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  1. #1
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    Lamb used in Revelation

    What is your understandings of the uasge of LAMB in Revelation 5:6 having seven horns and seven eyes? Sould we interpert this a the Lamb of God as Jesus? Where John showing them something esle? Like that of Revelation 17:14 were the ten kings of the beast make war with the LAMB and the lamb overcomes them...Should we still hold to that Lamb is to be interperted as Jesus himself?

    What do you think...I have my opinions, but would like to hear others first.
    Beck

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post
    What is your understandings of the uasge of LAMB in Revelation 5:6 having seven horns and seven eyes? Sould we interpert this a the Lamb of God as Jesus? Where John showing them something esle? Like that of Revelation 17:14 were the ten kings of the beast make war with the LAMB and the lamb overcomes them...Should we still hold to that Lamb is to be interperted as Jesus himself?

    What do you think...I have my opinions, but would like to hear others first.

    (Rev 5:6) And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

    Can we also identify what are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the world? These seven Spirits of God are what the horns and eyes represent.


    Incidentally, the verse following: (7) And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. to my mind is telling me that the Lamb (Christ) is not sitting on the throne in Heaven and that "him" must refer to God alone, who is sitting on the throne.

    Also, the following verses reveal to us that the Lamb cannot be God and is separate: 12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. 13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.




    David
    Last edited by David M; 11-05-2012 at 02:12 AM.

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    Hey David,

    Thanks for contributing to this discussion. I would like to give some verses that have the 'seven spirits of God' within Revelation so that we might draw any connections.


    Revelation 1:4
    "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;"


    Revelation 5:6
    "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth"


    As you can see John gives this readers what the seven horns and seven eyes where as the seven Spirits of God. So then what are these seven Spirits that are symbolized as the seven horns and seven eyes of the Lamb?



    Revelation 4:5
    "And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God."

    So does John tell his readers what the seven Spirits where? Yes the seven candelsticks which are the seven churches.



    Revelation 1:20
    "The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."


    The seven Spirits are symbolized as the seven candelsticks which hold the oil [Spirit] that shines their light. So might the symbolism of the LAMB not be that of Jesus himself, but of his saints [churches]. This would be much clearer when John said that the ten kings of the Beast maded war againts the Lamb, but the Lamb overcame them. We should know that Jesus himself doesn't war with them nor overcome them, but we could see his saints. Much the same way that Jesus told Saul that he persecuted him, yet it was his saints that Saul persecuted. Much like what Jesus said in Matthew 25 of the separating the Sheep from the Goats. So if the saints can be symbolized as Sheep and taking what we have found in Revelation of the seven candelsticks we could to this conclusion that LAMB is his Saints.

    Does this seem right to you?
    Beck

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post
    What is your understandings of the uasge of LAMB in Revelation 5:6 having seven horns and seven eyes? Sould we interpert this a the Lamb of God as Jesus?
    Yes.
    The lamb recieves what Jesus recieved. The lamb shed his blood , and as a consequence he saved people from all nations and dialects.
    The 7 horns and eyes of the lamb are the Holy Spirit sent into the world.

    Imagine that, the eyes of Jesus ..,and the Holy Spirit of God originating out of that.

    And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post
    Hey David,

    Thanks for contributing to this discussion. I would like to give some verses that have the 'seven spirits of God' within Revelation so that we might draw any connections.

    Revelation 1:4
    "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;"


    Revelation 5:6
    "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth"


    As you can see John gives this readers what the seven horns and seven eyes where as the seven Spirits of God. So then what are these seven Spirits that are symbolized as the seven horns and seven eyes of the Lamb?


    Revelation 4:5
    "And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God."

    So does John tell his readers what the seven Spirits where? Yes the seven candelsticks which are the seven churches.


    Revelation 1:20
    "The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."


    The seven Spirits are symbolized as the seven candelsticks which hold the oil [Spirit] that shines their light. So might the symbolism of the LAMB not be that of Jesus himself, but of his saints [churches]. This would be much clearer when John said that the ten kings of the Beast maded war againts the Lamb, but the Lamb overcame them. We should know that Jesus himself doesn't war with them nor overcome them, but we could see his saints. Much the same way that Jesus told Saul that he persecuted him, yet it was his saints that Saul persecuted. Much like what Jesus said in Matthew 25 of the separating the Sheep from the Goats. So if the saints can be symbolized as Sheep and taking what we have found in Revelation of the seven candelsticks we could to this conclusion that LAMB is his Saints.

    Does this seem right to you?
    Hello Beck

    As you know, the number "7" represents "divine completion" and is a number that is found ubiquitously throughout scripture and it is not surprising that we can make many different associations with the number seven. I did give this subject a little bit of thought after I had asked the questions in my previous post. I came to the quick conclusion that the seven spirits might have had something to do with the seven letters that were sent to the seven churches. The phrase; "the Spirit saith" caught my attention. I started a document and for speed I will just paste it below.



    The seven Spirits

    Ephesus
    Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

    Symrna
    Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

    Pergamos
    Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

    Thyatira

    Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

    Sardis
    Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. 6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

    Philadelphia
    Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

    Laodicians
    Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

    To him that "overcometh" is the common theme. These are the primary benefits received for overcoming (the world) as taken from the letters to each church,

    1 to eat of the tree of life
    2 shall not be hurt of the second death
    3 to eat of the hidden manna, and give him a white stone
    4 power over the nations , give him the morning star
    5 shall be clothed in white raiment
    6 a pillar in the temple of my God
    7 sit with me in my throne (on earth)

    You have quoted Rev 4:5 and whilst this tells us; and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. but I am still left wondering if these 7 spirits can be identified in anyway? The text says that the spirits were sent forth (Rev 5:6) And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
    Are these the same spirits or different spirits?

    Each church had its own problems and successes. Each church we could say had its own spirit in the same way as each person has their own unique spirit which defines us and about which Jesus said while he was on the cross; [COLOR="#FF0000""]into Thy hands I commend my spirit".[/COLOR] Each church had its own unique spirit that was specific to that church. As we know, the message to each church was not always commending them, but was admonishing them.

    One further observation I make from these texts and I am going to use this in support of my argument to support my view that the "angels" of Jude 6 are human messengers in the form of priests and ministers, bishops etc. Note that John was instructed to write his letter to the angels of the churches. Now the mystery of the the 7-branch candlestick is given in Rev 1:20; The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

    Each church had its angel and John was to write to each angel. For example; Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; Is John writing to an Angel of God in Heaven? I do not think so. I think John is writing to the head Bishop (or similar title ) of each church. These were the "angels" that had to take the message to the church members individually or read to as a congregation. This word "angel" in this context is found in the latter books of the New Testament namely, Peter, Jude and now in Revelation. I think this is good supporting evidence for saying that Jude is referring to the Ministers and priests that had been appointed by Moses in the wilderness.. In fact, I think I might add this as a separate post to my thread dealing with Jude 6 .

    The question is now over to you.; what do you think?

    All the best

    David
    Last edited by David M; 11-06-2012 at 03:52 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Beck

    As you know, the number "7" represents "divine completion" and is a number that is found ubiquitously throughout scripture and it is not surprising that we can make many different associations with the number seven. I did give this subject a little bit of thought after I had asked the questions in my previous post. I came to the quick conclusion that the seven spirits might have had something to do with the seven letters that were sent to the seven churches. The phrase; "the Spirit saith" caught my attention. I started a document and for speed I will just paste it below.
    Hey David,

    Yes I concur that 7 represents completion.



    To him that "overcometh" is the common theme. These are the primary benefits received for overcoming (the world) as taken from the letters to each church,

    1 to eat of the tree of life
    2 shall not be hurt of the second death
    3 to eat of the hidden manna, and give him a white stone
    4 power over the nations , give him the morning star
    5 shall be clothed in white raiment
    6 a pillar in the temple of my God
    7 sit with me in my throne (on earth)

    You have quoted Rev 4:5 and whilst this tells us; and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. but I am still left wondering if these 7 spirits can be identified in anyway? The text says that the spirits were sent forth (Rev 5:6) And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
    Are these the same spirits or different spirits?
    Well as to the identity, I'm okay with letting scripture interpert scripture as the seven spirits are the seven lamps (Rev.4:5 to Rev.1:20). But if we are wanting a deeper meaning to indentify the seven spirits. I'm sure we should probably be on the right track when we say that the 'Spirit' symbolize the 'Oil' in the Candelstick. Which in turn is representing the churches of Asia. We also might say that 'Spirit' is what breaths life into the soul. This also could apply to the 'word' of God as being an light. So if these were toward these churches John was indentifying that each church as a message from God as a messenger to deliever that message of life.....Something along those lines of reasoning.


    Each church had its own problems and successes. Each church we could say had its own spirit in the same way as each person has their own unique spirit which defines us and about which Jesus said while he was on the cross; [COLOR="#FF0000""]into Thy hands I commend my spirit".[/COLOR] Each church had its own unique spirit that was specific to that church. As we know, the message to each church was not always commending them, but was admonishing them.

    One further observation I make from these texts and I am going to use this in support of my argument to support my view that the "angels" of Jude 6 are human messengers in the form of priests and ministers, bishops etc. Note that John was instructed to write his letter to the angels of the churches. Now the mystery of the the 7-branch candlestick is given in Rev 1:20; The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

    Each church had its angel and John was to write to each angel. For example; Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; Is John writing to an Angel of God in Heaven? I do not think so. I think John is writing to the head Bishop (or similar title ) of each church. These were the "angels" that had to take the message to the church members individually or read to as a congregation. This word "angel" in this context is found in the latter books of the New Testament namely, Peter, Jude and now in Revelation. I think this is good supporting evidence for saying that Jude is referring to the Ministers and priests that had been appointed by Moses in the wilderness.. In fact, I think I might add this as a separate post to my thread dealing with Jude 6 .

    The question is now over to you.; what do you think?

    All the best

    David
    I fully agree that angel is meant as an messenger which was given to each of the seven churches. So in your opinion John was using Lamb to symbolize whom or what?
    Last edited by Beck; 11-06-2012 at 04:32 PM.
    Beck

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by weeder View Post
    Yes.
    The lamb recieves what Jesus recieved. The lamb shed his blood , and as a consequence he saved people from all nations and dialects.
    The 7 horns and eyes of the lamb are the Holy Spirit sent into the world.

    Imagine that, the eyes of Jesus ..,and the Holy Spirit of God originating out of that.

    And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
    Hey weeder,

    Jesus also used sheep and goats in his analogies of the righteous and unrighteous. Neither was Saul persecuting Jesus literally, but through his saints. We see in Revelation 17:14 that the beast with ten kings [horns] maded war against the LAMB. If we say that Saul persecuted Jesus yet it was through his Saints can we use that understanding to understand that John was claiming that the saints of Jesus is whom the ten kings maded war with and not Jesus himself. Just as I used Matthew 25 of those that did these things unto the least of these my brethen did it unto jesus.
    Beck

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post
    Hey David,

    Well as to the identity, I'm okay with letting scripture interpert scripture as the seven spirits are the seven lamps (Rev.4:5 to Rev.1:20). But if we are wanting a deeper meaning to indentify the seven spirits. I'm sure we should probably be on the right track when we say that the 'Spirit' symbolize the 'Oil' in the Candelstick. Which in turn is representing the churches of Asia. We also might say that 'Spirit' is what breaths life into the soul. This also could apply to the 'word' of God as being an light. So if these were toward these churches John was indentifying that each church as a message from God as a messenger to deliever that message of life.....Something along those lines of reasoning.




    I fully agree that angel is meant as an messenger which was given to each of the seven churches. So in your opinion John was using Lamb to symbolize whom or what?
    Hello Beck

    A spirit is hard to define. A spirit is like the wind of which it is written (John 3:8); The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
    God is spirit that man does not understand how it works and cannot contain it. Man has a spirit that we cannot define and yet God knows our spirit and it is that spirit which is linked to the "book of life" whereby God will reunite the spirit with the body in the day of resurrection. These are wonders that are way out of our reach to understand.

    An influence can be regarded as a spirit. An influence is like an unseen force, in the same way as a spirit is unseen; hence we can say we have the spirit of love and that spirit can influence other people to love. Therefore, there are as many spirits as there are influences and so it is, I still wonder what exactly are the seven spirits referred to in Rev 5:6 as the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

    The Lamb I do associate with Jesus, who John the Baptist announced as; "the lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world". In the symbolism associated with the sacrifice of Jesus (the Lamb) whereby the blood of Jesus was shed for the remission of our sins, then the theme is continued in the book of the Revelation in which the saints have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb to make them white (i.e. spotless) This is a theme that runs throughout scripture in that God requires perfection (spotlessness), offering second best is not acceptable. Jesus was acceptable, because he was perfect (sinless). We are not sinless and we cannot be considered perfect. However, it is the sacrifice of Jesus that by his shed blood we have our sins washed away and we keep our spiritual robes white and spotless if we confess our sins before God and Jesus is making intercession for us while he is in Heaven with his Father. It is by God's grace we are saved, otherwise we, who are sinful people, have no chance of eternal life. God pronounced death on Adam and Eve for their sin, and as we know (with the exception of Jesus) (Romans 3:23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;. Therefore, as God has also declared (Ezekiel 18:4); the soul that sinneth, it shall die. There is only one hope for mankind and that hope comes through the sacrifice of the Lamb that was Jesus given for the remission of sins of the believers.

    A lamb in the normal sense we associate with a young sheep which is a small cuddly animal and offers no harm to anyone and is a weak vulnerable animal and is like its parents; dumb and that is why it is easily lead to the slaughter. This is not the complete picture that we see portrayed by the lamb of God. Jesus went to the slaughter on the cross and "opened not his mouth", but this was not an act of weakness on the part of Jesus, but tool great courage and strength of character. It is that same strength of character that will also have the power of God available to him that is represented by the Lamb in the book of Revelation.

    Those who make war with the Lamb, it must be recognized make war with God (the Lamb's father). It will not be the Lamb who destroys the people that go out to fight against him, but it will be God who kills all those that oppose him. In keeping with the command God gave to man; "thou shalt not kill", with the exception of where God ordered his chosen people to kill (as with the Canaanites and Midianites etc) we find that it is God who did most of the killing anyway. Alll the people had to do was show their obedience to follow instruction (Exodus 33:2); And I will send an angel before thee; and I will drive out the Canaanite, the Amorite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite: It will be the same for those that come against Israel/Jerusalem in the time to come (Zech 2:9); And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. We see that all killing will be done by God and God takes responsibility.

    All judgment has been given to Christ who is to judge in the day of resurrection, but we are not told that Jesus (the Lamb) will kill anyone. It is always God that is responsible for killing. It is not a paradox when Peter writes; (God) not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. for herein we see the condition whereby God will save those who repent for their sins. It is God's desire, and God is not making us conform to his will, but wants us to come to Him freely of our own will. It is God's desire that we come to Him of our own free will and those who do not come to God will suffer the long term consequences.

    The Lamb is separate from God and the Lamb is not seated on the throne that is in Heaven which is God's. The Lamb "in the midst of the throne" is not the same as sitting on the throne and having right to that throne. The Lamb's throne will be on earth when he comes to reign on earth and that is when the Lamb will come with the saints to Jerusalem and that is when the major religions of the world will go out to fight against Jesus an claim him an imposter and that is when these apostate religions that have departed from the truth will be defeated. (Rev 17:14) These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them:

    From then on, it will be the teaching that originates from Jerusalem with Jesus the Lamb sitting on his throne that will see what righteous government will do and will be the only government to succeed in bring about world peace and righteousness and ultimately restoring the kingdom of God upon the earth. Hence (Rev 5:12); Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    All the best

    David
    Last edited by David M; 11-07-2012 at 02:56 AM.

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    Heres what I would like for us to consider concerning the Lamb. Isaiah spoke of O Judah O Israel as the servant of God if he was as a Lamb to the slaughter.(Isaiah 42-53) a prefigure of Jesus as the Lamb. Could we say that John in Revelation imploys this same usage of the Saints of Israel as the lamb in Revelation 17:14. This would make it highly possible for Revelation 4:6 to be refering to the Saints.


    Isaiah 53:7
    7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

    Isaiah 49:3
    And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
    Beck

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post
    Heres what I would like for us to consider concerning the Lamb. Isaiah spoke of O Judah O Israel as the servant of God if he was as a Lamb to the slaughter.(Isaiah 42-53) a prefigure of Jesus as the Lamb. Could we say that John in Revelation imploys this same usage of the Saints of Israel as the lamb in Revelation 17:14. This would make it highly possible for Revelation 4:6 to be refering to the Saints.


    Isaiah 53:7
    7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

    Isaiah 49:3
    And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

    Hello Beck
    I agree with your thinking that the Lamb in Isaiah is the same Lamb in Revelation. Going on from chapter 4 it is the same Lamb that in chapter 5 is the only person found worthy to open the book (of life) (Rev 5:5) And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. 6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain,

    By Israel I take it you mean spiritual Israel representing the household of faith which includes the Gentiles who are "grafted in". In this respect, before the great day of the LORD in which God's day of vengeance will come upon "the world", then God is fulfilling His purpose today and fulfilling prophecy long after AD70. It should come as a warning to all those who have not committed to Christ that there is still time to be saved and be part of God's Kingdom to come. It is not message taught much these days. but the day is coming and it will come and Jesus will return like a thief in the night and will be too late to escape the time of trouble such has never been.

    It is great to share the hope that God extends to all His faithful servants.


    All the best

    David
    .

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