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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Because for all you see is wrong in the Bible, there is much that is right. It is the only Book that explains how we humans got here, and what the purpose to life is.

    It is the only Book that has the stamp of divine authority about it and because of that, it is the only Book to reveal the Creator's power by which he offers eternal life in his Kingdom to anyone who is prepared to follow his instruction.

    You can deny all that and throw the good away with what you dislike, but that does not change the positive message in the Bible. It does not matter what you think about who created the laws first, the laws in the Bible such as the 10 commandments is the basis behind the basic laws in society today.
    Hello David,

    I guess I missed this post, but better late then never ...

    I have never said that the Bible does not contain things that are good, the problem is the good is mixed up with the bad, which invalidates it as the word of god. We don't need a book written by primitive men to tell us how we got here, science is doing a very good job of that. As far as finding the purpose of life that comes from building meaningful relationships, not from a book.


    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    If you obey the ten commandments, there is no need for Human Rights. Human Rights judges are ruling according to what they determine what is right in their eyes and is the best for society. Everyone can think they have Human Rights and are being done some wrong. Is it a human right not to be subject to any law? If you do not yield so some law, then you have anarchy and civil unrest. Human Rights leads to unrest, by those who do not have their own rights upheld.

    It must be in law to uphold the Human Rights set by the courts. Not everyone will agree to that law. You still have a problem which you cannot solve, and there will always be civil unrest while man is ruling himself and does not have God in his life.
    I must say I'm a bit surprised at that statement! No need for human rights if we follow the Ten Commandments?? Human rights are what we all share as humans and what the Bible denies women. The Ten Commandments do not address any human rights issues, like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights does, that is why my challenge states the Bible should be thrown out as a moral guidebook and replaced with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    Apparently, you do not think that humans are equal and that is why there is no need for a moral code that gives everyone equality. Of course equal human rights would mean that homosexuals would be entitled to equality and could marry, and women would have equal standing with men, which goes directly against the teachings of the Bible.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Hi Shoshanah

    You ask for one good reason and Timmy has considered many...so, out from them, one stands clearer than all others:
    The Bible should not be thrown out because the U.D.H.R. says so.


    Timmy
    Hello Timmy

    For some reason I missed both yours and Davids posts ... oh well.

    I'm not quite sure I understand your reason for why the Bible should not be thrown out as a moral guide book?? So, I will just make a couple comments on the issue of human rights in response to your post.

    Article 1 of the U.D.H.R. states that all humans are born free and equal, with regards to dignity and rights ... this is something the Bible does not allow. In order to adhere to biblical teaching, one must necessarily deny the fact that all humans are born with equal rights. A person cannot claim to believe in both the Bible and the U.D.H.R. on the issue of human rights, because they contradict each other.

    So, which choice do you make on the issue of human rights: the Bible, or the U.D.H.R.??

    As you can tell, human rights is an issue that I care very much about. I look around me, and back through history and see the untold suffering that has come from humans mistreating each other. Some of the mistreatment has come from religion, and some from the human desire for dominance and greed. Making laws that decree equality is one huge step in the right direction, something that the Bible has failed miserably at. If fallible humans could come up with a U.D.H.R. there is no reason the Biblegod could not have had a statement of human rights written into the Bible. That is one of the reasons why it seems obvious that the Bible was written by primitive men, who did not think all human were deserving of equal rights.


    Looking forward to your response,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  3. #13
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    Hello Rose
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hello David,

    I guess I missed this post, but better late then never ...

    I have never said that the Bible does not contain things that are good, the problem is the good is mixed up with the bad, which invalidates it as the word of god. We don't need a book written by primitive men to tell us how we got here, science is doing a very good job of that. As far as finding the purpose of life that comes from building meaningful relationships, not from a book.
    Until science can explain how things came about from the beginning, science does not give us the answers. We only have two choices as I can see. Either God who has declared himself to be sole Creator is the origin of the universe and all life, or the scientific answer which has only the Big Bang as a theory which scientists are not in agreement, so science does not have a definitive answer to how the universe came about and life. How the first simplest of cells came about is far from being explained by science. It is wishful thinking on your part to think that science will find the answers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    I must say I'm a bit surprised at that statement! No need for human rights if we follow the Ten Commandments?? Human rights are what we all share as humans and what the Bible denies women. The Ten Commandments do not address any human rights issues, like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights does, that is why my challenge states the Bible should be thrown out as a moral guidebook and replaced with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
    The Ten Commandments does not cover every situation, but keeping the second and great commandment would cover much of what human rights covers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Apparently, you do not think that humans are equal and that is why there is no need for a moral code that gives everyone equality. Of course equal human rights would mean that homosexuals would be entitled to equality and could marry, and women would have equal standing with men, which goes directly against the teachings of the Bible.
    Keeping the Ten Commandments is an ideal which does not happen in practice. Where one person commits a crime against another person, we enter the realm of punishment for the crime. This is once again a subject we cannot agree with.

    We are back to the two opposing positions of humanism vs Theism. Homosexuality is an abomination to God. Homosexuality, is probably the cause of many diseases. If that is the case, then homosexuality has a lot to answer for. Humanism will reap its rewards for what humanists choose to do which is contrary to what God knows best which is why we have the basic laws. Of course there are many situations where a judgement has to be made and so we have different types of courts where judgements are made.

    You can argue that all people have human rights, but people who abuse other people and ignore their human rights ought by rights forfeit their human rights when it comest to punishment for certain crimes. In some ways humanst law is soft and the criminals are let off lightly. The law varies from one country to another and there is a wide variation of punishments administered for crimes. You might like to begin a thread dealing with a universal law which all countries should apply. You can then include Human Rights universally.

    All the best
    David

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Rose
    Until science can explain how things came about from the beginning, science does not give us the answers. We only have two choices as I can see. Either God who has declared himself to be sole Creator is the origin of the universe and all life, or the scientific answer which has only the Big Bang as a theory which scientists are not in agreement, so science does not have a definitive answer to how the universe came about and life. How the first simplest of cells came about is far from being explained by science. It is wishful thinking on your part to think that science will find the answers.
    Hi David,

    Science probably will never have all the answers, but it still can answer a lot more questions than religion can. All religion can say is "God did it", which is really no answer at all, because you are left with the question of where did god come from? The answers that science gives helps us to gain knowledge and understanding of how the universe works, so that we can find cures for diseases, and all the other discoveries that have helped to make the world a better place to live.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    The Ten Commandments does not cover every situation, but keeping the second and great commandment would cover much of what human rights covers.


    Keeping the Ten Commandments is an ideal which does not happen in practice. Where one person commits a crime against another person, we enter the realm of punishment for the crime. This is once again a subject we cannot agree with.
    The only human rights that the Ten Commandments even addresses are murder and theft, the rest of them really have nothing to do with guaranteeing equal human rights. Even "loving thy neighbor" is not as good as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, because we all know that the way neighbor was interpreted in the Old Testament applied only to those of the Hebrew race and even then women weren't always included.

    The foundation of morality must begin with equal human rights, which is something that is all but missing from the Bible. Equal human rights leaves no ambiguity about whether something is moral or not, because it applies across the board to everyone who is human.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    We are back to the two opposing positions of humanism vs Theism. Homosexuality is an abomination to God. Homosexuality, is probably the cause of many diseases. If that is the case, then homosexuality has a lot to answer for. Humanism will reap its rewards for what humanists choose to do which is contrary to what God knows best which is why we have the basic laws. Of course there are many situations where a judgement has to be made and so we have different types of courts where judgements are made.
    Because your Biblegod declares homosexuality to be wrong, you will never be able to support equal human rights, the same goes for the equal rights of women, since the Bible declares that men should rule over women.

    I love the U.D.H.R. because is states so clearly and unambiguously that ALL PEOPLE ARE BORN FREE AND EQUAL ... something the Bible does not state!


    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    You can argue that all people have human rights, but people who abuse other people and ignore their human rights ought by rights forfeit their human rights when it comest to punishment for certain crimes. In some ways humanst law is soft and the criminals are let off lightly. The law varies from one country to another and there is a wide variation of punishments administered for crimes. You might like to begin a thread dealing with a universal law which all countries should apply. You can then include Human Rights universally.

    All the best
    David
    Of course people who violate the human rights of others, must forfeit some of their own human rights as punishment. I have no problem with punishing those who commit crimes, but the punishment must fit the crime ... unlike the Biblegod who thinks that picking up sticks on the Sabbath, or not being a virgin (women only) on your wedding night is worthy of death!

    The U.D.H.R. is a law drawn up in 1948 by the United Nations ... it is called universal because it applies to all countries.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  5. #15
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    Hello Rose
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi David,

    Science probably will never have all the answers, but it still can answer a lot more questions than religion can. All religion can say is "God did it", which is really no answer at all, because you are left with the question of where did god come from? The answers that science gives helps us to gain knowledge and understanding of how the universe works, so that we can find cures for diseases, and all the other discoveries that have helped to make the world a better place to live.
    The answer; "God did it" is an absolute answer and is one stage back from theory science puts forward. Where does matter come from is explained by the God-factor. Where does matter come from has no explanation in science. If you say; "matter always existed", then it is equally permissible to say that God has always existed. God is the explanation for matter, even though scientifically, there is no scientific proof for showing God exists.
    As for curing diseases, of course you do not believe in miracles and you cannot belief in the power that created all the matter in this universe, therefore you do not accept that God can cure diseases far better than humans can. The problem is; there is no way of testing God in the way we would like to do.
    Consider the serpent that was raised up on the pole. When someone was bitten and they would have died, they had to have faith and go and look upon the serpent to be healed and not die. You have no faith now, therefore you are excluded from that source of cure if such a source were made available. Alas, God is not going to put up a source like that by which what I say can be proven. There is the example of Naaman who had to wash seven times in the river Jordan before he was made clean from leprosy. Once Naaman did that which was required (and we note that faith in this instance was not called for), the cure was instant. Science will never lead to cures comparable to the way God can cure.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    The only human rights that the Ten Commandments even addresses are murder and theft, the rest of them really have nothing to do with guaranteeing equal human rights. Even "loving thy neighbor" is not as good as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, because we all know that the way neighbor was interpreted in the Old Testament applied only to those of the Hebrew race and even then women weren't always included.
    I think you will find that Gentiles were to be treated with just as much respect as the Hebrews were to show amongst themselves. There is the example of the Good Samaritan in which Jesus asked; Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? You know the answer and this story involves doing good to a Samaritan (a Gentile).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    The foundation of morality must begin with equal human rights, which is something that is all but missing from the Bible. Equal human rights leaves no ambiguity about whether something is moral or not, because it applies across the board to everyone who is human.
    I doubt the U.D.H.R. has everything buttoned up and that is why cases are taken to the court of human rights and a ruling obtained which then becomes enshrined in the law of human rights. The second Great Commandment ought to be universal and applied correctly. There is always the exception to any rule. Until everyone conforms, we have to have rules. Once everyone conforms, then there does not have to be a rule. The second Great Commandment cannot apply to a sadomasochist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Because your Biblegod declares homosexuality to be wrong, you will never be able to support equal human rights, the same goes for the equal rights of women, since the Bible declares that men should rule over women.
    Exactly so. Humanism and Theism are not totally compatible. In fact, the U.D.H.R.is imposing restrictions on people who think they should have the freedom to do whatever they want to do. Maybe homosexuals should separate themselves completely from the heterosexual society by going to live in a separate country all to themselves. Then whatever diseases that arise, they keep the diseases amongst themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    I love the U.D.H.R. because is states so clearly and unambiguously that ALL PEOPLE ARE BORN FREE AND EQUAL ... something the Bible does not state!
    You are not as free as you think. You are a bondslave to sin and death. Under humanist law you are doomed to eternal death. The law of God actually gives you a way out whereby you are freed from that. (Rom 8:2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.. In the humanist world, you are subject to eternal death and you can never be free from that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Of course people who violate the human rights of others, must forfeit some of their own human rights as punishment. I have no problem with punishing those who commit crimes, but the punishment must fit the crime ... unlike the Biblegod who thinks that picking up sticks on the Sabbath, or not being a virgin (women only) on your wedding night is worthy of death!

    The U.D.H.R. is a law drawn up in 1948 by the United Nations ... it is called universal because it applies to all countries.
    You say; "the punishment must fit the crime" but you are against an "eye for an eye" principle preferring to let murderers (even where there is no doubt) off the death penalty. Instead, thousands of dollars are wasted by keeping these reprobates in prison until they die or let out of prison after serving a "life sentence" (hardly that), which would be money better spent helping the poor and needy.

    Incidentally, there is more behind those two crimes you cite from the Bible. "Picking up sticks", or not being a virgin is not the real issue. The issue, in the case of the sticks. is breaking the law, which was prescribed for the Sabbath. Breaking the law applying to the Sabbath, is sin, which brings the consequence of eternal death. Breaking laws for which the punishment is death, should serve as a reminder to ensure those laws are kept to. In the case of the non-virgin on her wedding night, it is the deceit that is the sin and is so deceitful as to warrant death. When marriage should be for life, a man who wants to marry a virgin, does not want to be married to a woman defiled by another man for the rest of his life. The death of the deceitful woman is the only way the man is released from the marriage in order to marry again and marry a virgin. Otherwise, the man commits adultery, if he marries again while his first wife remains alive. The deceitful wife has also compromised the man who though free to marry again, is not a virgin himself and might not be acceptable to another woman who is a virgin. You see the mess and complication which arises from the initial deceit.

    All the best
    David
    Last edited by David M; 06-18-2014 at 12:25 AM.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi David,

    Science probably will never have all the answers, but it still can answer a lot more questions than religion can. All religion can say is "God did it", which is really no answer at all, because you are left with the question of where did god come from? The answers that science gives helps us to gain knowledge and understanding of how the universe works, so that we can find cures for diseases, and all the other discoveries that have helped to make the world a better place to live.
    Science don't have answers to many questions and even if they have, there are errors. If the scientific foundation is wrong, every theory based on that foundation will be wrong; a good example is the theory of Phlogiston. Yes, God did it, it is as simple as that; no need to go through all the convoluted theories how the earth and humans and life came about. If I said Ford created cars, I mean simply the truth; no need to go through convoluted theories of how metals came about and somehow merged with other metals and plastics naturally through many millions of years of evolution and through the survival of the fittest and natural selection gradually came the cars that we see today.

    The only human rights that the Ten Commandments even addresses are murder and theft, the rest of them really have nothing to do with guaranteeing equal human rights. Even "loving thy neighbor" is not as good as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, because we all know that the way neighbor was interpreted in the Old Testament applied only to those of the Hebrew race and even then women weren't always included.
    Look carefully and you can see that all the UDHR are covered under the 2 great Commandments of Love God with all Your heart, soul and might and Love the neighbor as thyself. Love God with all your heart soul and might covers all the human rights related to religion and day of rest and Love thy neighbor as yourself relates to all the other articles of the UDHR.

    The foundation of morality must begin with equal human rights, which is something that is all but missing from the Bible. Equal human rights leaves no ambiguity about whether something is moral or not, because it applies across the board to everyone who is human.
    The foundation of human rights dose not begin with equal human rights alone but other considerations must be included such as basic needs before you can even go to the need for equal human rights, if not everything will be futile. If basic needs such as food, shelter, safety, security are not met, will people be interested to strive for equal human rights? Obviously No. My definition of human rights is different from yours, my definition is every gender works together using their natural abilities to reach for common good goals. This is analogous to every employee in the company working as a team using their own job knowledge and expertise to achieve the company's goals which will ultimately benefit everybody in the company. Know the meaning, "Thou shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes out from the mouth of God". It simply means that one shall live by basic needs and rights alone but also by the commandments and knowledge of God.

    Not everybody on earth will agree with equal human rights for everybody and several countries have yet to sign the UDHR. Are the 20% rich willing to share their wealth with the 80% poor? Are the well-fed willing to share their food with the underfed? And those living in bungalows willing to share their houses with the poor who do not have a roof above their heads? Are the criminals and evil men willing to repent of their ways and live righteous lives? Will everyone willing to live in peace without need for wars and killings? If the answer is No, then we are not ready for equal human rights. Therefore, stop wasting your time fighting for equal human rights until all these have been resolved; better to fight for human rights that are more achievable for the time being such as more protections for women. This is in fact the duty of men to protect women but some evil men abuse that rule into bullying women.

    For UDHR to be successful it must be signed by every nation on earth and it must be strictly complied. Several nations have yet to signed and some signed but with reservations or exceptions on some of the UDHR rules. This shows that there are flaws, disagreements or inconsistencies to the UDHR. If the Bible is inconsistent, so is the UDHR:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univers...f_Human_Rights

    See the criticism to the UDHR:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univers...ghts#Criticism

    See: Are Human rights really Universal?

    http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Hu...versal%3F.html


    Because your Biblegod declares homosexuality to be wrong, you will never be able to support equal human rights, the same goes for the equal rights of women, since the Bible declares that men should rule over women.
    If homosexuality is a human right or equal human right then your equal human right concept is wrong. If every men marries men and every women marries women, it will be the death knell of humans....extinction as we know it within several decades. And as David M said, sexual diseases will be rampant which will further speed up the death knell for humans.

    I love the U.D.H.R. because is states so clearly and unambiguously that ALL PEOPLE ARE BORN FREE AND EQUAL ... something the Bible does not state!
    If you love UDHR, you will love God because that's where human rights started based on Love God with all your heart, soul and might and Love thy neighbor as thyself; it is well stated!

    Of course people who violate the human rights of others, must forfeit some of their own human rights as punishment. I have no problem with punishing those who commit crimes, but the punishment must fit the crime ... unlike the Biblegod who thinks that picking up sticks on the Sabbath, or not being a virgin (women only) on your wedding night is worthy of death!
    If you have no problem with those punished for committing crimes, then you should have no problem with the death penalty for such things as drug trafficking, rapes, murder, kinapping etc. If the US government decree death penalty for speeding, we have to abide by the law and whoever beaks the law by speeding (except for certain exceptions) will face the gallows. Laws must be upheld if not, where is the integrity and justice?

    The U.D.H.R. is a law drawn up in 1948 by the United Nations ... it is called universal because it applies to all countries.
    Unfortunately, there is'nt much progress, why? ....because the human rights to basic needs such as security, safety, food are not met. Deal with first things first and UDHR will be more successful. Human progress without the blessings of God is doomed for failure.

    God Bless.
    Last edited by CWH; 06-18-2014 at 03:09 AM.
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Rose
    The answer; "God did it" is an absolute answer and is one stage back from theory science puts forward. Where does matter come from is explained by the God-factor. Where does matter come from has no explanation in science. If you say; "matter always existed", then it is equally permissible to say that God has always existed. God is the explanation for matter, even though scientifically, there is no scientific proof for showing God exists.
    Hello David

    "God did it" is not the slightest bit helpful when it comes to understanding how the universe works. If people would have been satisfied with that explanation, there would be no field of science. It is human curiosity and the drive to understand our environment that has led to the growth in scientific knowledge. The Christian church throughout its history, has tried to suppress the human quest for knowledge if it went against biblical teaching, but the spirit of discovery won out.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    As for curing diseases, of course you do not believe in miracles and you cannot belief in the power that created all the matter in this universe, therefore you do not accept that God can cure diseases far better than humans can. The problem is; there is no way of testing God in the way we would like to do.
    Consider the serpent that was raised up on the pole. When someone was bitten and they would have died, they had to have faith and go and look upon the serpent to be healed and not die. You have no faith now, therefore you are excluded from that source of cure if such a source were made available. Alas, God is not going to put up a source like that by which what I say can be proven. There is the example of Naaman who had to wash seven times in the river Jordan before he was made clean from leprosy. Once Naaman did that which was required (and we note that faith in this instance was not called for), the cure was instant. Science will never lead to cures comparable to the way God can cure.
    If the Biblegod can cure diseases far better than humans, why did it take the discovery of medicines to cure people of diseases? The Plague killed hundreds of millions of people, when the cure was the discovery of antibiotics. Where was god when all those people were dying? When humans discover a cure for an illness they don't withhold it from people, why should god?

    You claim science will never be able to cure people the way god can, yet the heavens remain silent and people keep dying. The only record of god's healing power is in an ancient book that cannot be trusted to even give people equal human rights, let alone a prescription for healing. Whenever science finds a cure, people know about it and benefit from it, not so with the Biblegod.


    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I think you will find that Gentiles were to be treated with just as much respect as the Hebrews were to show amongst themselves. There is the example of the Good Samaritan in which Jesus asked; Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? You know the answer and this story involves doing good to a Samaritan (a Gentile).
    I don't think that was the case. Take for example the treatment of slaves; heathen slaves could be treated much harsher than Hebrew slaves, so there certainly was no consistency in loving ones neighbor.


    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I doubt the U.D.H.R. has everything buttoned up and that is why cases are taken to the court of human rights and a ruling obtained which then becomes enshrined in the law of human rights. The second Great Commandment ought to be universal and applied correctly. There is always the exception to any rule. Until everyone conforms, we have to have rules. Once everyone conforms, then there does not have to be a rule. The second Great Commandment cannot apply to a sadomasochist.
    Even if what Jesus said about loving ones neighbor were applied correctly, it still does not cover the entire spectrum like declaring that "All humans are born free and equal" does. That single statement covers the human rights of ALL people, nothing more needs to be added.

    The statements in the Bible about loving ones neighbor, fall far short of claiming equal human rights ... the reason being is that the Biblegod does not believe in equal human rights, like in the cases of homosexuality and women. One cannot in all truthfulness be a Bible believing Christian and also believe in equal human rights, because the very foundation of biblical belief is that all people ARE NOT created equal and thus not entitled to equal human rights.


    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Exactly so. Humanism and Theism are not totally compatible. In fact, the U.D.H.R.is imposing restrictions on people who think they should have the freedom to do whatever they want to do. Maybe homosexuals should separate themselves completely from the heterosexual society by going to live in a separate country all to themselves. Then whatever diseases that arise, they keep the diseases amongst themselves.
    Human rights is not about people doing whatever they want, they are about all people being treated equally and sharing in the same rights as human beings.

    Homosexuals spread no more diseases than do promiscuous heterosexuals, and we know there are a lot of them around. Promiscuity is the main cause of the spread of STD's, which is why homosexuals should be allowed to marry so they can settle down in a stable relationship.


    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    You are not as free as you think. You are a bondslave to sin and death. Under humanist law you are doomed to eternal death. The law of God actually gives you a way out whereby you are freed from that. (Rom 8:2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.. In the humanist world, you are subject to eternal death and you can never be free from that.
    You know the freedom I am speaking of is the freedom to enjoy equal human rights, which the Bible denies.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    You say; "the punishment must fit the crime" but you are against an "eye for an eye" principle preferring to let murderers (even where there is no doubt) off the death penalty. Instead, thousands of dollars are wasted by keeping these reprobates in prison until they die or let out of prison after serving a "life sentence" (hardly that), which would be money better spent helping the poor and needy.

    Incidentally, there is more behind those two crimes you cite from the Bible. "Picking up sticks", or not being a virgin is not the real issue. The issue, in the case of the sticks. is breaking the law, which was prescribed for the Sabbath. Breaking the law applying to the Sabbath, is sin, which brings the consequence of eternal death. Breaking laws for which the punishment is death, should serve as a reminder to ensure those laws are kept to. In the case of the non-virgin on her wedding night, it is the deceit that is the sin and is so deceitful as to warrant death. When marriage should be for life, a man who wants to marry a virgin, does not want to be married to a woman defiled by another man for the rest of his life. The death of the deceitful woman is the only way the man is released from the marriage in order to marry again and marry a virgin. Otherwise, the man commits adultery, if he marries again while his first wife remains alive. The deceitful wife has also compromised the man who though free to marry again, is not a virgin himself and might not be acceptable to another woman who is a virgin. You see the mess and complication which arises from the initial deceit.

    All the best
    David
    My point that punishment should fit the crime does not mean "an eye for an eye". I have given my reasons why I think capital punishment is wrong. It's not because I think murderers are not deserving of death, but because of the possibility of condemning the wrong person to death, it is not worth the risk of condemning an innocent person to death. You on the other hand are so supportive of capital punishment that you justify the death penalty for things like breaking the Sabbath rules and non-virginity!

    To have the punishment for picking up sticks on the Sabbath on par with the punishment for murder is insane, and your justifications only serve to make you look calloused and hard hearted. The same goes for the gender biased law of virginity on ones wedding night, which by the way didn't apply to the man! Men were never tested for virginity and were always allowed to divorce their wives (unlike women with their husbands), even Jesus said that the law of Moses allowed for men to divorce. It was only women, like Paul mentions in Rom.7:2 and 1Cor.7:39 that were bound to their husbands under the law for life, so once again your justification of the gender biased laws of the Bible reflect poorly on your character.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Science don't have answers to many questions and even if they have, there are errors. If the scientific foundation is wrong, every theory based on that foundation will be wrong; a good example is the theory of Phlogiston. Yes, God did it, it is as simple as that; no need to go through all the convoluted theories how the earth and humans and life came about. If I said Ford created cars, I mean simply the truth; no need to go through convoluted theories of how metals came about and somehow merged with other metals and plastics naturally through many millions of years of evolution and through the survival of the fittest and natural selection gradually came the cars that we see today.
    You make no sense! The beauty of science is that when it is wrong everyone knows, because experiments don't work and testing fails. When science succeeds, we build rockets and computers that work and cure diseases!

    Saying "God did it" gets us nowhere. It doesn't find cures for diseases, it doesn't give us knowledge on how to grow more food, it does nothing. It makes a person dependent on asking god for everything, but getting no answers.


    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Look carefully and you can see that all the UDHR are covered under the 2 great Commandments of Love God with all Your heart, soul and might and Love the neighbor as thyself. Love God with all your heart soul and might covers all the human rights related to religion and day of rest and Love thy neighbor as yourself relates to all the other articles of the UDHR.
    You and David both are totally ignorant of what true equal human rights really are. If loving god and loving your neighbor covers all human rights, then why are women denied equal human rights in the Bible? Why are slaves denied equal human rights in the Bible? Why are homosexuals denied equal human rights in the Bible?

    As I have stated dozens of times, all people are human and as such are entitled to equal human rights. The Bible denies people equal human rights for reasons based on race, gender and sexual preference.


    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    The foundation of human rights dose not begin with equal human rights alone but other considerations must be included such as basic needs before you can even go to the need for equal human rights, if not everything will be futile. If basic needs such as food, shelter, safety, security are not met, will people be interested to strive for equal human rights? Obviously No. My definition of human rights is different from yours, my definition is every gender works together using their natural abilities to reach for common good goals. This is analogous to every employee in the company working as a team using their own job knowledge and expertise to achieve the company's goals which will ultimately benefit everybody in the company. Know the meaning, "Thou shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes out from the mouth of God". It simply means that one shall live by basic needs and rights alone but also by the commandments and knowledge of God.

    Not everybody on earth will agree with equal human rights for everybody and several countries have yet to sign the UDHR. Are the 20% rich willing to share their wealth with the 80% poor? Are the well-fed willing to share their food with the underfed? And those living in bungalows willing to share their houses with the poor who do not have a roof above their heads? Are the criminals and evil men willing to repent of their ways and live righteous lives? Will everyone willing to live in peace without need for wars and killings? If the answer is No, then we are not ready for equal human rights. Therefore, stop wasting your time fighting for equal human rights until all these have been resolved; better to fight for human rights that are more achievable for the time being such as more protections for women. This is in fact the duty of men to protect women but some evil men abuse that rule into bullying women.
    There can only be ONE definition of human rights, and that is the rights afforded people based on the fact that they are human, rights based on anything else would not be considered human rights. The foundation of all morality must be based on equal human rights. Just because everyone doesn't agree that all people should have equal human rights (like Christians) doesn't mean everyone isn't entitled to them.


    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    If homosexuality is a human right or equal human right then your equal human right concept is wrong. If every men marries men and every women marries women, it will be the death knell of humans....extinction as we know it within several decades. And as David M said, sexual diseases will be rampant which will further speed up the death knell for humans.
    No, my concept of equal human rights is not wrong! It is you who does not think homosexuals should have equal human rights, and I know you are intelligent enough to know that homosexuals are just as human as you or I!

    Having children is not a requirement for having a sexual relationship or marriage. If every heterosexual couple on the planet decided not to have children, our species would soon go extinct ... so what? The only reason people should have children is because they want to enjoy them, NOT because they want to keep the human race from going extinct.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    If you love UDHR, you will love God because that's where human rights started based on Love God with all your heart, soul and might and Love thy neighbor as thyself; it is well stated!
    Loving god and loving their neighbor did not give equal human rights to any of the women, or the slaves in the Bible. No where in the Bible does it say that ALL PEOPLE ARE BORN FREE AND EQUAL, no matter how much they love god.


    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    If you have no problem with those punished for committing crimes, then you should have no problem with the death penalty for such things as drug trafficking, rapes, murder, kinapping etc. If the US government decree death penalty for speeding, we have to abide by the law and whoever beaks the law by speeding (except for certain exceptions) will face the gallows. Laws must be upheld if not, where is the integrity and justice?


    Unfortunately, there is'nt much progress, why? ....because the human rights to basic needs such as security, safety, food are not met. Deal with first things first and UDHR will be more successful. Human progress without the blessings of God is doomed for failure.

    God Bless.
    People can be punished for their crimes without imposing the death penalty. I have already explained to David the reason I am opposed to capital punishment, it is not worth the risk of an innocent person being put to death.

    You have it backwards. First, a foundation of equal human rights must be laid, so people have something to build upon. The problem with the Bible is that is does not give equal human rights to people, so men take advantage of that and deny people their rights.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    You make no sense! The beauty of science is that when it is wrong everyone knows, because experiments don't work and testing fails. When science succeeds, we build rockets and computers that work and cure diseases!
    Science is based on God's creation...microbiology, geology, archeology... you named it and therefore without God's creation there is no science. If the scientific foundation is wrong, whatever based on that foundation is wrong. And many scientific theories always changes because their foundations are wrong.

    Saying "God did it" gets us nowhere. It doesn't find cures for diseases, it doesn't give us knowledge on how to grow more food, it does nothing. It makes a person dependent on asking god for everything, but getting no answers.
    Without God's creations there won't be any medicine to cure. God don't spoon feed us. same as you don't spoon feed your children if not, how are they to fend for themselves when they grew up? Same as the teacher will not give the answers to the questions straightaway to the students as she wants them to research and learn. Know the meaning "Ask and you shall be given, Seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened onto you".

    You and David both are totally ignorant of what true equal human rights really are. If loving god and loving your neighbor covers all human rights, then why are women denied equal human rights in the Bible? Why are slaves denied equal human rights in the Bible? Why are homosexuals denied equal human rights in the Bible?

    As I have stated dozens of times, all people are human and as such are entitled to equal human rights. The Bible denies people equal human rights for reasons based on race, gender and sexual preference.
    There can only be ONE definition of human rights, and that is the rights afforded people based on the fact that they are human, rights based on anything else would not be considered human rights. The foundation of all morality must be based on equal human rights. Just because everyone doesn't agree that all people should have equal human rights (like Christians) doesn't mean everyone isn't entitled to them.
    Correct, but equal human rights is just a dream which is humanly impossible based on all the reasons that I have given.... distribution curve, political, education etc. etc. Better to wait for a more intelligent and powerful force call God to help us solve those problems. Better that we spent time fighting for more achievable human rights goals. Better that both gender work together with their own strengths and abilities for the common good goals.

    No, my concept of equal human rights is not wrong! It is you who does not think homosexuals should have equal human rights, and I know you are intelligent enough to know that homosexuals are just as human as you or I!
    Same as I would put to you that that rapists, molesters, pedophiles, murderers should have equal human rights because they are humans right? They should have the freedom to do what they think is right, right?

    Having children is not a requirement for having a sexual relationship or marriage. If every heterosexual couple on the planet decided not to have children, our species would soon go extinct ... so what? The only reason people should have children is because they want to enjoy them, NOT because they want to keep the human race from going extinct.
    You are contradicting yourself. You said "children is not a requirement for marriage yet.. they want to enjoy them". If humans want to go extinct then rape is justified to ensure that humans will not go extinct.

    Loving god and loving their neighbor did not give equal human rights to any of the women, or the slaves in the Bible. No where in the Bible does it say that ALL PEOPLE ARE BORN FREE AND EQUAL, no matter how much they love god.
    Neither did the Bible said ALL PEOPLE ARE BORN UNFREE AND UNEQUAL. Many of the inequalities you saw in the Bible are due to evil or ignorant men abusing their powers. Slavery was a job which some people seek knowing the risks and responsibilities same as soldiers or prostitutes. They should be given the freedom to choose the jobs they want....right?

    People can be punished for their crimes without imposing the death penalty. I have already explained to David the reason I am opposed to capital punishment, it is not worth the risk of an innocent person being put to death.
    Then where is the justice? Would you be satisfied supposing the murderer who murdered your husband and children get away with a light sentence or better still, go scot free with an apology?

    You have it backwards. First, a foundation of equal human rights must be laid, so people have something to build upon. The problem with the Bible is that is does not give equal human rights to people, so men take advantage of that and deny people their rights.
    The Bible simply shows us that human rights is not equal human rights but equal opportunities for all to work together using their strengths and abilities for common goods; this is what is meant by love thy neighbor as thyself....I helped you because of brotherly love and I expect you to help me with brotherly love in return....This is equal human rights.


    God Bess.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  10. #20
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    Here is an awesome poster I found, created by zenpencils.com ... declaring what every person living in the 21st century should know!

    All Humans are born free and equal, and equal means having the same rights!


    Name:  Humanrightsnew.jpg
Views: 12
Size:  247.1 KB
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

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