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  1. #1
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    Damascus shall be a ruinous heap (Isaiah 17:1)

    We cannot keep all of God's word in the forefront of our mind and in particular all the words of God that are prophecy. The reason to keep re-reading the word of God is so these things are brought to mind. Only now, because there is civil war in Syria and we see the devastation taking place in the city of Damascus are we reminded (if we had read them) of the words found in Isaiah 17:1; The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.

    Are we now witnessing the final fulfillment of those words of prophecy? All of the chapter 17 needs to be carefully read and understood. The figurative language has to be thought about in order to see what it is telling us. It is not for naught that these words have been recorded and preserved. They either tell us of past lessons to learn or give us signs of what is to come and can be seen as God fulfilling prophecy as these word are associated with events that take place.


    Towards the end of the chapter, I was struck by the imagery pertaining to the nations. We might be familiar with prophecy of Jesus which says (Matt 24:38); For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, (39) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    We have the promise of God that He would not destroy the earth again with a flood. However, it does not mean that God would not severely punish mankind again. We have the word of God in which we are told that there is to come a day of judgment and a day of vengeance in which God's wrath will be poured out on the nations, but not by way of a flood as it was in the time of Noah. However, the imagery of the flood is retained to keep in mind the judgment of God to come.

    The end of chapter 17 says; (12) Woe to the multitude of many people, which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters! (13) The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but God shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off, and shall be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind, and like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.
    As I read this, I see that the nations are likened to a great flood. All the nations cover the earth. The nations are like seas. Figuratively, the seas are covering the whole earth and now the nations are described as "rushing" about. Hence the seas ebb and flow across the land as it did in the time of the Great Flood when great destruction to land and people was done. A great reduction in the earth's population will be caused in the time to come when God uses the natural elements to bring destruction on the nations. With all the events we see happening and we know from God's word what must happen before the return of Jesus, so we see that we are living in a time near to the return of Jesus. The picture presented to us of the nations likened to seas flooding the earth is just another reminder and shows the underlying pattern and consistency of God's word.

    You might ask; how are the nations seen as "rushing"? One might think that this is a sign of modern transport by which we jet around the world and cover great distances quickly in our motor cars. The other way of seeing this situation unfolding is to consider the great nations like America, Britain, and Russia and the European forces "rushing" to send warships and submarines to the Middle East. God will draw all nations into the Middle East. All nations will be affected by what takes place in the Middle East. We are told to watch and as we watch, if we know what signs to look for and know what prophecies have yet to see their complete fulfillment, so we can be assured that God's word is alive and active.

    I trust you find this food for thought.



    David
    Last edited by David M; 12-15-2012 at 04:11 AM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by L67 View Post
    Damascus was destroyed. The Annals of the Assyrians confirms this. You also didn't read the link very well. Page 12:

    Tiglath-pileser III destroyed 591 cities of 16 districts of Damascus (Ann 23:16’-7’). Ann 18 and 24 mention a total of 13,520 deportees (36); however, their fragmentary status does not allow specifying where the deportees came from. These numbers do not include the captured soldiers mentioned in Ann 23:6’-7’. Biblical sources mention the deportation from Ijon, Abel-beth-maacah, Janoah, Kedesh, Hazor, Gilead, Galilee, and the land of Naphtali (2 Kgs 15,29). The Chroni- cler’s account mentions the deportation of the Reubenites, the Gadites, and the half-tribe of Manasseh (1 Chr 5,26) and the deportation of Beerah, the chieftain of the Reubenites (1 Chr 5,6).

    Sorry you misread. Damascus was totally destroyed.

    Also Damascus was NOT left in tact. Israel was left intact.


    In 732 BC, the kingdom of Damascus lost its independence and existence, its holdings carved up into Assyrian provinces. Israel, on the other hand, was allowed to survive, albeit reduced to a fraction of its former size and cut off from the sea. Tiglatpileser put it under the rule of a new king, Hoshea, chosen to serve as a loyal executor of Assyrian interests.

    Israel's northern territories came under direct Assyrian rule. The newly established province of Megiddo centred around the city of the same name and included also the coastal regions with the harbour of Dor.


    Read it for yourself. http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/saao/a...ntries/israel/




    That is NOT the conclusion supported by evidence and history. Isaiah is NOT future. To think Isaiah is future is to ignore the overwhelming evidence that Isaiah was speaking of the OT times.

    Also like I proved above you only cherry picked what you wanted to confirm. Damascus was utterly destroyed. The Annals of the Assyrians says the destruction was so great that it looked like "like hills over which the flood had swept".

    Therefore your conclusions are still wrong.
    Hello L67

    In reply to this post and specifically do with the destruction of Damascus, I have brought your post into this thread where it belongs.

    I see from your quote again that is was 591 cities and 16 regions of Damascus which were destroyed and that is I agree a devastation of the region. What were these 591 cities? For the word "cities", would the word "villages" be more appropriate?

    I quoted from the same web page as the facts above are stated, it also said that the HQ of the invading Assyrian army was set up in Damascus. This tells me that the main city of Damascus was not destroyed.

    Here is the url to book/website you sent me to and I have extracted the part which does not indicate the City was destroyed.
    http://www.biblicalstudies.ru/OT/Dubovsky.pdf

    In this phase Tiglath-pileser III turned finally against Damascus,
    captured it, and executed Rezin (2 Kgs 16,9). Then he established his
    temporarily seat there and received the homage of the vassal rulers
    (Ahaz’s visit to Damascus 2 Kgs 16,10)
    I have been looking for other commentaries about Damascus and one I found said simply; "Damascus was destroyed". This would agree with your conclusion, and many could easily think this from just reading this one article. However, that article is misleading and the majority of articles I have read say nothing of the complete destruction of the main city of Damascus. In agreement with what I have read and heard spoken of Damascus, here is an article in which it summarizes the history or the City of Damascus;
    http://beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/20...s-2445560.html

    Damascus is one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities on earth. It has been attacked, besieged, and conquered. But Damascus has never been completely destroyed and left uninhabited.
    I leave readers to go to the link to read the whole article. The part I have quoted, agrees with what I have been saying in my replies to you and that the webpage you sent me to, does not clearly indicate that the main city of Damascus was destroyed.

    It is expected by Bible scholars that Isaiah 17:1 is in the process of being fulfilled now and we shall have to wait and see the outcome. How long this will take, we do not know and so we can only watch and see what happens.


    All the best

    David
    Last edited by David M; 06-17-2013 at 10:34 PM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello L67

    In reply to this post and specifically do with the destruction of Damascus, I have brought your post into this thread where it belongs.

    I see from your quote again that is was 591 cities and 16 regions of Damascus which were destroyed and that is I agree a devastation of the region. What were these 591 cities? For the word "cities", would the word "villages" be more appropriate?
    No cities would be the appropriate word.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I quoted from the same web page as the facts above are stated, it also said that the HQ of the invading Assyrian army was set up in Damascus. This tells me that the main city of Damascus was not destroyed.

    Here is the url to book/website you sent me to and I have extracted the part which does not indicate the City was destroyed.
    No matter how much you refuse to accept the evidence I have given, it doesn't change it's validity. You keep looking for ways to confirm your preconceived bias. This proves that. You focus on one part of the whole 18 page document that you think confirms your beliefs. Sorry you're wrong. You have to go read your history. You have to understand the time period in which Isaiah was prophesying. Tiglath-pileser III attack on Damscus in 734-732BC was exactly in Isaiah's day. It lines up perfectly. It would be absurd to say Isaiah was talking about events thousands of years into the future. History confirms it.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I have been looking for other commentaries about Damascus and one I found said simply; "Damascus was destroyed". This would agree with your conclusion, and many could easily think this from just reading this one article. However, that article is misleading and the majority of articles I have read say nothing of the complete destruction of the main city of Damascus. In agreement with what I have read and heard spoken of Damascus, here is an article in which it summarizes the history or the City of Damascus;
    This is not my conclusion. This is histories conclusion. The info is there. I gave it to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I leave readers to go to the link to read the whole article. The part I have quoted, agrees with what I have been saying in my replies to you and that the webpage you sent me to, does not clearly indicate that the main city of Damascus was destroyed.

    It is expected by Bible scholars that Isaiah 17:1 is in the process of being fulfilled now and we shall have to wait and see the outcome. How long this will take, we do not know and so we can only watch and see what happens.
    You actually believe a stupid conspiracy theory website that has no fact checking? What is a matter with you? This just goes to show the lengths Christians will go to confirm their bias at all cost. You obviously aren't interested in facts. Nothing you have ever presented has ever supported your argument. You are making stuff up when you say that the main city of Damascus was not destroyed.

    You ignore the writings of an accomplished professor and post crap from a conspiracy theory website? Again, what is a matter with you? Do you have anyone with these credentials that support your argument?

    http://www.biblico.it/professori/dubovsky.html


    Prof. Peter DUBOVSKY, S.J.

    Birth

    May 29th 1965, Piešťany, Slovakia
    Personal:

    Member of the Society of Jesus
    Roman Catholic Priest ordained in June 1997

    Education:

    Harvard Divinity School, Cambridge MA (1999-2005)
    Specialization: Hebrew Bible – Degree: Th.D.

    Pontificio Instituto Biblico, Rome (1996-99)
    Specialization: Biblical studies– Degree: S.S.L., Magna cum laude

    École Biblique et Archaeologique Française de Jerusalem, Jerusalem
    Spring semester of 1998– Special studies in Archaeology and Geography of Israel

    Hebrew University of Jerusalem (summer 1995) – Specialization: Biblical Hebrew

    Pontificia Universit* Gregoriana, Rome(1993-96) –
    Specialization: Theology – Degree: Bachelor, Magna cum laude

    Theological Institute of St. Aloisius, Bratislava (1991-93) – Specialization: Philosophy

    Slovak Technical University, Bratislava (1983-88)
    Specialization: Biochemistry
    Degree: Master of Sciences, Summa cum laude

    Professional experience:

    Prof. of the Old Testament exegesis at Pontifical Biblical Institute in Rome, spring semester 2006-;
    Prof. of the Old Testament Exegesis and Hebrew at Trnava University (Slovakia) 2004-08;
    Prof. of the Old Testament Studies at Trnava University (Slovakia), spring semester of 1999-2000;
    Prof. of Religion at Collegio Massimo in Rome, 1992-3;
    Research assistant at the Slovak Academy of Science 1989-90.

    Awards and grants:

    Dean’s Dissertation Fellowship in 2003, Harvard Divinity School
    Pheiffer’s grant in 2001, Harvard University
    Pheiffer’s grant in 2000, Harvard University
    Winner of the International Competition in Biochemical Technologies in 1987, Prague

    Field experience:

    Eastern Turkey, May 2004, survey of Urartian fortresses
    Israel, March-May 2004, collecting information on Neo-Assyrian remains
    Syria, Summer 2002, three weeks of field work
    Greece and Turkey, Summer 2001, six weeks of field work under the guidance of Prof. H. Koester (Harvard University) and other distinguished European archaeologists
    Israel, Leon-Levy expedition 2000, seven weeks of field work in Ashqalon under the direction of Prof. L. Stager (Harvard University)
    Jordan, June 1998, field work under the guidance of professors of École Biblique et Archaeologique Française de Jerusalem
    Israel, Spring semester 1997/8, field works organized by École Biblique et Archaeologique Française de Jerusalem

    Professional organizations:

    International Association for Assyriology
    Catholic Biblical Association
    Society of the Biblical Literature

    Bibliography
    Monographs:

    Dubovský, P. Hezekiah and the Assyrian Spies: Reconstruction of the Neo-Assyrian Intelligence Services and Its Significance for 2 Kings 18–19, Biblica et Orientalia 49. Roma: Pontificio Istituto Biblico, 2006.

    Edited volumes:

    Dubovský, P. ed., Genezis: Preklad a komentár. KSZ I. Trnava: Dobrá Kniha 2008.
    Varšo, M. Abdiáš, Jonáš, Micheáš. Edited by P. Dubovský, KSZ II. Trnava: Dobrá kniha, 2010.

    Book sections:

    Dubovský, P. “Aktualizovanie Dekalógu v starovekom Izraeli.” In Legislat*vne Texty Biblie III, edited by Pavol Farkaš, 58-64. Bratislava - Nitra: UK Bratislava, 2009.
    Dubovský, P. “Genesis 39 and the Tale of the Two Brothers.” In Bible et Terre Sainte, edited by J. E. Aguilar Chiu, 47-61. New York; Washington: Peter Lang, 2008.
    Dubovský, P. “Súčasné exegetické prúdy versus teológia a pastorácia dnes.” In Fórum pastoráln*ch teologů VII: Jak vykládat P*smo Svaté, 19-26. Olomouc: Centrum Aletti, 2008.
    Brodňanská, E., P. Dubovský, and H. Panczová. O Nepravej ženskej kráse. Bratislava: Teologická fakulta Trnavskej univerzity, 2007. (About False Women’s Beauty – Translations and Introduction to Tertulian’s writings)
    Dubovský, P. “Neo-Assyrian Warfare: Logistics and Weaponry During the Campaigns of Tiglath-Pileser III.” In Proceedings of the International Symposium: Arms and Armour through the Ages, edited by M. Novotná, W. Jobst, M. Dufková, K. Kuzmová and P. Hnila, 61-67. Trnava: Trnavská Univerzita, 2006.
    Dubovský, P. “*truktúra patriarchálnej rodiny v Starom Zákone a jej vplyv na nerozlučnosť manželstva.” In Rodina v súčasnom svete, 9-18. Bratislava: TF TU, 2006. (The Structure of Israelite Patriarchal Family)
    Dubovský, P. “Melchizedek a jeho obeta v dejinách biblickej interpretácie.” In Sväté P*smo a Bož*kult: Zborn*k z konferencie s medzinárodnou účasťou, edited by P. Fedor, 39-58. Svit: Katol*cke Biblické Dielo, 2006. (Melchizedek and his Offer: History of Interpretation)
    Dubovský, P. “Rovnosť v teórii, nerovnosť v praxi: Pohľad Biblie na postavenie muža a ženy.” In Muž a žena z personalistického hľadiska, edited by J. Letz and A. Démuth, 51-58. Trnava: FF TU, 2005. (Gn 1 and Gn 2: Equality in Theory and Oppression in Practice)
    Dubovský, P. “Protoevanjelium a mariologická Interpretácia.” In Úcta k presvätej bohorodičke na kresťanskom Východe, 175-89. Košice: Centrum Spirituality Východ-Západ Michala Lacku, 2005. (Gn 3,15: Iconographic Interpretation of the Hebrew Vocabulary)

    Articles:

    Dubovský, P. “Riping Open Pregnant Arab Women: Reliefs in Room L of Ashurbanipal’s North Palace.” Or 78, no. 3 (2009): 394-419.
    Dubovský, P. “Historicko-kritická metóda a jej uplatnenie v teologickej reflexii na Slovensku.” StBiSl (2008): 8-17.
    Dubovský, P. “Assyrian Downfall through Isaiah’s Eyes (2 Kings 15-23): The Historiography of Representation.” Bib 89 (2008): 1-16.
    Dubovský, P. “Conquest and Reconquest of Muṣaṣir in the 8th Century BCE.” SAAB XV (2006): 141-46.
    Dubovský, P. “Tiglath-pileser III’s Campaigns in 734-732 B.C.: Historical Background of Isa 7, 2 Kgs 15-16 and 2 Chr 27-28.” Bib 87 (2006): 153-70.
    Dubovský, P. “Poklady na Slovenských farách: Latinský text Frankfurtského vydania.” In Studia Biblica Slovaca 2006, edited by B. *trba, 108-144. Svit: Katol*cke Biblické Dielo, 2006. (Discovery of Pagnino’s Bible in Slovakia)
    Dubovský, P. “Poklady na Slovenských farách: Frankfurtské vydanie Vatableho úpravy Pagninovho latinského prekladu Biblie.” In Studia Biblica Slovaca 2006, edited by B. *trba, 145-60. Svit: Katol*cke Biblické Dielo, 2006. (Analysis of Pagnino’s Latin Bible)
    Dubovský, P. “Postmoderná kr*za hodnôt a Kniha Kazateľ.” Teologický časopis IV/2 (2006): 35-50. (Postmodern Crisis and Qohelet)
    Dubovský, P. “Výklad Svätého P*sma: hermeneutický model založený na teórii štyroch kultúr.” In Studia Biblica Slovaca 2005, 17-38. Svit: Katol*cke Biblické Dielo, 2005. (New Hermeneutic Model Based on the Theory of the Four Cultures of the West)
    Dubovský, P., and M. Sova. “Návrh transliterácie a prepisu hebrejských spoluhlások a samohlások do slovenčiny.” In Studia Biblica Slovaca 2005, 73-76. Svit: Katol*cke Biblické Dielo, 2005. (Transliteration of Hebrew into Slovak Language)
    Dubovský, P. “A Sociological Reading of Slavery Legislation in the Covenant Code and Other Biblical and Extra-Biblical Documents.” Studia Aloisiana (2004): 59-75.
    Dubovský, P. “Cosmology in 1 Henoch.” Arch*v Orientáln* 68 (2000): 205-218.
    Dubovský, P. “Roveto Ardente.” Studia Aloisiana (1999): 45-62.

    Book reviews:

    Garbini, G. Scrivere la storia d’Israele: Vicende e memorie ebraiche (Biblioteca di storia e storiografia dei tempi biblici 15; Brescia: Paideia, 2008) in CBQ 72 (2010): 109-110.
    Abate, E. La fine del regno di Sedecia (Textos y studios «Cardenal Cisneros» de la Biblia Pol*glota Matritense 76; Consejo Superior de Investigaciones Cient*ficas; Madrid 2008) in Estudios B*blicos 67 (2009): 511-13.

    Talks and lectures:

    November 11th-23rd, 2010, Did Shalmaneser Conquer Samaria. SBL in Atlanta.
    October 8th-9th, 2010, Rhetorical and Historico-Critical Analysis of Mark. New Testament Seminar in Nitra, Slovakia.
    September 10th-11th, 2010, Divine Anger in the Book of Exodus. Conference on Exodus *– Modern Interpretation of an Ancient Book in Badin, Slovakia.
    July 31st-August 2nd, 2010, Samaritan Lions. CBA Meeting in Los Angeles.
    July 26th-30th, 2010, Angry Gods Intervene into Human History. 56th RAI in Barcelona.
    February 12th-14th, 2010, Legal Texts of Ex 21-24. Exodus Seminar in Badin, Slovakia.
    January 14th-15th, 2010, Mark 14: Literary Analysis. New Testament Seminar in Badin, Slovakia.
    December 14th-17th 2009, The Last Days of Elam: Analysis of ABL 280. Susa and Elam: Archaeological, Philological, Historical and Geographical Perspectives in Gent, Belgium.
    October 9th, 2009, Aktualizovanie Dekalógu v starovekom Izraeli (Actualization of the Decalogue in the Ancient Israel), Third Congress on Legislative text of the Bible in Nitra, Slovakia.
    August 1-4th, 2009, Causes of the Downfall of Samaria; CBA Meeting in Omaha, USA.
    June 30th-July 4th, 2009, Before the Fall; SBL International Meeting in Rome
    September 24th-26th, 2008, Exegesis of Ex 19; Exodus Seminar in Badin (Slovak Reublic).
    July 20th-25th, 2008, The Direct Control of the King: The Role of qiāpu Officials in Neo-Assyrian administration; 54th RAI in Würtzburg.
    May 13th, 2008, Trends in Modern Exegesis, International Symposium on Theology and Bible in Olomouc (Czech Republic).
    December 21st, 2007, Assyrian Spies in Iraq; Faculty Seminar Organized by the Department of Classical Archaeology at TF TU, Trnava.
    November 16th-19th, 2007, Cult Area in Korocu Kale: The Results of Archaeological Survey in Eastern Turkey in 2004; Cult and Sanctuary in Antiquity: International Archaeological Congress in Časta, Slovakia, organized by Universities and Institutes of Classical Archaeology Trnava-Konya-Bursa and Slovak Archaeological Society.
    November 12th-14th, 2007, The Books of Kings in the Light of the Cuneiform Documents; A Series of Lectures at Four Universities in Slovakia organized by the Slovak Ministry of Education.
    November 24th, 2006, Structure of Patriarchal Family in the Old Testament and and its Influence on marriage; 2nd Conference on Family in the Contemporary World in Bratislava.
    September 14th, 2006, The siege of Jerusalem from the Assyrian Point of View; Meeting of Studia Biblica Slovaca in Bad*n.
    July 17th-21st, 2006, The Role of Intelligence Services in Planning Campaigns: A Case-Study of the Urarto-Cimmerian War and Sargon’s 8th Campaign; 52e Rencontre Assyrologique Internationale in Münster.
    November 26th, 2005, Protoevangelium and its Mariological Interpretation; International Conference Organized by the Center of Spirituality East-West of Michal Lacko in Košice.
    November 20th, 2005, Arms and Warfare Techniques in the Neo-Assyrian Period; International Symposium Arms and Armour Through the Ages (form the Bronze Age to Late Antiquity) organized by Universities and Institutes of Classical Archaeology Trnava-Konya-Bursa and Slovak Archaeological Society.
    October 14th, 2005, Equality in theory inequality in praxis: biblical view of man and woman; International Colloquium Man and Woman from a personalistic point of view organized the Philosophical faculty of Trnava University.
    April 28th, 2005, Mechanics of Neo-Assyrian Empire: Reconstruction of the Neo-Assyrian Services during the 8th and 7th century B.C.E.; faculty seminar at Trnava University.
    April 25th, 2005, Melchizedech in the context of Gn 14 and Later Interpretations; International Conference Bible and Cult organized by KBD and GBF Prešov.
    December 13th, 2004, Post-modern Values in the Context of the Book of Qohelet; faculty seminar at the Catholic University of Slovakia in Ružomberok.


    And then we have another university that says the same thing. http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/saao/a...ntries/israel/

    In 732 BC, the kingdom of Damascus lost its independence and existence, its holdings carved up into Assyrian provinces. Israel, on the other hand, was allowed to survive, albeit reduced to a fraction of its former size and cut off from the sea. Tiglatpileser put it under the rule of a new king, Hoshea, chosen to serve as a loyal executor of Assyrian interests.

    Israel's northern territories came under direct Assyrian rule. The newly established province of Megiddo centred around the city of the same name and included also the coastal regions with the harbour of Dor.


    This confirms exactly like Isaiah says. I'm sorry your doctrine has deceived you into thinking Damascus being destroyed is a future event.
    Last edited by L67; 06-18-2013 at 06:03 PM.
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace - Jimi Hendrix


  4. #4
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    Hello L67

    Quote Originally Posted by L67 View Post
    This is not my conclusion. This is histories conclusion. The info is there. I gave it to you.
    You gave me a link to a website article that did not say the main city of Damascus was destroyed. It could not have been if Tiglath Pileser set up his headquarters there. That is what it says, so what do you make of those words? You have to give me more evidence that the main city of Damascus was completely destroyed and not just the surrounding districts.


    Quote Originally Posted by L67 View Post
    You ignore the writings of an accomplished professor and post crap from a conspiracy theory website? Again, what is a matter with you? Do you have anyone with these credentials that support your argument?
    I do not doubt this man is very accomplished. Give me the part of his work that shows the main city of Damascus was destroyed. This is not just about what you or I believe, it is a matter of getting the history books correct. I have read many articles and with the exception of one so far, they do not say the main city of Damascus was destroyed. I am not being selective, I have gone looking for the evidence and in the books and websites I have visited, the majority do not say what you are saying. That web page you sent me to did not say it. It makes no difference you saying; " I am right and you are wrong". Let someone else add their comment and give us what evidence they can find to say whether Damascus was completely destroyed or not. I am wanting to see the evidence and then I will be satisfied.

    I accept the Damascus region was severely damaged and that would have impacted on the prosperity of the region, but did the main city of Damascus ever stop from being a center for trade?

    All the best

    David

  5. #5
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    Here is what the UNESCO website has to say about Damascus. This is just an extract taken from the page. As far as I know this is not a religious website and certainly not a " a stupid conspiracy theory website".

    http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/20

    Long Description

    Damascus is considered to be the oldest city as well as the oldest capital of the world. It is the cradle of historical civilizations, constituting a beacon of science and art over time, and a historical encyclopaedia which tells a great part of the history of humanity. In the same way, it represents a historical reference for comparing the systems of architecture and town planning over several thousand years.

    Founded in the 3rd millennium BC, Damascus is one of the oldest cities in the Middle East. Dominated to the west by Mount Qasiyun and bounded to the east by the desert, Damascus was founded, with the name of Palmyra, in an oasis that was very fertile thanks to the presence of the River Barada, a meeting place for cultures and caravans. It was the capital of an Aramaic kingdom (11th-7th centuries BC), often at war with the kings of Israel and temporarily conquered by King David. After being defeated twice by the Assyrians, it was definitively conquered by Nebuchadnezzar in 600 BC. It fell into Persian hands in 530 BC, and then in 333 BC it was annexed to the empire of Alexander the Great. The two adjoining areas were unified by the Romans, during the reigns of Septimius Severus and his son Caracalla (AD 197-217). The city was enclosed by a single ring of enclosure walls that are still be identified. After the interval of rule by the Sassanid Parthians, in 636 its fate was sealed permanently as part of the Arab world, becoming the prestigious and monumental capital of the Umayyad caliph. The city then began to expand outside the enclosure walls and enjoyed a time of particular economic prosperity, which continued despite its loss of capital status under the Mameluke dynasty and the devastation wrought during the Mongol incursion.
    David

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Here is what the UNESCO website has to say about Damascus. This is just an extract taken from the page. As far as I know this is not a religious website and certainly not a " a stupid conspiracy theory website".

    http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/20

    Long Description

    Damascus is considered to be the oldest city as well as the oldest capital of the world. It is the cradle of historical civilizations, constituting a beacon of science and art over time, and a historical encyclopaedia which tells a great part of the history of humanity. In the same way, it represents a historical reference for comparing the systems of architecture and town planning over several thousand years.

    Founded in the 3rd millennium BC, Damascus is one of the oldest cities in the Middle East. Dominated to the west by Mount Qasiyun and bounded to the east by the desert, Damascus was founded, with the name of Palmyra, in an oasis that was very fertile thanks to the presence of the River Barada, a meeting place for cultures and caravans. It was the capital of an Aramaic kingdom (11th-7th centuries BC), often at war with the kings of Israel and temporarily conquered by King David. After being defeated twice by the Assyrians, it was definitively conquered by Nebuchadnezzar in 600 BC. It fell into Persian hands in 530 BC, and then in 333 BC it was annexed to the empire of Alexander the Great. The two adjoining areas were unified by the Romans, during the reigns of Septimius Severus and his son Caracalla (AD 197-217). The city was enclosed by a single ring of enclosure walls that are still be identified. After the interval of rule by the Sassanid Parthians, in 636 its fate was sealed permanently as part of the Arab world, becoming the prestigious and monumental capital of the Umayyad caliph. The city then began to expand outside the enclosure walls and enjoyed a time of particular economic prosperity, which continued despite its loss of capital status under the Mameluke dynasty and the devastation wrought during the Mongol incursion.


    David
    Thank you for proving my point. That was precisely in Isaiah's day. And that confirms everything else I have posted.
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace - Jimi Hendrix


  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello L67

    You gave me a link to a website article that did not say the main city of Damascus was destroyed. It could not have been if Tiglath Pileser set up his headquarters there. That is what it says, so what do you make of those words? You have to give me more evidence that the main city of Damascus was completely destroyed and not just the surrounding districts.
    You are changing your argument David. You originally asked me when was Damascus left a ruinous heap. After I thoroughly proved that(even though you deny plain evidence) you have moved on to another argument. You're grasping at straws David.


    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I do not doubt this man is very accomplished. Give me the part of his work that shows the main city of Damascus was destroyed. This is not just about what you or I believe, it is a matter of getting the history books correct. I have read many articles and with the exception of one so far, they do not say the main city of Damascus was destroyed. I am not being selective, I have gone looking for the evidence and in the books and websites I have visited, the majority do not say what you are saying. That web page you sent me to did not say it. It makes no difference you saying; " I am right and you are wrong". Let someone else add their comment and give us what evidence they can find to say whether Damascus was completely destroyed or not. I am wanting to see the evidence and then I will be satisfied.

    I accept the Damascus region was severely damaged and that would have impacted on the prosperity of the region, but did the main city of Damascus ever stop from being a center for trade?
    No, David this is about you trying to confirm your beliefs. This is plain as day. I have caught you changing your argument from "when was Damascus left a ruinous heap", to "when was the main city" of Damascus destroyed".

    You are making up the "when was the main city of Damascus destroyed". Because the Bible never mentions any such thing.

    Isaiah 17 17 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.

    2 The cities of Aroer are forsaken: they shall be for flocks, which shall lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

    3 The fortress also shall cease from Ephraim, and the kingdom from Damascus, and the remnant of Syria: they shall be as the glory of the children of Israel, saith the Lord of hosts.


    http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/saao/a...ntries/israel/

    In 732 BC, the kingdom of Damascus lost its independence and existence, its holdings carved up into Assyrian provinces. Israel, on the other hand, was allowed to survive, albeit reduced to a fraction of its former size and cut off from the sea. Tiglatpileser put it under the rule of a new king, Hoshea, chosen to serve as a loyal executor of Assyrian interests.

    Israel's northern territories came under direct Assyrian rule. The newly established province of Megiddo centred around the city of the same name and included also the coastal regions with the harbour of Dor.


    The 18 page document confirms Damascus was destroyed and left a ruinous heap, as does the Annals of the Assyrians. The link above also show that Damascus lost its existence like Isaiah said.

    You have no more argument to make David. You can either accept this or you can live in denial.
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace - Jimi Hendrix


  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by L67 View Post
    Thank you for proving my point. That was precisely in Isaiah's day. And that confirms everything else I have posted.


    Hello L67

    No it does not. It proves that Damascus was conquered. I have never denied that. It does not confirm the city of Damascus was made a ruinous heap. The city survived and continued. The cities in the regions about Damascus were destroyed, but the city which was Damascus was not destroyed. I have not changed my argument. The city changed hands, but the city was not destroyed. The Isaiah fulfilment was only in part at that time and the complete fulfilment has not happened. Damascus remains a city to this day and we shall have to wait and see what becomes of Damascus. The verse in Isaiah says; Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.

    "Taken away from being a city" and becoming a "ruinous heap" simply did not happen when you say it did. Again, you have to show me evidence of that happening. I have found no article in which that is said and the article you sent me to first writing about Tiglat-pileser III did not say the city was destroyed, but it was made his headquarters. I have to keep recalling this point until you give me evidence to the contrary.

    All the best

    David
    Last edited by David M; 06-20-2013 at 03:21 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello L67

    No it does not. It proves that Damascus was conquered. I have never denied that. It does not confirm the city of Damascus was made a ruinous heap. The city survived and continued. The cities in the regions about Damascus were destroyed, but the city which was Damascus was not destroyed. I have not changed my argument. The city changed hands, but the city was not destroyed. The Isaiah fulfilment was only in part at that time and the complete fulfilment has not happened. Damascus remains a city to this day and we shall have to wait and see what becomes of Damascus. The verse in Isaiah says; Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.

    "Taken away from being a city" and becoming a "ruinous heap" simply did not happen when you say it did. Again, you have to show me evidence of that happening. I have found no article in which that is said and the article you sent me to first writing about Tiglat-pileser III did not say the city was destroyed, but it was made his headquarters. I have to keep recalling this point until you give me evidence to the contrary.

    All the best

    David
    Yes it does. I have given you the evidence but you refuse to accept any of it. You absolutely will not even try to understand any of the evidence I have given you. Instead you look for bogus sources that only confirm your beliefs.

    According to the Assyrian Annals, we read that the destruction of Damascus was so great that it left hundreds of sites looking "like hills over which the flood had swept". It is well known fact among historians that the reduction of the much of city to rubble was widespread and extended into Syria and the Transjordan.

    From the 18 page document I gave you. http://www.biblicalstudies.ru/OT/Dubovsky.pdf

    This is all based on the Bible and the historical Annals of the Assyrians.


    According to Table 1. Aram and Israel seem to suffer the most serious repercussions of the rebellion. Summ. 4:16’ mentions that Tiglath-pileser III deported from Israel “all his (Pekah’s) people”. As for Aram, Tiglath-pileser III deported 800 people from the home of Rezin ([URUx]-ha-a-da-ra), 750 captives from South-syrian cities Kurus≥s≥a and Sama, and 550 from Meturna (Ann 23:13’-5’). Moreover, Tiglath-pileser III destroyed 591 cities of 16 districts of Damascus (Ann 23:16’-7’). Ann 18 and 24 mention a total of 13,520 deportees(36); however, their fragmentary status does not allow specifying where the deportees came from. These numbers do not include the captured soldiers mentioned in Ann 23:6’-7’. Biblical sources mention the deportation from Ijon, Abel-beth-maacah, Janoah, Kedesh, Hazor, Gilead, Galilee, and the land of Naphtali (2 Kgs 15,29). The Chroni- cler’s account mentions the deportation of the Reubenites, the Gadites, and the half-tribe of Manasseh (1 Chr 5,26) and the deportation of Beerah, the chieftain of the Reubenites (1 Chr 5,6).

    In tributes and gifts Tiglath-pileser III received at least 80 talents of gold and 2,800 talents of silver (see Table 1.). Besides this, he seized the property of kings Hiram, Hanunu and queen Samsi and the property of at least 14,320 people. Tiglath-pileser III’s army had also devastating impact on the region. According to the biblical sources the Assyrian army captured these cities: Ijon, Abel-beth-maacah, Janoah, Kedesh, and Hazor (2 Kgs 15,29)(37). According to Assyrian sources the Assyrians captured 14 major cities whose names appear in the inscriptions or on the reliefs from Nimrud and 621 smaller cities. This resulted in the destruction of 16 Aramean districts and 16 Israelite districts. The destructive impact of the Neo-Assyrian invasion is docu- mented by archaeological surveys and excavations. Z. Gal surveyed Galilee and showed that the region was destroyed in the late 8th century B.C. and most of the cities were never rebuilt. A similar picture emerges from the several excavations conducted in Golan, Gilead, and Galilee(38). Several cities such as Dan, Hazor, Chinnereth, Betsaida, Tel Hadar, ‘En gev, Beth-Shean, Kedesh, Megiddo, Jokneam, Qiri, Acco, Keisam, Shiqnona, and Dor were destroyed in the 8th century B.C. Some of them were left abandoned for many years(39).

    Aram lost its independence and was annexed to Assyria. At the head of this new Assyrian province was appointed an Assyrian eunuch
    governor of the Damascus province (Summ. 4:7’-8’; 9:3-4)(40). This province included Transjordan, in particular Gilead, and the territory down to Abel-Shittim. Thus, Transjordan did not revert to Israel. After the defeat of the Syro-Ephraimite coalition Transjordan fell under the direct control of a new Damascene province(41).


    The Assyrians left behind them not only ruined cities but also the monuments recalling their sovereignty. Tiglath-pileser III erected a victory stele in Gaza and “counted it among the great gods” (Summ. 8:16’; 4:10’-1’)(52) Besides the stele, Tiglath-pileser III also left behind some living reminders of his might. Appointing Ibidi’ilu as the “Gatekeeper facing Egypt” (Summ. 4:34’; 7:6’; 13:16’), Tiglath- pileser III established his control over the border with Egypt and received information about the development in the region on a regular basis(53)


    This review of the aftermaths of Tiglath-pileser III’s campaigns indicates that the Assyrians used several means to keep the territory under their control. The destruction of the cities, heavy tributes, and pillaging of entire regions economically debilitated the region. Even though the numbers of deportees are imprecise, Tiglath-pileser III’s massive deportation of the local inhabitants and their substitution with exiles from another parts of the Empire weakened local resistance. Finally, the administrative reorganization strengthened Assyrian control and kept the royal court in Nineveh informed about the most recent developments in the Levant on a regular basis. Thus, the combination of sophisticated logistics with good administration was one of the prerequisites of successful Assyrian control of the Levant.

    This link confirms this as well. http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/saao/a...ntries/israel/

    In 732 BC, the kingdom of Damascus lost its independence and existence, its holdings carved up into Assyrian provinces. Israel, on the other hand, was allowed to survive, albeit reduced to a fraction of its former size and cut off from the sea. Tiglatpileser put it under the rule of a new king, Hoshea, chosen to serve as a loyal executor of Assyrian interests.

    All of this ties into what Isaiah was prophesying about. It is completely absurd to even think Isaiah is a future fulfillment.
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace - Jimi Hendrix


  10. #10
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    Hello L67
    You can forget all that you put in print and emboldened in red. You have given me the evidence that supports my case in the pdf document of Dubovsky.

    Quote Originally Posted by L67 View Post
    Yes it does. I have given you the evidence but you refuse to accept any of it. You absolutely will not even try to understand any of the evidence I have given you. Instead you look for bogus sources that only confirm your beliefs.

    According to the Assyrian Annals, we read that the destruction of Damascus was so great that it left hundreds of sites looking "like hills over which the flood had swept". It is well known fact among historians that the reduction of the much of city to rubble was widespread and extended into Syria and the Transjordan.

    From the 18 page document I gave you. http://www.biblicalstudies.ru/OT/Dubovsky.pdf

    This is all based on the Bible and the historical Annals of the Assyrians.
    I am not accepting the bits of evidence you give me that do not clearly state the city of Damascus was destroyed.

    Here is a quote found on page 160 of the 18-page extraction from the book.
    13. A close reading of Ann 23 indicates that Tiglath-pileser III won the battle in the field but was unable to capture the headquarters of the rebellion — Damascus (21). He destroyed the environs of Damascusand captured several cities in Southern Syria/Northern Transjordan.
    There you have confirmation of what I have been saying. This actually reads slightly different to what I read in that first article you sent me to, in which I thought it was Tiglath-pielser III who set up headquarters in Damascus. Anyway, this confirms, once again, the main city that was Damascus was NOT destroyed.

    All the best
    David
    Last edited by David M; 06-21-2013 at 05:48 AM.

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