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  1. #1
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    Origins of Morality and Sin

    Once consciousness arose in animals the next step was self-consciousness, the state of being aware of oneself...from the point that humans became aware they naturally connected the idea of right and wrong using themselves as the model for morality.

    When one is aware of disliking something done to their own selves, one then projects that dislike onto others, hence the birth of the "Golden Rule" or "Morality". Self-consciousness is the state from which morality was born, that is what sets us apart from all the other animals...the ability to project our own feelings and desires onto another being and know that it is either right or wrong because of our own awareness.

    Self-awareness also gave birth to the idea of purpose and beginnings. Naturally when one is aware of their own existence, the question emerges...where did I come from, and what is my purpose? Thus, the idea of a creator who formed us for a purpose naturally arose, since our origins are hidden from our understanding.

    Sin, like morality is a concept, not an “objective fact”, which emerged out of the consciousness of man. Without the self-awareness of the human animal “sin”, like morality does not exist; it is not a law or principle upon which life is built. The concept of sin arose solely from the state of self-awareness of our own selves, and the idea that somehow the desires of our humanity are innately bad.


    If morality exists as a “truth” in the universe in the same way as say the Pythagorean Theorem does then why has mans concept of what is moral continued to change with time, and consciousness level? Take for instance the biblical passage in Numbers 31, where Moses orders the Hebrew soldiers by command from God to kill all the male children and women who are not virgins, and then proceeds to give the remaining 32,000 virgins girls to the Hebrew soldiers to keep for themselves…by today’s moral standards killing women and children and taking people as slaves is totally unacceptable and immoral, yet the Hebrew’s in biblical times seemed to think God allowed such behavior.
    Num.31:1-2 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people. 18-19) Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

    There are countless other examples in the Bible where acts that are considered immoral by today’s standards are commanded and condoned by its God. Morality appears to come solely from the emergence of self-awareness and the ability to reason, there is no need of a “Divine Source” as the author of morality.

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    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

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  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
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    Origins of Morality and Sin very interesting topic.

    If morality exists as a “truth” in the universe in the same way as say the Pythagorean Theorem does then why has mans concept of what is moral continued to change with time, and consciousness level? Take for instance the biblical passage in Numbers 31, where Moses orders the Hebrew soldiers by command from God to kill all the male children and women who are not virgins, and then proceeds to give the remaining 32,000 virgins girls to the Hebrew soldiers to keep for themselves…by today’s moral standards killing women and children and taking people as slaves is totally unacceptable and immoral, yet the Hebrew’s in biblical times seemed to think God allowed such behavior.

    Num.31:1-2 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people. 18-19) Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

    There are countless other examples in the Bible where acts that are considered immoral by today’s standards are commanded and condoned by its God. Morality appears to come solely from the emergence of self-awareness and the ability to reason, there is no need of a “Divine Source” as the author of morality.
    Throughout history, there is a common theme of war... and to this very day, the battle continues. One of the commandments "Thou Shalt Not Kill"...
    but in Num 31:1-2, describes what is massacre in a most brutal way. It is written that the LORD spake to Moses, saying... Kill the Midianites.
    Seem like a contradiction to me. If a leader says the LORD commands war, Israel blindly follows the leader without question. This typical of any military and they justify the war as God's will. The issue of morality is mute. 32,000 virgin girls taken as human slaves.

    There is a saying "What goes around, comes around"... and Israel endures a holocaust in WWII. Is there a lesson here? You would think so. Now fast forward to 2012, and there is Israel leader Netanyahu before the U.N. making a case for war with Iran. History repeating itself.

    The question I have is, How did this negative bit of scripture make into the bible? Is this something we want to teach our children? This is immoral behavior.
    The scripture seems divisive perhaps as persuasion of military might of Israel.

    During the 11th, 12th and 13th centuries, history of the Crusades religious warfare between Christian versus Muslims. For approx 300 years Christians, Jews and Muslims basically slaughtering each other... Here we are 1000 years later with the same threat looming and we still cling to Religious ideology waiting for fulfillment of prophecy, second coming, rapture or the end of the world, whichever comes first. During the past 1000 years, what have Christians, Jews and Muslims done to reconcile their differences? Are pedophilia, slavery, war morally correct? When it comes to religious text... ancient history, and I do not believe we should subscribe to gloom and doom prophecy for our future. Christians, Jews and Muslims need reform. People generally know the difference between right and wrong, we have morals, we know the golden rule, compassion and tolerance, respect the earth. Religion has amassed wealth, for what reason? We have homeless and hungry.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stuber View Post
    There is a saying "What goes around, comes around"... and Israel endures a holocaust in WWII. Is there a lesson here? You would think so. Now fast forward to 2012, and there is Israel leader Netanyahu before the U.N. making a case for war with Iran. History repeating itself.
    I've had a similar thought. It makes a little too much sense ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stuber View Post
    The question I have is, How did this negative bit of scripture make into the bible? Is this something we want to teach our children? This is immoral behavior.
    The scripture seems divisive perhaps as persuasion of military might of Israel.
    Unfortunately, it's not just a "negative bit" - it's more like a "negative megabit." Such things are found throughout the Bible. The whole story of the exodus and the conquest of the promised land is filled with unjustifiable genocidal violence. And the whole story concludes in Revelation with God himself throwing countless humans into the lake of fire to be burned forever, screaming, crying, agonizing as the "smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night" (Revelation 14:11). Yuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stuber View Post
    During the 11th, 12th and 13th centuries, history of the Crusades religious warfare between Christian versus Muslims. For approx 300 years Christians, Jews and Muslims basically slaughtering each other... Here we are 1000 years later with the same threat looming and we still cling to Religious ideology waiting for fulfillment of prophecy, second coming, rapture or the end of the world, whichever comes first. During the past 1000 years, what have Christians, Jews and Muslims done to reconcile their differences? Are pedophilia, slavery, war morally correct? When it comes to religious text... ancient history, and I do not believe we should subscribe to gloom and doom prophecy for our future. Christians, Jews and Muslims need reform. People generally know the difference between right and wrong, we have morals, we know the golden rule, compassion and tolerance, respect the earth. Religion has amassed wealth, for what reason? We have homeless and hungry.
    Great points!

    The apocalyptic end of the world fetish of modern fundamentalists is a fundamental psychological pathology, in my estimation. It ties in with the perverse "us vs. them" attitude taught in most forms of Christianity. This sick, twisted, perverse view of the world reaches its apotheosis in the idea that saints in heaven will be Rejoicing at the Sight of People Suffering in Hell.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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