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  1. #1
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    For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.

    For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.

    In doing so, God would be endorsing human sacrifice and the notion that punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is good justice. He would also be condoning suicide.

    Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    Psalm 49:7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

    Substitutionary atonement is immoral according to scriptures and all other holy books that I know of. I think that the guilty should be punished and not an innocent human or even a man being ridden like a mule, ---- to use common jargon, --- by a God/Jesus. This is likely the moral reason why most Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah along with the fact that Jesus did not fulfill the other Jewish requirements set by their books and myths.

    People are supposed to martyr themselves for their God, not their God martyr himself for them.

    Do you agree that for God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqP_f...eature=related

    If you believe that substitutionary atonement is moral, please provide an argument to support your position.

    ===============================================

    There are also ample quotes in scripture that speak against God wanting any sacrifice at all and if you embrace the notion of innocent blood atonement and God setting Jesus as the ransom for sins, then please view these for the real biblical perspective.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHP-f-_F9U

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ott1...eature=related

    Regards
    DL

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
    For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.

    In doing so, God would be endorsing human sacrifice and the notion that punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is good justice. He would also be condoning suicide.

    Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    Psalm 49:7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

    Substitutionary atonement is immoral according to scriptures and all other holy books that I know of. I think that the guilty should be punished and not an innocent human or even a man being ridden like a mule, ---- to use common jargon, --- by a God/Jesus. This is likely the moral reason why most Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah along with the fact that Jesus did not fulfill the other Jewish requirements set by their books and myths.

    People are supposed to martyr themselves for their God, not their God martyr himself for them.

    Do you agree that for God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqP_f...eature=related

    If you believe that substitutionary atonement is moral, please provide an argument to support your position.

    ===============================================

    There are also ample quotes in scripture that speak against God wanting any sacrifice at all and if you embrace the notion of innocent blood atonement and God setting Jesus as the ransom for sins, then please view these for the real biblical perspective.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHP-f-_F9U

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ott1...eature=related

    Regards
    DL
    Jesus is considered as God; He was no ordinary human. Could a human performed miracles such as raising the dead and curing diseases instantly? it is God dying for humankind; this is oppose to Muslims dying for their God. Which is better and more moral, God sacrificing for humans or humans sacrificing for God?

    Jesus Died for You
    Allah wants you to die for him.

    John 15:13
    Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.


    As I have said before, death and being resurrected after 3 days is not considered as human sacrifice. What sacrifice is this if I killed a chicken to worship my ancestors and raised the chicken up alive in 3 days? It is the same as putting the chicken to sleep for 3 days. Even if someone died and was raised a few thousand years later is not considered as human sacrifice.

    Thank God for dying for our sins.
    Last edited by CWH; 11-05-2012 at 08:38 AM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Jesus is considered as God; He was no ordinary human. Could a human performed miracles such as raising the dead and curing diseases instantly? it is God dying for humankind; this is oppose to Muslims dying for their God. Which is better and more moral, God sacrificing for humans or humans sacrificing for God?

    Jesus Died for You
    Allah wants you to die for him.

    John 15:13
    Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.


    As I have said before, death and being resurrected after 3 days is not considered as human sacrifice. What sacrifice is this if I killed a chicken to worship my ancestors and raised the chicken up alive in 3 days? It is the same as putting the chicken to sleep for 3 days. Even if someone died and was raised a few thousand years later is not considered as human sacrifice.

    Thank God for dying for our sins.
    Basically what you are saying is that the sacrificial death of Jesus was meaningless, because he was raised up in three days. In trying to invalidate the human sacrificial aspect of his death, you are also invalidating its meaning. It is not considered a sacrifice if you really don't give up anything. God gave up nothing.

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Basically what you are saying is that the sacrificial death of Jesus was meaningless, because he was raised up in three days. In trying to invalidate the human sacrificial aspect of his death, you are also invalidating its meaning. It is not considered a sacrifice if you really don't give up anything. God gave up nothing.

    Rose
    Jesus death on the cross and being raised up in 3 days represents God's power over death. Death is also sin and the last one to be conquered. Thus, Jesus death on the cross and raised up in 3 days is power over human death and sin. Jesus gave up His earthly life and was rewarded with eternal life in heaven is telling us that if we believe in Him, we will likewise received eternal life where death and sin will not prevail. It has the same meaning as He gave up His life for our sins. Isn't it wonderful if death is reversible?...died and be raised again and again and again...Death where is thy sting? If you want it, believe in Jesus, Love God with all your heart soul and might and Love your neighbor as yourself.

    May God grant us eternal life.
    Last edited by CWH; 11-05-2012 at 09:59 AM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Jesus death on the cross and being raised up in 3 days represents God's power over death. Death is also sin and the last one to be conquered. Thus, Jesus death on the cross and raised up in 3 days is power over human death and sin. Jesus gave up His earthly life and was rewarded with eternal life in heaven :
    Are you suggesting that Jesus/God did not have eternal life in heaven before the sacrifice you say was not a sacrifice?

    Can God die or only the body he was using as a mule for his consciousness?
    The loss of a mule that he is ridding is not much of a loss at all as he can replace it whenever he wishes to.
    Right?

    Also. Can you provide an argument showing that it is good justice to punish the innocent instead of the guilty?

    If you were the innocent victim made to suffer instead of the guilty, show how you could or would think that that was good justice.

    Regards
    DL
    Last edited by Greatest I am; 11-05-2012 at 10:06 AM.

  6. #6
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    Are you suggesting that Jesus/God did not have eternal life in heaven before the sacrifice you say was not a sacrifice?
    I am suggesting that humans on earth cannot have eternal life unless they are in heaven. Is there any human on earth that you know who is still alive after thousands of years? Likewise with Jesus/God, when He was on earth, he did not expect to live forever unless He is in heaven.

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit.

    Can God die or only the body he was using as a mule for his consciousness?
    The loss of a mule that he is ridding is not much of a loss at all as he can replace it whenever he wishes to.
    Right?
    Can God die? of course not! Where was Jesus when He died during the 3 days? It was stated in the Bible that he went to Hades for the 3 days....so did Jesus/God really died? Do people really died?...It was said that death is just a journey to the next realm.

    Also. Can you provide an argument showing that it is good justice to punish the innocent instead of the guilty?

    If you were the innocent victim made to suffer instead of the guilty, show how you could or would think that that was good justice.
    If someone were to kill your naughty children, would you try to protect them and save them even at the expense of your life? Is this a moral and right thing to do?
    Is your risk of injury and death justified to save your naughty children? Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s children. Same with what Jesus was doing. "Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends". Remember, God the Father did not kill Jesus, the Romans and the unbelieving Jews were the ones who have Jesus killed.

    May God Bless us with eternal life.
    Last edited by CWH; 11-05-2012 at 11:10 AM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    I am suggesting that humans on earth cannot have eternal life unless they are in heaven. Is there any human on earth that you know who is still alive after thousands of years? Likewise with Jesus/God, when He was on earth, he did not expect to live forever unless He is in heaven.

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit.


    Can God die? of course not! Where was Jesus when He died during the 3 days? It was stated in the Bible that he went to Hades for the 3 days....so did Jesus/God really died? Do people really died?...It was said that death is just a journey to the next realm.


    If someone were to kill your naughty children, would you try to protect them and save them even at the expense of your life? Is this a moral and right thing to do?
    Is your risk of injury and death justified to save your naughty children? Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s children. Same with what Jesus was doing. "Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends". Remember, God the Father did not kill Jesus, the Romans and the unbelieving Jews were the ones who have Jesus killed.

    May God Bless us with eternal life.
    Thanks for not giving an argument as asked so that we could continue on topic.

    As to what you gave, you say Jesus went to hades for three days yet scriptures say he went to heaven that same day with his fellow crucified victim.

    Just another biblical contradiction.

    Regards
    DL

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
    For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.

    In doing so, God would be endorsing human sacrifice and the notion that punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is good justice.......................
    The notion that the innocent are sacrificed for the foregiveness sake of the guilty is a very apparent scriptural teaching starting way back with Abel and all the way to Jesus. Such "condonement" is done throughout the books of Lev. and Deut. to name but a few. Such thinking was likely the norm for Bronze Age patriarchal societies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
    Substitutionary atonement is immoral according to scriptures and all other holy books that I know of. I think that the guilty should be punished and not an innocent human or even a man being ridden like a mule, ---- to use common jargon, --- by a God/Jesus. This is likely the moral reason why most Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah along with the fact that Jesus did not fulfill the other Jewish requirements set by their books and myths.

    Regards
    DL
    Jesus' substitutional punishment is an interesting case. What we see and hear taught in Christianity is that Jesus' had to die so that mankind could have the hope of eternal life. But, what we see when we examine the scriptures is that it is quite possible that Jesus' motivation for sacrifice wasn't as selfless as Christianity teaches. According to the scriptures, Jesus' full obediance and subsequent sacrifice enabled him to be given power, a name above all others, and lasting sovereign lordship. So it was for the joy that was set before him, that Jesus endured the cross and despised the shame thereof knowing/believing that afterwards he would be given dominion at the right hand of God.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by throwback View Post
    The notion that the innocent are sacrificed for the foregiveness sake of the guilty is a very apparent scriptural teaching starting way back with Abel and all the way to Jesus. Such "condonement" is done throughout the books of Lev. and Deut. to name but a few. Such thinking was likely the norm for Bronze Age patriarchal societies.



    Jesus' substitutional punishment is an interesting case. What we see and hear taught in Christianity is that Jesus' had to die so that mankind could have the hope of eternal life. But, what we see when we examine the scriptures is that it is quite possible that Jesus' motivation for sacrifice wasn't as selfless as Christianity teaches. According to the scriptures, Jesus' full obediance and subsequent sacrifice enabled him to be given power, a name above all others, and lasting sovereign lordship. So it was for the joy that was set before him, that Jesus endured the cross and despised the shame thereof knowing/believing that afterwards he would be given dominion at the right hand of God.
    The Bible tends to contradict itself quite a lot. There are verses that say fathers shall not be punished for the sins of their children, nor children punished for the sins of their fathers.

    Deut.24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

    2Kings 14:6 But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

    Ezek.18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


    Then there are verses that say God will punish children for the sins of their fathers unto the third and fourth generation.

    Exo.20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

    Exo. 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

    And the worst verse of all is found in the New Testament where Jesus proclaims that his generation will be punished for all the sins of his people, beginning with the blood of Abel.

    Matt. 23:31-32 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers…35-36 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
    So, which is it?


    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by throwback View Post
    The notion that the innocent are sacrificed for the foregiveness sake of the guilty is a very apparent scriptural teaching starting way back with Abel and all the way to Jesus. Such "condonement" is done throughout the books of Lev. and Deut. to name but a few. Such thinking was likely the norm for Bronze Age patriarchal societies.



    Jesus' substitutional punishment is an interesting case. What we see and hear taught in Christianity is that Jesus' had to die so that mankind could have the hope of eternal life. But, what we see when we examine the scriptures is that it is quite possible that Jesus' motivation for sacrifice wasn't as selfless as Christianity teaches. According to the scriptures, Jesus' full obediance and subsequent sacrifice enabled him to be given power, a name above all others, and lasting sovereign lordship. So it was for the joy that was set before him, that Jesus endured the cross and despised the shame thereof knowing/believing that afterwards he would be given dominion at the right hand of God.
    You see 20/20.

    Most Christians do forget that Jesus is trying to join the ranks of the heroes of 1000 faces and is trying to get to the top of that list.

    That or they are just ignoring it in the hope that he is actually real and would rather ride him as their scapegoat into heaven instead of step[ping up and doing the work of getting there on their own two feet as scriptures tell them they must. That is the difference between sheep and goats.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6ObhG-Bdc8

    Regards
    DL

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