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  1. #11
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    Thumbs up some more biblical support

    Hi there!!

    Here you have some imformation you can consider:

    Genesis 1:5 is an easy scripture to understand if we allow the Bible to interpret itself. However, in most
    cases, it is also a grossly misunderstood and misrepresented scripture. As we proceed, keep in mind that
    God called the light 'day' and he called the dark 'night'. Never lose sight of the fact that scripture tells
    us that 'the evening H6153
    and the morning were the first day'. Scripture does not state that 'night
    H3915
    and
    morning' constitute a day, but 'eveningH6153
    and morning' constitute a day. This is important to
    understand!

    Genesis 1:5 tells us that 'evening and morning' make up a day. We must understand that the word
    'evening H6153
    ' is not referring to 'night
    H3915
    ', but is in fact referring to the afternoon period between noon
    and sunset. We will here give irrefutable proof to support this Biblical fact. Please carefully study the
    following examples taken directly from scripture which demonstrate that 'evening' is referring to a time
    between noon and sunset. The first example we shall discuss refers to the offerings which the Israelites
    were required to perform on a daily basis:

    'Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day
    continually. The oneH259 [H259 = FIRST] lamb thou shalt offer in the morning H1242; [H1242
    = dawn] and the otherH8145 [H8145 = SECOND] lamb thou shalt offer at evenH6153 [or,
    evening]' (Ex. 29:38-39).
    These verses tell us that the Israelites were to offer two lambs every day: verse 39 tells us that the first
    lamb was to be offered in the morning and the second lamb was to be offered in the eveningH6153
    ! This
    would mean that eveningH6153
    must refer to a time before sunset if both sacrifices were offered on the same
    day – which they were! Understand: two sacrifices took place every day; the first sacrifice was offered in
    the morning and the second sacrifice was offered at evenH6153
    , (eveningH6153
    ), which must indicate a time
    before sunset! As you read the following passage in scripture, notice all the details that take place after the
    sacrifice is performed:

    'And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice , that Elijah the prophet
    came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that
    thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.
    Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that
    thou hast turned their heart back again. Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt
    sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the
    trench. And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is
    the God; the LORD, he is the God. And Elijah said
    unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and
    Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there. And Elijah said unto
    Ahab, Get thee up, eat and drink; for there is a sound of abundance of rain. So Ahab went
    up to eat and to drink. And Elijah went up to the top of Carmel; and he cast himself down
    upon the earth, and put his face between his knees, And said to his servant, Go up now, look
    toward the sea. And he went up, and looked, and said, There is nothing. And he said, Go
    again seven times. And it came to pass at the seventh time, that he said, Behold, there
    ariseth a little cloud out of the sea, like a man's hand. And he said, Go up, say unto Ahab,
    Prepare thy chariot, and get thee down, that the rain stop thee not. And it came to pass in
    the meanwhile, that the heaven was black with clouds and wind, and there was a great rain.
    And Ahab rode, and went to Jezreel. And the hand of the LORD was on Elijah; and he
    girded up his loins, and ran before Ahab to the entrance of Jezreel' (1 Kings 18:36-46).

    Think about the above verses. All the events outlined took place about the time of, and after, the sacrifice
    offered in the eveningH6153
    . Is it not obvious that these events had to have taken place before sundown?
    How else would there have been enough light for Elijah to do all the things mentioned in these scriptures,
    including climbing to the top of Mount Carmel, and also his servant climbing the mount several times and
    able to look toward the sea? Would it have been possible to do this after sunset, or in the dark? Since
    these scriptures give the Biblical support needed to prove this undeniable fact, we use these verses in 1
    Kings 18 as conclusive evidence that support the Biblical fact we are here making – that the word
    'eveningH6153'
    refers to a time before sundown!
    Notice further in Gen. 24:11:
    "And he made his camels to kneel down without the city by a well of water at the time of the
    eveningH6153
    , even the time that women go out to draw water" (Gen. 24:11).

    Here we are told that the camels knelt by the well of water in the evening H6153
    . We are also told that
    women would go out to draw water in the 'eveningH6153
    '. Clearly, the women did not go out to draw water
    after sunset, or in the dark of night! Historical evidence confirms this! Logic confirms this! It should be
    obvious to those who really want to prove this subject, that the women in Old Testament times would
    have gone out to draw water from the wells at ‘eveningH6153
    ’, a time before sundown, while there was still
    light. The word ‘eveningH6153
    ’ in this Genesis 1:5 inarguably refers to the time period before sundown, and
    not after sundown or at night! In Genesis 1:5, when God tells us that the 'morning and evening'
    constitute a 'day', He is evidently telling us that it is the 'morning' and 'afternoon' – the light portion –
    which is 'day'!
    Again, some will still continue to argue that since 'evening' is mentioned before 'morning' a number of
    times in Genesis 1 (i.e. verses 5, 8, 13, 19, 23), then it must mean that 'evening' comes before
    'morning'. But this is clearly not the case. Notice the following verses, among others, which list the word
    'morning' before the word 'evening':
    '…the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening' (Ex. 18:13).
    '…the Philistine drew near morning and evening, and presented himself forty days' (1 Sam.
    17:16)
    note: Note that morning and evening here are again reckoned with the 'day'. The
    Philistine drew near in the light hours (morning and evening), and not at night.

    Notice the following, perhaps even clearer scripture:
    'And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To
    morrow is a feast to the LORD. And they rose up early [H7925 = early morning] on the morrow
    [H4283 = next day], and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat
    down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play' (Ex. 32:5-6).
    Did you notice that Aaron woke up on the morrow H4283
    [the next day], which was early in the morning!
    Does this not yet again clearly indicate that the morning is the beginning of a new day? If there are any
    who are still skeptical of this Biblical Truth, there is even more proof! Notice the following account in the
    book of Genesis:

    'And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her
    father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. And it came to pass on the
    morrow [H4283 = next day], that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight
    [H570 = yesterday, last night] with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go
    thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father' (Gen. 19:33-34).

    These two verses prove that the night before the morning, or 'yesternight', was reckoned with the
    previous day and was not part of the new day which begun in the morning! How plain and simple are the
    teachings of God when we allow His Word to interpret itself!

    Let us take one final look at Genesis 1:5 and discuss an additional interesting point which supports the
    Biblical fact that a day begins at sunrise and not at sunset or midnight! Notice:
    'And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the
    morning were the first dayH3117
    ' (Gen. 1:5).
    The word 'day' is translated from the Hebrew word 'yom'. Strong’s gives the following definition which
    confirms what is plainly being communicated in Gen. 1:5 regarding 'day': 'From an unused root
    meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours)…from sunrise to sunset…'. The warm hours of a day are of
    course the hours between sunrise and sunset! Furthermore, in the New Testament, the word 'day' is
    translated from the Greek word 'hemera' (Strong’s number 2250). Strong’s gives the following definition
    for 'hemera': 'the time space between dawn and dark'.

    Judges 19:9
    '9 And the man arose to go, he and his concubine and his servant. But his father-in-law, the young woman’s father, said to him, 'See, the day is now drawing toward evening. Please spend the night. See, the day is coming to an end. Stay here, and let your heart be glad. And you shall rise early tomorrow for your journey, and you shall go to your tent.'
    Note: Rising "early tomorrow" implies the start of the day being morning. You will never see the words "early, at night..."

    Numbers 11:32
    '32 And the people were up all that day, and all that night, and all the next day, and gathered the quail. He who has least gathered ten omers. And they spread them out for themselves all around the camp.'
    Note: 'that day' belongs to 'that night', then the 'next day' comes


    So far we have examined the Scriptures from which should come all our doctrine, but it is also interesting to delve into some of the studies of historians and commentaries...






    "...The nighttime is considered as belonging to the preceding period of daylight. from this there developed the meaning of "day" in the sense of the cycle made up of one period of daylight and one period of darkness, or according to our modern reckoning, twenty-four hours...from the natural viewpoint the twenty-four hour day begins at sunrise...
    however, beside this conception there arose another idea of the twenty-four hour day, according to which this daily period began at sunset. it was no doubt the lunar calendar of the Jews which gave rise to this viewpoint...
    although the earlier computation did not die out completely, the custom of considering the day as beginning at sunset became general in later Jewish times..." (Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible. p.497)

    "There can be no doubt that in pre-exilic times the Israelites reckoned the day from morning to morning. The day began with the dawn and closed with the end of the night following it..." (Jacob Zallel Lauterbach, Rabbinic Essays, (Cincinnati: Hebrew Union College Press, 1951), p. 446)

    "...To the Light He gives the name Day, to the Darkness the name Night...Thus the work of the first day, reckoned probably from morning to morning, is accomplished. The period of Light is followed by Evening and Darkness, which comes to an end with the next morning when the second day begins..." (Peake's Commentary on The Bible, p.136).

    "In the Old Testament the earlier practice seems to have been to consider that the day began in the morning. In Gen. 19:34, for example, the "morrow" (ASV) or "Next Day" (RSV) clearly begins with the morning after the preceding night..." (Jack Finegan, The Handbook of Biblical Chronology, p.7-8).

    "...In earlier traditions a day apparently began at sunrise (e.g., Lev. 7:15-17; Judg. 19:4-19)...
    later its beginning was at sunset and its end at the following sunset...
    this system became normative...
    and is still observed in Jewish tradition, where for example , the sabbath begins on Friday evening at sunset and ends Saturday at sunset..." (Oxford Companion to the Bible, p.744).

    "That the custom of reckoning the day as beginning in the evening and lasting until the following evening was probably of late origin is shown by the phrase "tarry all night" (Jdg 19:6-9); the context shows that the day is regarded as beginning in the morning; in the evening the day "declined," and until the new day (morning) arrived it was necessary to "tarry all night" (compare also Num 11:32)" (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia)

    "...It is also interesting that according to the Karaite historian Al-QirqisanI (ca. 975 CE), the dissident Meswi al-Okbari (ca.850 CE) broke from traditional Rabbinical Judaism in an attempt to get back to the original religion and began the reckoning of the day from sunrise. (The Itinerary of R. Benjamin of Tudela, ix, 5-8, ed. Gruhut-Adler, (1904), p. 23)

    "Among the Greeks the day was reckoned from sunset to sunset..." (Handbook of Chronology, op.cit., p.8)

    "Among the ancient Israelites, as among the Greeks, the day was reckoned from sunset to sunset. This was the custom also of the Gauls and ancient Germans, and was probably connected originally with the cult of the moon. There is, however, evidence that this was not the custom at all times..." (Delitzsch in Dillmann's commentary on Gen. i. 5)

    "...Early in the old testament period, when Canaan was under Egypt's influence, the day started at sunrise...
    later, perhaps under Babylonian influence, the calendar seems to have changed. the day began at moonrise (1800 hrs) and a whole day became an evening and a morning..." (Lion Encyclopedia of the Bible - p.163).

    "...The Israelites, like the Babylonians, counted their days from sunset to sunset..." (NIV Study Bible, p.707)

    "We know little about the old Israelite calendar, apart from the laws of the festivals. But the Mishnah (the collection of Jewish law made at the end of the 2nd century AD) fully describes the system which the Jews had worked out under Babylonian influence..." (Eerdman's Handbook to the Bible).

    "When the Jews returned to Palestine after their Babylonian exile (516 B.C.E.) they brought back with them the Babylonian astronomy and way of reckoning time..." (What is a Jew, p. 108)

    "In order to fix the beginning and ending of the Sabbath-day and festivals and to determine the precise hour for certain religious observances it becomes necessary to know the exact times of the rising and setting of the sun. According to the strict interpretation of the Mosaic law, every day begins with sunrise and ends with sunset... (Jewish Encyclopedia, p. 591-597)

    "Days were reckoned from morning to morning...
    Following the reign of King Josia (c. 640-609), and especially after the Babylonian exile a number of significant and enduring changes occurred in the Israelite calendar showing that the Jews gradually adopted the Babylonian calendar of the time...the seven day week persisted despite its failure to divide evenly either the month or the year. the day however, was counted from evening to evening, after the Babylonian fashion..." (New Catholic Encyclopedia -Volume 11, p.1068)

    "So far as we know, the Babylonian calendar was at all periods truly lunar...
    the month began with the evening when the new crescent was for the first time again visible shortly after sunset. consequently, the Babylonian day also begins in the evening..." (Exact Sciences in Antiquity, p.106)

    "...Numerous scholars have argued for the existence in Bible times of a sunrise method of day reckoning...the evidence for the sunrise reckoning is significant and cannot be ignored..." (The Time of the Crucifixion and the Resurrection, Chapter 5)

    "In Israel, the day was for a long time reckoned from morning to morning...and it was in fact in the morning, with the creation of light, that the world began; the distinction of day and night, and time too, began on a morning (Gen. 1:3-5, cf. 14:16, 18). The opposite conclusion has been drawn from the refrain which punctuates the story of creation: 'There was an evening and there was a morning, the first, second, etc., day'; This phrase, however, coming after the description of each creative work (which clearly happens during the period of light), indicates rather the vacant time till the morning, the end of a day and the beginning of the next work...The change of reckoning must there fore have taken place between the end of the monarchy and the age of Nehemias... this would bring us to the beginning of the exile..." (Ancient Israel, p.181-182).

    "The first evening was not the gloom, which possibly preceded the full burst of light as it came forth from the primary darkness, and intervened between the darkness and full broad daylight. It was not till after the light had been created, and the separation of the light from the darkness had taken place, that evening came, and after the evening the morning...It follows from this, that the days of creation are not reckoned from evening to evening, but from morning to morning..." (Commentary on the Old Testament, The First Book of Moses, p. 51)

    "In early Jewish practice,... it seems to have been customary to reckon the day from sunrise to sunrise, or, rather, from dawn to dawn. Thus the law for the "praise-offering" (lev. 7:17 (pt) specifies that this sacrifice must be eaten on the day upon which it is offered, and that nothing may be left until morning. The repetition of the law in Lev. 22:30... is even more explicit: "On that very day (when it was sacrificed) it shall be eaten; ye shall not leave anything of it until morning. Clearly the next morning is here reckoned as belonging to the next day, and not the same day as the preceding evening and night. In other words, the day is reckoned here from sunrise to sunrise...
    Likewise in Exod. 16:19f...the manna was given to the people in the morning, just at dawn and before the sun had become warm (16:21). It was to be eaten only on the day upon which it was gathered; nothing was to remain over until the next morning; that which did so became foul. Here, too, the day seems to have been reckoned from dawn to dawn...From Matt. 28:1 It may be inferred that the practice of reckoning the day from sunset to sunset was not universal in Israel, but in certain circles the older practice continued for several centuries...It is manifest that the day is still reckoned here from dawn to dawn. This is also the implication of the parallel passage, Mark 16:1f...Luke 23:56b-24:1 seems to imply the same...
    Finally, it is significant that in the second Temple, throughout its entire existence, the practice seems to have been in all ritual matters to reckon the day from dawn to dawn, and not according to the later practice, from sunset to sunset...even the rabbis, who, themselves, reckoned the day from sunset to sunset, and refused to admit the legitimacy of any other practice, or rather, absolutely ignored all divergent practice, none the less had to admit the validity of the interpretation of Lev. 7:15...
    the day was at one time reckoned from sunrise to sunrise...
    The earlier practice, which continued until the time of the secondary strata of the Priestly code, was to reckon the day from dawn to dawn...
    The later practice was to reckon the day from sunset to sunset...
    It is impossible to tell exactly when this change in the mode of reckoning the day took place in Israel, and what causes brought it about. Possibly it may have had something to do with the introduction of the lunar calendar instead of the solar, for the lunar calendar naturally presupposes a reckoning of the day from nightfall to nightfall...
    It was probably coincident with the revision of the festival calendar, which took place in the period after the time of Ezra, and was, in all probability, the work of the soferim or of the Great Synod in the fourth century B.C. This may also be inferred from the statement in the Talmud (Berachoth 33a) that the men of the Great Synod instituted the ceremonies of Kiddush and Havdalah, the solemn sanctification of the Sabbath on Friday eve, and its equally solemn ushering out on Saturday eve, in other words, ceremonies specifically marking the beginning and close of the Sabbath as at sunset. These were ceremonies for the Jewish home instead of the Temple. This, coupled with the fact that in the second Temple the old system of reckoning the day from dawn to dawn continued to be observed, as we have seen, may perhaps indicate that this entire innovation was the work of an anti-priestly group or party in the Great Synod..." (The Sources of the Creation Story - Gen. 1:1- 2:4, p. 169-212)

    "A new stage in the investigation of the problem of the calendar of ancient Israel was marked by the appearance of a learned article by E. Koenig in 1906...He maintains that two distinct calendars were current in ancient Israel. The first, a solar calendar...This solar calendar was well adapted to the conditions of the simple, agricultural life which the Israelites lived during the first period of their sojourn in Palestine. It reckoned the day from sunrise...
    The second calendar was a luni-solar year...The day now came quite naturally to be reckoned from sunset...This second calendar was obviously based upon Babylonian models and was adopted under direct Babylonian influence at about 600 B.C., when Babylonian religion and general culture began to affect with steadily increasing force the Jewish exiles in Babylonia and, through those of them who return from exile, the Jews who had remained in Palestine.
    This broadly sums up Koenig's conclusions...
    ...the time of the transition from the reckoning of the day as beginning with morning to the reckoning of it as beginning with evening...
    ...that in the earlier calendar and in the literature which records this the day was reckoned from the morning, presumably from sunrise, while in the later calendar and the literature pertaining thereto the day was reckoned from the evening...must be eaten upon the day upon which it is sacrificed, and that nothing of it must be allowed to remain over until morning. Obviously the implication here is that the next morning is no longer a part of the day upon which the sacrifice was offered, but mark the beginning of the next day...
    ...Elsewhere we have presented quite a mass of evidence which establishes conclusively that the earlier practice in Israel during the biblical period was to reckon the day from sunrise to sunrise...
    ...That in the earliest period of Israelite sojourn in Palestine, under calendar 1, the day was reckoned from morning to morning is established by a superabundance of evidence...
    ...This in turn, together with other important considerations, would point to a time approximately about the beginning or the first half, of the third century B.C. as that of the introduction of the new system of reckoning the day." (Supplementary Studies in The Calendars of Ancient Israel, p. 1-148).

    Note: It is interesting to note the wide variety of commentators who may not agree on many points of doctrine, but do agree that the Scriptural day begins at first light in the morning.

    so you have no only Biblical support but also historical one.



    God bless you.

  2. #12
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    Thank you guest for this most informative post explaining the day as morning and evening. If we substitute the word "afternoon" (mid-day to sunset) for the word "evening" whenever we read the word evening, then any confusion is taken away.

    Guest, I hope you will register on the forum and give us the benefit of your Bible studies on other subjects. Bringing "light" on the subjects under discussion is what we need. As Paul writes; (1 Thess 5:5) Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

    As I read your post and the part relating to Manna, we can also think about the day the people had to eat the passover before the exodus from Egypt. The lamb had to be killed in the afternoon and they had to eat it later that night. Anything not eaten by the following morning had to be completely burned so nothing remained and kept. It was at mid-night when the Angel of Death passed over. It was after midnight and in the night that Pharaoh sent for Moses. Obviously, all work does not cease at sunset and some work like baking/cooking could continue into the night as they did in that night before the Angel of death passed over and by way of interest we see where the origin of 'unleavened bread' comes in. Many more interesting facts come out as we read about events taking place during the day and during the night.

    Thank you once again guest for using Scripture to anwer this question of; "when does the day start?"


    David

  3. #13
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    "And there was night and there was day" is a very subtle verse; a person staying above the Artic circle may have months without night and months without day. This is caused by earth's revolution round the sun rather than earth's rotation. 12 hours per day (daylight) and 12 hours per night is also not very accurate depending which location of the earth. That's why I always try to see it in a different perspective as that stated in the Bible....perhaps the earth was not inclined during creation which would result in equal day and night anywhere on earth, perhaps the earth rotated much faster or slower during creation and thus the hours cannot be 12 hours daylight and 12 hours night per day, perhaps the earth revolve much faster or slower during creation; a year may therefore be a thousand years or be a day. "And there was day and there was night" therefore suggests to me to mean "And there was earth's rotation and revolution" regardless if there was earth's inclination or not.

    Therefore using the time the sun rise or set to determine day and night is not an accurate way. How then can a Jew staying around the Artic or Antartic circle to the poles observe the Passover and other Jewish rituals? The only solution I can think of is to follow the timing in Israel.

    The same problem will faced a Muslim staying around the Artic circle, how is he to pray at sunrise and sun set?


    May God blessed the Truth.
    Last edited by CWH; 05-12-2012 at 01:39 AM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    "And there was night and there was day" is a very subtle verse; a person staying above the Artic circle may have months without night and months without day. This is caused by earth's revolution round the sun rather than earth's rotation. 12 hours per day (daylight) and 12 hours per night is also not very accurate depending which location of the earth. That's why I always try to see it in a different perspective as that stated in the Bible....perhaps the earth was not inclined during creation which would result in equal day and night anywhere on earth, perhaps the earth rotated much faster or slower during creation and thus the hours cannot be 12 hours daylight and 12 hours night per day, perhaps the earth revolve much faster or slower during creation; a year may therefore be a thousand years or be a day. "And there was day and there was night" therefore suggests to me to mean "And there was earth's rotation and revolution" regardless if there was earth's inclination or not.

    Therefore using the time the sun rise or set to determine day and night is not an accurate way. How then can a Jew staying around the Artic or Antartic circle to the poles observe the Passover and other Jewish rituals? The only solution I can think of is to follow the timing in Israel.

    The same problem will faced a Muslim staying around the Artic circle, how is he to pray at sunrise and sun set?


    May God blessed the Truth.
    Hello Cheow

    It is thought that during the time of the Great Flood the earth's axis was changed. There was definite change in the pattern of weather and for the first time after it rained on the earth, Noah was shown the sight of the rainbow.

    Is this change in weather due to the changing of the earth's axis or due to the topography of the land changing. We know that mountains are responsible for causing clouds to precipitate and causing changes to wind flow and changes to weather patterns during the year.

    Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

    Without the earth's tilt there would be less variation in the seasons around the globe. The seasons would come about merely by the elliptical orbit of the earth around the sun. Could the earth's elliptical orbit have been changed at the same time the axis was tilted in the time of the Great Flood? One or all three of the following changes could have taken place at the time of the Great Flood:
    1. The earth's elliptical orbit around the sun was changed
    2. The earth's axis was tilted
    3. Great changes to the earth's topography too place.

    What other changes do you think took place that affect day and night?

    David
    Last edited by David M; 05-12-2012 at 05:24 AM.

  5. #15
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    Hello Cheow

    It is thought that during the time of the Great Flood the earth's axis was changed. There was definite change in the pattern of weather and for the first time after it rained on the earth, Noah was shown the sight of the rainbow.

    Is this change in weather due to the changing of the earth's axis or due to the topography of the land changing. We know that mountains are responsible for causing clouds to precipitate and causing changes to wind flow and changes to weather patterns during the year.

    Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

    Without the earth's tilt there would be less variation in the seasons around the globe. The seasons would come about merely by the elliptical orbit of the earth around the sun. Could the earth's elliptical orbit have been changed at the same time the axis was tilted in the time of the Great Flood? One or all three of the following changes could have taken place at the time of the Great Flood:
    1. The earth's elliptical orbit around the sun was changed
    2. The earth's axis was tilted
    3. Great changes to the earth's topography too place.

    What other changes do you think took place that affect day and night?

    David
    Hi David,

    I understand what you are talking about but unfortunately, I have no scientific evidence to answer your questions only speculations. But one thing I am quite sure from all scientific observation of the law of energy that the rotation and revolution of the earth must start slow then gradually reached a maximum speed before slowing down again as its energy dissipates just like a racing car will start from 0 km till it reaches a maximum speed before slowing down as it's fuel used up. Therefore I believe that the rotation and revolution would start slow at creation and therefore 1 day's earth rotation would be much longer than 24 hours and 1 year's revolution was much more than 1 year. The earth I believe is now in the final slowing down stage in rotation and revolution after reaching its maximum speed. That may possibly explain (although I am skeptical) why the patriachs lived such longetivity when the earth's revolution round the sun was at its maximum speed at a few months or even few weeks.


    God Blessings for you and all.
    Last edited by CWH; 05-12-2012 at 06:40 AM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    "And there was night and there was day" is a very subtle verse; a person staying above the Artic circle may have months without night and months without day. This is caused by earth's revolution round the sun rather than earth's rotation. 12 hours per day (daylight) and 12 hours per night is also not very accurate depending which location of the earth. That's why I always try to see it in a different perspective as that stated in the Bible....perhaps the earth was not inclined during creation which would result in equal day and night anywhere on earth, perhaps the earth rotated much faster or slower during creation and thus the hours cannot be 12 hours daylight and 12 hours night per day, perhaps the earth revolve much faster or slower during creation; a year may therefore be a thousand years or be a day. "And there was day and there was night" therefore suggests to me to mean "And there was earth's rotation and revolution" regardless if there was earth's inclination or not.

    Therefore using the time the sun rise or set to determine day and night is not an accurate way. How then can a Jew staying around the Artic or Antartic circle to the poles observe the Passover and other Jewish rituals? The only solution I can think of is to follow the timing in Israel.

    The same problem will faced a Muslim staying around the Artic circle, how is he to pray at sunrise and sun set?


    May God blessed the Truth.
    Here are some interesting solutions in which a Jew or a Muslim living around the Artic or Antartic Circle solved the problem of prayer times and rituals due to vast differences in the timing of sunrise and sunset. The usual and best solution is to follow the timing from the nearest area or the last place that one stays in which there is proper sunrise and sunset. The problem becomes more complex if a future Jewish or Muslim astronaut were to observe prayer times travelling in space for months and when he landed on another planet or moon!

    How a Jew prays living around the Poles:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_..._polar_regions

    http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-whe...ereisnoday.htm

    How a Muslim prays living around the Poles:
    http://en.islamtoday.net/artshow-384-3955.htm


    God Blessed.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  7. #17
    Unregistered Guest

    Interesting discussion on night time day start and loss of time.

    "And there was night and there was day" is a very subtle verse; a person staying above the Artic circle may have months without night and months without day. This is caused by earth's revolution round the sun rather than earth's rotation. 12 hours per day (daylight) and 12 hours per night is also not very accurate depending which location of the earth. That's why I always try to see it in a different perspective as that stated in the Bible....perhaps the earth was not inclined during creation which would result in equal day and night anywhere on earth, perhaps the earth rotated much faster or slower during creation and thus the hours cannot be 12 hours daylight and 12 hours night per day, perhaps the earth revolve much faster or slower during creation; a year may therefore be a thousand years or be a day. "And there was day and there was night" therefore suggests to me to mean "And there was earth's rotation and revolution" regardless if there was earth's inclination or not.

    Therefore using the time the sun rise or set to determine day and night is not an accurate way. How then can a Jew staying around the Artic or Antartic circle to the poles observe the Passover and other Jewish rituals? The only solution I can think of is to follow the timing in Israel.

    I find it very interesting you should bring this up... Look back to the book of Joshua and read where El Shaddai (Almighty One) stopped the sun from setting until His children had defeated the Ammalakites. It was the ONLY time He heeded the voice of a man and stopped the earth's rotation for about a day.. :-) So that threw us off by an entire day and threw the rotation off--bending time. Then He did it again in I think 1 or 2 Kings with Hezakiah and He made the sun dial go backwards by about 3hrs or 4hrs? We used to have an equal 30 days in our calendar during ancient times...when He bent time, you notice our rotation is no longer a perfect circle but elliptical, right? Also we can't just have 30 days a month or we'd have too many months or not enough each year.

  8. #18
    JG2 Guest

    Cool Today tonight tomorrow !

    Great topic ! Check out the NET bible.org translation for Bereshit(Gen) 1:5

    God called the light "day" and the darkness "night." There was evening, and there was morning, marking the first day.

    The word morning is derived from 'boker' ie dawn chosen rather than day 'yowm' which means the heat of day rather than beginning of light, sunrise to end any confusion. Interesting that in their own footnotes they have attempted to twist this into the opposite meaning again.

    It should be plain that 'Light' was the demarcation event not 'darkness' as the first recorded act of creation! Not that darkness wasn't created per se IDK but in the Creation Epoch it already was since in v 3 God said, Let their be Light! There is no reference to God creating darkness, he separated the Light from it though. So then in my mind that is when time (or human perception of it) must have begun. No motion[?] no time. Before Light , darkness, chaos, void, nothingness nada nil

    The 'oriental' or as I would rather emphasize so to stay on topic here, the Talmudic definition that evening is the beginning of the day gently balances upon a (and strangely enough) Greek metaphysical thought sequence and occult approach disrupting the plain meaning of the text. It tends to obfuscate it's meaning with the reverse of the implied and simple statement being made. This is quite a commonality of belief of many 'secret societies' in their doctrinal stances that hidden means revealed, or that light is really dark etc etc. because all things in Shatans world are reversed, constant state of vice verso, counterfeit substitutes for the authentic.

    Best example, " Yea, has God said..?" Yes, God has said!

    I believe that Light is the beginning of the common day as per throughout Scripture this is what is implied, and only on rare instances will you find such examples as Yom Kippur or Day of Atonement timing from evening to evening. I do not think this can be construed as the ordinary general method of rendering for the weekly Sabbath or any other day for that matter else it would not have been necessary for God to spell it out for us in that specific instance. Because it was not the ordinary methodology for reckoning time everywhere else.

    See Genesis 2:1-4

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    2,564
    The fact is; God can see in the dark. Man needs light to see and be able to work during the hours of darkness. Man cannot work in the dark, because he cannot see what he is doing. Before God created the sun to light the earth or create any of the stars in the universe there must have been darkness. In Genesis 1:2 it says; darkness was upon the face of the deep. Not only was it dark at great depth in the sea, but darkness was on the face of the sea. God works at any level and in any place and does not rely on light and God did not create light for himself before He created anything. God did not need to create light in order to see what He was doing.

    Visible light to humans is only a small part of the electromagnetic spectrum and a small range of fequencies within the spectrum. Given that God can see all parts of the spectrum, shows just how limiting visible light is the way it limits us to what we can see.and do.


    David

  10. #20
    Unregistered Guest
    Here is another thing to consider about the creation verses. The vast majority of the response take a point of view of man. Meaning, that it is MAN that is sitting on the earth looking upward (not meaning that man was on the earth during the creation). The Word tells us that YHVH hovered OVER the earth. He was not sitting ON the earth looking upward from it. He was ABOVE and all around the earth looking at it from space. We know have the ability to see what that looked like, we have ample pictures and animations of how the earth orbits the sun and revolves on it's axis, and how the moon orbits the earth. If you look at one of the various pictures/animations you will see that the earth has one side that the sun shines on and the other side is dark. The earth ALWAYS has one side in the light and one side in the dark. It is only from man's point of view and position, looking upward, that there is limitations of day and night. There is no physical line upon the earth that is a starting point for when the earth started revolving on it's axis. In other words, did YHVH draw a line upon the earth at some point, from pole to pole where the sun did not shine and it was night, and then start the earth revolving, waiting for the line to return to it's starting point again? If so, then where is that line? We have a man appointed imaginary line, but what if that is the wrong place where the light started to go into darkness is (most likely is)?

    Did YHVH wait until that "starting point" "day" line came around again before He started creating again, as some have suggested (only creating during the "day light")? If so, I He sitting at a fixed point on only ONE side of the earth, the "day" side, looking down at it, waiting for it to revolve to the starting point again so He can start creating, again? No, He is above and all around it, He is not bound by the earths rotational orbits to create upon it. He did not need the "day" light upon the earth, nor had to wait until half of it was in the light, to create upon it (it is silly to think that He had to wait until the dark side of the earth rotated into the light before He created upon it) Nor was He hindered because half of the earth was in darkness (as He created it to be).

    What about those people that live near or at the poles? Their "day", the period of "light" can be at times either almost 24 hours and then the same for the night. Was this beyond YHVH's comprehension? That the fact that there would be humans living all over the earth and that their "day" length would be different than others who were living closer to a more even amount? What about the implications of working during the daylight hours and resting the night time hours for them. Again, it is a point of view that is vary narrow and self "centered".

    YHVH is telling us how He created the universe from HIS perspective - Him looking DOWN upon us. Man of course takes his point of view, looking upward and thinks that YHVH has that same point of view. It is the same when He tells us of the order of the Tabernacle - the ark first and outward to the entrance - from HIS perspective looking outward toward us. Then we have to ENTER through the ENTRANCE and look and move TOWARD HIM. Same with the creation.

    He is telling us that this is HOW the universe works, that the earth revolves on it's axis and that the earth orbits the sun, that the moon orbits the earth and these create the seasons, times of rest for us and the planet. He is telling us that it is working as it should. I do not think you will find many people who do not call the time upon the earth that is toward the sun "day", and the dark part of time "night". Most children can tell you that and it is not a "profound" revelation. Now people are not bound by the restrictions that the darkness of night had in earlier times, and they work all hours of the day (the 24 hours it takes for their spot on the earth to return to it's "starting" point). Before, the night was a time of rest from their striving to eek out a life on this earth (the curse of Gen 3:17-19), now that "curse" is 24 hours. Was this also beyond YHVH's comprehension of what would become on the earth? No.

    Again, half of the earth is ALWAYS in the light and half of it is ALWAYS in the dark when you look at it from above it. It rotates and allows all of the earth to have time in the light and darkness for rest. Man is fixated over which part of the earth HE is on, starts the "day" and what part the "night" belongs to the "day" (the night before the day, or the night after the day), man's limited point of view looking upward. Look at a "day" from YHVH's perspective and see how silly that is. Working was done in the daylight and resting was done at night (and is for a lot of us now, but not all). Slaves had to work whenever their masters said to which included the night. Mediate upon these issues and what YHVH has for us in HIS REST (that is not bound by the earth's rotation). We need to start seeing how it is from YHVH's perspective and not our own fleshly human perspective is.

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