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  1. #11
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    When men accused women of being witches and then killed them they DID NOT misinterpret the Bible! The Bible clearly says that witches should be killed. It was solely up to the judgment of men whether or not a woman was a witch, so the teachings of the Bible caused men to commit atrocities.
    The teachings of the Bible told them to get rid of these evil people who were teaching deceptions and satanic influences and atrocities. It is the same reason why the US is intent in getting rid of every terrorist in the country and worldwide as they are into nothing good. Do you support witches and witchcrafts Rose?

    The main target of Hitlers hate was the Jews, even though he killed other people he thought were inferior also. The main reason that Jews were persecuted throughout history was because they were called "Christ killers", Hitler was no different in that respect.
    Hitler persecuted all inferior people thinking that it adheres to the principle of survival of the fittest and natural selection. Hitler hated the Jews for supposedly causing oppression to the local Germans by dominating the economy and careers. There is no evidence that Hitler persecuted the Jews because they were "Christ killers". No one believe Hitler was such a religious person.

    Evil men DID NOT have to misinterpret the Bible to commit atrocities against other humans, everything they need is already there. Yes, without the Bible wars would still be fought, but that's not the point I was making. Instead of making things better the Bible added to the problem and made things worse.
    Evil people misinterpreted and abused the scriptures for their selfish greed and power. This is evident in the Gospel when Jesus rebuked the Pharisees and Sadducees. No, the conquests and colonizations provided a way to spread the Gospels worldwide and thus provide opportunity for salvation. Would you like to fight that will provide eternal salvation to all or would you fight that provides no guarantee of salvation?

    As I said, instead of making the world a more peaceful place, Christianity (and other religions too) has only added to the war mentality of men...fight, kill, conquer to bring the world to Christ.
    It is in men's nature to fight, kill and conquer. This is evident even in animals and plants and germs if they are to survive. Without war to get rid of evil peoples and evil people like Hitler, PolPot etc. will the world be a more peaceful place?....I doubt so. If so, why fight terrorism, might as well let terrorists roam the streets and create more terrors.

    The reason women are denied equal human rights is because the men who wrote the Bible thought women were inferior to men and considered them to be their possessions.
    No the reason why women were denied equal human rights is because some men refused responsiblity to look after the womenfolks and protect them instead abused the power given to them. In the Bible, men were supposed to head over the women who were the weaker and more vulnerable sex i.e. to lead and be responsible and to protect them; some men over do it leading to oppression and some under do it leading to neglect.

    Of course the Bible condones slavery, why do you think it contains all those rules on the treatment of slaves?[INDENT]Lev.25:44-45Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour
    .
    Such rule is to ensure that every slave and their children will survive decently. They would not survive if they were to fend for themselves in the harsh realities of the ancient world. Imagine yourself throwing poverished and vulnerable people into the streets and expect them to survive or earn a decent living on their own. The "forever" in the Bible as we know, does not mean eternally but a long time.

    Yes, there were devout Christians who fought to free the slaves, just as there were devout Christians who thought it was their god given right to own slaves.
    Of course, there are two sides to a coin in almost everything; nothing surprising. The Bible taught that one should release the slaves after their "contract ended" in six years (Deuteronomy). Evil "prudent" men will not obey such instruction and will keep them as long as possible until they are not the worth.

    Let's pray that God will allow men to be more responsible towards women. Let's pray
    Last edited by CWH; 01-15-2013 at 02:14 AM.
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  2. #12
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    Is there anything in the teaching of Jesus which would cause men and women to do evil acts?


    Maybe man's evil is because of ignorance of the teaching of Jesus and the requirements of God.

    People misunderstand the way of God and take matters into their hand. We have examples of Abraham and Sarah and Jacob and others who did not let God do what He promised to do and instead they took matters into their own hands.

    Men and women use the word of God to make merchandise from other people; we are warned against this (2 Peter 2:2);And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you:

    Jesus said (Luke 12:51); 51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

    Jesus taught no-one to fight and even when Peter began to defend Jesus, he said (Matt 26:52):Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. 53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

    You will find the whole teaching from God and His Son, does nothing to advocate the evil acts which men commit.

    We have to understand why God permitted the mass killings that He ordered or allowed and knowing these things happened is no excuse nowadays for doing the same. Anyone who kills in the name of God these days would be regarded as a religious fanatic and highly delusional. We know that God and Jesus did not teach us to be violent in any way and much the opposite in that we should be passive and turn the other cheek.

    Matthew 5
    39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
    40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
    41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
    42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
    43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
    44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
    45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.


    Of course, the teaching of Jesus is used to support the abolishing of the death penalty as an act of killing though according to law of Moses or that of man, lawful killing for the punishment of a crime would be permitted. I doubt very much unless a murderer was very sincere and genuinely repented and proved by their actions that they had repented, and God would forgive them, but where there is absolutely no repentance, then God will not save them and has given them up as reprobates and therefore I think that in these cases a life for a life is fair.



    David

  3. #13
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    Whatever we understand by the phrase "familiar spirits", the fact is; we are taught not to get involved. (Leviticus 20:6) And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

    (Deuteronomy 18)
    10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
    11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
    12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
    13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.



    It is interesting when king Saul went to the witch of Endor. I think most witches and clairvoyants don't actually believe in what they do and are knowingly cheating people or those that believe in what they do are delusional. In the case of the witch of Endor, God made her see a vision of Samuel and this shocked her as she was not expecting to be able to do that. How else do you account for her shouting out when she saw Samuel. (1 Sam 28:11) Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice:

    Witches were obviously to be avoided by the Childen of Israel and we must do the same. Only God knows the future and has left on record what He has promised to do in the future. Man is not able to tell the future and therefore as with witches and soucerers, we are not not to believe in lying words; (Jer 7:3) Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place. 4 Trust ye not in lying words,



    As with all the teaching of God given to the Children of Israel, all of God's people are expected to do likewise, even now.


    David

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Is there anything in the teaching of Jesus which would cause men and women to do evil acts?
    Yes, because he taught people to obey everything in the Torah, and the Torah contains the problematic teachings Rose exposed in her opening post.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Maybe man's evil is because of ignorance of the teaching of Jesus and the requirements of God.
    We're not talking about man's evil. We are talking about the evils promoted as the teachings of God in the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    People misunderstand the way of God and take matters into their hand. We have examples of Abraham and Sarah and Jacob and others who did not let God do what He promised to do and instead they took matters into their own hands.
    How is that relevant? Rose is not making any claims about human evils per se. She is talking about evils that are promoted by the Bible, such as sexism and laws that command killing witches which led to the murder of innocent people because the Bible gave no way to know if someone was really a witch or not. Thus, the command to kill witches has no safety check to ensure that the innocent women are not murdered. And since the Bible teaches specifically that women are more easily deceived by the devil than men (which is the reason Paul gave for not allowing women to teach in 1 Tim 2:12) and this plays into the natural sexism which is strongly reinforced by the sexism of the Bible, many innocent women have died because of God's law. That's the problem. God's law is bad and has led to much suffering.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Men and women use the word of God to make merchandise from other people; we are warned against this (2 Peter 2:2);And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you:
    That is true. But it has nothing to do with Rose's point. She is talking about the problems with the Bible itself which exacerbate the moral problems that already exist amongst humans. The Bible didn't help - it made things worse because it reinforced sexism and superstitions about witches.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    You will find the whole teaching from God and His Son, does nothing to advocate the evil acts which men commit.
    That's not true. There are many teachings in the Bible that advocate evil acts. The most obvious is the slaughter of whole groups of people for the purpose of kidnapping virgins to be used as wives. This happened twice in the Bible, and God fully participated and approved in both cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    We have to understand why God permitted the mass killings that He ordered or allowed and knowing these things happened is no excuse nowadays for doing the same. Anyone who kills in the name of God these days would be regarded as a religious fanatic and highly delusional. We know that God and Jesus did not teach us to be violent in any way and much the opposite in that we should be passive and turn the other cheek.
    I am always amazed how quickly Christians forget that God is sovereign when it suits their purposes. God did not "permit" the mass killings - he COMMANDED them!

    Your assertion that "God and Jesus did not teach us to be violent in any way" is contrary to Scripture. For example:

    Psalm 144:1 Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:

    And of course the genocidal commands:

    1 Samuel 15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Is there anything in the teaching of Jesus which would cause men and women to do evil acts?


    Maybe man's evil is because of ignorance of the teaching of Jesus and the requirements of God.


    David
    Hi David,

    I can think of a few verses off the top of my head where what Jesus said could easily be applied in evil way.
    Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

    This has been interpreted in many different ways, but the plain reading implies that a person must put aside all their concerns for the welfare of their family if they want to be a disciple of Jesus. Plainly put it means a person must abandon their families.
    Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

    This verse implies that if a person wants to be a true follower of Christ they must deny any concerns for themselves while taking up the burden of life. Sad to say, when people hate themselves they tend to abuse themselves and others.
    Luke 9:60-62 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house. And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

    Here Jesus says that even if a person wishes to bid their families farewell instead of just abandoning them, they are not fit for the kingdom of god. All these verses go directly against the Golden Rule which says one is to love others as they love themselves. Not only does Jesus tell anyone who wants to be his follower to hate themselves, but they also must hate their families. In my book that is considered an evil teaching.

    Take care,
    Rose
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi David,

    I can think of a few verses off the top of my head where what Jesus said could easily be applied in evil way.
    Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

    This has been interpreted in many different ways, but the plain reading implies that a person must put aside all their concerns for the welfare of their family if they want to be a disciple of Jesus. Plainly put it means a person must abandon their families.
    Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

    This verse implies that if a person wants to be a true follower of Christ they must deny any concerns for themselves while taking up the burden of life. Sad to say, when people hate themselves they tend to abuse themselves and others.
    Luke 9:60-62 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house. And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

    Here Jesus says that even if a person wishes to bid their families farewell instead of just abandoning them, they are not fit for the kingdom of god. All these verses go directly against the Golden Rule which says one is to love others as they love themselves. Not only does Jesus tell anyone who wants to be his follower to hate themselves, but they also must hate their families. In my book that is considered an evil teaching.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Hello Rose and Richard
    I will answer both your posts in this one post.

    First of all re the quote from Psalms. Of course King David and those who were at times told to go to war by God and kill reprobates as God commanded them would have learned how to fight. We cannot take those accounts of war, which God has put on record for our learning and take those as our excuse to commit warfare against people we might not like. This is the abuse of scripture which we have seen happen. Reading of killings in the newspapers and encyclopedias should not make us become killers. Israel were to be held guiltless for the killings which God commanded them to do and for which God took responsibility for killing reprobates. At all other and with the these exceptions prescribed by the law in executing punishment, then the commandment; "Thou shalt not kill" applies to everyone. This is what the God is teaching us and yet people kill, murder one another for trivial reasons. The fault is with man and not God.

    As for the word "hate", we have to get this in context and it might not mean the same as we think is does today. If my parents practiced idolatry, then I might hate what my parents do and hate my parents for doing so. I can still honor my parents in other respects as the commandment says we should do. If my parents are God-fearing which is what all of God's people were expected to be, then children were expected to honor their parents the same as all people are expected to honor God. When Jesus used the word "hate" if does not mean that Jesus condoned killing or abusing parents. Whatever God hates and idolatry is one of the hates of God, then God's people should hate the same things.

    Also, I think we have to consider the word "hate" in the context of having to make a choice. It is the same as serving God or mammon. Just as it is not possible to serve both and a choice as to which to serve has to be made, so it is with the love shown to Jesus. If we have to make a choice between serving Jesus first and serving someone else first, then we have to choose who to serve first. In this context, we can take the word "hate" to mean the same as "reject" which is the opposite from who/what we choose/accept. If it is necessary to make a choice between putting Jesus first instead of self or family or friends, then I have to put Jesus first. This does not mean I do not ever serve my family. Jesus is not saying we have to give up our parental responsibilities towards our spouse or our children or look after our parents. If we are put in a position whereby God will take care of our responsibilities, and we have no-one else to worry about, then we should always put serving Jesus first. This is why if we are given the choice and we have a strong enough will to overcome the desire to marry and have a family, then as Paul writes (1 Cor 7:8); I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. 9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. By remaining unmarried, that would leave the person with more freedom to serve Jesus. It is human nature to serve ourselves without putting God first. This why Jesus showed in his life that he put doing the will of his Heavenly Father first. It is the same when Jesus said; "let the dead bury the dead" when replying to the man who first wanted to go and bury his father. We can all make excuses for not putting God first, and then they are excuses for doing something that we do not want to make our priority.

    When Martha needed help and Mary was listening to Jesus instead of helping Martha, Jesus did not criticize Mary for neglecting to help Martha. Jesus replied to Martha (Luke 10:41);Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: 42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.
    These things have to be got into perspective and so the word "hate" must be taken in the correct way. Jesus is not teaching us to harbor hatred which would lead us to act in ways which are contrary to other teachings. We are taught to be passive and turn the other cheek and let God be the final judge. Wherever possible, everyone should have love for one another. Do people do this? No!. The problem is with man and not God.

    All the best

    David
    Last edited by David M; 01-17-2013 at 05:27 AM.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Rose and Richard
    I will answer both your posts in this one post.

    First of all re the quote from Psalms. Of course King David and those who were at times told to go to war by God and kill reprobates as God commanded them would have learned how to fight. We cannot take those accounts of war, which God has put on record for our learning and take those as our excuse to commit warfare against people we might not like. This is the abuse of scripture which we have seen happen. Reading of killings in the newspapers and encyclopedias should not make us become killers. Israel were to be held guiltless for the killings which God commanded them to do and for which God took responsibility for killing reprobates. At all other and with the these exceptions prescribed by the law in executing punishment, then the commandment; "Thou shalt not kill" applies to everyone. This is what the God is teaching us and yet people kill, murder one another for trivial reasons. The fault is with man and not God.
    Hi David,

    As we have said many times the Bible is filled with god commanding violent acts against people, including the killing of innocent children and the capture and raping of women. What the Bible teaches us is that it's okay to kill people that worship others gods and it's okay to take women and rape them if you desire them.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    As for the word "hate", we have to get this in context and it might not mean the same as we think is does today. If my parents practiced idolatry, then I might hate what my parents do and hate my parents for doing so. I can still honor my parents in other respects as the commandment says we should do. If my parents are God-fearing which is what all of God's people were expected to be, then children were expected to honor their parents the same as all people are expected to honor God. When Jesus used the word "hate" if does not mean that Jesus condoned killing or abusing parents. Whatever God hates and idolatry is one of the hates of God, then God's people should hate the same things.

    Also, I think we have to consider the word "hate" in the context of having to make a choice. It is the same as serving God or mammon. Just as it is not possible to serve both and a choice as to which to serve has to be made, so it is with the love shown to Jesus. If we have to make a choice between serving Jesus first and serving someone else first, then we have to choose who to serve first. In this context, we can take the word "hate" to mean the same as "reject" which is the opposite from who/what we choose/accept. If it is necessary to make a choice between putting Jesus first instead of self or family or friends, then I have to put Jesus first. This does not mean I do not ever serve my family. Jesus is not saying we have to give up our parental responsibilities towards our spouse or our children or look after our parents. If we are put in a position whereby God will take care of our responsibilities, and we have no-one else to worry about, then we should always put serving Jesus first. This is why if we are given the choice and we have a strong enough will to overcome the desire to marry and have a family, then as Paul writes (1 Cor 7:8); I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. 9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. By remaining unmarried, that would leave the person with more freedom to serve Jesus. It is human nature to serve ourselves without putting God first. This why Jesus showed in his life that he put doing the will of his Heavenly Father first. It is the same when Jesus said; "let the dead bury the dead" when replying to the man who first wanted to go and bury his father. We can all make excuses for not putting God first, and then they are excuses for doing something that we do not want to make our priority.
    What Jesus is teaching is that if you want to be his follower, you must put aside all concern and caring for everyone including yourself, and then devote yourself entirely to the spreading of the Gospel.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    When Martha needed help and Mary was listening to Jesus instead of helping Martha, Jesus did not criticize Mary for neglecting to help Martha. Jesus replied to Martha (Luke 10:41);Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: 42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.
    These things have to be got into perspective and so the word "hate" must be taken in the correct way. Jesus is not teaching us to harbor hatred which would lead us to act in ways which are contrary to other teachings. We are taught to be passive and turn the other cheek and let God be the final judge. Wherever possible, everyone should have love for one another. Do people do this? No!. The problem is with man and not God.

    All the best

    David
    What Jesus was telling Martha is that the best way was not to care for the needs of others, but rather to focus solely on worshiping god.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi David,

    As we have said many times the Bible is filled with god commanding violent acts against people, including the killing of innocent children and the capture and raping of women. What the Bible teaches us is that it's okay to kill people that worship others gods and it's okay to take women and rape them if you desire them.
    Hello Rose

    The Bible only teaches us that it was OK for God's people to kill reprobates when they were given specific instructions by God to do so. They did not have carte blanche to do as they pleased. It is God who takes vengeance and as God says; "vengeance belongeth to me". You forget that the people already living in the Promised Land would killed or subjected the Hebrews to slavery given half a chance. That seems to be the culture of the day.

    God says very plainly that it is not OK to worship idols. If that is what people want to do, then God will not save them. In that case, God does not have to show reprobates mercy. If you support idolators and reprobates, I guess you support terrorists and see nothing wrong in terrorists doing what they want to do in order to get their own way. Anyone who uses the stories of war recorded in the Bible to think they can go to war in the name of God is not understanding the requirements of God. You can ignore the basic requirements God expects of man, but it does not change what God has said. You know as well as me the words of Micah regarding what God requires (Micah 6:8): He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? James writes (1:27) Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.. There are very few compared to the billions in the world who are doing what God requires.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    What Jesus is teaching is that if you want to be his follower, you must put aside all concern and caring for everyone including yourself, and then devote yourself entirely to the spreading of the Gospel.
    Of course this is not true. Jesus showed by example that he cared for the poor and had compassion for people whom he cured of their sickness. Jesus knew that after he departed to go to be with his Heavenly Father that the poor would still be here for the disciples to care for (Mark 14:7); For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    What Jesus was telling Martha is that the best way was not to care for the needs of others, but rather to focus solely on worshiping god.
    Did Jesus tell Martha to stop what she was doing and do as Mary was doing? No! Jesus was teaching those who would listen to him and was not holding a service for worshiping God. Jesus did not go around formally worshiping God all of the time, so your remark is plain wrong and a distortion of the truth. Formal worship of God has its place, but it is not the sole total objective if a person to continually worship God in a formal way. Even working for an earthly master, this should be done as though working for God who is the higher master and while no-one is saved by our works, it is works that demonstrate a person's faith. Worshiping God can be also be seen by the things we do and say. Jesus said that when the master returns (Matt 24:46); Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. This was said not in the context of formally worshiping God.

    One can give praise to God and serve God outside formal worship in church. So Rose, once again, I have to balance your one-sided remarks.

    All the best

    David
    Last edited by David M; 01-17-2013 at 01:20 PM.

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