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  1. #1
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    Physical or Spiritual body?

    Paul restated a question that he no doubt had been asked many times in his ministry. And one that all of us have asked I'm sure:

    But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?" (1 Cor 15:35)

    I have heard many suggest physical bodies pushing up from their graves at the resurrection, but I can't find that anywhere in Scripture. I would like you hear what you folks find in Scripture as the answer. As always, thanks for your thoughtful replies.

    Peace to you,
    Dave
    Last edited by basilfo; 12-22-2007 at 05:04 AM.

  2. #2
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    Dave,

    I offer these thoughts as to the question;

    Our physical bodies are comprised of these major components; the flesh and the correspondent organs and muscles, the blood system, the air system. These are all interconnected and depend on each other.

    The physical frame houses all of the systems. We breathe air which takes in oxygen, and our blood circulates through the body taking oxygen and nutrients which we obtain from food to the organs and extrimities, and carries back the waste to be eliminated.

    Blood is the major fluid component that brings life to all of the body, and carries away the waste as it is filtered and rejuvenated to run its course again.

    The flesh and the bones are the major body components.
    Air(oxygen) is the major ingredient in the breathing system.
    Blood is major ingredient in the circulating system.

    These are all an integrated system of our physical, earthly bodies.

    Paul gives us a glimpse of the spiritual body. Jesus, after His resurrection, was housed in a body that differed from the body which He had before His death.

    Both air and blood are necessary for the physical body to live. Deprive the body of either one and death will ensue.

    The spiritual body seems to have a definite frame, but, does not seem to have either a blood system or an air system. The spiritual body is not confined to the earth.

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  3. #3
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    Hi Dave,

    We won't be raised with a spiritual body either. We have the perfect example of this "new body" in the Resurrection of Jesus. He has a spiritual body that can go to the spiritual dimension, and a hard, touchable body that he can be seen and touched by humans. John said that "when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 Jn. 3:2

    Don

  4. #4
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    Paul restated a question that he no doubt had been asked many times in his ministry. And one that all of us have asked I'm sure:

    But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?" (1 Cor 15:35)

    I have heard many suggest physical bodies pushing up from their graves at the ressurection, but I can't find that anywhere in Scripture. I would like you hear what you folks find in Scripture as the answer. As always, thanks for your thoughtful replies.

    Peace to you,
    Dave
    Hello brother Dave. I’m glad that you asked this question. You already know my current position on the resurrection, just as you are fully aware of my previous position.

    To answer your question as honest as I can, let me simply say that this is a mystery to us all. However, we shouldn’t be surprised that God can raise the dead. We ourselves might ask, “How can God raise a body that’s decayed?” Consider how God made Adam from the dust of the earth, and how Eve was made from a single rib taken from Adam. What logically and scientifically would seem impossible to man, is not impossible with God.

    Now none of us deny that God can do these things; we are all aware of His great and awesome powers. So the question is not if God can do these things, but if God will provide us with new bodies, or raise our current bodies. The answer is both!

    To save space, let me simply piggy-back on 1 Corinthians 15:35 without quoting it.

    Paul was showing the difference between the heavenly body and the earthly body. What we sow is not the body which is to be. What does he mean by that? He’s saying that our earthly image is not the same as our heavenly image. He’s not talking about “exchanging” a body, as if to say that the body we sow perishes in exchange for another body in heaven. That’s not the context of the passage, for the context is about the “Splendor” of the heavenly vs. the earthly. What Paul is in fact saying is that the splendor we sow IS NOT the splendor which is to be. What we sow is earthly, made of dust. But what will be risen is transformed into incorruption, full of glory and power.

    I made the mistake in the past by trying to show that our current earthly bodies are not risen to be with the Lord, and that we have a new tent waiting for us in heaven. But I later realized my mistake on this. Paul was trying to show that the body to be is not the body we now possess, namely in splendor. What is carnal will be transformed into glory and power. What is temporary, will be transformed into eternity. Thus the saying, “What you sow is not the body to be [that is, not the splendor] but just a seed, perhaps of wheat….” A seed is planted into the ground. And when it’s fully grown, does it bear any resemblance of a seed? No friends, what was once a seed was transformed into a fully grown plant. The same with the resurrection. What you sow is the just a seed, and what rises from the earth is glorious in splendor, but no longer bears the image of a mere seed. What was small in size, was transformed into a glorious figure. But these are expressions Paul uses to explain the mystery of the Resurrection. When our bodies die, it perishes and returns to dust. But just as Adam was created from dust, so shall we also. But let’s keep something in focus here. Our bones do not decay, for we have dinosaur bones much older than the oldest man on earth….at least that’s my theory. It’s our flesh that turns into dust. But God is able to raise even from dust, anyone who has fallen asleep.

    In conclusion, our bodies are risen just as the Lord’s body was risen. His body at first was of flesh, requiring all the nutrients of life. But what was risen was glorious and full of power. The entire New Testament affirms that the Lord was raised, we also will be raised as He was. He was the first born from among the dead; the first fruits. And we shall also be raised just as He was. Matthew chapter 27 spoke of a resurrection which I believe was the Patriarchs of the Old Testament. Paul’s resurrection, and the original Church, IMO, occurred in the late 60’s AD; this was the first resurrection. And there shall be a final resurrection when the 1000 years are completed; that is our hope.

    May God’s love and peace be granted to you all.

    Joe
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 12-12-2007 at 07:51 AM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpet View Post
    Hi Dave,

    We won't be raised with a spiritual body either.
    Hi Don,
    Thanks for the reply. Your statement is at odds with Paul what said:

    1 Cor 15:37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, ...

    15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. [The body] is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam [became] a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.

    If Paul wanted his audience to know the resurrected body is NOT spiritual, IMO he did a bad job of explaining that. I think our interpretation of this very clear language is based on other notions, not the text itself. This has gotten 'us' in trouble in other areas, hasn't it? I think Paul is drawing the distinction between the inner soul (the spiritual) body and the outer shell (the physical temporary flesh/bones) body.

    We have the perfect example of this "new body" in the Resurrection of Jesus.
    Actually, it's not a good example. That is Jesus' body, not ours. He is God, we are not. God can and does do things we don't. His body did not decay. Not only does ours decay, but 99.9% of the bodies are completely GONE and distributed throughout creation.
    Any return of these bodies, would be a RECREATION, not a RESURRECTION. ALL examples of physical resurrection in Scripture (e.g. Lazarus, and others that Jesus raised from the dead during His ministry) came from bodies that physically existed. To my knowledge, there is no reference to a recreation or re-assembling of the body - all ref's speak of raising an existing thing that has gone into 'rest' (See Dan 12).

    He has a spiritual body that can go to the spiritual dimension, and a hard, touchable body that he can be seen and touched by humans.
    IMO, this physical aspect of Jesus' body was required to prove to the disciples (who didn't even believe it was Him when He appeared in the room to them - they thought it was a ghost) that He in fact had risen from the dead. He certainly did not have the physical dimension (flesh/bones/blood) as he ascended nor did He when He appeared in closed rooms. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

    John said that "when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 Jn. 3:2

    Don
    Yes John did say that. But I doubt it means we will be exactly like Him in every way. We will worship Him and He won't worship us. I don't read this to mean we will LOOK exactly like Him (have the same exact body). I think it points more to us 'getting it' rather than our physical makeup. "Like Him" as in like-minded with respect to our relationship with Him. We will finally grasp the beautiful concept and depth of His love. Right now, our feeble minds really can't comprehend it.

    These are my thoughts, and I'm here to learn and hear what you have to say.

    Peace to you,
    Dave
    Last edited by basilfo; 12-12-2007 at 10:19 AM.

  6. #6
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    What was 'resting'?

    Dan 12:13 "But you, go [your way] till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days."

    I believe this instruction to Daniel helps us answer the question of the type of body (physical or spiritual) that is raised in resurrection.

    If you say resurrection speaks about the physical body, you must conclude that the angel was speaking about Daniel's flesh and bones that would 'rest' and 'will arise to your inheritance' (resurrection). Really? So the 'you shall rest' was not speaking of Daniel's soul, but of his shell/body?

    This means that the angel said nothing of Daniel's soul or the concious part of his being, but spoke about his flesh and bones. Where was Daniel's soul between the time of his death and the 'end of the days'?? Was it 'resting' too?

    As a side note, why did Daniel's concious part (his soul) have to rest til the end of the days, but today people say believer's souls go immediately to be with the Lord?

    Peace to you,
    Dave
    Last edited by basilfo; 12-12-2007 at 10:40 AM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by basilfo View Post
    As a side note, why did Daniel's concious part (his soul) have to rest til the end of the days, but today people say believer's souls go immediately to be with the Lord?
    Maybe they are mistaken, 1 Thess calls the dead as being asleep. No matter how much time passes between a person's death and their resurrection they are unaware that any time has passed.

    They are partly right, the breath of life does return to God, for everything that has had the breath of life, good and bad, believer and non-believer.

    Ec:12:7: Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    If the good go to heaven at death then the bad go to another place. The story of the rich man (Jewish religious leader) and Lazarus has Lazarus being asleep, he isn't doing or saying anything, he is only resting in Abraham's bosom.

    Even an Apostle said that he was more than anxious to get rid of this earthly body (written shortly before he did die and he was getting on in years). He didn't specifically say it would be at the moment of death. Nor did Jesus ever say anything about being 'aware' of where the spirit is when the body is in the ground. He did say He would raise it at the last day.

    Joh:6:39: And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    Joh:6:40: And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    Joh:6:44: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    Joh:6:54: Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    For believers the last day is at the end of the vials, "It is done."

    For non-believers it is after Judgment Day,
    Re:21:6: And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHz View Post
    Maybe they are mistaken, 1 Thess calls the dead as being asleep. No matter how much time passes between a person's death and their resurrection they are unaware that any time has passed.
    I would agree with you MHz. You seem to be saying that the soul or the conscious spirit is what is either aware or unaware, not the bones and flesh. I agree. That is why I believe the angel in Dan 12 was speaking of his soul, not his phys body resting and being raised and given his inheritance at the end of the days.

    For those who say the 'end of the days' or 'last days' or 'end of the age' or 'last hour' has not occured yet, they would have to say that Dan's soul is still resting. But those same people say their dear departed aunt Millie is 'at home with the Lord'. They are saying (without realizing it) that she beat Daniel to heaven. Of course, if the end of the days has already occured as the apostles and Jesus said they would, then BOTH Daniel and Aunt Millie are home. You can't have it both ways.

    Consider the can of worms opened! But isn't that why we're here? Richard, if you feel we are getting off topic, please direct us to post in new threads.

    Peace to you all,
    Dave
    Last edited by basilfo; 12-12-2007 at 01:40 PM.

  9. #9
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    Excellent point Dave

    Quote Originally Posted by basilfo View Post
    For those who say the 'end of the days' or 'last days' or 'end of the age' or 'last hour' has not occured yet, they would have to say that Dan's soul is still resting. But those same people say their dear departed aunt Millie is 'at home with the Lord'. They are saying (without realizing it) that she beat Daniel to heaven. Of course, if the end of the days has already occured as the apostles and Jesus said they would, then BOTH Daniel and Aunt Millie are home. You can't have it both ways.
    Dan 12:13 "But you, go [your way] till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days."

    If we walk through that verse step by step, it seems pretty clear what is being said. First Daniel is told that these things won't happen before the end of his life, so he will rest in death until his inheritance comes, which happens at the end of days. If we take the "end of days" to be when Jesus came, then at that time Daniel was raised from death to his inheritance, which is to be home with the Lord.

    Eph. 113-14 "
    In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Hello brother Dave. I’m glad that you asked this question. You already know my current position on the resurrection, just as you are fully aware of my previous position.
    Hi Joseph. We have spoken about this before and I respect your thoughts which I know are genuine and are only motivated by seeking the truth. I am glad to call you brother.

    .... we shouldn’t be surprised that God can raise the dead. We ourselves might ask, “How can God raise a body that’s decayed?” Consider how God made Adam from the dust of the earth, and how Eve was made from a single rib taken from Adam. What logically and scientifically would seem impossible to man, is not impossible with God.
    Whether there is life after death wasn't the issue Paul was addressing in 1 Cor 15. It was what kind of body goes on after physical death. Decaying is not the issue for the vast majority of bodies. They are simply not there. The easy examples are those burnt to ash or who died at sea, and even most buried bones only last a short time before the landscape changes and the dust is blown away to be absorbed somewhere else in nature.

    Bottom line, IMO, there needs to be something to resurrect - a single entity. And it cannot be the physical body because it does not exist. I can't find a single verse that describes the union of the disembodied soul (waiting for the resurrection) and a new 'super body' that comes at the resurrection.
    Now none of us deny that God can do these things; we are all aware of His great and awesome powers. So the question is not if God can do these things, but if God will provide us with new bodies, or raise our current bodies. The answer is both!
    We should not determine the strength of an interpretation of Scripture (in this case what body exists after death) on whether God could do it or not. It should be based on what Scripture says. For that matter, I could say that our bodies will be made of pure gold. Hey, God could do it, couldn't He? But Scripture says nothing of the kind.

    In addition, what is the purpose of a physical body (even a fortified, 'glorified' one?) I believe this comes out of the futurist belief of a future earthly reign of Jesus in earthly Jerusalem (don't forget the great big chair and rod of iron in His hand) and in order to do that, believers would have to have physical bodies. I believe this to be a false interp of Scripture.

    Peace to you,
    Dave
    Last edited by basilfo; 12-12-2007 at 03:21 PM.

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