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  1. #1
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    THE GREAT CITY: SODOM AND EGYPT? REVELATION 11:8

    Greetings my fellow Eschatology freaks!

    Here’s a topic that needs to be considered. I know we’ve discussed this before, but we were never able to narrow this down to specifics. So I will do my best to establish a logical flow for easier understanding.
    This morning’s discussion is on the “Great City” being spiritually reckoned as “Sodom” and “Egypt”.

    Revelation 11:8 (NKJV)

    8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified (BibleGateway, n.d.).


    We Preterists understand this passage to be in reference to ancient Jerusalem. My first point is based on the literal understanding of the phrase, “where our Lord was crucified”. Some text read, “Where their Lord was crucified”. The literal interpretation seems to infer ancient Israel, more specifically the city of Jerusalem, as the identity of the great city.

    Another point to consider is the fragment, “their dead bodies shall lie in the streets of the great city”. If we are to assume that the location is to be interpreted allegorically, then how are we to understand the phrase, “there dead bodies”? How can we apply literal dead bodies to a figurative location? It makes no sense to suggest this. Some argue that the Revelation 11:8 is in reference to the Catholic Church, and a very tiny number believes the great city to be the United States. But how then do you interpret “streets” in this case with either application? And considering the fact that Revelation was written as a message to the early church, neither the United States nor then Roman Catholic Church existed during their centuries. Thus, it would not be prudent to accept these oddities as a legitimate interpretation.

    I understand their position because verse 8 does use the phrase, “spiritually called…” But this may not be applied to the location. The text states that the great city is spiritually reckoned as Sodom and Egypt. It does not, however, state that the great city is a spiritual representation of crucifying the Lord again as this would be an odd statement considering no other places in scripture refers to a spiritual crucifixion of Jesus.
    My opinion friends is that the great city is a literal location and the people who died in this great city is also literal. But the identity of the great city is spiritually reckoned as Sodom and Egypt, and I will now prove why.

    WHY JESUS RECKONED ANCIENT JERUSALEM AS SODOM

    When the Apostles asked about the pending destruction of the temple, Jesus uses the example of Lots escape from fire in Luke 17:29-32:

    28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, and they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

    Lot was given a chance to escape, but the rest remained. In the very same way, Jesus came to set the captives free, and escape the coming wrath. Both John the Baptist and St. Peter pleaded with their kindred to repent of their wickedness in order to receive “times of refreshing” and escape this pending travesty. But they refused to their own deaths in 70AD. We know from history that the entire city of Jerusalem was destroyed by fire in 70AD. Thus, Jerusalem was referred to as “Sodom” because like Sodom, they too would be destroyed with fire and brimstone (figuratively speaking). Jesus gave ample warning to those who would listen and believe in Him. If they wanted to avoid destruction, they must then heed the signs He provided to them. Unfortunately, most of the Jews failed to listen and thus ended up being destroyed by fire just as Sodom was destroyed by fire. Therefore, Jerusalem was spiritually reckoned as Sodom because they failed to heed God’s warning, refused to repent, and were thus destroyed by fire as Sodom suffered.

    WHY JESUS RECKONED ANCIENT JERUSALEM AS EGYPT

    This one should not present a challenge by any means. Jesus, like Moses, was sent as a Prophet to lead the slaves out of Egypt. Even St. Paul states that his kindred according to the flesh were left in a state of slavery of the Old Law because they refused to believe in Jesus, and thus be set free. But let’s recall what was said to Moses:

    Deuteronomy 18:15-22

    15 “The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, 16 according to all you desired of the LORD your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.’ 17 “And the LORD said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. 18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.


    Jesus, in Matthew 24, Luke 17, and Mark 13, all state that false prophets would come and mislead even the elect. Moses predicted this more than a thousand years before Christ. God would send a prophet just like Moses who led the slaves out of Egypt, to set them free. But the rest would be fooled by a false prophet; in fact, by SEVERAL false prophets. Egypt is a picture of the Hebrews enslavement. Moses was sent to the Hebrews to set them free. In the same allegorical way, Jesus was sent to “Egypt”, (applied to Israel) in order to set them free from enslavement of the laws curse and sin. But false prophets would mislead them, most coming from the Scribes, Sadducees, and Pharisees. Jesus, when He first presented Himself, according to Luke 4 reads:

    18 “The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me,
    Because He has anointed Me
    To preach the gospel to the poor;
    He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
    To proclaim liberty to the captives
    And recovery of sight to the blind,
    To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
    19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD.”


    Jesus came to set free the captives, just as Moses was sent to set free the captives. Thus, Jerusalem (and all Israel) had become much like Egypt, and hence the reason why Jesus reckoned Jerusalem as Egypt. Like their forefathers who were led into the wilderness and died because they yearned for delicious choice meats, clothing, and riches, the first century Apostate Jews also yearned for wealth, riches, and deliciousness.

    In conclusion folks, it’s quite clear that ancient Apostate Israel was spiritually reckoned as Sodom and Egypt. The slaves to sin who refused to be set free were left under judgment of the destruction of Jerusalem by fire, just as Sodom was destroyed by fire. Jesus, like Moses, came to set them free, but they refused. Ancient Jerusalem was the “great city” of the first century that remained in slavery, and was eventually destroyed by the fires.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    In conclusion folks, it’s quite clear that ancient Apostate Israel was spiritually reckoned as Sodom and Egypt. The slaves to sin who refused to be set free were left under judgment of the destruction of Jerusalem by fire, just as Sodom was destroyed by fire. Jesus, like Moses, came to set them free, but they refused. Ancient Jerusalem was the “great city” of the first century that remained in slavery, and was eventually destroyed by the fires.

    Joe
    I thought Preterists hold that Jerusalem was destroyed as punishment for not accepting Jesus as King and Savior.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    I thought Preterists hold that Jerusalem was destroyed as punishment for not accepting Jesus as King and Savior.
    That is correct sylvius. Because the Jews refused to accept the Messiah as their Lord, and be freed from captivity, they remained marked for destruction under the judgment of Apostate Israel by the fires by 70AD. According to Josephus, more than 1.1 millions Jews were killed in the devastation, and another 225+/- Jews by 132AD during the Shimeon Bar Kaphba revolt. That would be the last time the Jews would ever search for a Messiah as by 132AD, they had abandoned all hope. Some of the Jews who remained after 132AD became known as Hellenistic Jews and eventually became so contaminated with Gentile marriages that the blood lines were cutoff and tarnished forever, and never to be found again. The 12 Tribes of Israel exist primarily as a symbolic foundation of the Church, with Jesus as the Chief Corner Stone, and the Apostles represent the gates of the North, South, East, and West; all of this is a spiritual picture of the Church's reality. Thus, when you worship Jesus in the Assembly (Church) you thus enter the Jerusalem from above.

    Joseph
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    That is correct sylvius. Because the Jews refused to accept the Messiah as their Lord, and be freed from captivity, they remained marked for destruction under the judgment of Apostate Israel by the fires by 70AD.
    So then he did not come to save people from a city that anyway had to be destroyed, like the angels that came to save Lot from Sodom, as you stated above.

    And don't Preterists also hold that it all had been prophecied by Daniel? I.e. that not only Jerusalem anyway had to be destroyed (even around the year 70) but that also Jesus anyway had to be crucified (cut off) (even around the year 30)?

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    Hey Joe,

    I think your outline is great. I would add that Isaiah also connected the return of the children of Israel as if it was a second exodus from Eygpt (Isaiah 11:15-16)

    As I see it the book of Revelation is about a spiritual battle. In these visions that the writer (John) has he beings to tell of things passed, that are and those that shall soon come to pass. In the many passages and imagery that John is revealed the imageries are between heaven and earth. He starts out with the Seven Asia churches and gives them ...all admonishments to continue to fight the good fight. He always seem to end with 'He that overcometh...' Then he goes into given his readers about four horsemen that come upon the land, each having power to conquer. Continuing John descibes those that are 'sealed' from the wrath of God that is to be poured out upon the earth.

    John gives details about Seven Trumpets each where judgments upon the earth and a cry Woe unto the inhabiters. The water was turned to bitter water that maded men sick and many men died.

    John describes a star fall from heaven to earth and to him was given the key to the bottomless pit. When he opened the pit smoke came out and the air was darken by the smoke. Then came out locusts upon the earth having power as a scorpion. These where was if they were prepared for battle (Rev.9:3-12). These were to torment men with their fire that came out of their mouths and their tails as an scorpion tail.

    John then goes into telling of Two witnesses and how that these two shall prophesy and be witnesses of the word of God. These having fire coming out of their mouth to consume, yet the beast that ascended out of the bottomless pit shall make war and kill them that their bodies lay in the street for three and half days. Until the spirit comes in and they stand on their feet and ascend up.

    John would give details about a woman and child that she hid in the wilderness and tells that a war has broken out in heaven. This war is continued when the serpent is casted down to earth out from heaven. Here John tells that water comes out of the mouth of the serpent so to carry the woman away.

    Then John tells of a beast that comes out of the sea having seven heads. It is this beast that would make war with the saints and to overcome them. The beast of the sea would have help in making this war from the beast of the land (earth). We can see that it is this beast of the sea and the false prophet that one comes riding a white horse ( reference 6:1-2) to gather his army for battle. Having a sharp sword so that to smite the nations to rule them with a rod of iron. Within this battle all are consumed yet the beast and false prophet is casted alive into a lake of fire.

    In conclusion: I find it hard to read the destruction of Jerusalem into this spiritual battle. I do believe that is the end result, but it's hard pressed to find it in these imagery. I would conclused that what John was warning the seven churches was to be aware of the spiritual warfare that was there and what was to come. To remain faithful and to be overcomers even in death.

    Those things mentioned by John as bottomless pit, smoke, locust, scorpion were imargery of these wicked teachers that came upon the land as locust to consume and deceive men from the truth. Likewise all the imagery.
    Beck

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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    So then he did not come to save people from a city that anyway had to be destroyed, like the angels that came to save Lot from Sodom, as you stated above.

    And don't Preterists also hold that it all had been prophecied by Daniel? I.e. that not only Jerusalem anyway had to be destroyed (even around the year 70) but that also Jesus anyway had to be crucified (cut off) (even around the year 30)?
    Yes, but some differ on the details.

    Daniel's prophesy with the 70 sevens is without gaps; it is completely consecutive.

    From the time the order was given to rebuild Jerusalem, to the baptism of Jesus is 69 sevens, leaving the final seven. The final seven began at His Baptism and ended 3.5 years after His crucifixion. 3.5 years after His crucifixion, the gospels were taken to the Gentiles, either when Paul shook the dust off of his feet in testament against the Jews for rejecting the gospel, or when Timothy was stoned to death by the Jews.

    The 70 weeks of Daniel were fulfilled 3.5 years after His being cut-off (30AD). I have proof that Jesus in fact was crucified in 30AD. Futurists say 33AD, but that is wrong because the feast of unleavened bread doesn't align with the Jewish Calendar in 33AD. Jesus was arrested and killed on a Wednesday 30AD. He would spend the next three days/nights in the tomb, and was resurrected either Saturday night, or Sunday morning. In the year 33AD, the feast of unleavened bread does not fit the calendar, so they are dead wrong. The reason why the RCC chose 33AD is because they assume that Jesus died on the Sabbath day, Saturday; this of course contradicts the 3 days and 3 nights theory. Truth is, Jesus died on a Wednesday on the HIGH Sabbath, which was the feast of unleavened bread, celebrated once a year. The RCC and Protestants mistakenly assumed that there is only one Sabbath, but there are many Sabbaths.

    Anyways, once the 70 sevens were completed, the only thing left to fulfill was the destruction of Daniel's people, temple, and city. The assumption by all Futurists, and some/most Preterists is that the 70 sevens has to include the destruction of Jerusalem. But the text doesn't say this. It merely states that the seventy sevens is when sin was ended, everlasting righteousness is brought in, Anoint the Most Holy (Jesus Baptism 28AD), etc. The destruction of the temple is a by-product of what transpired within, and as a result the seventy sevens. So there is no gap.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

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    Hey Joe,

    I think your outline is great. I would add that Isaiah also connected the return of the children of Israel as if it was a second exodus from Eygpt (Isaiah 11:15-16)

    As I see it the book of Revelation is about a spiritual battle. In these visions that the writer (John) has he beings to tell of things passed, that are and those that shall soon come to pass. In the many passages and imagery that John is revealed the imageries are between heaven and earth. He starts out with the Seven Asia churches and gives them ...all admonishments to continue to fight the good fight. He always seem to end with 'He that overcometh...' Then he goes into given his readers about four horsemen that come upon the land, each having power to conquer. Continuing John descibes those that are 'sealed' from the wrath of God that is to be poured out upon the earth.

    John gives details about Seven Trumpets each where judgments upon the earth and a cry Woe unto the inhabiters. The water was turned to bitter water that maded men sick and many men died.

    John describes a star fall from heaven to earth and to him was given the key to the bottomless pit. When he opened the pit smoke came out and the air was darken by the smoke. Then came out locusts upon the earth having power as a scorpion. These where was if they were prepared for battle (Rev.9:3-12). These were to torment men with their fire that came out of their mouths and their tails as an scorpion tail.

    John then goes into telling of Two witnesses and how that these two shall prophesy and be witnesses of the word of God. These having fire coming out of their mouth to consume, yet the beast that ascended out of the bottomless pit shall make war and kill them that their bodies lay in the street for three and half days. Until the spirit comes in and they stand on their feet and ascend up.

    John would give details about a woman and child that she hid in the wilderness and tells that a war has broken out in heaven. This war is continued when the serpent is casted down to earth out from heaven. Here John tells that water comes out of the mouth of the serpent so to carry the woman away.

    Then John tells of a beast that comes out of the sea having seven heads. It is this beast that would make war with the saints and to overcome them. The beast of the sea would have help in making this war from the beast of the land (earth). We can see that it is this beast of the sea and the false prophet that one comes riding a white horse ( reference 6:1-2) to gather his army for battle. Having a sharp sword so that to smite the nations to rule them with a rod of iron. Within this battle all are consumed yet the beast and false prophet is casted alive into a lake of fire.

    In conclusion: I find it hard to read the destruction of Jerusalem into this spiritual battle. I do believe that is the end result, but it's hard pressed to find it in these imagery. I would conclused that what John was warning the seven churches was to be aware of the spiritual warfare that was there and what was to come. To remain faithful and to be overcomers even in death.

    Those things mentioned by John as bottomless pit, smoke, locust, scorpion were imargery of these wicked teachers that came upon the land as locust to consume and deceive men from the truth. Likewise all the imagery.

    Beck
    Interesting prospect Beck, but I must disagree. And did you expect anything else.

    I'll make it easy for you to see how Jerusalem is the "great city" that was destroyed, and replaced by the TRUE Jerusalem from above. Every book as an opening, and a closing; most importantly a point. What point does it make for John to have all of those visions, and then suddenly end with the presentation of the New Jerusalem? Remember this phrase, "Out with the old, and in with the new". The New Jerusalem could not be delivered until the Old Jerusalem (harlot) had been put to death.

    Here's a selection for you to compare, and then tell me if you cannot see ancient Jerusalem in Revelation:

    Jeremiah 7: (Gods Judgment of Jerusalem for her sins - Babylonian Invasion)
    33 The corpses of this people will be food for the birds of the heaven and for the beasts of the earth. And no one will frighten them away. 34 Then I will cause to cease from the cities of Judah and from the streets of Jerusalem the voice of mirth and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride. For the land shall be desolate.

    Here God uses the language, "Voice of the Bride and Bridegroom being taken away...."

    Now let's see what John says in Revelation (ROMAN INVASION):

    21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore. 22 The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore. No craftsman of any craft shall be found in you anymore, and the sound of a millstone shall not be heard in you anymore. 23 The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”

    Same Prophetic style and language upon the same city.

    On a side note, there's a reason why Revelation doesn't mention ancient Jerusalem, but instead refers to it as a "great city". I believe it's because Jesus was trying to keep the Romans from understanding the prophesy. Had Jesus mentioned Jerusalem being destroyed, no doubt the Romans would have understood that the Prophesy of the Beast was about them. And we know that Christians during that era didn't need anymore heat than what they were already experiencing.

    God bless the first century Church.

    Joseph
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Yes, but some differ on the details.
    So you do admit that your thesis of the OP does not stand? ("The slaves to sin who refused to be set free were left under judgment of the destruction of Jerusalem by fire, just as Sodom was destroyed by fire. Jesus, like Moses, came to set them free, but they refused.")

    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Daniel's prophesy with the 70 sevens is without gaps; it is completely consecutive.
    But from where you start counting?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    From the time the order was given to rebuild Jerusalem
    This being a false translation.

    Hebrew: מִן-מֹצָא דָבָר, "min-motsa davar" ,from the going forth of the word

    refers to v.23,
    At the beginning of thy supplications a word went forth, and I am come to declare it;

    "a word went forth", יָצָא דָבָר, "yatsa davar"

    http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt3409.htm


    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    to the baptism of Jesus is 69 sevens, leaving the final seven. The final seven began at His Baptism and ended 3.5 years after His crucifixion. 3.5 years after His crucifixion, the gospels were taken to the Gentiles, either when Paul shook the dust off of his feet in testament against the Jews for rejecting the gospel, or when Timothy was stoned to death by the Jews.

    The 70 weeks of Daniel were fulfilled 3.5 years after His being cut-off (30AD).
    So this is highly questionable.

    And more, I do think Daniels 70 yearweeks are not meant to be historical at all, and also not interpreted as such by NT writers.

    Matthew
    18: 21-22, Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?” Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times


    The half a week being the "time, times and half a time" of Daniel 12, even until the end of the days, which is Daniel's secret.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    I'll make it easy for you to see how Jerusalem is the "great city" that was destroyed, and replaced by the TRUE Jerusalem from above. Every book as an opening, and a closing; most importantly a point. What point does it make for John to have all of those visions, and then suddenly end with the presentation of the New Jerusalem? Remember this phrase, "Out with the old, and in with the new". The New Jerusalem could not be delivered until the Old Jerusalem (harlot) had been put to death.
    I thought the Babylon of Revelation alluded to Rome.

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    So you do admit that your thesis of the OP does not stand? ("The slaves to sin who refused to be set free were left under judgment of the destruction of Jerusalem by fire, just as Sodom was destroyed by fire. Jesus, like Moses, came to set them free, but they refused.")
    I don't follow you. Could you please explain how you came to a theoretical conclusion that my thesis involving ancient Jerusalem as "Sodom" and "Egypt" does not stand? What helps in a discussion, and which prevents any topic of becoming confused and stagnant, all oppositions must be provided in a contextual sense. The quote you've provided from my post involved the judgment of Israel, more specifically, those who refused to repent matched exactly with the judgment upon Sodom, as well as the judgments cast during Moses. Moses led many to the mountain after crossing the red-sea. When they sinned, and created a calf, Moses slew the tablets of stone upon the idol and thousands of them were killed. When Moses led the rest into the wilderness, they all began to grumble because they yearned for choice meat and wanted to return to Egypt. Once again, God clew 3,000 of them (the opposite of God saving 3,000 on Pentecost). With regards to Sodom and Gomorrah, Jesus used their example of how it would be when the temple in Jerusalem would be destroyed. They would eat, drink, and act as though no calamity would come upon them (and this we know they did), and yet more than 1.1 million Israeli's were slaughtered by the Romans, and their temple was destroyed, exactly as Daniel predicted.

    But from where you start counting?
    It is not easily done because our Calendars Julian based, and the Hebrews used a lunar based Calendar. Therefore, no one can say for certain when an order was issued (what date/year). But we know enough to generalize and arrive at a ballpark figure. Besides, after more than a decade of trying to solve the date issues, I realized that it was pointless, and really not necessary. From the time the order was given to go ahead and restore Jerusalem, to the time of Christ was 69 sevens. But during the middle of the final seven, the Messiah would be cut-off. First century Christians understood this (despite what you may have been taught) and used this argument to prove to the Jews that Jesus was the Messiah. Thus, the Hellenists (after the 2nd century) began altering the Torah and removing verses pertaining to Christ from the Old Testament. This is why I reject any Jewish Torah today as it is all based on more than a 1,000 years worth of corruption. The Greek Septuagint is the most trustworthy Old Testament that we have, and the dead sea scrolls tend to agree with the Greek Septuagint more than the Masoretic Text.

    Jesus was "cut-off" in the middle of the final week, 3.5 years after His baptism. This fits perfect. There are a few early church fathers who supported and taught this.

    This being a false translation.

    Hebrew: מִן-מֹצָא דָבָר, "min-motsa davar" ,from the going forth of the word

    refers to v.23,
    At the beginning of thy supplications a word went forth, and I am come to declare it;

    "a word went forth", יָצָא דָבָר, "yatsa davar"

    http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt3409.htm

    You're not mincing words are you? Anyone who tries to build a doctrine by dicecting phrases or words are in danger of going beyond what has been written. Granted there are errors that sometimes may require clarification. But in the case of Daniel's prophesy, how could you argue against a fulfilled position? There is no temple left to destroy, and there hasn't been for 2,000 years. There is no "Daniel's people" left to be destroyed, as they have not existed for more than 2,000 years. Thus, your case would require more than mistranslations of text.

    Daniel is told that his people, temple, and city would have seventy sevens before the coming of the Messiah. Is the temple there? Nope. Is his city there? Nope. Are his descendants here today? Nope. So anyone who advocates a yet-to-be-fulfilled position of Daniel's Prophesy are chasing after wind.

    So this is highly questionable.

    And more, I do think Daniels 70 yearweeks are not meant to be historical at all, and also not interpreted as such by NT writers.
    New Testament writers? Do please specify.

    Matthew
    18: 21-22, Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?” Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times


    The half a week being the "time, times and half a time" of Daniel 12, even until the end of the days, which is Daniel's secret.
    [/QUOTE]

    I think you misquoted the text. It's not "seventy seven" but "seventy times seven". This is confirmed with the Greek Septuagint. This of course equated to 490 years. Jesus was alluding to Daniel's Prophesy. Peter, when asking how many times he should forgive his brethren (fellow Jews), He was referencing Daniel's prophesy because after the completion of the seventy sevens (490 years), it would be a bit late. And we know when the Apostles dispersed to the Gentiles to begin preaching the Gospels, those that remained in Jerusalem continued on their stiff-necked rejection of Jesus. In fact, the false Jews worked even harder to chase down the Apostles and have them arrested by Roman authority. This is recorded with Paul's account in the book of Acts.

    Now this thread has been detracted from its intended topic, being Jerusalem reckoned as Sodom and Egypt. I've provided you in the OP the evidence from scripture supporting my thesis. The difficult you have is disproving why Jerusalem cannot be reckoned as "Sodom and Egypt".

    Lets go from there. If you want to debate the seventy weeks, we can start another thread. But I do warn you my friend; I'm pretty well verses with Daniel's Prophesy.

    Joseph
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

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