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  1. #1
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    Adam return to Dust

    When we say that Adam was cursed to till the ground and eat from it and also that he will return to the ground. Futurist and some Preterist attemp to read this literal in the sence that man will die and return to dust. I wonder if this is the case? I mean when I read the creation account I tend to see alot of figurative language and symbolism. I looked up DUST which is (Strong's H6083 - `aphar ) meaning DRY EARTH OR DRY LAND. I also looked up GROUND which is (Strong's H127 - 'adamah ) meaning EARTH, LAND OR TERRITORY.


    Genesis 3:17
    19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.


    Taking these words into consideration would it rather be speaking that Adam was to be put out of the Garden of Eden which would be him returning to the dust, ground, territory outside of the garden instead of man dieing and returning to dust. Noting that the land outside of the garden was dry land.

    I guess it's all in how you want to read this creation story.
    Beck

  2. #2
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    How could Adam return to a place that he had never been.?
    He originated in Eden.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by weeder View Post
    How could Adam return to a place that he had never been.?
    He originated in Eden.
    He didn't originate in Eden.

    Genesis 2:8,
    And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden from the east, and He placed there the man whom He had formed.

    You might ask: "from the east", what does that mean?

    Hebrew מִקֶּדֶם, "mikedem".

    Rashi:
    from the east: Heb. מִקֶּדֶם. In the east of Eden, He planted the garden (Midrash Konen). Now if you ask: It has already been stated (above 1:27): “And He created man, etc.!” I saw in the Baraitha of Rabbi Eliezer the son of Rabbi Jose the Galilean concerning the thirty-two principles by which the Torah is expounded, and this is one of them [method 13]: A general statement followed by a specific act, the latter constitutes a specific [clarification] of the first [general statement]. “And He created man.” This is a general statement. It left obscure whence he was created, and it left His deeds obscure [i.e., how God created man]. The text repeats and explains: “And the Lord God formed, etc.,” and He made the Garden of Eden grow for him, and He placed him in the Garden of Eden, and He caused a deep sleep to fall upon him. The listener may think that this is another story, but it is only the detailed account of the former. Likewise, in the case of the animal, Scripture repeats and writes (below verse 19): “And the Lord God formed from the ground all the beasts of the field,” in order to explain, “and He brought [them] to man” to name them, and to teach about the fowl, that they were created from the mud.
    In the east of Eden = במזרחו של עדן , "b'mizracho shel Eden".
    "Mizrach" = orient , from "zarach"= to shine, rise, glow

    When Adam was expelled from the garden it states, Genesis 2:23,
    And the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden, to till the soil, whence he had been taken
    which implies that he wasn't taken from the soil of the garden.

    Next v.24,
    And He drove the man out, and He stationed at the east of the Garden of Eden the cherubim and the blade of the revolving sword, to guard the way to the Tree of Life

    "at the east of the garden of Eden"
    Hebrew: מִקֶּדֶם לְגַן עֵדֶן , "mikedem l'gan Eden".
    Rashi:
    במזרחו של גן עדן, חוץ לגן, "b'mizracho shel gan Eden, chuts lagan" , eastward of the garden of Eden, outside the garden.
    From which I do derive that the garden lies in the west.

    "Morgenland" has this double meaning too.

    "olam haba" = the coming world.

    We orientate on it.

    The way through the temple also goes from the east unto the west. The holy of holies lying in the west.
    Jesus' way up to Jerusalem also was a way from the east tio the west,
    Mark 10:

    32 And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him,

    33 Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:

    34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    He didn't originate in Eden.

    Genesis 2:8,
    And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden from the east, and He placed there the man whom He had formed.

    You might ask: "from the east", what does that mean?

    Hebrew מִקֶּדֶם, "mikedem".

    Rashi:


    In the east of Eden = במזרחו של עדן , "b'mizracho shel Eden".
    "Mizrach" = orient , from "zarach"= to shine, rise, glow

    When Adam was expelled from the garden it states, Genesis 2:23,
    And the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden, to till the soil, whence he had been taken
    which implies that he wasn't taken from the soil of the garden.

    [/I]

    Whatever soil he was taken from......,that soil was not under any curse. So how could he return to something accursed.?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by weeder View Post
    Whatever soil he was taken from......,that soil was not under any curse. So how could he return to something accursed.?
    Or cursed from the beginning

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Or cursed from the beginning
    Im led to believe that all was Good, very good in fact.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by weeder View Post
    Im led to believe that all was Good, very good in fact.
    Genesis 3:17
    And to man He said, "Because you listened to your wife, and you ate from the tree from which I commanded you saying, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed be the ground for your sake; with toil shall you eat of it all the days of your life.

    "cursed be the ground for your sake"

    אֲרוּרָה הָאֲדָמָה בַּעֲבוּרֶךָ

    "arurah haadamah ba'avurecha"

    "ba'avur" is not causal.

    It is not: "because of your sin the earth is cursed"

    cf. Genesis 26:24,
    And the Lord appeared to him on that night and said, "I am the God of Abraham, your father. Fear not, for I am with you, and I will bless you and multiply your seed for the sake of Abraham, My servant."

    "for the sake of Abraham"= בַּעֲבוּר אַבְרָהָם , "ba'avur avraham"

    The ground being cursed being (kind of) a favor!

  8. #8
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    Here is my contribution to the discussion.

    Everything is made up of the same elements. Take away water and you have dry elements. Dust earth is an extremely complex mixture of elements and chemical compounds made up of elements. In a closed system nothing enters or escapes so we are what we return to what we have been made from, the elements of the earth including water.

    Genesis 3
    17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
    18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
    19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

    The curse on the ground is the "thorns and thistles". If you are a gardener you will know what a pain it is to deal with this type of plant that grows up amongst the plants you want to cultivate. Weeds are just plants in the wrong place. It is pain taking out the weeds before planting and while the cultivated plants grow. These is not feasible on the grand scale of growing crops in the field which is why the tares (weeds) are left to grow with the crop and get separated out when the crop is harvested.

    God will do His own "weeding out" when He gathers in the crop (those He wants to save) and as in the parable spoken by Jesus, when the tares will be separated from the wheat.


    David

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Here is my contribution to the discussion.

    Everything is made up of the same elements. Take away water and you have dry elements. Dust earth is an extremely complex mixture of elements and chemical compounds made up of elements. In a closed system nothing enters or escapes so we are what we return to what we have been made from, the elements of the earth including water.

    Genesis 3
    17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
    18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
    19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

    The curse on the ground is the "thorns and thistles". If you are a gardener you will know what a pain it is to deal with this type of plant that grows up amongst the plants you want to cultivate. Weeds are just plants in the wrong place. It is pain taking out the weeds before planting and while the cultivated plants grow. These is not feasible on the grand scale of growing crops in the field which is why the tares (weeds) are left to grow with the crop and get separated out when the crop is harvested.

    God will do His own "weeding out" when He gathers in the crop (those He wants to save) and as in the parable spoken by Jesus, when the tares will be separated from the wheat.


    David
    "The tares" = zizanion

    ζιζάνιον,n \{dziz-an'-ee-on}
    1) a kind of darnel, resembling wheat except the grains are black

    Which works hallucinating.

    Seems to have be well-known, until the middle-ages.

    There are also other names for it, that I do not remember so quick.

    John, the writer of Revelation, is suspect of having used it a little too much,

    That's why Revelation is also called "Hallucinations of John".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolium_temulentum

    The French word for darnel is ivraie (from Latin ebriacus, intoxicated), which expresses that weed's characteristic of making one feel poisoned with drunkenness, and can cause death. This characteristic is also alluded to in the scientific name (Latin temulentus = drunk).
    Last edited by sylvius; 08-12-2012 at 02:25 AM.

  10. #10
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    http://wilde-planten.nl/dolik.htm



    In Dutch it is called dolik, or bedwelmend raaigras (stunning darnel)

    German Tollkorn oder Tollhafer.

    (dol or Toll = mad)

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