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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Good morning David,

    A sinner cannot be called "just" and "perfect." So we have a contradiction in the Bible.
    Hello Richard
    How come you can make up your own rules. Who said a sinner cannot be "just" and "perfect". If as God did with David and "put away" his sin, that is saying his sin was forgiven and as such was forgotten, I explained that those who are sinners and who have the perfectness of Jesus as their covering are presented to God as faultless. (Jude 1:24) Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    And since the NT says Jesus was sinless, it cannot be that he was not "good." There is only one way to resolve this contradiction.
    There would be a contradiction if Jesus was sinless and yet Jesus was not good.
    This implies that Jesus was indeed "good." And this is confirmed by Jesus when he referred to himself as the "good shepherd" and other passages. And so we have the following syllogism:

    Major Premise: Only God is good.
    Minor Premise: Jesus is good.
    Conclusion: Jesus is God.

    Obviously, when Jesus said there is none good but God, he was explaining that he himself was God.

    Pretty basic logic, eh?
    Sorry Richard but by applying your logic, looks stupid to me. There is nothing to indicate that Jesus "was explaining the he himself was God". That is just stating your conclusion which the words to do not support. If Jesus was God (and God is good), Jesus would not have needed to say anything. The fact that Jesus picked up on the point "good" was to emphasize that there is a difference and Jesus ought not to be addressed as "Good". I think you have ignored what I have written. Jesus said; Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God:

    You appear to me to be deliberately confusing the words good, perfect, and sinless. Your minor premise is incorrect because you minor premise to use the words of Jesus should say; Jesus is not good. Therefore, despite your attempt to turn my conclusion on its head, you have have failed and I maintain that since Jesus implied he was not good and that only God is good, that must make Jesus not the same as God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    And just so you know, I didn't make this up. I'm just reporting the traditional Christian understanding of how to resolve this apparent contradiction. I know you disagree, but what proof could you give other than your own fallible logic pitted against their fallible logic? How is that different than potsherds clashing with potsherds? Exactly how can you have any confidence that you are right and they are wrong?
    You might not be making it up. I am disappointed you are not your own man and apply better reasoning that you should be capable of. Why do you promote rubbish instead of formulating your own correct understanding. Your twisting of words to make a logical expression did not work. I am more convinced that I have better understanding from the Bible than anything you present. I will look at the link in a moment. I did not feel it was necessary to watch that video before I refuted your opening remarks.

    All the best,

    David

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Good morning David,

    It appears that you are teaching a doctrine of "salvation by works" when you say that God selects those who are "trying to lead a perfect life." That directly contradicts pretty much everything in the NT, though there are a few contradictory verses that you could appeal to. Could you state your position on this question? Is a person saved by works or grace, or some combination of the two?

    All the best,

    Richard
    Hello Richard

    You stated the same thing in another thread and I replied but I cannot find in what thread that was. It might be in the blog, but I cannot find the post. Alas I have to reply again and I will keep it short. I have never said we are justified by works. It is faith by which we are saved, but faith cannot be just paying lip-service. Unless someone is bed-bound and unable to do anything how does one demonstrate one's faith?

    Paul concludes (Romans 3:2) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    (Galations 2:16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


    Faith and works go hand-in-hand
    (James 2:18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.


    Does works come from faith? Or can faith come from works? Is not writing on this forum a form of works demonstrating the faith or not we all have? Does not my posts demonstrate the faith I have?

    if I get asked the question again, I will direct the respondent to this post.

    All the best

    David

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Richard

    You stated the same thing in another thread and I replied but I cannot find in what thread that was. It might be in the blog, but I cannot find the post. Alas I have to reply again and I will keep it short. I have never said we are justified by works. It is faith by which we are saved, but faith cannot be just paying lip-service. Unless someone is bed-bound and unable to do anything how does one demonstrate one's faith?

    Paul concludes (Romans 3:2) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

    (Galations 2:16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


    Faith and works go hand-in-hand
    (James 2:18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.


    Does works come from faith? Or can faith come from works? Is not writing on this forum a form of works demonstrating the faith or not we all have? Does not my posts demonstrate the faith I have?

    if I get asked the question again, I will direct the respondent to this post.

    All the best

    David
    Hey there David,

    If you want to be understood you need to state things more clearly, especially after it has already been explained that your words on this point are not clear. I found the posts where we discussed this before. It was in post 20 of the Clarifying the Logic of Love thread on my blog. Here is what you had written (my highlight in red):

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Only Jesus has been acceptable to God because he remained sinless and so if God only wants sinless people to be in His kingdom then there is a problem unless God has another means whereby people can become acceptable. Our sin makes us unacceptable to God. The only remedy is for God to forgive people their sins and see them as sinless as a result. Having been seen to be sinless, God will provide the means by which they will remain sinless in the kingdom of God. So who will God select to forgive them their sins? I suggest God is selecting the next best set of people and that is determined by how much they resemble his Son by the way they live their lives. Those who live according to the principles Jesus lived by are the ones who will be saved. This is encapsulated in John 3:16 and the greatest of all God's promises Therefore, to be saved and given a place in God's kingdom requires commitment to follow Jesus. Not everyone who sets out to follow Jesus continues and they fall by the wayside. This is why Jesus said; he who looks back is not fit for the kingdom of God. A person has to continue the struggle to follow Jesus right to the end of their natural life. For Paul, he likened life in Christ to a race in which at the end of his life was laid up for him a crown of righteousness; (2 Timothy 4:8) Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
    This is the same thing you wrote in this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by David M
    Man has no excuse for not trying to lead a perfect life. The world would be a far happier place if people tried to lead perfect lives. The fact is, very few do, but that does not matter, enough will for God to select them to be in His kingdom. Until, people are given the incorruptible bodies and will not suffer temptation in the Kingdom of God and therefore will not sin, then God's Glory cannot fill the whole earth until that is accomplished.
    By what standard does God "select" people to enter his kingdom? You have twice stated that it was according to how they "lived their lives." That indicates that salvation is determined at least in part by works. Now you have clarified that you think it is "faith + works" in your latest post on this topic:

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    By now Richard you should know that is not what I believe. Salvation does not come from works, it comes first by faith. Anyone with faith will naturally demonstrate their faith in the works they do. Hence when I said; "by the way they live" that means faith will be put into action. Works alone cannot save. Lip-service cannot save. Only true faith can be counted as righteousness and God makes the decision as to who is righteous enough to be saved. God is able to judge by what He knows is in a person's heart. (James 2:18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. (Ephesians 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Your comment seems confused on two points. First, you speak of "true faith" - but is that not redundant? Or are you saying a person who really thinks they believe in Christ could be deluded and have "false faith" and not "true faith" no matter how strongly they believe they believe? If so, how would they know? It can't be by how hard they try to "lead perfect lives" because even without "truth faith" they could feel motivated to do all sorts of "good works". Indeed, they might be extra motivated to do good works to prove to themselves and others that they really are saved!

    Second, what do you mean when you say speak of being "righteous enough to be saved"? What does that mean? Again, it sounds like works righteousness. Or does faith come in degrees? A mustard seed really isn't enough? It sounds again like you are saying that "mere faith" is not enough to save, but rather, some sort of "super faith" is required? How much? How would a person know if they had enough?

    Again, it sounds like you reject the idea that people are saved by faith alone. It sounds like you believe people are saved by faith + works. Is that correct?

    It is interesting that you said folks are not saved by "works alone" but you have not yet, AFAIK, said that people are saved by "faith alone." So where do you really stand on this question? Is it not the most important question of all Christianity? I mean, this is the question that determines who God allows to live in his kingdom! That's certainly the most important question in your religion. So I would think perfect clarity on this point is of the essence.

    These are ancient questions that Christians have been struggling with for millennia. The traditional Protestant solution was to conclude that people are saved by faith and faith alone without works playing any role of any kind. Indeed, that was one of the essential doctrines of the Protestant Reformation. It is one of the "five solas" -
    1. Sola scriptura ("by Scripture alone")
    2. Sola fide ("by faith alone")
    3. Sola gratia ("by grace alone")
    4. Solus Christus or Solo Christo ("Christ alone" or "through Christ alone")
    5. Soli Deo gloria ("glory to God alone")

    I know you hold pretty strongly to the first sola. What do you think of the other four? And did you know that these are the core doctrines of the "mainstream churches" that you generally reject?

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Hey there David,

    If you want to be understood you need to state things more clearly, especially after it has already been explained that your words on this point are not clear. I found the posts where we discussed this before. It was in post 20 of the Clarifying the Logic of Love thread on my blog. Here is what you had written (my highlight in red):

    This is the same thing you wrote in this thread:

    By what standard does God "select" people to enter his kingdom? You have twice stated that it was according to how they "lived their lives." That indicates that salvation is determined at least in part by works. Now you have clarified that you think it is "faith + works" in your latest post on this topic:
    Thank you Richard for pointing to the thread and post I was looking for. My first reply on the subject of "faith" or "works" is in post #22 in reply to your post #21. My reply on this point was at the bottom of a long post and not a separate post as I thought it was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Your comment seems confused on two points. First, you speak of "true faith" - but is that not redundant? Or are you saying a person who really thinks they believe in Christ could be deluded and have "false faith" and not "true faith" no matter how strongly they believe they believe? If so, how would they know? It can't be by how hard they try to "lead perfect lives" because even without "truth faith" they could feel motivated to do all sorts of "good works". Indeed, they might be extra motivated to do good works to prove to themselves and others that they really are saved!
    I am unable to judge others as God judges or as Jesus will judge, and therefore, I have to be worried about what I believe and leave it to others to accept or reject what I believe. All I can do is explain why I believe what I do. To answer your questions;
    "True faith" I do not think is a redundant phrase. I do believe that faith alone is a very strong force of the mind of a person by which apparently miraculous cures in themselves can take place. Usually, no miracle has taken place and there is probably a medical explanation waiting to be found,even though doctors etc are highly surprised by the cure that takes place as a result of a person's faith. Faith can be applied to lots of things and need not be applied to having faith in God. There are many different faiths involving God and Jesus and not all faiths can be correct. However, the sincerity of a person's faith and on what basis they understand their faith, I leave to God to judge. I do not know enough about a person's heart (that which defines a person's character) to be able to judge.

    I raised the question based on the words of Jesus when he said (Luke 18:8);Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? Now please tell me that if faith in general (not necessarily in God) is widespread, why would Jesus ask this question? Is Jesus referring to a specific faith that I have called "the true faith"? What is your understanding of Jesus' question?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Second, what do you mean when you say speak of being "righteous enough to be saved"? What does that mean? Again, it sounds like works righteousness. Or does faith come in degrees? A mustard seed really isn't enough? It sounds again like you are saying that "mere faith" is not enough to save, but rather, some sort of "super faith" is required? How much? How would a person know if they had enough?
    As you say below there are many people who do good works. That might make that person seem righteous to us in that they are doing the same works that people who have faith in God will do. However, it is faith in God that will separate those two types of people. In our eyes, those two types of people might appear righteous, but in God's sight only one of those people are righteous because they have faith in Him. It depends on whose perspective a person appears righteous. A believer should be concerned with God's judgement of themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Again, it sounds like you reject the idea that people are saved by faith alone. It sounds like you believe people are saved by faith + works. Is that correct?
    That is not correct for the reason I will give below in connection with another point you raise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    It is interesting that you said folks are not saved by "works alone" but you have not yet, AFAIK, said that people are saved by "faith alone." So where do you really stand on this question? Is it not the most important question of all Christianity? I mean, this is the question that determines who God allows to live in his kingdom! That's certainly the most important question in your religion. So I would think perfect clarity on this point is of the essence.
    Once again, because of another point that is raised below, I will answer below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    These are ancient questions that Christians have been struggling with for millennia. The traditional Protestant solution was to conclude that people are saved by faith and faith alone without works playing any role of any kind. Indeed, that was one of the essential doctrines of the Protestant Reformation. It is one of the "five solas" -
    1. Sola scriptura ("by Scripture alone")
    2. Sola fide ("by faith alone")
    3. Sola gratia ("by grace alone")
    4. Solus Christus or Solo Christo ("Christ alone" or "through Christ alone")
    5. Soli Deo gloria ("glory to God alone")

    I know you hold pretty strongly to the first sola. What do you think of the other four? And did you know that these are the core doctrines of the "mainstream churches" that you generally reject?
    Now you have introduced the word "grace" and to answer the questions above, I will do so by letting scripture answer. The fact is (and which is why I left answering some questions until now) that above all, we are saved by "grace" but with the qualification that this is through faith.
    (Ephesians 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    This means that of ourselves, faith alone is not able to save us, it is by God's grace we are saved. Everyone (except Jesus) is imperfect even though they have faith. Everyone misses "the mark" set by Jesus. That is where the grace of God is necessary if anyone is to be saved.

    That said, we note that Jesus does not go into long explanations to tell the woman that has just been cured of her issue of blood that it is by the grace of God that she will be saved, sufficient was it for Jesus to say (Luke 7:50) Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace. This raises a number of questions as to what Jesus meant exactly by this.
    Is Jesus saying;
    1. that it is the woman's faith alone in touching the hem of Jesus' garments which has cured her of her illness?
    2. that the woman's faith as in question 1 has saved her from eternal death?
    3. that it is the woman's faith in Jesus and God that has saved her?

    In the case of this woman, it appears that not only was the woman cured of her illness, but she could depart in peace from Jesus knowing that her faith in Jesus had secured her salvation.

    Now applying the questions of faith and works to myself I can ask myself the following questions;

    Have I the same amount of faith that Jesus had? My answer is " no"
    Could I have done more good works to demonstrate my faith? The answer is "yes"
    Have I had enough faith and done enough good works to demonstrate my faith to be saved? The answer is; "probably no"
    Should I have confidence in God that God is merciful and despite my poor performance compared to Jesus, that by God's grace He can save me? The answer is "yes".

    I trust this has answered your questions and we can move on and not have to repeat this subject.


    All the best,

    David

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Where does it do so?
    http://www.theopedia.com/Sinlessness_of_Jesus


    Sinlessness of Jesus

    The Sinlessness of Jesus is clearly taught in the Bible. In Hebrews we read that Jesus "has been tempted in every way, just as we are - yet was without sin" (Hebrews 4:15). He is also described as "a high priest [who] meets our need - one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens" (Hebrews 7:26) and is "unblemished" (Hebrews 9:14). Even Peter, who knew Jesus well, declared that he "committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth" (1 Peter 2:22). The apostle John tells us that "In him is no sin" (1 John 3:5) and Paul confirms for us that Jesus "had no sin" (2 Corinthians 5:21). Even Jesus himself asked those around him, "Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?" (John 8:46).


    Sinless yet human

    One problem arises from a study of the sinlessness of Jesus. Some have asked, "If Jesus never sinned, was he truly human?" Wayne Grudem writes:

    "The key to understanding the duality of Christ's human nature and His sinlessness is understanding that sin, as part of the human condition, is not the normal condition. God did not create us as sinners, but as a result of the fall, sin has marred our lives. Christ's sinlessness is made clear in Scripture, from His 40 days in the desert, where Satan tempted Christ but failed to entice him in to sin, to the time of the beginning of His ministry where "the favor of God was upon Him" (Luke 2:40)."

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post

    A sinner cannot be called "just" and "perfect." So we have a contradiction in the Bible.

    Noach did find favor in the eyes of the Lord,
    which has to do with the 153 large fishes Peter did draw upon the shore, the number 153 again referring to the third "tov" (= good) of Genesis.
    The earth, being cursed because of Adam's sin, just brought forth "ets oseh pri" instead of "ets pri oseh pri", and yet God saw that it was good.





    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post

    Major Premise: Only God is good.
    Minor Premise: Jesus is good.
    Conclusion: Jesus is God.

    Obviously, when Jesus said there is none good but God, he was explaining that he himself was God.

    Pretty basic logic, eh?

    So that's not true.

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