. And they found among the inhabitants of Jabesh-Gilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan ...

    [INDENT][I]Judge 21:20 [I]Therefore they commanded the children of Benjamin, saying, Go and lie in wait in the vineyards; And see, and, behold, if the daughters of Shiloh come out to dance in dances, then come ye out of the vineyards, and catch (chataph) you every man his wife of the daughters of Shiloh, and go to the land of Benjamin.
    Bride kidnapping was a tradition in those days.... or should you stop their rights to freedom to practice their traditions. In Bride kidnapping practice as is currently practiced in some cultures especially in Krgystan is not considered as rape as the bride and bridegroom will be married.

    Numbers 31:15-18 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
    They were married and thus not considered as rape. It was a tradition in the Middle East in those days that men were allowed to marry the captive women.... or should people stop their rights and freedom to practice their culture? The women and males who hath laid with men were killed because of their sexual evils which they practiced in their worship to Baal or Molesch.

    God Bless.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
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  10. #130
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi Craig

    No, I am not arguing from a position of silence. As I just said in a post to David, the laws that the Hebrews lived by were given to Moses by god. One of those laws, found in Deut. 21 allows Hebrew men to capture women and take them as wives! Can you imagine a law like that being written into our Constitution! This law effectively justified every incident of men taking captured women whenever they lusted after them. How despicable is that?
    What if the US constitution allows wife swapping and adultery, is that also despicable?
    Taking women captives as wives were a tradition in the Middle East, is that wrong? Bride kidnapping which falls under the category of marriage by wife capture is an interesting tradition:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bride_kidnapping


    Deuteronomy 21:10-12 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house;

    The keyword is to be "thy wife". there was no rape.

    As for the incident of the Benjaminites, it's quite an interesting story if you read the whole narrative starting in Judges 19-21. It begins with the Levite who gives his concubine to a group of men from the tribe of Benjamin to rape and torture all night long, until she dies on the steps of her house in the morning. The Levite then cuts her body into twelve pieces and sends it to all tribes of Israel. The ultimate decision for the crime committed by the men of Benjamin, is to wipe out the whole tribe of Benjamin.
    God has not intended the tribe of Benjamin to be wiped out but to be punished which is why the tribe of Benjamin survived and remained as one of the 12 tribes of Israel. The concubine may be not of good clean character which was why she was punished....we do not know but anyway she was martyred so that the evil men were punished.... a moral act for the greater good. Perhaps God will pardon her for being a martr and reincarnate her soul.

    Judge20:18 And the children of Israel arose, and went up to the house of God, and asked counsel of God, and said, Which of us shall go up first to the battle against the children of Benjamin? And the LORD said, Judah shall go up first.

    Instead of wiping out the whole tribe of Benjamin, 600 men are allowed to live, and of course those men needed wives, so they went to Jabesh-Gilead and slaughtered all the inhabitants except for 400 virgins, but they still need 200 more virgins, so they go to Shiloh and capture 200 virgin girls who are dancing at a festival to the Lord.
    Wife kidnapping was an acceptable practice and tradition then..... do you want to stop their right and freedom to practice their tradition?

    Bottom line: The Biblegod was by no means a silent bystander, rather it was his command to the Hebrews to wipe out the tribe of Benjamin that led to the mass slaughter and rape of Jabesh-Gilead and Shiloh ... not to mention all the innocent people that just happened to be members of the tribe of Benjamin.

    The whole Judges narrative is one egregious humans rights violation after another, in which the Biblegod was a very active participant. God was not silent, and I was not putting words in his mouth.
    You are putting words into God's mouth because the tribe of Benjamin was not wiped out which means either God forgave the tribe of Benjamin or that he did not really intend to wipe out the tribe of Benjamin.

    Thank you Over four and a half years ago when I started my journey of discovery, I was in a similar place that you are now. Richard and I began asking the tough questions about all the problems with the biblical narrative, and we were committed to keeping our integrity while finding the answers. My intent was never to toss out the Biblegod, but the conclusions I came to left me no choice.

    When I began comparing the gods of other cultures to the Biblegod their similarities were astounding, also the patriarchal mindset of other societies was a direct reflection of how Hebrew men thought. Another huge influence in my decision to declare the Biblegod a construct of the male mind, was the extreme gender bias, and human rights violations that permeate the entire Bible. There was no way I could reconcile the atrocious behavior of the primitive men of the Bible, with a caring, loving god.
    My suggestion to you Rose and RAM is to see God as a super intelligent and powerful force and your eyes will be opened even wider....Believe me and God is not the atrocious God of the construct of the male mind as what you think He is.

    God Bless.
    Last edited by CWH; 06-19-2014 at 10:29 AM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

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