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  1. #1
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    If it were not for…

    Setting aside all the loss of life that is recorded in the pages of the Bible, I want to focus on how the teachings of Scripture, interpreted in various ways by men, has been the direct cause of the deaths of hundreds of millions of people throughout history and the loss of human rights for billions more.



    1. If it were not for Exo.22:18 “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” Hundreds of thousands of women accused of being witches would not have lost their lives, or suffered torture at the hands of fanatical Christian men.
    2. If it were not for the denunciation of the Jews as Christ killers, men like Hitler would not have slaughtered over 60 million people because of their race.
    3. If it were not for the Bible hundreds of thousands of people would not have lost their lives because they were accused of being heretics.
    4. If it were not for the Bible, millions of lives would not have been lost because of the inquisition and the crusades.
    5. If it were not for the Bible all the battles fought by Christians to promote their religion would not have been fought.
    6. If it were not for the Bible all of the nations that killed people because they were Christians would not have done so.
    7. If it were not for all the biblical verses that call for women to be in subjection to men, the human rights of untold millions of women would not have been denied.
    8. If it were not for the Bible condoning slavery, countless slave owners would not have had what they thought was god’s approval of their slave ownership.



    All in all, the teachings of the Bible have been the direct cause of the loss of hundreds of millions of lives and the suffering of countless more. Could not an omniscient creator have found a better way of revealing his existence, than through a book whose interpretation has caused so much blood shed and suffering throughout the history of its existence? The Bible is by no means the only sacred text that has wreaked havoc and destruction, but it has caused more than its fair share. If the Bible truly was inspired by a supreme deity, all it would have taken to change the course of history would be for it to be a book that promotes the equality of all humans regardless of race or gender. Instead we have a book that is filled with division, and denial of human rights, all done to promote a belief in a particular deity. Something to think about…


    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  2. #2
    if human beings would stop thinking they know what the bible says and then using their wickedness as justification for evil then we can stop having people that believe it was the bibles fault for the murderers and tortures of people that claim they know God but prove by actions that they don't. people don't like taking personal responsibility a lot of the times, it is easier to blame other things for their own faults and stupidity. the libertarian spirit speaks of taking responsibility for ones actions rather than letting others tell you and force you to do things. however most human beings think they need to pay taxes even though it invoke an evil of enslavement which then greedy people use to make wars. if human stupidity does not let a book breed evil in their heart then they will let other things do it.

    since the bible clearly shows contradictions that only a mad man would believe to do in the literal sense, it comes down to the human being and the evil or good in his heart to function and act and treat others.

    the bible had some things written in it that contradict itself such as "thou shalt not kill" and then it goes on later to say the most absurd of things such as "you must put to death anyone who does not rest on the sabbath", who in their right mind would believe that a God that ordered to not kill also said to kill? it is absurd and that is what men get out of the bible.

    to this day the Christians argue over the dumbest of things such as "should women be allowed to preach" because they understand the bible from the letter which kills rather than the spirit that gives life. -.-

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linnorm Noxot View Post
    if human beings would stop thinking they know what the bible says and then using their wickedness as justification for evil then we can stop having people that believe it was the bibles fault for the murderers and tortures of people that claim they know God but prove by actions that they don't. people don't like taking personal responsibility a lot of the times, it is easier to blame other things for their own faults and stupidity. the libertarian spirit speaks of taking responsibility for ones actions rather than letting others tell you and force you to do things. however most human beings think they need to pay taxes even though it invoke an evil of enslavement which then greedy people use to make wars. if human stupidity does not let a book breed evil in their heart then they will let other things do it.

    since the bible clearly shows contradictions that only a mad man would believe to do in the literal sense, it comes down to the human being and the evil or good in his heart to function and act and treat others.

    the bible had some things written in it that contradict itself such as "thou shalt not kill" and then it goes on later to say the most absurd of things such as "you must put to death anyone who does not rest on the sabbath", who in their right mind would believe that a God that ordered to not kill also said to kill? it is absurd and that is what men get out of the bible.

    to this day the Christians argue over the dumbest of things such as "should women be allowed to preach" because they understand the bible from the letter which kills rather than the spirit that gives life. -.-
    Hello Linnorm,

    The bottom line is that if you believe the Bible was inspired by god, then every last entry was done with his full knowledge. Since god is suppose to be omniscient, then he knew what the outcome of man's interpretation would be and intentionally allowed it. Why would an omnipotent deity allow a book to be written in his name telling humans to do things that are clearly immoral and unjust, if that was not what he believed? It can't be both ways, either the Bible was written the way it was because that is what god wanted (which makes him a moral monster), or it's a totally man (male) made book (which is what I believe).

    All the best,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hello Linnorm,

    The bottom line is that if you believe the Bible was inspired by god, then every last entry was done with his full knowledge. Since god is suppose to be omniscient, then he knew what the outcome of man's interpretation would be and intentionally allowed it. Why would an omnipotent deity allow a book to be written in his name telling humans to do things that are clearly immoral and unjust, if that was not what he believed? It can't be both ways, either the Bible was written the way it was because that is what god wanted (which makes him a moral monster), or it's a totally man (male) made book (which is what I believe).

    All the best,
    Rose
    Hello Rose

    "Thou shalt not kill" is a personal commandment. Anyone in their right mind should not want to kill another person, but some do and in this way they are breaking the law. A llaw "thous shalt not kill" ought to have no need to be written and that law ought to be kept by everyone, but not everyone does that. Few people keep any law fully. We are all guilty of breaking laws we think are non consequential. There was no written law and Cain killed Abel. Even if we did not have the Bible, a man-made law would have to be written; "thou shalt not kill another human being". What then happens when someone does? The answer is, the law has to be upheld and if the law prescribes that if someone kills another person, then that person should forfeit their life. It is a pity, the laws of the land have been watered down by humanists.

    It is a different matter to kill as the law prescribes. If the law prescribes death as a punishment, then someone had to pronounce judgment under the law and someone had to execute it. Under the Mosaic law, the judges ordered the death penalty for breaking the law relating to the Sabbath where the law prescribed the death penalty and people knew what the law was. If the person broke the law, they knew what the punishment was. It is a pity that the death penalty is not in force today where there is absolutely no mitigating circumstances and no error in the matter of who the guilty person is.

    I know you think death by stoning was barbaric, but you have to consider the lack of alternative methods available in those days by which the death penalty could be exercised without laying guilt on any one person. Stoning was the easy solution, because there was an ample supply of stones lying all around and anyone picking up a stone and throwing it would not be identified as throwing the killer-stone.

    When the Bible is correctly understood, apparent contradictions like that associated with "killing" is easily resolved. The Bible is not the "rubbish book" that it is made out to be by those who deny it and do not try to understand it.

    All the best

    David

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Rose

    "Thou shalt not kill" is a personal commandment. Anyone in their right mind should not want to kill another person, but some do and in this way they are breaking the law. A llaw "thous shalt not kill" ought to have no need to be written and that law ought to be kept by everyone, but not everyone does that. Few people keep any law fully. We are all guilty of breaking laws we think are non consequential. There was no written law and Cain killed Abel. Even if we did not have the Bible, a man-made law would have to be written; "thou shalt not kill another human being". What then happens when someone does? The answer is, the law has to be upheld and if the law prescribes that if someone kills another person, then that person should forfeit their life. It is a pity, the laws of the land have been watered down by humanists.
    Hi David,

    I am immensely grateful that the laws of the Bible have been "watered down", if not men would still be stoning homosexuals and women who are not virgins on their wedding night. Many biblical laws are immoral and unjust especially for women, even the law that states "thou shalt not kill" contradicts itself when god continually commands the Hebrews to slaughter men, women and children.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    It is a different matter to kill as the law prescribes. If the law prescribes death as a punishment, then someone had to pronounce judgment under the law and someone had to execute it. Under the Mosaic law, the judges ordered the death penalty for breaking the law relating to the Sabbath where the law prescribed the death penalty and people knew what the law was. If the person broke the law, they knew what the punishment was. It is a pity that the death penalty is not in force today where there is absolutely no mitigating circumstances and no error in the matter of who the guilty person is.

    I know you think death by stoning was barbaric, but you have to consider the lack of alternative methods available in those days by which the death penalty could be exercised without laying guilt on any one person. Stoning was the easy solution, because there was an ample supply of stones lying all around and anyone picking up a stone and throwing it would not be identified as throwing the killer-stone.
    Breaking a law and getting punished says nothing about whether the law was just or not. The Bible is filled with unjust laws that denied people their human rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    When the Bible is correctly understood, apparent contradictions like that associated with "killing" is easily resolved. The Bible is not the "rubbish book" that it is made out to be by those who deny it and do not try to understand it.

    All the best

    David
    People correctly understand the Bible to: allow slavery, allow the taking of sex slaves, allow women to be owned as property, allow the killing of children, allow slaves to be severely beaten, allow people to be killed for breaking minor laws, and I could go on and on...

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hello Linnorm,

    The bottom line is that if you believe the Bible was inspired by god, then every last entry was done with his full knowledge. Since god is suppose to be omniscient, then he knew what the outcome of man's interpretation would be and intentionally allowed it. Why would an omnipotent deity allow a book to be written in his name telling humans to do things that are clearly immoral and unjust, if that was not what he believed? It can't be both ways, either the Bible was written the way it was because that is what god wanted (which makes him a moral monster), or it's a totally man (male) made book (which is what I believe).

    All the best,
    Rose
    Rose don't seems to understand what Linnorm says about God allowing free will. God did not program humans to be like robot. If we are robots then we will do according to what is programmed and we will not have any understanding of what we are doing. God gave us free-will to discern what is right and what is wrong; his goal is in the "harvesting" of righteous men and women for His Kingdom.

    What's wrong with God telling or inspiring men to write down what He said? Don't bosses did that also? What difference would that make if God wrote the Bible? Would evil men and men whose knowledge is imperfect misinterpreted what was written in it? Even if God wrote the Bible, will people still believe it or will people still ignore it? Obviously, many will; this is exactly what is happening today. Why is this so? .... because of our rebellious nature; people want to believe what they believe and do what they themselves think is right and good.

    Let's pray for God to help us discern right from wrong. : Let's pray:
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  7. #7
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    Setting aside all the loss of life that is recorded in the pages of the Bible, I want to focus on how the teachings of Scripture, interpreted in various ways by men, has been the direct cause of the deaths of hundreds of millions of people throughout history and the loss of human rights for billions more.



    1. If it were not for Exo.22:18 “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” Hundreds of thousands of women accused of being witches would not have lost their lives, or suffered torture at the hands of fanatical Christian men.
    2. If it were not for the denunciation of the Jews as Christ killers, men like Hitler would not have slaughtered over 60 million people because of their race.
    3. If it were not for the Bible hundreds of thousands of people would not have lost their lives because they were accused of being heretics.
    4. If it were not for the Bible, millions of lives would not have been lost because of the inquisition and the crusades.
    5. If it were not for the Bible all the battles fought by Christians to promote their religion would not have been fought.
    6. If it were not for the Bible all of the nations that killed people because they were Christians would not have done so.
    7. If it were not for all the biblical verses that call for women to be in subjection to men, the human rights of untold millions of women would not have been denied.
    8. If it were not for the Bible condoning slavery, countless slave owners would not have had what they thought was god’s approval of their slave ownership.



    All in all, the teachings of the Bible have been the direct cause of the loss of hundreds of millions of lives and the suffering of countless more. Could not an omniscient creator have found a better way of revealing his existence, than through a book whose interpretation has caused so much blood shed and suffering throughout the history of its existence? The Bible is by no means the only sacred text that has wreaked havoc and destruction, but it has caused more than its fair share. If the Bible truly was inspired by a supreme deity, all it would have taken to change the course of history would be for it to be a book that promotes the equality of all humans regardless of race or gender. Instead we have a book that is filled with division, and denial of human rights, all done to promote a belief in a particular deity. Something to think about…

    Rose
    There are so much negative misinterpretations of the Bible when the evils were obviously caused by evil men and their devises. You are being biased against Christianity:

    [*]If it were not for Exo.22:18 “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” Hundreds of thousands of women accused of being witches would not have lost their lives, or suffered torture at the hands of fanatical Christian men.
    Evil men misused or misinterpreted the Bible to create atrocities to fellow men and women. Are there really witches or is it the superstitious belief of men? The "witch" in Exo. 22:18 is understood to be people who practices witchcraft, soothsaying and satanic activities. Do prudent people support witchcrafts, soothsayings and satanic activities?

    [
    *]If it were not for the denunciation of the Jews as Christ killers, men like Hitler would not have slaughtered over 60 million people because of their race.
    The Nazi concept of the master race is due to their belief in Darwinism's survival of the fittest and natural selection. It is Darwinism that corrupted the Nazi. The Nazis will kill anyone, Jews or not if they didn't belong to the "master" race. Besides Jews, the Nazis also killed gypsies, the insane, homosexuals, communists, dissents and anyone who opposed their evil regime.

    http://www.trueorigin.org/holocaust.asp

    [*]If it were not for the Bible hundreds of thousands of people would not have lost their lives because they were accused of being heretics.
    Evil men misused or misinterpreted the Bible to create atrocities to fellow men and women. They did not follow the advice that vengeance belongs to the Lord. There were lives lost by people accusing of heretics in other religions as well not just the Bible.

    [*]If it were not for the Bible, millions of lives would not have been lost because of the inquisition and the crusades.
    Evil men misused or misinterpreted the Bible to create atrocities to fellow men and women. Just like Paul when he persecuted the Christians thinking it was a good and rightful thing. Same as I would say that millions of lives would not be lost if there are no Romans or Greeks or Babylonians, Mongols, Muslims, Communists, Terrorists, Freedom-fighters etc. who would conquer other people to spread their culture and beliefs. Without the Bible, wars will still be fought..is there any difference?

    [*]If it were not for the Bible all the battles fought by Christians to promote their religion would not have been fought.
    If it is not for power-crazy men to promote their culture, greed and beliefs there will not be any killing of men and women in wars. Without the Bible, wars will still be fought..is there any difference? Religious wars were fought by other religions and by non-religious people as well not just by Christians. On the other hand, Christianity was spread faster and further with the wars fought, thus provide more people the opportunity for salvation.

    [*] If it were not for the Bible all of the nations that killed people because they were Christians would not have done so.
    Throughout history, people will still kill people regardless if they were Christians or not. Most major wars such as WW1 and WW2 have nothing to do with Christianity. Faithful Christians killed will be rewarded.

    [*]If it were not for all the biblical verses that call for women to be in subjection to men, the human rights of untold millions of women would not have been denied.
    If there are no biblical verses that call men to be responsible over women and to protect them, humans will not be able to survive if women folks were killed or neglected. Evil men abused such responsibility over women for selfish reasons which caused women to be denied of human rights.

    [*]If it were not for the Bible condoning slavery, countless slave owners would not have had what they thought was god’s approval of their slave ownership.
    It was devout Christians who fought for anti-slavery in the United States. The Bible did not condone slavery, men did as slavery was a norm throughout the ancient world. God taught the Jews to treat slaves more kindly knowing that eventually slavery will be abolished. Slaves were usually captured enemies and as enemies they do not deserve the rights of the citizens.... same as prisoners. Where is the justice if enemies who once tried to kill and subjugate the citizens, the land and properties were given treatment as good as the citizens?

    Let's pray that men and women do not misinterpret the Bible. Let's pray
    Last edited by CWH; 01-14-2013 at 07:19 PM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    There are so much negative misinterpretations of the Bible when the evils were obviously caused by evil men and their devises. You are being biased against Christianity:


    Evil men misused or misinterpreted the Bible to create atrocities to fellow men and women. Are there really witches or is it the superstitious belief of men? The "witch" in Exo. 22:18 is understood to be people who practices witchcraft, soothsaying and satanic activities. Do prudent people support witchcrafts, soothsayings and satanic activities?
    When men accused women of being witches and then killed them they DID NOT misinterpret the Bible! The Bible clearly says that witches should be killed. It was solely up to the judgment of men whether or not a woman was a witch, so the teachings of the Bible caused men to commit atrocities.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    The Nazi concept of the master race is due to their belief in Darwinism's survival of the fittest and natural selection. It is Darwinism that corrupted the Nazi. The Nazis will kill anyone, Jews or not if they didn't belong to the "master" race. Besides Jews, the Nazis also killed gypsies, the insane, homosexuals, communists, dissents and anyone who opposed their evil regime.

    http://www.trueorigin.org/holocaust.asp
    The main target of Hitlers hate was the Jews, even though he killed other people he thought were inferior also. The main reason that Jews were persecuted throughout history was because they were called "Christ killers", Hitler was no different in that respect.


    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Evil men misused or misinterpreted the Bible to create atrocities to fellow men and women. They did not follow the advice that vengeance belongs to the Lord. There were lives lost by people accusing of heretics in other religions as well not just the Bible.


    Evil men misused or misinterpreted the Bible to create atrocities to fellow men and women. Just like Paul when he persecuted the Christians thinking it was a good and rightful thing. Same as I would say that millions of lives would not be lost if there are no Romans or Greeks or Babylonians, Mongols, Muslims, Communists, Terrorists, Freedom-fighters etc. who would conquer other people to spread their culture and beliefs. Without the Bible, wars will still be fought..is there any difference?
    Evil men DID NOT have to misinterpret the Bible to commit atrocities against other humans, everything they need is already there. Yes, without the Bible wars would still be fought, but that's not the point I was making. Instead of making things better the Bible added to the problem and made things worse.


    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    If it is not for power-crazy men to promote their culture, greed and beliefs there will not be any killing of men and women in wars. Without the Bible, wars will still be fought..is there any difference? Religious wars were fought by other religions and by non-religious people as well not just by Christians. On the other hand, Christianity was spread faster and further with the wars fought, thus provide more people the opportunity for salvation.


    Throughout history, people will still kill people regardless if they were Christians or not. Most major wars such as WW1 and WW2 have nothing to do with Christianity. Faithful Christians killed will be rewarded.
    As I said, instead of making the world a more peaceful place, Christianity (and other religions too) has only added to the war mentality of men...fight, kill, conquer to bring the world to Christ.


    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    If there are no biblical verses that call men to be responsible over women and to protect them, humans will not be able to survive if women folks were killed or neglected. Evil men abused such responsibility over women for selfish reasons which caused women to be denied of human rights.
    The reason women are denied equal human rights is because the men who wrote the Bible thought women were inferior to men and considered them to be their possessions.


    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    It was devout Christians who fought for anti-slavery in the United States. The Bible did not condone slavery, men did as slavery was a norm throughout the ancient world. God taught the Jews to treat slaves more kindly knowing that eventually slavery will be abolished. Slaves were usually captured enemies and as enemies they do not deserve the rights of the citizens.... same as prisoners. Where is the justice if enemies who once tried to kill and subjugate the citizens, the land and properties were given treatment as good as the citizens?

    Let's pray that men and women do not misinterpret the Bible. Let's pray
    Of course the Bible condones slavery, why do you think it contains all those rules on the treatment of slaves?
    Lev.25:44-45Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

    Yes, there were devout Christians who fought to free the slaves, just as there were devout Christians who thought it was their god given right to own slaves.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Rose don't seems to understand what Linnorm says about God allowing free will. God did not program humans to be like robot. If we are robots then we will do according to what is programmed and we will not have any understanding of what we are doing. God gave us free-will to discern what is right and what is wrong; his goal is in the "harvesting" of righteous men and women for His Kingdom.

    What's wrong with God telling or inspiring men to write down what He said? Don't bosses did that also? What difference would that make if God wrote the Bible? Would evil men and men whose knowledge is imperfect misinterpreted what was written in it? Even if God wrote the Bible, will people still believe it or will people still ignore it? Obviously, many will; this is exactly what is happening today. Why is this so? .... because of our rebellious nature; people want to believe what they believe and do what they themselves think is right and good.

    Let's pray for God to help us discern right from wrong. : Let's pray:
    It has nothing to do with humans being programmed like robots. Human free will means nothing if god is ultimately in control of everything, because his will is going to be accomplished no matter what.

    If god truly did write the Bible he sure put a lot of immoral and unjust stuff in there.

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    It has nothing to do with humans being programmed like robots. Human free will means nothing if god is ultimately in control of everything, because his will is going to be accomplished no matter what.

    If god truly did write the Bible he sure put a lot of immoral and unjust stuff in there.

    Rose
    You still don't understand that free will is given so as to assess people if they would make the grade necessary to inhabit the Kingdom of heaven. It is like an examination test to see which students will go into a prestigious university. If all of us are robots there is no need to have this test as there will be no consciousness of knowledge or to do evil or to do good. God is all knowing but I do not believe that God knows who will made the grade to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, if not why the need to separate "the goats from the sheep" and "wheats and the tares", "the good and bad fishes" etc. as noted in many of His parables?

    Do you want to be a programmed robot or do you want to be a free will human, Rose? Do you want good people live in your country or do you want evil people to live in your country?

    It doesn't matter if God wrote the Bible or not, it is humans who would misinterpreted or abused the scriptures in the Bible consciously or unconsciously. As such Jesus rebuked the Pharisees and the Sadducees for misinterpreting and abusing the scriptures as evident in the Gospels. What was noted in the Bible as immoral and unjust is just our own misinterpretations. Even if God wrote the Bible, would you still believe it? Obviously No, from the way you bash the God of the Bible.

    let's pray: May God allow us to know his profound wisdom.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

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