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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
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    8

    Reasons to Reject or Not Reject the Christian Faith

    Hi everybody,

    Richard and I just met and have had a couple of chats before now. I appreciate his inviting me to come and discuss the topic of Reasons for Rejecting or Not Rejecting the Christian faith.

    I am impressed that he has been so gracious in our conversations, and in his answers to the posts that I have read. I am impressed with his background and acumen. However, I am even more impressed that (from my perspective), God has so highly favored him to discover the Bible Wheel.

    I know that there are probably more critics of the Wheel; however, the one Christian apologist who wrote the one critique that I read, obviously had not made a thorough investigation of the Wheel. He did not specifically address all the important facts/factors in the Bible that have confluences in the Wheel that are very highly unlikely. The likelihood of the confluences of those biblical "factors" go far beyond mere happenstance. In my opinion, the Wheel is a real manifestation of proof of the supernatural design of the Bible by an Intelligence none other than God, Himself. Once again, that the Creator of the Universe would reveal the Wheel to Richard, makes him so immensely blessed and so highly favored.

    Richard, I am taken aback however, by the fact that after such an amazing discovery which you still believe is bonifide, you consider yourself to have left the Christian faith. May I ask, which essential aspects of Christianity that make a person a Christian, have you given up?

    Respectfully yours,

    Bob

  2. #2
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    Dec 2012
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    8

    Reasons to Reject or Not Reject the Christian Faith

    Richard,

    I'm sorry. I should have been more specific. Personal or organizational Christian creeds or tenets of faith may or may not be biblical. What I should have asked you is: What BIBLICAL components of or specifications for the biblically-defined condition of salvation do you reject and no longer want applied to yourself, that make you non-Christian?

    Regards,

    Bob

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
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    Yakima, Wa
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    15,146
    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Richard,

    I'm sorry. I should have been more specific. Personal or organizational Christian creeds or tenets of faith may or may not be biblical. What I should have asked you is: What BIBLICAL components of or specifications for the biblically-defined condition of salvation do you reject and no longer want applied to yourself, that make you non-Christian?

    Regards,

    Bob
    Good morning Bob,

    Welcome to our forum!



    I'm really glad you have posted your questions. I began answering last night but it got too late before I could finish. I'll compose my answer now. I just wanted to say "welcome" to our forum and let you know that I appreciate your questions.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Hi everybody,

    Richard and I just met and have had a couple of chats before now. I appreciate his inviting me to come and discuss the topic of Reasons for Rejecting or Not Rejecting the Christian faith.

    I am impressed that he has been so gracious in our conversations, and in his answers to the posts that I have read. I am impressed with his background and acumen. However, I am even more impressed that (from my perspective), God has so highly favored him to discover the Bible Wheel.

    I know that there are probably more critics of the Wheel; however, the one Christian apologist who wrote the one critique that I read, obviously had not made a thorough investigation of the Wheel. He did not specifically address all the important facts/factors in the Bible that have confluences in the Wheel that are very highly unlikely. The likelihood of the confluences of those biblical "factors" go far beyond mere happenstance. In my opinion, the Wheel is a real manifestation of proof of the supernatural design of the Bible by an Intelligence none other than God, Himself. Once again, that the Creator of the Universe would reveal the Wheel to Richard, makes him so immensely blessed and so highly favored.

    Richard, I am taken aback however, by the fact that after such an amazing discovery which you still believe is bonifide, you consider yourself to have left the Christian faith. May I ask, which essential aspects of Christianity that make a person a Christian, have you given up?

    Respectfully yours,

    Bob
    Good morning Bob,

    I really appreciate your tone, and am glad you asked these questions since many other folks have similar questions and it gives me a chance to clarify my position both for myself and others. I still have a lot to figure out.

    My departure from Christianity was a long slow process. At no stage did I make any rash decisions. My interaction with other Christians on internet forums played a big role. The more I talked with other believers, the more I found that there is no such thing as "Christianity" per se, but rather a broad range of contradictory "Christianities" based on widely divergent presuppositions and interpretations. You know the nature of Christendom. It is populated by Catholics, Greek Orthodox, ten thousand varieties of Protestants and the menagerie of fringe groups that sprang from them like JW, Mormonism, Christadelphian, Branch Davidian, Armstrongism, etc., etc., etc. It became obvious to me that it was entirely irrational to think that God would demand that a person must sort through all this confusion and come to the "correct interpretation" in order to be saved.

    These problems were greatly amplified when I began to see that Christianity functions as an agent of corruption in many, if not most, public expressions of that religion. For example, in 2010 Ergun Caner was exposed as a serial liar who had been lying for TEN YEARS about being a former Muslim terrorist when in fact he grew up as an ordinary American kid in Columbus, Ohio. He was president and dean of Jerry Fallwel's seminary at Liberty University, the largest Christian university in the world. I watched dumbfounded as the entire LEADERSHIP of Liberty University systematically LIED to cover up Caner's crimes. My disgust grew as I watched one of the most prominent Christian apologists, Norm Geisler, do everything in his power to cover up Caner's lies. And John Ankerberg lied too, and many small Christian ministries removed the evidence of Caner's lies from their websites. I finally realized that the entire body of Evangelical Christianity was entirely corrupt and saturated with perverse people who would knowingly lie to protect other liars. See my article Ergun Caner's Crimes against God and the Global Community if you are interested in the scatology of Christianity.

    This forum also contributed largely to the demise of my faith. I started it back in 2007 hoping folks would come and discuss the Bible Wheel, but all anyone wanted to talk about was the end of the world, the rapture, and the Second Coming. This drew me in to a detailed study of eschatology (which never was of much interest to me when writing the Bible Wheel book) and I found that the vast majority of Christians adamantly held to irrational, unbiblical, and unsupportable beliefs. So again, I found that professing "faith" in the Bible meant nothing because everyone just believes what they want, and more often than not, folks will twist the Bible to fit their beliefs rather than conforming their beliefs to the Bible. What good then was the Bible?

    And this brings us to your question posed in your second post: "What BIBLICAL components of or specifications for the biblically-defined condition of salvation do you reject and no longer want applied to yourself, that make you non-Christian?"

    My answer: All of them. I do not believe that God is going to save or damn anyone based on what they believe about what is written in the Bible. That would be radically irrational for may reasons. First, most people in history never heard of the Bible, and of those who did, they were taught whatever doctrines flowed from the religion they were born into. Mormon children are taught Mormon doctrines, etc. God cannot use "doctrines" as a righteous standard of judgment. Furthermore, the Bible is much too ambiguous to function as any kind of guide, as is obvious from the ten thousand varieties of Christianities out there. And besides that, I now reject the Christian concept of theism. I do not believe that there is a theistic style God who is a personal agent who "does things" like answer prayers, part the Red Sea, flood the planet, design the Bible Wheel, command genocide, judge people for their sins, etc. But don't get me wrong. I'm open to the possibility of spiritual/mental "Ground of Being" or "Cosmic Mind." I just don't think there is any evidence for a theistic style God.

    So what about the evidence of the Bible Wheel? As far as I know, it stands. I began presenting it on the internet in 2001. I discussed it on many forums such as theologyweb.com, the Christian ASA (American Scientific Association) mailing list, the Catholic Answers forum, and the Jews for Judaism forum. I have left a very long trail on the internet. I have responded to thousands of posts written by opponents. I consistently met with vehement opposition (or blunt dismissal) everywhere I went, but one thing stood out. To the best of my knowledge, no opponent has ever exposed any fundamental flaw or systematic error in the evidence. So from an evidentiary stance, the Bible Wheel stands. I have no option there.

    So what does it mean? I don't know. I am mystified. But I am convinced it cannot be what you suggest (and which I once firmly believed). It cannot be proof that the Bible was designed by Yahweh, because God cannot be as described in its pages.

    I look forward to discussing this with you more.

    All the very best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
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    4,313
    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Richard,

    I'm sorry. I should have been more specific. Personal or organizational Christian creeds or tenets of faith may or may not be biblical. What I should have asked you is: What BIBLICAL components of or specifications for the biblically-defined condition of salvation do you reject and no longer want applied to yourself, that make you non-Christian?

    Regards,

    Bob
    Hello Bob and welcome to our forum

    I am Richards wife and would also like to answer your question as to why I'm a non-Christian. Richard and I both began our journey out of the Christian faith at the same time, but for different reasons. Unbeknownst to me at the time, my journey began with an in-depth study of Revelation, which quotes extensively from the Old Testament, so I was compelled to read its text in detail. The more I studied, the more its masculine god revealed his biased nature towards the female gender. At every turn in Scripture, the male god Yahweh was giving commands and laws to make a distinction in the treatment of women as opposed to men. Gender determined what human rights a person was afforded, with men being given the preference and ruler-ship over women. This study led me to write an article called The Male Bias of the Bible which can be found on my Blog.

    A true god cannot be just while holding to a bias based solely on gender. Using logic and reason I determined that if the god of the Old Testament is biased, then he cannot be a true god. With this in mind I naturally had to reflect on the New Testament, which shared the same god. If Jesus called the god of the Old Testament his father and said that not one "jot" or "tittle" would be changed from its law, then logic follows that the god that Jesus called father was also biased, being one and the same god. We also know from the writings of Paul that he also held to the biased laws given in the Old Testament concerning women.

    The biased nature of god was just the first stepping stone on my path out of Christianity, there are many other things in the nature of Yahweh, such as his gross immorality, and unrighteousness that added to the pile and led me to reject him as a true god. This of course is a very broad overview of my journey out of the faith that I had held for close to 28 years, but I wanted to give you another reason why a person would leave Christianity.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    8

    Reasons to Reject or Not Reject the Christian Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hello Bob and welcome to our forum

    I am Richards wife and would also like to answer your question as to why I'm a non-Christian. Richard and I both began our journey out of the Christian faith at the same time, but for different reasons. Unbeknownst to me at the time, my journey began with an in-depth study of Revelation, which quotes extensively from the Old Testament, so I was compelled to read its text in detail. The more I studied, the more its masculine god revealed his biased nature towards the female gender. At every turn in Scripture, the male god Yahweh was giving commands and laws to make a distinction in the treatment of women as opposed to men. Gender determined what human rights a person was afforded, with men being given the preference and ruler-ship over women. This study led me to write an article called The Male Bias of the Bible which can be found on my Blog.

    A true god cannot be just while holding to a bias based solely on gender. Using logic and reason I determined that if the god of the Old Testament is biased, then he cannot be a true god. With this in mind I naturally had to reflect on the New Testament, which shared the same god. If Jesus called the god of the Old Testament his father and said that not one "jot" or "tittle" would be changed from its law, then logic follows that the god that Jesus called father was also biased, being one and the same god. We also know from the writings of Paul that he also held to the biased laws given in the Old Testament concerning women.

    The biased nature of god was just the first stepping stone on my path out of Christianity, there are many other things in the nature of Yahweh, such as his gross immorality, and unrighteousness that added to the pile and led me to reject him as a true god. This of course is a very broad overview of my journey out of the faith that I had held for close to 28 years, but I wanted to give you another reason why a person would leave Christianity.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Richard and Rose,

    Thank you for answering my post so soon. I am so appreciative that you are gracious people, unlike those Christian apologists and atheists one finds at other religious debate websites.

    I have never encountered "non-Christians" like you before (meaning nothing derogatory by the term, "non-Christian"). Not only am I not really experienced at discussing my or anyone else's belief or faith in a forum like this, but I have not done much of it face-to-face either; and so, I want to move forward in our discussion very thoughtfully and carefully, which will take me a little time to think and do some research, before I get back to you. I hope you don't mind. I will respond in a little bit.

    Best Regards,

    Bob

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    8

    Reasons to Reject or Not Reject the Christian Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Good morning Bob,

    I really appreciate your tone, and am glad you asked these questions since many other folks have similar questions and it gives me a chance to clarify my position both for myself and others. I still have a lot to figure out.

    My departure from Christianity was a long slow process. At no stage did I make any rash decisions. My interaction with other Christians on internet forums played a big role. The more I talked with other believers, the more I found that there is no such thing as "Christianity" per se, but rather a broad range of contradictory "Christianities" based on widely divergent presuppositions and interpretations. You know the nature of Christendom. It is populated by Catholics, Greek Orthodox, ten thousand varieties of Protestants and the menagerie of fringe groups that sprang from them like JW, Mormonism, Christadelphian, Branch Davidian, Armstrongism, etc., etc., etc. It became obvious to me that it was entirely irrational to think that God would demand that a person must sort through all this confusion and come to the "correct interpretation" in order to be saved.

    These problems were greatly amplified when I began to see that Christianity functions as an agent of corruption in many, if not most, public expressions of that religion. For example, in 2010 Ergun Caner was exposed as a serial liar who had been lying for TEN YEARS about being a former Muslim terrorist when in fact he grew up as an ordinary American kid in Columbus, Ohio. He was president and dean of Jerry Fallwel's seminary at Liberty University, the largest Christian university in the world. I watched dumbfounded as the entire LEADERSHIP of Liberty University systematically LIED to cover up Caner's crimes. My disgust grew as I watched one of the most prominent Christian apologists, Norm Geisler, do everything in his power to cover up Caner's lies. And John Ankerberg lied too, and many small Christian ministries removed the evidence of Caner's lies from their websites. I finally realized that the entire body of Evangelical Christianity was entirely corrupt and saturated with perverse people who would knowingly lie to protect other liars. See my article Ergun Caner's Crimes against God and the Global Community if you are interested in the scatology of Christianity.

    This forum also contributed largely to the demise of my faith. I started it back in 2007 hoping folks would come and discuss the Bible Wheel, but all anyone wanted to talk about was the end of the world, the rapture, and the Second Coming. This drew me in to a detailed study of eschatology (which never was of much interest to me when writing the Bible Wheel book) and I found that the vast majority of Christians adamantly held to irrational, unbiblical, and unsupportable beliefs. So again, I found that professing "faith" in the Bible meant nothing because everyone just believes what they want, and more often than not, folks will twist the Bible to fit their beliefs rather than conforming their beliefs to the Bible. What good then was the Bible?

    And this brings us to your question posed in your second post: "What BIBLICAL components of or specifications for the biblically-defined condition of salvation do you reject and no longer want applied to yourself, that make you non-Christian?"

    My answer: All of them. I do not believe that God is going to save or damn anyone based on what they believe about what is written in the Bible. That would be radically irrational for may reasons. First, most people in history never heard of the Bible, and of those who did, they were taught whatever doctrines flowed from the religion they were born into. Mormon children are taught Mormon doctrines, etc. God cannot use "doctrines" as a righteous standard of judgment. Furthermore, the Bible is much too ambiguous to function as any kind of guide, as is obvious from the ten thousand varieties of Christianities out there. And besides that, I now reject the Christian concept of theism. I do not believe that there is a theistic style God who is a personal agent who "does things" like answer prayers, part the Red Sea, flood the planet, design the Bible Wheel, command genocide, judge people for their sins, etc. But don't get me wrong. I'm open to the possibility of spiritual/mental "Ground of Being" or "Cosmic Mind." I just don't think there is any evidence for a theistic style God.

    So what about the evidence of the Bible Wheel? As far as I know, it stands. I began presenting it on the internet in 2001. I discussed it on many forums such as theologyweb.com, the Christian ASA (American Scientific Association) mailing list, the Catholic Answers forum, and the Jews for Judaism forum. I have left a very long trail on the internet. I have responded to thousands of posts written by opponents. I consistently met with vehement opposition (or blunt dismissal) everywhere I went, but one thing stood out. To the best of my knowledge, no opponent has ever exposed any fundamental flaw or systematic error in the evidence. So from an evidentiary stance, the Bible Wheel stands. I have no option there.

    So what does it mean? I don't know. I am mystified. But I am convinced it cannot be what you suggest (and which I once firmly believed). It cannot be proof that the Bible was designed by Yahweh, because God cannot be as described in its pages.

    I look forward to discussing this with you more.

    All the very best,

    Richard
    Richard and Rose,

    Thank you for answering my post so soon. I am so appreciative that you are gracious people, unlike those Christian apologists and atheists one finds at other religious debate websites.

    I have never encountered "non-Christians" like you before (meaning nothing derogatory by the term, "non-Christian"). Not only am I not really experienced at discussing my or anyone else's belief or faith in a forum like this, but I have not done much of it face-to-face either; and so, I want to move forward in our discussion very thoughtfully and carefully, which will take me a little time to think and do some research, before I get back to you. I hope you don't mind. I will respond in a little bit.

    Best Regards,

    Bob

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yakima, Wa
    Posts
    15,146
    Quote Originally Posted by BobL View Post
    Richard and Rose,

    Thank you for answering my post so soon. I am so appreciative that you are gracious people, unlike those Christian apologists and atheists one finds at other religious debate websites.

    I have never encountered "non-Christians" like you before (meaning nothing derogatory by the term, "non-Christian"). Not only am I not really experienced at discussing my or anyone else's belief or faith in a forum like this, but I have not done much of it face-to-face either; and so, I want to move forward in our discussion very thoughtfully and carefully, which will take me a little time to think and do some research, before I get back to you. I hope you don't mind. I will respond in a little bit.

    Best Regards,

    Bob
    Hey there Bob,

    Take all the time you need to think about things. There is no rush. Rose and I are completely open-minded to where ever the evidence may lead. Don't worry - we are not interested in "debate" for its own sake, but rather the articulation of truth as best as possible.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #9
    Hello,

    I just have a quick question for both Richard and Rose.

    First Richard, it sounds to me as if your position is Christians don't agree on Christianity. If God exists a consensus should also exist. God doesn't exist. That's my simplified version of what I think you are saying could you clarify for me?

    Second Rose, if God does something that you perceive as unfair and/or sexist, is it possible that you are looking at it from a smaller perspective and thereby missing the good reasons that God does things? I ask this because there are some things that didn't make sense to me, that even seemed cruel, but after closer examination found to be a very good choice. It's like when children don't understand some of the good choices their parents make and instead think those choices are very wrong. Often as they grow older they change their minds because they have a different perspective.

    Just Curious.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Good morning Bob,

    I really appreciate your tone, and am glad you asked these questions since many other folks have similar questions and it gives me a chance to clarify my position both for myself and others. I still have a lot to figure out.

    My departure from Christianity was a long slow process. At no stage did I make any rash decisions. My interaction with other Christians on internet forums played a big role. The more I talked with other believers, the more I found that there is no such thing as "Christianity" per se, but rather a broad range of contradictory "Christianities" based on widely divergent presuppositions and interpretations. You know the nature of Christendom. It is populated by Catholics, Greek Orthodox, ten thousand varieties of Protestants and the menagerie of fringe groups that sprang from them like JW, Mormonism, Christadelphian, Branch Davidian, Armstrongism, etc., etc., etc. It became obvious to me that it was entirely irrational to think that God would demand that a person must sort through all this confusion and come to the "correct interpretation" in order to be saved.

    These problems were greatly amplified when I began to see that Christianity functions as an agent of corruption in many, if not most, public expressions of that religion. For example, in 2010 Ergun Caner was exposed as a serial liar who had been lying for TEN YEARS about being a former Muslim terrorist when in fact he grew up as an ordinary American kid in Columbus, Ohio. He was president and dean of Jerry Fallwel's seminary at Liberty University, the largest Christian university in the world. I watched dumbfounded as the entire LEADERSHIP of Liberty University systematically LIED to cover up Caner's crimes. My disgust grew as I watched one of the most prominent Christian apologists, Norm Geisler, do everything in his power to cover up Caner's lies. And John Ankerberg lied too, and many small Christian ministries removed the evidence of Caner's lies from their websites. I finally realized that the entire body of Evangelical Christianity was entirely corrupt and saturated with perverse people who would knowingly lie to protect other liars. See my article Ergun Caner's Crimes against God and the Global Community if you are interested in the scatology of Christianity.

    This forum also contributed largely to the demise of my faith. I started it back in 2007 hoping folks would come and discuss the Bible Wheel, but all anyone wanted to talk about was the end of the world, the rapture, and the Second Coming. This drew me in to a detailed study of eschatology (which never was of much interest to me when writing the Bible Wheel book) and I found that the vast majority of Christians adamantly held to irrational, unbiblical, and unsupportable beliefs. So again, I found that professing "faith" in the Bible meant nothing because everyone just believes what they want, and more often than not, folks will twist the Bible to fit their beliefs rather than conforming their beliefs to the Bible. What good then was the Bible?

    And this brings us to your question posed in your second post: "What BIBLICAL components of or specifications for the biblically-defined condition of salvation do you reject and no longer want applied to yourself, that make you non-Christian?"

    My answer: All of them. I do not believe that God is going to save or damn anyone based on what they believe about what is written in the Bible. That would be radically irrational for may reasons. First, most people in history never heard of the Bible, and of those who did, they were taught whatever doctrines flowed from the religion they were born into. Mormon children are taught Mormon doctrines, etc. God cannot use "doctrines" as a righteous standard of judgment. Furthermore, the Bible is much too ambiguous to function as any kind of guide, as is obvious from the ten thousand varieties of Christianities out there. And besides that, I now reject the Christian concept of theism. I do not believe that there is a theistic style God who is a personal agent who "does things" like answer prayers, part the Red Sea, flood the planet, design the Bible Wheel, command genocide, judge people for their sins, etc. But don't get me wrong. I'm open to the possibility of spiritual/mental "Ground of Being" or "Cosmic Mind." I just don't think there is any evidence for a theistic style God.

    So what about the evidence of the Bible Wheel? As far as I know, it stands. I began presenting it on the internet in 2001. I discussed it on many forums such as theologyweb.com, the Christian ASA (American Scientific Association) mailing list, the Catholic Answers forum, and the Jews for Judaism forum. I have left a very long trail on the internet. I have responded to thousands of posts written by opponents. I consistently met with vehement opposition (or blunt dismissal) everywhere I went, but one thing stood out. To the best of my knowledge, no opponent has ever exposed any fundamental flaw or systematic error in the evidence. So from an evidentiary stance, the Bible Wheel stands. I have no option there.

    So what does it mean? I don't know. I am mystified. But I am convinced it cannot be what you suggest (and which I once firmly believed). It cannot be proof that the Bible was designed by Yahweh, because God cannot be as described in its pages.

    I look forward to discussing this with you more.

    All the very best,

    Richard

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