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  1. #21
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    THE GREAT CITY

    The book of Revelation uses metaphoric pictorials sometimes difficult for many bible students to understand; scarlet covered whore, seven headed dragon or beast, horns, horses, demons, etc. In most cases these idioms are not difficult to understand when you compare their uses within the Old Testament. For instance, Israel was often referred to as a whore who sold herself to the nations in exchange for riches and popularity among the gentile nations. It was common to relate people’s characteristics to a specific animal; we do this today. Injecting a little humor, a woman angry at her cheating husband might refer to him as a dog or pig. When reading Revelation, if one pays attention to the language used and compare its use to that of the Old Testament, the message eventually loses its fog, and the imagery becomes clear; the bible student will begin to understand that the idioms or metaphors were used to describe the spiritual condition of the Israeli’s.

    CLUES OF REVELATION: WHO IS BABYLON THE GREAT?

    What clues were specific in identifying the great city? The first clue I believe that supports the case for a first century Israel is found in the book of Revelation:

    Revelation 18:24
    …and in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”
    (Nelson, New King James Bible (NKJV), 1982)

    John describes this city as having been responsible for the bloodshed of all the prophets, the saints, as well as all who have been slain on the earth/land. It must be noted that the noun “earth” could also be translated as “land”. Realistically, no single city could ever be powerful enough to kill prophets and saints on a global scale; this would be mass global-genocide; something quite impossible for a single city to accomplish. Furthermore, from a first century perspective, the earth was not viewed as a globe as we recognize it today; they viewed the earth as a flat circular disc, with Israel as the heart or center, and the nations around Israel as gentiles of the sea. Thus, with Isreal as the land/earth and the nations as the seas surrounding the land/earth, the identity of the great city eventually becomes clear. Is there New Testament support to help us identify the “great city” responsible for the bloodshed of prophets, saints, and all on the land? There most certainly is!

    Matthew 23:34-35
    Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and
    crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar
    (Nelson, New King James Bible (NKJV), 1982).

    Jesus testified to the Scribes, Sadducees, and to the Pharisees that they would suffer the complete culmination of Gods wrath as being responsible for all the bloodshed of the earth/land of Israel. This was due to their hypocrisy and their behavioral patterns mimicked by their forefathers who also murdered the saints and the prophets. Thus, Matthew 23 identifies with Revelation 18:24, unless of course one wishes to make an argument that God punished two “great cities” for killing the saints and the prophets. Therefore, from these two witnesses we are able to biblically identify the identity of the “Great City” as none other than the false Jews of first century Jerusalem, whom Jesus referred to as hypocrites.

    The next clue can be found in Revelation 11:

    Revelation 11:8
    …and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified
    (Nelson, New King James Bible (NKJV), 1982).

    In my initial post, I presented a strong argument supporting my thesis of ancient Jerusalem identified as the spiritual-entity of “Sodom” and “Egypt”. I compared the characteristics of both ancient cities (Sodom and Egypt) to that of first century Judaism; the collations of all three cities match to near perfection. Yet there’s more! John tells us the location of the Great city with the fragment, “where also our/their Lord was crucified”.

    Many modern eschatological teachers postulate a bizarre theory that the location of Christ’s persecution pertaining to Revelation 11:8 is emblematic of Roman Catholic mass. The problem however is that the text does not imply an ongoing crucifixion, much less a future one. The adverb “was” modifies the verb “crucified” as aorist, and thus cannot pertain to a perpetually active crucifixion; it perceptibly indicates Jesus was crucified. Furthermore, the “great city” is not located in a spiritual sense; it exists in a spiritual sense as Sodom and Egypt. The fact Jesus was crucified just outside of Jerusalem on Golgotha therefore confirms the identity of the great city, which can be none other than the city of Jerusalem.

    Thus far, we’ve seen that apostate Jerusalem fits the description of the Harlot perceptibly because of her criminal reputation, her location, and her cognitive attributes of Sodom and Egypt. The final point will be with the following verse:

    Revelation 16:19
    …now the great city was divided into three parts and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath
    (Nelson, New King James Bible (NKJV), 1982).

    The text here lists two key subject-nouns (excluding the pronouns God/His and her):

    1. great city or Babylon
    2. cities of the nations


    Does anyone not recognize the distinction between the great city, and the cities of the nations (Gentiles)? If anyone is having difficulty perceiving the distinctions made, it would certainly explain why so many teachers continue to make grave errors in their arguments. The text distinguished between the two nouns, great city and cities of the nations. The cities of the nations historically are identified as ancient Rome, aka the Roman Empire. It is therefore undeniable that the identity of the great city is a city disassociated from the nations; hence Jerusalem. Thus Jerusalem in this text is the great city metaphorically referred to as Babylon, and the nations fell as a result of Babylon being divided into three factions.

    John sees the great city being divided into three parts. Its division, for reasons we have not yet discussed, caused the cities of the nations outside of Israel to fall into chaos. One might be left wondering how chaos existing in Israel could impact other nations. Well folks, we know from history that Israel has always been the center of attention from the very first day of its birth. To this day, whenever Israel is in turmoil, the rest of the world is directly impacted in one way or another.

    When first century Jerusalem deteriorated into three internal factions (as mentioned by Josephus first century Jewish historian), Rome was forced to waste time, energy and resources in an attempt to end the Israeli civil war. Thus it seems that Israel has always been the cause of many conflicts throughout global history. Even to this day Israel continues to engage in conflict. Although I do not consider modern day Israeli’s to be biologically ancestral to ancient Israeli’s. Two millenniums of interracial marriage have contaminated their tribal birth rights. They, therefore are nothing more than foreign Israeli’s from a Biblical standpoint, but pro-Israeli from a geographical standpoint. However, the Bible doesn’t teach of an Israeli birth-right based on geographical boundaries, but by their relationship with God.

    In conclusion, the undeniable facts are clear. Jerusalem is the great city of Revelation, also reckoned as a Harlot who prostituted her betrothal from God to that of ancient Rome. Jerusalem’s criminal behavior towards the prophets, and most importantly to Jesus, as well as the Apostles sent by Jesus, sealed her fate. Her tri-division resulted in one of the most tumultuous times for both her and the nations (Roman Empire). In the end, neither would win despite Rome gaining victory over Apostate Israel. The Church would eventually achieve victory over both sides and forever be remembered as the New Jerusalem.

    Hebrews 10:9
    “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second
    (Nelson, New King James Bible (NKJV), 1982).

    Joe

    References:

    (1982). New King James Bible (NKJV). In T. Nelson, Revelation (p. ch. 8). BibleGateway.
    Nelson, T. (1982). New King James Bible. BibleGateway.

    Pike (Rev), T. (2012, March 29). Babylon The Great Is Israel. Retrieved October 26, 2012, from National
    Prayer Network: http://www.truthtellers.org/alerts/b...reatisrael.htm
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    THE GREAT CITY

    The book of Revelation uses metaphoric pictorials sometimes difficult for many bible students to understand; scarlet covered whore, seven headed dragon or beast, horns, horses, demons, etc. In most cases these idioms are not difficult to understand when you compare their uses within the Old Testament. For instance, Israel was often referred to as a whore who sold herself to the nations in exchange for riches and popularity among the gentile nations. It was common to relate people’s characteristics to a specific animal; we do this today. Injecting a little humor, a woman angry at her cheating husband might refer to him as a dog or pig. When reading Revelation, if one pays attention to the language used and compare its use to that of the Old Testament, the message eventually loses its fog, and the imagery becomes clear; the bible student will begin to understand that the idioms or metaphors were used to describe the spiritual condition of the Israeli’s.

    CLUES OF REVELATION: WHO IS BABYLON THE GREAT?

    What clues were specific in identifying the great city? The first clue I believe that supports the case for a first century Israel is found in the book of Revelation:

    Revelation 18:24
    …and in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”
    (Nelson, New King James Bible (NKJV), 1982)

    John describes this city as having been responsible for the bloodshed of all the prophets, the saints, as well as all who have been slain on the earth/land. It must be noted that the noun “earth” could also be translated as “land”. Realistically, no single city could ever be powerful enough to kill prophets and saints on a global scale; this would be mass global-genocide; something quite impossible for a single city to accomplish. Furthermore, from a first century perspective, the earth was not viewed as a globe as we recognize it today; they viewed the earth as a flat circular disc, with Israel as the heart or center, and the nations around Israel as gentiles of the sea. Thus, with Isreal as the land/earth and the nations as the seas surrounding the land/earth, the identity of the great city eventually becomes clear. Is there New Testament support to help us identify the “great city” responsible for the bloodshed of prophets, saints, and all on the land? There most certainly is!

    Matthew 23:34-35
    Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and
    crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar
    (Nelson, New King James Bible (NKJV), 1982).

    Jesus testified to the Scribes, Sadducees, and to the Pharisees that they would suffer the complete culmination of Gods wrath as being responsible for all the bloodshed of the earth/land of Israel. This was due to their hypocrisy and their behavioral patterns mimicked by their forefathers who also murdered the saints and the prophets. Thus, Matthew 23 identifies with Revelation 18:24, unless of course one wishes to make an argument that God punished two “great cities” for killing the saints and the prophets. Therefore, from these two witnesses we are able to biblically identify the identity of the “Great City” as none other than the false Jews of first century Jerusalem, whom Jesus referred to as hypocrites.

    The next clue can be found in Revelation 11:

    Revelation 11:8
    …and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified
    (Nelson, New King James Bible (NKJV), 1982).

    In my initial post, I presented a strong argument supporting my thesis of ancient Jerusalem identified as the spiritual-entity of “Sodom” and “Egypt”. I compared the characteristics of both ancient cities (Sodom and Egypt) to that of first century Judaism; the collations of all three cities match to near perfection. Yet there’s more! John tells us the location of the Great city with the fragment, “where also our/their Lord was crucified”.

    Many modern eschatological teachers postulate a bizarre theory that the location of Christ’s persecution pertaining to Revelation 11:8 is emblematic of Roman Catholic mass. The problem however is that the text does not imply an ongoing crucifixion, much less a future one. The adverb “was” modifies the verb “crucified” as aorist, and thus cannot pertain to a perpetually active crucifixion; it perceptibly indicates Jesus was crucified. Furthermore, the “great city” is not located in a spiritual sense; it exists in a spiritual sense as Sodom and Egypt. The fact Jesus was crucified just outside of Jerusalem on Golgotha therefore confirms the identity of the great city, which can be none other than the city of Jerusalem.

    Thus far, we’ve seen that apostate Jerusalem fits the description of the Harlot perceptibly because of her criminal reputation, her location, and her cognitive attributes of Sodom and Egypt. The final point will be with the following verse:

    Revelation 16:19
    …now the great city was divided into three parts and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath
    (Nelson, New King James Bible (NKJV), 1982).

    The text here lists two key subject-nouns (excluding the pronouns God/His and her):

    1. great city or Babylon
    2. cities of the nations


    Does anyone not recognize the distinction between the great city, and the cities of the nations (Gentiles)? If anyone is having difficulty perceiving the distinctions made, it would certainly explain why so many teachers continue to make grave errors in their arguments. The text distinguished between the two nouns, great city and cities of the nations. The cities of the nations historically are identified as ancient Rome, aka the Roman Empire. It is therefore undeniable that the identity of the great city is a city disassociated from the nations; hence Jerusalem. Thus Jerusalem in this text is the great city metaphorically referred to as Babylon, and the nations fell as a result of Babylon being divided into three factions.

    John sees the great city being divided into three parts. Its division, for reasons we have not yet discussed, caused the cities of the nations outside of Israel to fall into chaos. One might be left wondering how chaos existing in Israel could impact other nations. Well folks, we know from history that Israel has always been the center of attention from the very first day of its birth. To this day, whenever Israel is in turmoil, the rest of the world is directly impacted in one way or another.

    When first century Jerusalem deteriorated into three internal factions (as mentioned by Josephus first century Jewish historian), Rome was forced to waste time, energy and resources in an attempt to end the Israeli civil war. Thus it seems that Israel has always been the cause of many conflicts throughout global history. Even to this day Israel continues to engage in conflict. Although I do not consider modern day Israeli’s to be biologically ancestral to ancient Israeli’s. Two millenniums of interracial marriage have contaminated their tribal birth rights. They, therefore are nothing more than foreign Israeli’s from a Biblical standpoint, but pro-Israeli from a geographical standpoint. However, the Bible doesn’t teach of an Israeli birth-right based on geographical boundaries, but by their relationship with God.

    In conclusion, the undeniable facts are clear. Jerusalem is the great city of Revelation, also reckoned as a Harlot who prostituted her betrothal from God to that of ancient Rome. Jerusalem’s criminal behavior towards the prophets, and most importantly to Jesus, as well as the Apostles sent by Jesus, sealed her fate. Her tri-division resulted in one of the most tumultuous times for both her and the nations (Roman Empire). In the end, neither would win despite Rome gaining victory over Apostate Israel. The Church would eventually achieve victory over both sides and forever be remembered as the New Jerusalem.

    Hebrews 10:9
    “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second
    (Nelson, New King James Bible (NKJV), 1982).

    Joe

    References:

    (1982). New King James Bible (NKJV). In T. Nelson, Revelation (p. ch. 8). BibleGateway.
    Nelson, T. (1982). New King James Bible. BibleGateway.

    Pike (Rev), T. (2012, March 29). Babylon The Great Is Israel. Retrieved October 26, 2012, from National
    Prayer Network: http://www.truthtellers.org/alerts/b...reatisrael.htm
    But why he should call it Babylon while he meant Jerusalem?

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    But why he should call it Babylon while he meant Jerusalem?
    That's a very good question and I'm glad you asked. Why not simply say Rome? Or the US? Or Russia? Or China? I'll manservant your question this evening my friend. On my kindle fire right now and typing isn't easy on this thing. But while you are waiting, please consider my questions with yours; you might find the answer. Hint: Parables of Jesus, the Psalms, Isaiah, and other metaphorical and poetic scriptures. Why use such language? Also consider the audience, and their circumstances.

    God bless.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    fallen fallen within an hour sounds like new york?
    Why would anyone think of New York? Revelation was written in the first century about things that would happen "soon" for the "time [was] at hand." It has nothing to do with a 21st century city, and if it did, then maybe it was really about a 41st century city! Or a city on Mars in the year 23 million. Or pink elephants flying around Uranus. Christians speculating about the end of the world have totally destroyed any and all meaning in the Bible.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  5. #25
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    It's been a long while since I last posted on the Biblewheel. Looks like there's nobody here keeping these discussions alive. What happened to everyone?

    Anyways, hello to anyone still remaining on the Biblewheel.....and especially Rose and Richard.

    God bless.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  6. #26
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    Hello Joe

    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    It's been a long while since I last posted on the Biblewheel. Looks like there's nobody here keeping these discussions alive. What happened to everyone?

    Anyways, hello to anyone still remaining on the Biblewheel.....and especially Rose and Richard.

    God bless.

    Joe
    Yes, your absence has been noticed. Don't worry, the same old problems go unresolved, so you can pick up where you left off. You will not have noticed this in your absence, but Sylvius was banned and has now been reinstated.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    That's a very good question and I'm glad you asked. Why not simply say Rome? Or the US? Or Russia? Or China? I'll manservant your question this evening my friend. On my kindle fire right now and typing isn't easy on this thing. But while you are waiting, please consider my questions with yours; you might find the answer. Hint: Parables of Jesus, the Psalms, Isaiah, and other metaphorical and poetic scriptures. Why use such language? Also consider the audience, and their circumstances.

    God bless.

    Joe
    Why not indeed Rome? There are Bible scholars who interpret the Book of the Revelation much differently and identifies the Harlot as the apostate church that came out of Rome and is continuing to this day.

    The problem which continues is that scholars disagree when Revelation was written. Many believe it was at the end of Domitian's rulership of Rome representing one of the twelve stars (12 Emporers) of which Domitian was the eleventh. Since it is thought John wrote Revelation after AD70 and nearer AD90 the Revelation is speaking of events after the first century.

    The punishment that came on Jerusalem in AD70 regarded as an "overturning" is one of several to happen to Jerusalem. Events happening in the Middle East today are leading up to another overturning to come.

    All the best

    David

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    It's been a long while since I last posted on the Biblewheel. Looks like there's nobody here keeping these discussions alive. What happened to everyone?

    Anyways, hello to anyone still remaining on the Biblewheel.....and especially Rose and Richard.

    God bless.

    Joe
    Hey there Joe,

    What happened to everyone? Maybe you were the one keeping the conversations alive. So it's all your fault - they were waiting for you to come back.

    Nice to see ya!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Why not indeed Rome? There are Bible scholars who interpret the Book of the Revelation much differently and identifies the Harlot as the apostate church that came out of Rome and is continuing to this day.

    The problem which continues is that scholars disagree when Revelation was written. Many believe it was at the end of Domitian's rulership of Rome representing one of the twelve stars (12 Emporers) of which Domitian was the eleventh. Since it is thought John wrote Revelation after AD70 and nearer AD90 the Revelation is speaking of events after the first century.

    The punishment that came on Jerusalem in AD70 regarded as an "overturning" is one of several to happen to Jerusalem. Events happening in the Middle East today are leading up to another overturning to come.

    All the best

    David
    It's impossible to have Revelation speak of events after the first century because it starts off saying that the events would happen "soon" for the "time is at hand."

    I've never heard of the 12 stars being 12 emperors. Where did you get that idea? It seems pretty obvious that the 12 starts represent the 12 tribes. The meaning of this kind of figurative language was established in Joseph's dream:
    Genesis 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. 10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
    As for the date of Revelation - that's debatable and so cannot be used to prove anything. But if it was written after 70 AD, then Revelation is simply false.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    It's impossible to have Revelation speak of events after the first century because it starts off saying that the events would happen "soon" for the "time is at hand."

    I've never heard of the 12 stars being 12 emperors. Where did you get that idea? It seems pretty obvious that the 12 starts represent the 12 tribes. The meaning of this kind of figurative language was established in Joseph's dream:
    Genesis 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. 10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
    As for the date of Revelation - that's debatable and so cannot be used to prove anything. But if it was written after 70 AD, then Revelation is simply false.
    Hello Richard

    Until I hear Rood's interpretation of Revelation, which he saya is very easy to understand and ties Revelation in with the 'Fall Feasts', there is the additional Futurists' interpretation of Revelation which takes into account the history of the last 2,000 years. I do not have all the information to hand to quickly copy and paste, but you can easily "Google" the information. I would expect you to have this information already since you have researched the churches history.

    For now, I float the interpretation that the twelve stars are the Emporers/Caesars of Rome. Since the last 2,000 years has involved the apostate church and the continuation of the Holy Roman Empire in the guise of the Holy Roman Catholic Church, it is interesting to compare history with the Catholic church and how it fits in with Revelation. We know "all nations" will be involved in the Last Day. Gen 10:2 lists many of the names; The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras. 3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah. 4 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. 5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations. Present day Europe as part of the old names mentioned is closely tied to the old Roman Empire.

    It is interesting to see the symbols the European Union is using. On the flag we have the twelve stars. Also depicted on the coinage and some flags is the goddess Europa along with the twelve stars. Liken all what is going on to the days of Babylon and we see that Babylon in symbol has never gone away. If we are "in the world", we belong to the Babylonian system that was set up before the days of the Tower of Babel. It is interesting how we see a sudden influx of languages with no common route at the time of Babel and yet when the people were divided and split up and went their separate ways and dwelt in different lands, they took their myths and astrological signs with them which are common across many languages.

    As for the 12 Caesars; they are referred to in Wikipedia; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelve_Caesars

    All the best

    David

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Richard

    Until I hear Rood's interpretation of Revelation, which he saya is very easy to understand and ties Revelation in with the 'Fall Feasts', there is the additional Futurists' interpretation of Revelation which takes into account the history of the last 2,000 years. I do not have all the information to hand to quickly copy and paste, but you can easily "Google" the information. I would expect you to have this information already since you have researched the churches history.

    For now, I float the interpretation that the twelve stars are the Emporers/Caesars of Rome. Since the last 2,000 years has involved the apostate church and the continuation of the Holy Roman Empire in the guise of the Holy Roman Catholic Church, it is interesting to compare history with the Catholic church and how it fits in with Revelation. We know "all nations" will be involved in the Last Day. Gen 10:2 lists many of the names; The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras. 3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah. 4 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. 5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations. Present day Europe as part of the old names mentioned is closely tied to the old Roman Empire.

    It is interesting to see the symbols the European Union is using. On the flag we have the twelve stars. Also depicted on the coinage and some flags is the goddess Europa along with the twelve stars. Liken all what is going on to the days of Babylon and we see that Babylon in symbol has never gone away. If we are "in the world", we belong to the Babylonian system that was set up before the days of the Tower of Babel. It is interesting how we see a sudden influx of languages with no common route at the time of Babel and yet when the people were divided and split up and went their separate ways and dwelt in different lands, they took their myths and astrological signs with them which are common across many languages.

    As for the 12 Caesars; they are referred to in Wikipedia; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelve_Caesars

    All the best

    David
    Good morning David,

    It sounds like you are talking about the Historicist interpretation of Revelation. There are four major views:

    Preterist
    Historicist
    Futurist
    Idealist

    Steve Gregg wrote an excellent reference book comparing them called Four Views of Revelation.

    There are a number of intriguing "coincidences" that support the Historicist interpretation. The 1260 days can be interpreted as 1260 years which fits reasonably well with the duration of the rule of the Roman Catholic Church as the "Beast." This was very popular amongst mainstream Protestants as well as the Seventh Day Adventists.

    I was intrigued by the Historicist position for a few years when I was a Christian. There seemed also to be an interesting correlation between the seven churches of Revelation 3-4 and the general sequence of church history over the last 2000 years. But after much study it became quite clear to me that there were too many holes that interpretation for it to be correct.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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