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  1. #1
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    The MOST Important Video About Israel You'll Ever See!

    I came across this video on Youtube about Israel. I thought this is the best section to place this.

    It is an interesting video, because it is presented from a Jewish perspective and how some modern Jews are seeing the miracle that is Israel fulfilled in God's prophecies.


    Here is the link:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydwxy9yqhzM




    David

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I came across this video on Youtube about Israel. I thought this is the best section to place this.

    It is an interesting video, because it is presented from a Jewish perspective and how some modern Jews are seeing the miracle that is Israel fulfilled in God's prophecies.


    Here is the link:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydwxy9yqhzM

    David
    Hey there David,

    Thanks for posting that interesting video. I can see why folks not very familiar with Biblical prophecy might think the modern secular state of Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy, but that's not really true. The video makes a lot of claims that are not well founded and that confuse and mislead people. Most, if not all, verses that speak of a "regathering" of Israel were written in reference to the regathering after the Babylonian exile that happened in 519 BC. There are no prophecies in the New Testament about a yet future regathering of carnal Israel to the physical land of their ancestors. This is a radical break from the pattern seen everywhere in Scripture which I explained in my post Continuity of Prophetic History Confirms Preterism. Here is what I wrote (way back in August 2008 when I was still a Christian):

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    There is a continuity of prophetic history from Genesis to Revelation. The primary events in the history of Israel were predicted with numerical precision. I just fell upon this idea yesterday. Here are my first thoughts:

    In Genesis God predicted the 400 years affliction in Egypt:
    Genesis 15:13-14 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; 14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
    This was fulfilled in Exodus:
    Exodus 12:40-41 Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years. 41 And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt.

    In Numbers God predicted the 40 years of the wandering, and the reason for it, and that He would fulfill His promise to their children but destroy the faithless adults:
    Numbers 14:30-35 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun. 31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised. 32 But as for you, your carcases, they shall fall in this wilderness. 33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness. 34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise. 35 I the LORD have said, I will surely do it unto all this evil congregation, that are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.

    Jeremiah predicted the 70 years captivity in Babylon:
    Jeremiah 25:11-12 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. 12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.
    Jeremiah 29:10 For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.
    Note that in all three cases God declared both the duration of the captivity as well as the promise of good things that would come when the captivity was completed.

    Daniel predicted the 490 years unto the coming of Christ and the destruction of the Temple:
    Daniel 9:24-27 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
    Christ confirmed the prophesies of Daniel and even quoted him by name in the Olivet Discourse. Both the prophecies of Daniel and Christ were completely fulfilled in the events of the first century, as predicted. The words of Christ are TRUE!
    Luke 21:20-23 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people [of this generation].
    The preterist view of Revelation confirms the fulfillment of those prophecies in the destruction of Jerusalem, the "great harlot" that chose servitude to Rome over servitude to their God YHWH in the day of His visitation.

    Thus we have a continuous prophetic history from Genesis to Revelation with numerically specific predictions and their fulfillment as confirmed by Scripture and History.

    The Bible contains no prophecies of a future plan for carnal Israel, let alone numerically precise prophecies coupled with explicit promises of what God was going to do when the predicted time span was completed.

    This seems to be an extremely powerful confirmation of the doctrine that all the prophecies of the Old Testament were fulfilled in the first century coming of Christ, establishment of His Church, and final judgment upon apostate Jerusalem, as it is written:
    Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
    Richard
    So what do you think of this? Is it a good argument?

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  3. #3
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    Hello Richard

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Hey there David,

    Thanks for posting that interesting video. I can see why folks not very familiar with Biblical prophecy might think the modern secular state of Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy, but that's not really true. The video makes a lot of claims that are not well founded and that confuse and mislead people. Most, if not all, verses that speak of a "regathering" of Israel were written in reference to the regathering after the Babylonian exile that happened in 519 BC. There are no prophecies in the New Testament about a yet future regathering of carnal Israel to the physical land of their ancestors. This is a radical break from the pattern seen everywhere in Scripture which I explained in my post Continuity of Prophetic History Confirms Preterism. Here is what I wrote (way back in August 2008 when I was still a Christian):

    So what do you think of this? Is it a good argument?

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    To answer the last question first, I do not agree with the whole of your post. I have copied your post below and will work through it section by section and answer in the post. I have been watching more videos on the return and history of Israel and it is a miracle by any means that Israel exists today. Miracles can only be explained by God. No scientific theory or human theory can explain the existence of Israel. They should have vanished when dispersed throughout all nations. As is brought out in references in these other videos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_YB2-19Z_c) there are the prophecies of Isaiah, Ezekiel and all the minor prophets to take into account.

    In Genesis 17;8 Abraham and his seed is promised the land as an everlasting possession. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. The physical land which Abraham had to walk the length and breadth of as instructed, was to he his for an everlasting possession. This means that Abraham has to be alive for ever to have the land as an everlasting possession and at the moment, Abraham is dead waiting the resurrection. No-one else besides Abraham and his seed (one or many) has a right to the land. The Jews are there by right. God has regathered them (fulfilling His unconditional promise) and while regathering the abuse against the Jews was continuing. The holocaust was the cause for which the nations thought that it was about time the Jews were allowed to form as the nation of Israel. That marked the beginning of other prophecy which had not been fulfilled. Old Jerusalem did not come under the Jews control until the time of the six-day war and this was another remarkable achievement when Israel captured the old city and pushed back its enemies Egypt and Jordan.



    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    There is a continuity of prophetic history from Genesis to Revelation. The primary events in the history of Israel were predicted with numerical precision. I just fell upon this idea yesterday. Here are my first thoughts:

    In Genesis God predicted the 400 years affliction in Egypt:
    Genesis 15:13-14 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; 14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
    This was fulfilled in Exodus:
    Exodus 12:40-41 Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years. 41 And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt.

    In Numbers God predicted the 40 years of the wandering, and the reason for it, and that He would fulfill His promise to their children but destroy the faithless adults:
    Numbers 14:30-35 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun. 31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised. 32 But as for you, your carcases, they shall fall in this wilderness. 33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness. 34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise. 35 I the LORD have said, I will surely do it unto all this evil congregation, that are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.
    I agree this happened in the timescale.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Jeremiah predicted the 70 years captivity in Babylon:
    Jeremiah 25:11-12 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. 12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations.
    Jeremiah 29:10 For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.
    Note that in all three cases God declared both the duration of the captivity as well as the promise of good things that would come when the captivity was completed.
    Yes, I agree. What we should also remember is that after the exile, the Jews did not return as strong as they used to be. I was reminded in one of the videos that that Judah remained a vassal state. The Jews were only free for approximately 100 years and as we know, the Jews were finally dispersed after AD70 around AD132 when the Jews were totally kicked out of Jerusalem. The land stayed desolate until the Jews were brought back and the desert made to blossom again. We have to remember that God had made Abraham an unconditional promise and that he and his seed would have the land as an everlasting possession. How does this work out physically? That is the question you have to answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Daniel predicted the 490 years unto the coming of Christ and the destruction of the Temple:
    Daniel 9:24-27 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
    Christ confirmed the prophesies of Daniel and even quoted him by name in the Olivet Discourse. Both the prophecies of Daniel and Christ were completely fulfilled in the events of the first century, as predicted. The words of Christ are TRUE!
    Luke 21:20-23 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people [of this generation].
    The preterist view of Revelation confirms the fulfillment of those prophecies in the destruction of Jerusalem, the "great harlot" that chose servitude to Rome over servitude to their God YHWH in the day of His visitation.
    I agree that the time period from the time Daniel was given the prophecy to when Messiah the prince was cut off was 7 weeks plus 62 weeks equalling 69 weeks. This brings us to circa AD30-31 and not AD70. after Messiah Prince is cut off another prince comes; the "people of the prince". I have explained this in the thread; When is the 70th week of Daniel's Prophecy in which I posted a pdf attachment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Thus we have a continuous prophetic history from Genesis to Revelation with numerically specific predictions and their fulfillment as confirmed by Scripture and History.
    But the fact is you are denying a lot of prophecy relating to the land of Israel that did not happen by AD70 which is the timescale you are working to. Maybe in another thread we can look at the prophecies you think have been fulfilled and you can tell me when. For example Isaiah 35:1 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. 2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God. How does this fit in with the time after which the C of I entered the land when it was described as "a land flowing with milk and honey" and then the land was cursed, the Jews thrown out and the land remained desolate. While the land remains desolate, the land and therefore the whole earth would never be filled with God's Glory. For that to happen, the dessert that the land of Israel became, must blossom again. We have seen the progress made since the Jews began to return from 1878 and 1914 and we still see there is a lot more desert waiting to blossom in the fulness of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    The Bible contains no prophecies of a future plan for carnal Israel, let alone numerically precise prophecies coupled with explicit promises of what God was going to do when the predicted time span was completed.
    Carnal Israel only fits into God's plan for the physical existence of Israel. It does not mean that every Jew belonging to carnal Israel has an automatic entry into the Kingdom. Carnal Israel serve as God's witness to the fact God is keeping His promises. Abraham has to have a physical inheritance which is the physical land we know as Israel. It is human mis-thinking to explain that Abraham receives his inheritance in Heaven or that is where Jesus is ruling from now. God's plan is for this earth and the land of Israel is a central part to that plan. This is where Jesus must rule from and the law will go forth as spoken of by Micah 4:2; And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. You have to explain to me when that happened in its fulness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    This seems to be an extremely powerful confirmation of the doctrine that all the prophecies of the Old Testament were fulfilled in the first century coming of Christ, establishment of His Church, and final judgment upon apostate Jerusalem, as it is written:
    Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
    Not as strong as you think because it is not only me who does not accept it. Consider Acts 15; 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Since the gospel was to be preached to the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled that has not been completed. I do not see it was completed by AD70. The fact that Jesus said in his Olivet discourse as quoted by Luke; Jerusalem shall be trodden down until the times of the gentiles be fulfilled. That is what has happened to Jerusalem. Old Jerusalem was not taken back until 1967 and given half a chance the Old City will be taken by the Arabs and if necessary destroyed in the process of annihilating Israel. Jerusalem remains the burdensome stone God said it would be to any nation that interferes with it. When then does Jerusalem cease to be a burdensome stone? Did that cease in AD70 and why is it still a burdensome stone?

    All the best

    David
    Last edited by David M; 01-12-2013 at 08:42 AM.

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