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  1. #11
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    Just adding my pennyworth.

    The Bible gives us the definition of faith. (Heb 11:1) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    We hope for things in the future based on things of the past which were true.

    My hope is in the resurrection that is future. My faith is based on the assurance from God of something which happened in the past. (Acts 17:31) whereof he (God) hath given assurance unto all men, in that he (God) hath raised him (Jesus) from the dead.

    There will always be people who mock this fact, because they refuse to accept the reported evidence of eye-witnesses at the time.

    Not even Jesus by his miracles could convince those who did not want to believe; (Luke 16:31) If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Not even the resurrection of Lazarus and the reports that followed, would make everyone believe. It is not surprising the resurrection of Jesus is not believed by the doubters.

    Jesus knew exactly what would happen. It was revealed to Jesus in the same way it is revealed to us by reading in the ancient scriptures which form the Old Testament. Jesus kept no secrets;(John 15:16); for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

    All that had taken place surrounding the death and resurrection of Jesus was know to the authorities. This is why Paul said to King Agrippa; (Acts 26:26) For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.

    For the most part, the teaching, which Jesus received, came from the preserved scriptures. Jesus read and understood those scriptures. Jesus recognized the prophecies relating to him. Almost on every page of the OT (the scriptures) there is something to identify Jesus. Jesus is; The Prophet, the Messiah, the Christ, the Son of God, which was to come.

    Hence, there is enough evidence to persuade me of the unshakable belief, which the apostle Paul had also when he wrote.
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    This is not up for debate.
    Last edited by David M; 11-11-2013 at 05:56 AM.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    Hi Richard:
    I hope you will respond here too! You Said, " It is foolish to appeal just to reason, just to intuition, just to senses, or "just to" anything less than your full being. I just don't see what God, the Bible, or Jesus has to do with anything. They are intellectual constructs folks vivify with their daily experience and then project "out there" thinking it is all real. I don't see any reality in any of it. "

    The idea that there is no future life or eternal life simply because there is no tangible proof at the moment which fits the scientific model - does not mean that it is not an option and a possibility. Hence the need for GOD. The reason faith exists is for the function of taking someone at their word. The verification process is not presently availablein the physical sense. It's like trying to tell some kid that George Washington was the first president of the USA. All the "evidence" in the world will not really make a believer out of the kid without the use of some form of faith. You have to accept the written word about the life of George Washington. No one alive today ever saw him. And yet you believe the evidence left behind about him.

    The same holds true for GOD. The evidence left behind must be accepted and then the living experience will enter the life when the seeker is ready. "Without faith it is impossible to please God." Hebrews 11:6


    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Good morning Mystykal,

    I do not deny the possibility of eternal life. But there is a big difference between possible and probable. And besides, there is a wide variety of possibilities - Hindu reincarnation, Christian resurrection, mystical union with God, etc. So we have a wide range of possibilities with no way to determine which, if any, is true.

    You say that eternal life necessitates some variety of a GOD. I don't see the connection. Spiritual life could be just as natural as physical life.

    Your main point is epistemological. You are saying that knowledge is a form a faith. There is some truth in that since one of the popular epistemological definitions of truth is "justified true belief." Unfortunately, you are saying believers must FIRST take a leap of faith that their religion is true (be it Islam, Scientology, Mormonism, your version of Christianity, or whatever), and only THEN will they receive subjective "evidence" that justifies their beliefs in their own eyes but gives them NOTHING to justify their beliefs to anyone else. That's the recipe for delusion. Literally. It is literally the recipe for delusion. By that methodology, the believer has no way to know if they are totally deluded or if they have been brainwashed to believe cult teachings, or if they have gone psychotic. Sure, it's also possible that they have discovered the truth, but the odd thing is that they have no way to actually know if they really have or not! I don't see any reason to put myself in such a position.

    There also seems to be a big problem with your central claim that everyone should "take God at his word" in the the Bible because you don't seem to do that yourself. On the one hand, you seem to think that the OT is vastly superior to the NT as the "inspired Word of God" while on the other hand you sometimes speak of the NT as if it too were inspired and at other times as if it were not. I've found your position to be altogether confusing and inconsistent. I really have no idea what you believe about the Bible, so neither can I have any idea what you mean when you say that I should "take God at his word."

    You say that the "verification process is not presently availablein the physical sense." Very true! And its also true that it is not available in an intellectual sense or any other sense that I know of. So here is the question that you must answer. It is the central question that I have been asking you for many months: How does one discern between truth and error in their religion if they simply accept their holy book on faith? How does one discern between Islam, Mormonism, Scientology, and the ten thousand varieties of Christianity if there is no "verification process" of anything anyone says?

    And why would you take anyone's word on mere faith? Especially the word of a religious teacher, since we know that religious teachers are at the absolute BOTTOM of integrity and trustworthiness? The truth is that dogmatic religions - religions that must be accepted on faith - tend to corrupt the minds and morals of believers. Therefore, religion is the LAST place anyone should put their faith.

    Great chatting!

    Richards
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Just adding my pennyworth.

    The Bible gives us the definition of faith. (Heb 11:1) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    We hope for things in the future based on things of the past which were true.
    Good morning David,

    That is, of course, the verse everyone appeals to when looking for a Biblical definition of faith. But is it even meaningful? It appears to be self-contradictory since things that are not seen are not evidence, by definition. Websters defines evidence as a "visible or outward sign that furnishes proof". That's exactly the opposite of faith. Thus, that verse is self-contradictory and hence meaningless.

    And of course we've been over this same ground many times. You have never successfully substantiated your claim that the "things of the past" were true. On the contrary, it seems quite obvious to me that they were not true. For example, there was no Adam and Eve, no flood of Noah, no Exodus of some 2 million people wandering the desert for 40 years while leaving no trace of any kind. Those things are the stuff of myth and legend. There is no evidence that any of them happened, and much evidence that they did not.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    My hope is in the resurrection that is future. My faith is based on the assurance from God of something which happened in the past. (Acts 17:31) whereof he (God) hath given assurance unto all men, in that he (God) hath raised him (Jesus) from the dead.

    There will always be people who mock this fact, because they refuse to accept the reported evidence of eye-witnesses at the time.
    It is not a matter of "mocking" - the question is one of truth. Is there any reason anyone should believe that Jesus was resurrected? I don't think so, and one of the most striking reasons is that the Bible is totally incoherent on this point. It is impossible to give a coherent narrative of what supposedly happened in the passion week. No Christian has ever successfully answered Dan Barker's Resurrection Challenge. Click the link to see the thread where we have been discussing it and you will see my words are true. So if no Christian can give a coherent account of what supposedly happened, why should anyone believe that it really happened at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Not even Jesus by his miracles could convince those who did not want to believe; (Luke 16:31) If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Not even the resurrection of Lazarus and the reports that followed, would make everyone believe. It is not surprising the resurrection of Jesus is not believed by the doubters.
    That does not apply to our discussion because we have no evidence that anyone actually rose from the dead. All we have is 2000 year old hearsay that does not cohere with itself. You can't blame me for stating the obvious fact that no one should find such "evidence" to be convincing.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    For the most part, the teaching, which Jesus received, came from the preserved scriptures. Jesus read and understood those scriptures. Jesus recognized the prophecies relating to him. Almost on every page of the OT (the scriptures) there is something to identify Jesus. Jesus is; The Prophet, the Messiah, the Christ, the Son of God, which was to come.
    That's eisogesis (reading into Scripture things that are not there). You won't find Jesus if you do real exegesis of the text. The NT writers ripped verses out of context and applied them to Jesus in an entirely unjustifiable manner. The most obvious case is Isaiah 7:14. First, it doesn't even use the Hebrew word for "virgin" (b'tulah) and second, it had absolutely nothing to do with any "messiah" that would come some 700 years later. The NT is full of errors like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hence, there is enough evidence to persuade me of the unshakable belief, which the apostle Paul had also when he wrote.
    Actually, you have shown no evidence at all. You have nothing but "faith" which you confuse with "evidence". Answer me this - suppose you were a Muslim believing the Quran "by faith". How would you tell the difference between truth and falsehood?

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  4. #14
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    [w/o edit]

    Aloha Big Kahuna

    Waka waka eh eh, so a big apology for not answering back about everything...yet.
    (Which reminds me being negligent owing Shoshanah further explanation on the proof of evolution thread.)

    There is so much here to cover considering how you broke everything down, and because of this, it will not be so simple to answer you without lengthy responses over many of your points of concern.

    I will attempt as time affords, to give answers as best can be done. This misal is only response in answer to the first point. The thing is, this is not hardly half of what could be said concerning these issues.
    (It is hoped this is not yet another thread that will fall by the wayside for Timmy's busyness, only to be incompletely answered and forgotten for things in front of this face.)




    Skepticism concerning "the chosen in the way" reminds me of the "parable" Y'shua told of a specific rich man and Eleazer, where this rich man wanting to warn five brothers, finds out it doesn't work like that:
    “...and being in torment in Hades, he looked up and saw Avraham a long way off, with Eliazar at his side. ‘Avi Avraham! ’ he called out, ‘Have mercy on me and send Eliazar to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this flame! ’
    “ ‘Son,’ Avraham said, ‘remember that during your life you received your good things, just as Eliazar received bad things, but now he is comforted here, while you are in agony. Besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that those who want to pass over from here to you cannot; neither can those from there cross over to us. ’

    “ ‘Avi,’ he said, ‘then I beg you to send him to my father’s house — because I have five brothers — to warn them, so they won’t also come to this place of torment. ’

    “But Avraham said, ‘They have Moshe and the Nevi'im; they should listen to them. ’

    “ ‘No, Avraham Avi,’ he said. ‘But if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent. ’

    “But he told him, ‘If they don’t listen to Moshe and the Nevi'im, they shall not be convinced if someone rises from the dead. ’


    I could waste efforts trying to convince people with what seems spectacular...i could tell others that on The Best of Authority they could be shown how what they proclaim to be Biblical is completely off base and it does no good.

    So, usually such things remain unmentioned as our experiences have little bearing at all as a basis for truth. Instead, attempt is made to explain things clearly as can be done by me, and whoever reads can take it from there, or as is more often than not the case, forget what is shown.

    These are things that must be individually lived and learned or they mean nothing to any "outsider attempting to peer in. The skeptic such as myself, has even more to contend with, often doubting the reality of whatever preternormal experience...looking perpetually for reasonable explanations based upon the recognized natural laws. When i began studying quantum mechanics, i came to the point of realizing we can't really explain away everything and there is often more afoot than meets the eyes.

    Attempting to relate these things is like trying to explain to my dog how to turn a doorknob and open the door himself to come or go by himself instead of coming to me when he wishes to proceed in or out of our home.

    (...and this is one reason i am often indifferent about editing, spell checking, or all the rambling speech. Trying to make the text interesting enough to those i care about so that the words can be more than a passing reflection amongst many reflections passing through this medium mirroring our thoughts...and i also expect about as much success in convincing anyone with these words as i do if i were to flap my arms and fly, and yet, if just one thing out from thousands of words sticks in another's craw, maybe i have done my part, maybe they can come know Y'shua as he is, then following His way, His truth, and His life, experience the relationship with Eloheinu they to can live in.



    Quote Originally Posted by Þ.Œ.
    What same elements do you mean?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Richard
    Believing, without evidence, that what you imagine is real.
    It would be my lie to tell you otherwise than your above definition, however what you are thinking in terms of it being imaginary needs to be unpackaged.

    Before this type of believing was a normal part of doing--(yet not without basis in physical proof for myself). Even when others consider realities i see as imagined, it has never been a matter of just believing without evidence. If you choose to call what i see imaginings, then this is what it shall be for you, and yet for me, there is no blind leap of faith. Rather, this is a foundational assurance in Y'shua Ha'Mashiach estabtlished, so that His love is not mistaken for what flows out from this: True knowing faith and everything coming from out of this.

    Sadly, most people lump many similarities together as one thing, together in a conglomerate of confused ideas and notions without clarity. So they can be noted calling: desire, fear, faith, hope, delusion, anticipation, belief, imagination, passion, and so on by the wrong identifying label. Those who do not distinguish these differences also, more often than not, are usually oblivious to what is lacking in a balance neccesary to move the imagination and emotive faculties to effect.




    I was struck dead by a Mercury Lynx auto traveling somewhere between 30-40 mph. Pulled through the wheel well of that economy car. I watched from a distance this body lay on the pavement twitching and bleeding out until biological activity ceased completely and the carcass went cold.

    After the doctors had already tagged and covered this flesh giving up on any more attempts to.revive it, my consciousness was carried back against my intent, and forced to return into this--now formerly--mangled and cold body. (Were it not for shreiking from pain, this body would have prolly already have been "put on ice." i had been forced to return being already written off as dead and lifeless 40+ min<--[that being only recorded care time, not before or after]--under professional medical practitioners attempts to bring some spark of life back to such a mauled body.

    Later i was visited for a matter of seconds by a "ministering spirit" to quicky show me my wrong, my way to healing, and a promise of Y'shua continuing with me. It was assurance, but i never moreso considered odds to be insurmountable.
    (Which reminds me: ???ever seen colored but completely pristine engulfing light, as in no variation of ambience and no shadow can be found in the room???
    ...and yes, the wheel Ezekiel saw? I do mean a literal ox head.)
    This experience in itself made all the intensive care machinery to go on the fritz, and one nurse the whole time i was hospitalized kept on asking what was that bright light comng out from my room that afternoon when she stared it from the nurses station.




    The attending specialists, considering my injuries and meeting together determined this body would be recoving in the hospital for at least 18 months, never to walk again and mentally inept...with body functions unpredictably determining unexpected variations regulating bodily functions.

    Though fully insured with sufficient cash to receive the best medical attention money could buy, i signed release papers after only a ten day stay in the hospital, was wheelchaired down to the main entrance, stood up to experience tearfully extreme pain, dropped the crutches, and took the first successful steps into.the car awaiting at the hospital entrance to take me home.

    Here i was assuming something extremely miraculous would just happen and everything would be better than normal suddenly. Not so.


    There was:
    --lung and kidney damage;
    --bruised visceral organs;
    --both wrists sprained;
    --a dislocated shoulder
    --from head to toe cuts and abrasions,
    --a left leg with a snapped fibula and a steel plate supporting an approximate 1.5 to 2.0 in. gap of missing bone with a shattered upper and lower tibia attached together by the metal.
    --and, brain damage from a compound fracture that scarred from the outer right temporal lobe all the way into the core functional areas of the lumbar system--(the endocrine system running totally unpredictably and amuck, too).

    Recovery was beyond normal thought, and there was a miracle. Never had there been on record a gap in the main bone of the lower leg and it should reform. Facts are, i was playing tennis again after about four months after being hospitalized. Three months later, the steel plate was removed. The following summer my case was taken to a orthopedic convention in Colorado by my doctor who came back telling me all those specialist could find no other explanation except the miraculous.

    Cutting short the history, Eloheinu continues to deliver, make whole, and preserve the well-being of my friends, family, and myself...including even the pets we household.


    Just curious; but we should of neccessity come straight on perspective here NTL. So, your perspective on what you think is real and what you think is something one would imagine. Also where do you draw the line on what is and is not real if it exists in your imagination.

    ...and you indicated i put my foot in my mouth? It seems like i did, you're right, but I'm up for the challenge of trying to elucidate something sceintifically undefinable...a rare moment indeed, amd yet there is this question that popped into this noggin after reading your response being responded to in this post.

    I'm pretty sure we could both agree that the very basis for what is imagined wells forth from our memories, and only certain constructs of the imagined are not congruent with physical life. A person without looking forward into their past will have less of a basis for "real" imaginings than the one looking behind them into the future.

    These perspectives help to determine the reasonability of what is imagined.

    For you of all people to perpetually speak about only certain things as just imagination though appears to be almost an oxymoronic statement. Where would you be without your imagination? You use it all the time and imagine many things toward any given purpose you have determined to do. Where did the Bible Wheel come from?

    Right now for instance, you are imagining that straight and angled lines connected in certain patterns are symbols signifying letters forming words forming sentences forming ideas forming communication.

    What are numbers?

    Money is an imagined value given to a round piece of metal, a piece of paper, a piece of plastic, digits in a leger, and so on. ( Need we mention wood, wampum belts, shells, bones, beads and other things that have served the same purpose?)

    To think that you would bypass something as merely imagined though? Isn't this more indicative of a personal bias instead of actually disregarding what is imagined.

    Without your imagination and the identification ability of your consciousness working together, tell me how many puzzles will you solve and how many things will i invent?

    Would you even have your job you thoroughly enjoy if you were to write off the imaginational ascpects of this job, where taking schematic patterns and overlaying them, new solutions are discovered?

    Sometimes when you throw that argument out there, "it's imaginary", it is considered by context of when you use it, that it is a blanket statement, yet definitely not true in most instances where the desire is to write something off as insignificant.

    So, how do you define reality?
    Is it to you only what you can perceive?
    Where does reality end and imagination begin...
    ...or can you accept that imagination and reality are in constant interplay whenever wherever however we choose to do any certain thing?

    If you just think aboit the above and consider that not everyone, even in the physical plane, has the same capacity or retention in regard to perception...so what you might consider merely imagined could be true for you, yet not neccessarily true for somebody else.

    Remember also my own main stated reason for joining here a few years back, "To see if it could be determined where the anthropomorphism ends, or if it ever does, once they are initiated by an individual as the factor to help comprehend and/or utilize principles and forces existent as real to some and imaginary to others."

    (Well, actually, that was just stated more clearly than i have ever tried to explain it, and yet perhaps you had a better idea about this my intent than me all along. No doubt, you note how often i will take what are considered by most to be virtually abstract words and provide (to the best of my ability) parabolic imagery appropriate to the principles afoot when interacting in this forum.

    What i am trying to tell you is what is imagination to some is principles in effect and forces at work to others. Just because one person does not perceive these things at the same level hardly means these things are non-existent.

    Different people with different perspectives explain such things differently.
    (Take note of our varied perspectives on the "Statement of Hope for Harolditic Campingians." Your referece to it is what began volley for this round of conceptual badminton. We both began with two different birdies, came to terms, and each of us is attempting to work within the boundary lines every time the birdie sails back over the net.)

    I could tell another there is no such thing as gravity, and if believed, they might or could have a very painful day.

    Sometimes when i hear you say that any certain thing is only another's imaginings, i think you could be saying something like a, "there's no such thing as air, so it's alright if you decide to quit breathing. You'll be alright when you quit believing in what I can't measure" kind of thing.

    So, in the same vein, though attitude is more permanent than the shifting feelings it induces, does this mean that feelings are any less real than attitude....or is your attitude just your imagination. Is all that just in your head, or is that what causes you to do as you do...and just because it is immaterial, does that make it somehow any less real.

    I want you to define your terms of what reality actually is and what part of that reality is only imagined, because otherwise you are just blowing air and nobody actually gets a grip of what you are saying.

    Where does physics end and metaphysics begin, Richard?

    If a person can imagine and desire something fitting the parameters of their life being lived, who is anyone else to say it is either imaginary or unreal just because of looking at their own existence in less or more restrictive ways.

    Bars imprisoning one within certain confines of reasoning via cognitive bias are no sure sign that another is deluded or psychotic.

    Personally, it's wondered if failure to realistically negotiate factors of time, space, mass, energy, and the unknown are not much more of a barrier to most who assume the tangible could be more permanant than what holds it all together.

    I also wonder if people who do not deal in terms of the unknowns are not just inventing so many excuses to hide their fear or denial of what they cannot control.

    Even if a person says something does not exist because they are blind to such unknowns does not change the fact that it exists; and, just because someone chooses not to use ANSI as their standard, and defines something from (oh, let's say) an individual who thinks in terms of a morphic field paradigm, only means that those unfamiliar with that construct and it's means of symbolic representation are probably missing thr forest for the trees, confusing the map for the terrain.

    Prejudice man...think about it. Particularly, when anyone considers generalizing things that may appear similar, yet are possibly different. Over exaggerated sweeping blanket statements of generalized epitomes are easily refuted if needful, that is if one need do so.

    Ok, so i have given you a varying, perhaps less confining perspective, and i am curious what you think about these rudimentary things before anything else is answered. If you will do as wished, i am sure we might just come to a better picture from one anothers perspective.

    Thanks for taking to time to address these very issues in a more communicative fashion instead of just throwing out castigations. What i am actually saying in short is, though our own experiences are valid to us, they do not necessarily reflect reality or truth. When we are sharing back and forth like this, we come to a more cogent way of accounting for things i may not understand about you and vice versa.

    Shalom,

    Þ.Œ.

  5. #15
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    True Faith v/s True Belief

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Good morning Mystykal,

    I do not deny the possibility of eternal life. But there is a big difference between possible and probable. And besides, there is a wide variety of possibilities - Hindu reincarnation, Christian resurrection, mystical union with God, etc. So we have a wide range of possibilities with no way to determine which, if any, is true.

    You say that eternal life necessitates some variety of a GOD. I don't see the connection. Spiritual life could be just as natural as physical life.

    Your main point is epistemological. You are saying that knowledge is a form a faith. There is some truth in that since one of the popular epistemological definitions of truth is "justified true belief." Unfortunately, you are saying believers must FIRST take a leap of faith that their religion is true (be it Islam, Scientology, Mormonism, your version of Christianity, or whatever), and only THEN will they receive subjective "evidence" that justifies their beliefs in their own eyes but gives them NOTHING to justify their beliefs to anyone else. That's the recipe for delusion. Literally. It is literally the recipe for delusion. By that methodology, the believer has no way to know if they are totally deluded or if they have been brainwashed to believe cult teachings, or if they have gone psychotic. Sure, it's also possible that they have discovered the truth, but the odd thing is that they have no way to actually know if they really have or not! I don't see any reason to put myself in such a position.

    There also seems to be a big problem with your central claim that everyone should "take God at his word" in the the Bible because you don't seem to do that yourself. On the one hand, you seem to think that the OT is vastly superior to the NT as the "inspired Word of God" while on the other hand you sometimes speak of the NT as if it too were inspired and at other times as if it were not. I've found your position to be altogether confusing and inconsistent. I really have no idea what you believe about the Bible, so neither can I have any idea what you mean when you say that I should "take God at his word."

    You say that the "verification process is not presently availablein the physical sense." Very true! And its also true that it is not available in an intellectual sense or any other sense that I know of. So here is the question that you must answer. It is the central question that I have been asking you for many months: How does one discern between truth and error in their religion if they simply accept their holy book on faith? How does one discern between Islam, Mormonism, Scientology, and the ten thousand varieties of Christianity if there is no "verification process" of anything anyone says?

    And why would you take anyone's word on mere faith? Especially the word of a religious teacher, since we know that religious teachers are at the absolute BOTTOM of integrity and trustworthiness? The truth is that dogmatic religions - religions that must be accepted on faith - tend to corrupt the minds and morals of believers. Therefore, religion is the LAST place anyone should put their faith.

    Great chatting!

    Richards
    Hi Richard:

    Thank you for your response! I really liked it! I think your insistence that I am not answering your questions iis false. It's more like you are just side-stepping my answers because for you they do not agree with your somewhat illogical logic.
    First of all I do not think that the definition of faith from the dictoionary is Gospel truth! The whole idea of faith v/s belief is not well defined by most People. The ideas that the devils "believe" but are "lost" (Biblical view) suggests that there is a difference between the two terms. Your idea that they are the same and unprovable is a false claim... Here is why.

    You said "So here is the question that you must answer. It is the central question that I have been asking you for many months: How does one discern between truth and error in their religion if they simply accept their holy book on faith? How does one discern between Islam, Mormonism, Scientology, and the ten thousand varieties of Christianity if there is no "verification process" of anything anyone says? "

    And my answer to that is we know the difference between truth and error by the Physical Manifestation of the Divine. In other words when GOD speaks in a direct way to people or a person the "Moses' rod made into a living serpent" effect takes place. This phenonmenon convinced Pharoh in theory and has always been the sign which follows the True messenger of GOD. So the false leaders also have power but their power falls short of the true signs and wonders which the people of GOD have.

    So without the physical signs and wonders you must conclude that the potential for following a false religion is very high. The whole issue of the supernatural acts of GOD/Devil is to get the attention of people. To prove their power and position.
    "And there was war in heaven." Michael and his angels fought the devil and his angels... This scenario is played out on a daily basis here on earth. The fight is real. You may not see it simply because it is not your time...

    But to say that this is not a fact is to be quite ignorant of the world around you. I insist that you take a closer look at the real supernatural world and stop acting like it is all a fraud. I cannot say it enough that the GOD the true GOD will show themselves soon in a way which no one will be able to deny. All the false prophets and their followers will be exterminated. This idea is clearly taught in the Bible and other religious books. So aligning yourself with the true GOD is critical to long term survival...

    The meditative process if done correctly will always bring you face to face with the Great Mystery aka GOD! Different religions are not so much about right "GOD" or wrong "GOD" but more about wrong leaders. The process to finding GOD is the same... The details only matter in the big picture of the salvation process as it exists. Taking GOD at His Word does not mean you blindly accept all WRITINGs... The Word of GOD is only SPIRITUALLY discerned! You must study to find the actual truth in the Word!

    You Said, "Your main point is epistemological. You are saying that knowledge is a form a faith. There is some truth in that since one of the popular epistemological definitions of truth is "justified true belief." Unfortunately, you are saying believers must FIRST take a leap of faith that their religion is true (be it Islam, Scientology, Mormonism, your version of Christianity, or whatever), and only THEN will they receive subjective "evidence" that justifies their beliefs in their own eyes but gives them NOTHING to justify their beliefs to anyone else. That's the recipe for delusion. Literally. It is literally the recipe for delusion. By that methodology, the believer has no way to know if they are totally deluded or if they have been brainwashed to believe cult teachings, or if they have gone psychotic.

    Well, I guess according to that argument then you don't have any way of knowing anything! However, personal experience has shown us that when one meditates the actualization of the real comes through, no matter the person! The process is no respector of persons. But you must be willing to take the time to learn and experience the process. I can't give you faith. Only GOD can! The only way to live life is to know the Sprirtual aspects of it.



    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Last edited by Mystykal; 11-13-2013 at 01:55 AM.
    Mystykal

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