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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Little time for internet brings this to you unedited.

    A person who reads two or three pages of a book and discounts the rest of it because of what they pecieve to be a few mistakes might just be taking things out of context or promoting their own agenda or biased from the git-go...or whatever. This is not sound.

    So lets say we take three (or four) instances out of the context of Judges and Deuteronomy (or Genesis) and we conclude that everything else from beginning to end is invalid?

    In all instances, in all fairness, we must also do this with every other known source of information, too, right?
    What remains?
    Why Timmy, what an interesting conclusion bordering on brilliant. Of course, I acknowledge the source of your wisdom.

    So, we have to have government even though people can LOVE and get along in unity? Something is very wrong with this picture. The laws enforced through govenment do not neccesarily reflect individual understanding, view, or belief.

    A deceased friend of mine who had escaped the Soviet Republick through a student foreign exchange program, cut me short once while talking as you, saying, "no matter what form of government exists to control people, people will find a way to do whatever they truly desire whether that government becomes involved or not. You might think of the USSR as oppressive, yet this serves good pupose. It makes people to become more resourceful. I would not be the carpenter i am today were it not for the lack and limitations i once lived under...so i thought about it alot:

    There is no perfect system of government, as the very employment of it proves there really is no such thing as equality among peers.
    It is not less partisanship that will help solve this, but rather, better partisanship.
    However, it is not just society that is divided, but people ae divided within.

    If i assume evolution to be true (and i am only accountable to natural law), there is no better way to fix it than to flush it all away.
    Richard's "love theory" somehow emerges from evolution. He presents it as a simplistic model, but in reality it lacks the two parameters of the "Faith, "Hope" and "Love" trinity. It is the other two essentials of faith and hope that enable the love of Christ to manifest itself through self sacrifice for the sole benefit of another.

    The Evolution Model cares not for anything but it's own survival and there is no mechanism to produce this trinity. Love, without faith and hope seems to me as nothing more than a secular invention, patently worthless.

    Happy New Year Timmy!

    Just another believer in pursuit of Scriptural Truth.

    John

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    Richard's "love theory" somehow emerges from evolution. He presents it as a simplistic model, but in reality it lacks the two parameters of the "Faith, "Hope" and "Love" trinity. It is the other two essentials of faith and hope that enable the love of Christ to manifest itself through self sacrifice for the sole benefit of another.

    The Evolution Model cares not for anything but it's own survival and there is no mechanism to produce this trinity. Love, without faith and hope seems to me as nothing more than a secular invention, patently worthless.
    Good afternoon John,

    The theory of evolution accounts for morality with great simplicity and clarity. It begins with the most primitive of all instincts, self preservation. It matters not whether God or evolution originally gave animals the instinct to survive because evolution has been doing the work of maintaining that trait through natural selection ever since. Any animal that lacked a sufficiently strong instinct to survive would not pass on its genes. This is natural selection. It is one of the most fundamental aspects of evolution.

    Likewise, it matters not if God or evolution originally gave primates our biological basis for empathy which his found in such things as mirror neurons and hormones like oxytocin. Consider this information from the Live Science article Love Hormone Improves Mother-Child Bond:
    The hormone oxytocin is related to familial bonding in animals and is tied to love and friendship in humans. Species that have more of it tend to develop stronger bonds. Oxytocin is considered a key hormone for monogamy in the animal kingdom. One study of humans found that just sniffing a little oxytocin made people more trusting of others. Now scientists find that mothers with high levels of oxytocin during pregnancy bond better with their babies.
    We know that empathy and love have a strong biological basis. People given MDMA (the so-called "Love Drug" or "Ecstasy") often experience an expansive sense of love for everyone they meet. I had a girlfriend back in the 90s who tried it and found it very disturbing that a drug could make her feel such deep, authentic love for everyone.

    As with the instinct for self-preservation, it is evolution that selects for the traits that make us human. If a mother lacks oxytocin, she would not care as well for her child which then will have a diminished chance to survive. The origin of these traits, which can not be proven because it is beyond human knowledge, is irrelevant because it is evolution that does all the work of maintaining them. And in fact there is no serious challenge in seeing their origin in evolution too.

    Evolution explains both the root and the flower of love. The root is self-love, the flower is love for others.

    Do understand these ideas? Do you see why evolution is a fact whether or not it accounts for the origin of species?

    Note the simplicity and clarity of the theory of evolution. It requires no "faith". It is based on the most elementary concepts that we all know are true, like the instinct to survive and heritable traits.

    Now that we have established that evolution selects for and maintains the most primal instinct of self-preservation as well as the biological basis of love, we can see that it also accounts for morality which is based on two axioms (self love and reflective love) and two primitive concepts (self and love) as explained in my article The Logic of Love: A Natural Theory of Morality:

    1. Self Love: This is the axiom that a Self loves Self because Self is one by definition. A Self naturally desires its own well-being. For a Self to exist, it must be a unified integrated whole.
    2. Reflective Love: Self views Other as Self in love. Love is the unity of Self and Other. Self Love is reconciled with Reflective Love through the logic of the Golden Rule. This is the principle of moral symmetry, fairness, justice. All moral statements must be symmetric under an interchange of person A and person B.

    The two primitive concepts, Self and Love, are inseparable. It is axiomatic that Self loves Self. This is based on ontology - what it means for a self to be a whole, integrated, unified self. A self that hated itself would be a divided self and hence not a unity and not really a self at all. The most basic law of logic, the law of identity, implies self love. I explained this in my Logic of Love article, and expanded upon it quite a bit in my latest article On Integrity as the Highest Value.

    Now I'm curious about your comments on the "trinity" of faith, hope, and love. You say that love would be "nothing more than a secular invention, patently worthless" without "faith" and "hope." I really don't understand what you think you mean. Could you please state what faith and hope have to do with love? Are you saying that atheists cannot really love their children unless they are Christian? I don't see any connection at all between the concepts in that trinity, so I would be in your debt if you could explain what you meant. Perhaps I am missing something.

    Great chatting!

    Richard

    PS: It was good to hear about your fun times with the family, and your time to relax and watch the game. That's great.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
    You seem to think that we can somehow turn our selfish gene off.
    That is what I discuss at this link.
    Please have a look as you are making it sound like you might know how to take competition out of evolution.

    http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...see-how-Do-you
    We'll just quote the onset of it, and then answer what creates wonder about how far you have thought that through:
    "Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
    And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

    Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind."
    It's thought you misconstrue the full picture by taking tiny sound bytes here and there from a full bandwidth transmission, then re-construct a scenario you assume to sound as if it is face value, though in reality it is mere theory without its complete foundation IRL. (Don't feel bad, Darwin and the minions that religiously follow his pseudo-postulates do the very same thing.)

    Are you responsible for your actions or not?
    ...ok, let's put it like this:
    If from all of your past, you did not do what you previously did, would your life right now--as it is--be any different?

    Either:
    1) you cannot say (just like, "If I fall down in the city, and nobody hears or sees it, did it really happen?")

    or

    2.) You are culpable (kinda' like, "After that twinkle in your parents eyes became a squealing little brat named you fill in your name here, does that mean they are responsible for everything you ever do, have, or are becoming til the day you die?")

    Tell me if this is wrong: You blame xians and you blame God for placing the onus on humanity? You better look in the mirror and see who is willingly participating, joining right in and playing that blame game all together now with them. You have made yourself into a willing participant no matter how intended subversive denials may appear to be...and I am now playing as well?

    You are the one implying that I think we can just turn the selfishness off. At least it seems you are right about it being genetic. No, we cannot just turn that off, and it is seriously doubted any splicing is going to change this either. There is no claim here that I can take the competition out of anything...and things sure would get duller and duller without that motivation to thrive.

    Quote Originally Posted by GIA
    To your first post.

    "What the norm of mundanes never understand"
    Is that the lack of education that their masters insist upon is what causes their norm and mundaness.
    ----------------------------
    No, it is the result of accepting and believing what whatever various earthbound sources have told them, reinterpreting them according to their own perceptions, instead of attempting (and/or surrendering to) other possibilities...and more.


    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy
    "Timocracy?

    We really like that notion; but is it even a notion at all???"

    Quote Originally Posted by GIA
    Yes it is but no government will likely never bring up that topic, as then, they would have to admit to why they rule for other not so honorable reasons.
    Ok, how's this? They rule as slaves to purposes beyond their own. Some realize this and others do not, but everyone, from seemingly highest to lowest is a pawn...the entertained are entrained.

    Honor among liars?

    Anyone who will steal or subvert fact--for any agenda of (assumed) vested interest--will do whatever it takes to achieve that goal. Put more simply, anyone who will steal the truth from another is not above stealing anything else to achieve their end.
    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy
    Better a totally autonomous anarchistic collective than adhering to a pack of lies promulgated by a pack of liars claiming everything is toward the common good of...really! Ask yourself who will ultimately gain by their agenda. Check their pockets. (All that pseudo-rhetoric masks that they do not give a damn who you are unless you are making or taking their 'money'.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough
    Totally agree with that! Enforced "communism" is just a vehicle for Fascism and Dictatorships.
    Quote Originally Posted by GIA
    Tim. This clip shows quite nicely just who is getting the benefits of the present economic system.
    Note that most of the wealth is in the core of our demography and not the top. Any who are in the club at the top know that money in the pocket is a waste. If it is not growing, it is shrinking.

    The only reason that the Illuminati do not circulate all the wealth available and keep any of it stagnant is because of their insecurity that I speak of in the O P.
    Of course most of the wealth is in the hands of the many, yet because of the many (and their 'hoarding') it does not grow.

    The dumbing down of the public has effectively made it so fear is the rule of the day, and what they fear shall come. Disinformation and resultant misinformation have no small role in this.

    Quote Originally Posted by GIA
    I read your last to Richard as well and offer this well written piece that speaks to some of it.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/102547288/...13-PDF-Library
    I appreciate Christophers work, though having worked through it, it doesn't quite work like that...at least for me.


    Sincerely,

    Timmy
    Regards
    DL
    Last edited by Timmy; 01-03-2013 at 08:56 PM.
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  4. #14
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    "At least it seems you are right about it being genetic. No, we cannot just turn that off, and it is seriously doubted any splicing is going to change this either. There is no claim here that I can take the competition out of anything...and things sure would get duller and duller without that motivation to thrive."

    I agree that things would be quite boring.

    If we cannot take competition out of our lives then that means that we cannot help but do evil from the losers POV as he has lost something and if he continues to lose at competitions he will eventually die.

    Regards
    DL

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
    "At least it seems you are right about it being genetic. No, we cannot just turn that off, and it is seriously doubted any splicing is going to change this either. There is no claim here that I can take the competition out of anything...and things sure would get duller and duller without that motivation to thrive."

    I agree that things would be quite boring.

    If we cannot take competition out of our lives then that means that we cannot help but do evil from the losers POV as he has lost something and if he continues to lose at competitions he will eventually die.

    Regards
    DL
    Even as one mans god is another mans deva/devil,
    reverting the phrase LaVey most notoriously turned on it's head,
    from what illumines Timmy,
    giving credit where credit is due,
    I say, "Hail YHVH, Shemhamephorash!"

    Greetings and salutations: grace and shalom shalom through me to you and yours from my Master,Yahoshua Ha'Nazarei W'Melech Ha'Olam.
    Barechu et Adonai hamevorach: Adonai Elohinu Yimloch L'olam Vaed, Baruch atah Adonai elohaynu melech ha'olam hamotzi lechem min ha'aretz... boray pri ha’gafen! Amin Amin!



    It is understood that you are not just another thin skinned Amerikaan needing fascades of political correctness or indifference, truly only feigned unity, to uphold an illusory sense of peaceful coexistent reality. This is such a find and everything you have written on forum, whether we agree or not, is highly esteemed because of this. It's funny how many who think they are standing up for what they think they believe are silenced through your input...and yes, I can and do laugh at my selfs. You have been an inspiration in tossing what once were thought to be true beliefs into the furnace of the daylies just to see what stands.


    What difference is necessarily made to us by our equipment of ideation and believing?
    If these be powerless, they are false.

    Whatever doctrine tends to shroud the fangs of reality: leaving humanity to leisure, complacent, content, unstung--whatever that teaching is, it is pure and unadulterated deceitful treachery not only against our selfs, but against all of mankind. It is not pleasantries, but rather power that sets the mark for Truth. None of any of us are truly being honest with our True Self if what some think to be real belief causes us to rest on our laurels and simultaneously become indolent altogether. Rather, it is the reality checks with Promises goading and spurring us that truly require faith(fullness) in thought, word, and deed.

    What do you think of hell? YUou are already well aware the doctrine of hell made religion an all important matter. Getting your soul saved in not so distant past supposedly made the difference concerning empirical destiny, and the falsehoods of reliousity flourished. Yet, if that idealism wipes out the fear of potential hell, and with it all sense of infinite risk in the conduct of life, this Pied Piper of religious idealism has played you false.

    Neccesarily, truth must be transforming, marked by the conservation of force, just so we have a more concrete definition of expression as an affirmative basis towards utility in pragmatic expression.

    No religion then is a true religion that does not make us tingle, yes even to our very nerve endings, with a sense of infinite worth and hazard. Susinctly put, "If there is nothing to die for, there is no transforming motive to living. Reasoning reasonable people see that potential gain or loss stand at the forefront of selfishness, whether that be couched in terms of "upward mobility" or simply "competitiveness." Through the process of life in the living, the flesh and blood of historical contingencies cannot be sapped up in the eternal, ageless, timeless issues of any type of idealism without our own loss of "will to power" and right along with it, actual here-and-now truth flies out the window.

    What do you really think about G_d? Both orthodox and pagan nitwits think their god is sooo much like man, they have recreated Him into their own image, with feelings and interests and powers that appeal to man as man is. Granted, there is a place for anthropomorphisms, yet failure to recognize these as mere word pictures, and symbolic at that, is to think that one can actually grasp ahold of G_d and put Him in a box...or more pragmatically, a church or cathedral....oh, and of course those who frequent such settings the most must have an inside line to Ain Soph Aur, so they go to them when trouble strikes or life becomes difficult.

    What about....i'll stop ranting right here. Anyone who carries the above seminal thoughts to their conclusion can see selfishness does lead to the inane. . .even though we think we are so smart by whatever avenue we pursue our self interests.




    Concerning Hyatt and undoing yourself, the above ideations finally led to the conclusion that to pursue an undoing of self is to focus on self, and in essence is the ultimate oxymoron.

    From there, it was realized that it was not in formulating Hegelian Dialectics--thesis+antithesis=synthesis IAO--IRL--for all coagula et solve is worth--is neither the way or means towards actuating liberation. Granted, the person who can do merely a half dozen things is far more liberated than individuals chaining and confining themselves to one activity.

    Yet, is focus on transmuting our lives, whether through seeming success or failure, the appropriate means to the end?
    If i focus on myself i only get more of the same.

    Don't look to me for answers.
    In essence, i am no different than anyone else.
    I await resurrection and ascension...but now the dance of this life is to the rhythm of a Different Drummer.

    To make this speiling yada yada short, I sought paradox and for all my flaws and falleness of nature, I have not been disappointed by the Living Paradox, who never excused my inconsistencies through this nature to sin and do evil. Rather, through him, life abundant--(nose to the grindstone now more than ever before)--comes (with persecution), transcending self...not through idealistic escapisms of religion, but rather a continual life learning how to die to my (self=)life so that He does live through me...and I am far and away from perfect...though through identification into this mechon the Body and Blood of Yahoshua Ha'maschiach, I live by the faithfulness of the Son of God.


    Never bored.
    Iconoclastically and Paradoxically yours:
    He makes me shake in my boots,
    yet even moreso loving Yah.


    93,

    Barefooteded Timmy

    My wife got me a trampoline for xmas. I think it is a hint to quit breaking and rebreaking the bed from jumping on it...and maybe also now fix the crack in the plaster on the ceiling directly above my jumping spot.
    Last edited by Timmy; 01-04-2013 at 10:46 AM.
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  6. #16
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    Thanks for the kudos. I blushed.

    My view on the lie of hell and a few other side issues is well expressed by this Bishop.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

    You asked what I think of God.
    For the revealed Gods, not much. For the one I found, hard to put a word to. I had to set it aside, raise the bar of expectation and seek further. I guess I will not really have an adjective for it until I am unlucky enough to find the next rung up Jacob’s ladder.

    I do not mind talking about it though.
    The Godhead I know in a nutshell.
    I was a skeptic till the age of 39.
    I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself an esoteric ecumenist and Gnostic Christian. Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake.

    “Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”

    This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of O T God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheep where Gnostic Christians are goats.
    This is perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

    During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

    I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
    This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness.

    The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. He does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

    I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have tribal mentalities and poor morals.

    I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

    I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to discard whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar and seek further.

    My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.
    =====================

    “I am far and away from perfect”

    How can you be sure of that?
    You can only know that you are far from whatever ideal you can imagine and that is called seeking God.

    I have no argument for the rest of you post but was rather disappointed in your ending and belief in Jesus.

    No noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a so called son just to prove it's benevolence.

    Regards
    DL

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post


    It is understood that you are not just another thin skinned Amerikaan needing fascades of political correctness or indifference, truly only feigned unity, to uphold an illusory sense of peaceful coexistent reality. This is such a find and everything you have written on forum, whether we agree or not, is highly esteemed because of this. It's funny how many who think they are standing up for what they think they believe are silenced through your input...and yes, I can and do laugh at my selfs. You have been an inspiration in tossing what once were thought to be true beliefs into the furnace of the daylies just to see what stands.

    .
    Oops. You all caught me keeping this as a souvenir.
    Now I am really red faced.

    Regards
    DL

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
    Thanks for the kudos. I blushed.

    My view on the lie of hell and a few other side issues is well expressed by this Bishop.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

    You asked what I think of God.
    For the revealed Gods, not much. For the one I found, hard to put a word to. I had to set it aside, raise the bar of expectation and seek further. I guess I will not really have an adjective for it until I am unlucky enough to find the next rung up Jacob’s ladder.

    I do not mind talking about it though.
    The Godhead I know in a nutshell.
    I was a skeptic till the age of 39.
    I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself an esoteric ecumenist and Gnostic Christian. Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake.

    “Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”

    This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of O T God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheep where Gnostic Christians are goats.
    This is perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

    During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

    I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
    This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness.

    The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. He does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

    I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have tribal mentalities and poor morals.

    I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

    I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to discard whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar and seek further.

    My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.
    =====================

    “I am far and away from perfect”

    How can you be sure of that?
    You can only know that you are far from whatever ideal you can imagine and that is called seeking God.

    I have no argument for the rest of you post but was rather disappointed in your ending and belief in Jesus.

    No noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a so called son just to prove it's benevolence.

    Regards
    DL
    Thanks for being kind enough to share things often hidden behind the keyboard. It is very good we can share a bit of banter...and it was previously truly wondered what exactly you meant by Gnostic Christian.

    THough a lot of what Bishop Spong says makes sense, FTMP, I tend to disagree concerning hell; however, religions have made a monopoly through their misconceptions and deceptions of what this really entails. You mention Blake, and on those terms of his quote, I hold somewhat similar, though contrary views.

    Many fail to take the scripture at face value and instead reinterpret what is hidden in plain sight, never giving attention to details that just might altercate their views altogether. Myself, as a servant of Yeshua, and it seems like I always fall short, I need Him to pick me up again, clean me up, and tell me to "go get em' panther pardus" again and again.

    It's thought that raising the bar beyond human possibilities is just what my Great Physician orders, and so the bar raised for me is following the example of Yeshua who: did not come for the religious, but rather conveyed that the sick are the ones who need a doctor. Those who fail to recognize this need will never know Him as He is, because only those who love Him hold fast and guard their hearts in what he says. In essence, I cannot agape (aka: live and breath for another) Him enough. Sorry to hear your disappointment in my reliance on Him.

    Further, here there is no difference in the G_d of the OT and the (RE)new(ED), as He kept it all perfectly. No wonder he was chosen to become the completion of the sacrifice initiated through the obedience of Avraham Avinu. Though G_d cut him short from slaying his son, Yeshua's once and for all time sacrifice demanded by God, made it possible for whoever in Yah's will desiring to come into communion with him possible. (It's wondered how Yeshua's words, "...I give my life freely...I lay my life down and shall pick it up again..." fits into what seems implied from that perpetual rant about God murdering his own Son? How do you read/interpret Isaiah 53?)

    As to the issue of apotheosis, no I cannot say how far along I am concerning perfection. By human standards, some idolize me...so I do a disappearing act. I just do not know about that, yet until I hurdle the unchanging standards of G_d which can never be achieved in and of myself, I am far from jumping so high I ascend.

    Neither, as you, do I consider consciousness expansion, even to the point of cosmic to be God.

    It's wished there were more time to chatter right now, however it is the 51st birthday of this carcass, and I would leave many well wishers, both Promethians and not, disappointed could they not "surprise" and "gift" Timmy.

    It is hoped there is enough here presently to chew on. I shall attempt to respond more fully on the morrow.


    So it's off for a ride:
    two crocodiles astride.

    Timmy
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  9. #19
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    Isaiah 53; 10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief:

    You asked what I thought of that passage.

    Idiotic.

    How can God be pleased to put himself to grief?
    Monotheism = 1 God. A God would not hurt himself and God cannot lay down his life.

    No noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a so called son just to prove it's benevolence.

    Are you fond of human sacrifice and punishing the innocent instead of the guilty?
    Is that a good form of justice to you?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-91mSkxaXs

    You are correct that people do not know how to read scriptures. Most speak spiritually while most people read physically or from the carnal side of the brain.

    This man has a great outlook on scriptures and is worth the hearing if you are not lost to fantasy, miracles and magic.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y

    Regards
    DL

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    Why Timmy, what an interesting conclusion bordering on brilliant. Of course, I acknowledge the source of your wisdom.
    Hi John,

    I waited awhile before responding to your post wondering what should be said. You would have to arrive at knowing me better to understand what is meant in that. NTL, your comment is appreciated.

    Knowledge and wisdom and understanding ultimately come to us from God through Jesus Christ, in whom these treasures are hidden. By His spirit we both realize He is our source.

    We can still blow it conveying information unseasoned...and this is what i struggle with. Often are the times dead air or just waiting are better.

    Now, knowledge makes my hat size too small. Wisdom helps me to perceive things from a more encompassing perspective. Understanding shrinks my head again so my hat can fit again perceiving i do not know things as well as i thought, and my own rambling is questionable at best. I struggle to put into suitable words what is appropriate at any given moment.

    Even a ting of laughter helps to recognize i am only one on a planet where billions upon billions have been here and done trillions upon trillions of things before i ever poked this nose outside of my mother's womb.

    It is fitting to best know that when we operate according to The Handbook of the Universe, the Bible, our own misinformation can more and more become recognized for what it might be at best: temporarily suitable.

    Quote Originally Posted by jce
    Richard's "love theory" somehow emerges from evolution. He presents it as a simplistic model, but in reality it lacks the two parameters of the "Faith, "Hope" and "Love" trinity. It is the other two essentials of faith and hope that enable the love of Christ to manifest itself through self sacrifice for the sole benefit of another.

    The Evolution Model cares not for anything but it's own survival and there is no mechanism to produce this trinity. Love, without faith and hope seems to me as nothing more than a secular invention, patently worthless.

    Happy New Year Timmy!

    Just another believer in pursuit of Scriptural Truth.

    John
    Ho. You said a mouthful there.

    I am a believer in God and love humanity in civility.



    Though there is seldom taking sides by me, evolutionary theory more and more appears to me as just another philosophy toward moving God (revealed and known through Jesus Christ)--and as well, His/our blood bought family--completely out of the equation.

    From just my own life, there are far too many examples of a failure to recognize that there are consequences to everything i imagine and experience.

    If death is not proof enough, the most profound example to me was reading Friedrich Nietzsche's biographies, most of them delineate that from childhhood he had been shown God has revealed Himself as the God of the Bible. He claimed to lose his faith to reason when twenty years old. Eventually he proclaimed to the whole world that God is dead. After this, bit by bit, he threw away all the last vestiges he thought constricting, and did whatever he thought was best. Towards the conclusion of his pitiful existence, he suffered day and night from a body paralysis, riddled through to the core by the ravages of Syphilis. He ended up completely insane. In his demise, the one who claimed God was dead died. Having assumed the role of god, serving himself. . .a day late and more than a dollar short, he never saw how his own proclamation became self-fulfilled prophecy.

    Anybody can choose, but God only knows the resulting repetitive repercussions from the cycles we set in motion. Yaweh says, "I have declared the end since the beginning...There is no God besides me."



    John?
    There have been many who have come and left Biblewheel trying to get others to conform to their own mind set or belief system. I have read so many debates here and said nothing. You have been here longer than i, but we need to keep mindful that facts are not evidence. I don't know that i have ever really put much effort onto proving what is right and what is wrong because we all are. True evidence comes through application, and unless someone vaildates their facts and reasoning through practical experience, there remains a great disconnect.



    Evolution?

    Probability?
    One with forty thousand zeros behind it is the number Sir Fredrick Hoyle has calculated to be the possibility of that single first cell forming in slime just to begin the supposed evolutionary process.

    Relativity?
    The multiple universe theory is neither scientific nor logical. If it were actually a fact, there would not be a true meaning or reason for anything.



    Carnal people pick choose whatever they want to believe because of what they conceive to be pleasurable or painful. Those beliefs change as the drive for more sensate experiences replace what once did, but no longer satisfies. This 'post hoc ergo propter hoc' application plunges one into either destruction or desperation--through that drive to get more satisfation or failure to achieve it altogether, irrespectively.
    (To a greater or lesser extent, whether we can recognize it or not, we all do this.)



    Atheism?
    Scripture reveals "The moron has said in his heart there is no God," and in this 21st century, this fact comes clear just looking around your world a little bit. Though they may not shout it from the roof tops like Nietzsche, they live life as if everything that is created is here only for me and my benefit.

    I usually leave people alone who are defiantly in some way or another, keeping there backs turned away from God and i laugh at those shaking their fist at Him. Their time is going to come. Some will turn back to Him then and most will not.



    Christians?
    The saddest thing to me is knowing most claiming to believe in Jesus never come to realize Jesus does not believe in them.


    It is hoped you can now see even just a tiny bit more clearly that everything written from here and on this site is directly related to past experiences and searching for a fuller life on one path leading to real Truth.

    For all my chasing down rabbit trails, i never found God and i never recieved Jesus.
    Yaweh was ever watching me and Yeshua receives me.


    Contented and unpluckable,

    Timmy
    Last edited by Timmy; 01-09-2013 at 02:38 PM.

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