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  1. #1
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    What happend to Harold Camping's Cult Followers after his Failed Prediction?

    This is a fascinating article that follows up with what happened to the cult members who believed in Harold Camping's ridiculous prediction that the "rapture" would happen on May 21, 2011. Here's a snippet. Note that folks who get caught up in this kind of error tend to be the "analytic" sort -

    A Year After the Non-Apocalypse: Where Are They Now?
    A reporter tracks down the remnants of Harold Camping’s apocalyptic movement and finds out you don’t have to be crazy to believe something nuts.

    Quote Originally Posted by religiondispatches.org
    May 21 believers couldn’t afford to doubt either. Whenever I met one, I would ask: Is there any chance you might be wrong? Could someone have miscalculated, misunderstood a verse, botched a symbol? Just maybe?

    I asked this question of a believer in his mid-twenties. He started listening to Harold Camping’s radio show in college and immediately went out, bought a Bible, and immersed himself in it. After graduation, he took a job as an engineer at a Fortune 500 company; a job he loved and a job he quit because he thought the world was ending. He wrote the following in his resignation letter: “With less than three months to the day of Christ’s return, I desire to spend more time studying the Bible and sounding the trumpet warning of this imminent judgment.”

    He would not entertain the possibility, even hypothetically, that the date could be off. “This isn’t a prediction because a prediction has a potential for failure,” he told me.
    “Even if it’s 99.9 percent, that extra .1 percent makes it not certain. It’s like the weather. If it’s 60 percent, it may or may not rain. But in this case we’re saying 100 percent it will come. God with a consuming fire is coming to bring judgment and destroy the world.”
    I encountered this same certainty again and again. When I asked how they could be so sure, the answers were fuzzy. It wasn’t any one particular verse or chapter but rather the evidence as a whole. Some believers compared it to a puzzle. At first the pieces are spread out on a table, just shards of color, fragments of meaning. Then you assemble, piece by piece, finding a corner here, a connection there, until you begin to make out a portion of the picture, a glimpse of the scene. Finally, you only have a few pieces left and it’s obvious where they go.

    A psychologist might call this confirmation bias, that is, the tendency to accept only evidence that confirms what you already believe, to search for pieces that fit your puzzle. We’re all guilty of it at times. But that label doesn’t fully explain the willingness to suspend disbelief: Believers selectively accepted evidence that caused them to quit their jobs, alienate friends and family, and stand on street corners absorbing abuse from passers-by. There is something else going on.

    It’s been noted by scholars who study apocalyptic groups that believers tend to have analytical mindsets. They’re often good at math. I met several engineers, along with a mathematics major and two financial planners. These are people adept at identifying patterns in sets of data, and the methods they used to identify patterns in the Bible were frequently impressive, even brilliant. Finding unexpected connections between verses, what believers call comparing scripture with scripture, was a way to become known in the group. The essays they wrote explaining these links could be stunningly intricate.

    That intricacy was part of the appeal. The arguments were so complex that they were impossible to summarize and therefore very challenging to refute. As one longtime believer, an accountant, told me: “Based on everything we know, and when you look at the timelines, you look at the evidence—these aren’t the kind of things that just happen. They correlate too strongly for it not to be important.” The puzzle was too perfect. It couldn’t be wrong.
    Given the fact that serious and sincere believers can be so totally wrong when they feel so totally right should give all believers in the Bible pause. What makes your beliefs different than a Campingite? Answering that question will open the door to freedom from delusion.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    This is a fascinating article that follows up with what happened to the cult members who believed in Harold Camping's ridiculous prediction that the "rapture" would happen on May 21, 2011. Here's a snippet. Note that folks who get caught up in this kind of error tend to be the "analytic" sort -

    A Year After the Non-Apocalypse: Where Are They Now?
    A reporter tracks down the remnants of Harold Camping’s apocalyptic movement and finds out you don’t have to be crazy to believe something nuts.



    Given the fact that serious and sincere believers can be so totally wrong when they feel so totally right should give all believers in the Bible pause. What makes your beliefs different than a Campingite? Answering that question will open the door to freedom from delusion.
    The cult members will still continue perhaps they have learned their lesson not to anyhow believe in the time of the end as to what Jesus said that "no one knows the day and time of His coming not even the angels except the Father who is in heaven". This is a punishment for not believing in what Jesus said. The end is yet to come and it is not possible to set a date yet ....AD 70 or whatever it is.

    God Bless.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    The cult members will still continue perhaps they have learned their lesson not to anyhow believe in the time of the end as to what Jesus said that "no one knows the day and time of His coming not even the angels except the Father who is in heaven". This is a punishment for not believing in what Jesus said. The end is yet to come and it is not possible to set a date yet ....AD 70 or whatever it is.

    God Bless.
    Yeah, but the fact that there were thousands upon thousands of deluded Christians who believe the Bible is the inerrant and infallible Word of God disagreed with those verses only proves that the Bible is not a reliable guide. They gave over 80 MILLION dollars to the deluded Harold Camping who said he preached NOTHING but the "the whole Bible in its entirety."

    How do you know that your beliefs about the Bible are not equally wrong? You have nothing but your own interpretation with no proof.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  4. #4
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    They started a new brain-dead cult!

    I was studying the crazy teachings from http://www.thefirmament.org about how God supposedly encoded a false value of the diameter of the sun into the Bible and I ran into a Yahoo group being run by the followers of failed date setter and doomsday predictor, the Arch Loon Harold Camping. And imagine my surprise when I discovered that they don't believe that his prediction about the beginning of Judgement Day on May 21, 2011 was false at all. No sir! It happened right on schedule! Here is the message I accidentally encountered. It was posted just a few days ago:

    Quote Originally Posted by Raving Fundamentalist Lunatic Followers of Harold Camping
    It seems to be true as we study the bible, and for the deeper spiritual meaning, that in particular the book of Acts, we see this great connection and the spiritual similarity of the last days; the last days which began to come to pass in 33 AD and with the first pouring out of the Holy Spirit of truth then, and with the pouring out of the Holy Spirit again with the beginning of the Day of Judgment on May 21, 2011.

    It can be looked at and understood as the Holy Spirit of truth coming to judge the world with the word of God. The first pouring out of the Holy Spirit which came on May 21, 33 AD, was then the beginning of the building of the external church of the church age, which lasted for 1955 days, to the very day and ended on May 21, 1988. Then the great tribulation time started and for 23 years exactly to the very day and it then ended on May 21, 2011.

    And then on this great day of May 21, 2011, God began a second fulfilling and bringing to pass of the last days, these last days are the spiritual ones or types of the last days, where nothing is happening literally as they did during the first ones.

    This is the time when God or Christ is coming on the clouds of glory, and is pouring out His Holy Spirit of truth on his Elect people, and is gathering all of his people into His spiritual kingdom. For the kingdom of God is not yet seen or known to us outwardly but inwardly and spiritually, the kingdom of God is yet within us, and has to do with peace and joy of the Holy Spirit.

    But it may be true from the word of God, that God is also now coming and with his word and by his Holy Spirit is judging all of the unsaved people, in these days after May 21, 2011.
    God connects and therefore helps to reveal these things and events to us by the dates and times concerning them, as follows;

    1. The first Pentecost on May 21, 33 AD. This was the beginning of The New Testament Church age.
    2. On May 21, 1988, the 13,000 year of the worlds history. This was the end of the church age, and the beginning of Gods judgment which began upon the churches, and as the Holy Spirit then departed from the churches.
    3. On May 21, 2011, the 13,023 year of the worlds history. This was the beginning of the Day of Judgment.

    This is also why this day is called the Day of Judgment in 2 Peter 3:7, and ties it to the flood of Noah’s day in the previous verses.

    But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the Day of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

    And we are given the same pattern of numbers, dates and times, from the bible, from the biblical calendar of history, so that we could not possibly miss the great significance of these things.

    From Creation to the year of the flood of Noah’s day we have: 6023 years. And from Creation to the year of the Day of Judgment on May 21, 2011, we have 13,023 years. And God further ties the Day of Judgment to the flood of Noah’s day to the exact day that the flood began on the 17th day of the 2nd month of the Hebrew calendar, which corresponded to May 21, 2011 of our modern Gregorian calendar.

    We are also given much additional information from the bible, with time and dates, historical events and parables and numbers, to tie in this information and assure us of the truth and reality of these spiritual things.

    The most important thing for us as Gods Elect people to grasp and to understand, that is happening now at this present time, is of this spiritual pouring out of the Holy Spirit of truth upon Gods Elect people, for the Gathering together and edifying and sanctifying of us by the Holy Spirit and through the word of God.

    We only can see this and know this spiritually, and as we walk in the Spirit and by faith. And also it is in the measure of our obedience to this, to walking in the Spirit and by faith, that we will see and understand the truth and reality of these spiritual things.

    We must know and understand that it is our obedience to the word of God and our faithfulness to it and him alone that really matters. It is not in our own belief, or our own works, and even our own understanding that can help us, or has given to us salvation.

    The coming of the Holy Spirit of truth, is for the sanctification and edification of all Gods Elect people, through the word of God; causing us to have conviction of our sin and repentance from sin, thus causing us to be tried and purified and refined. But for the unsaved, it causes them to be judged and spiritually burned up. For God and his word is a consuming fire.
    I don't know if I should or

    Fundamentalist religion destroys minds. It creates luna-freaking-tics! And now they've started a new cult that is oddly similar to the JWs who predicted that Christ would literally return in 1914 and when that failed they said it happened "spiritually" which is exactly the same thing King Freak Harold Camping said. Wow.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  5. #5
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    I wouldn't say it is fundamentalism per se, so much as fundaments.

    What really is so piteous about so many extremists like this is that because they do not know the reality of discipleship, following Y'shua, they talk about what they imagine and is not tangible for them, they say that this is "spiritual", proving beyond a shadow of any doubt they do not know the first thing about what actually is spiritual.

    These folks, like so many others fall victim to their own allegorization of the Bible to make them think it somehow fits their experience.

    Them calling the pentecost after the resurrection the first pentecost gave me a little chuckle...but:I really laughed when they said something about judgment having already happened and the spirit not saving anyone anymore, and right after this quote the words of Y'shua, "My words are spirit and life"...doesn't anybody notice this emblazoned contradiction.

    Now salvation is not a one time decision but a continual work of God in any who are believing and persist. Besides, more than a person having no control or making a contribution to their physical birth, a person being delivered by God has even less control and contributes less than nothing to being born again from above.

    There are many blatant contradictions to Biblical truth in their article, but it just doesn't pay to tell date setters that the last days began when Y'shua cried out, "Telestai"("paid in full" or "transaction complete"or as the AV writes it, "It is finished."), and if His spirit were to leave, everything would no longer hold together.

    They are nuts.

    They remind me of seperationists. Tell them the reason they are not experiencing any deliverance, wholeness, or preservation (aka:soteria/saving) is because they do not love Y'shua nor keep His commands...beginning with, "as you are going in the world, declare the gospel to every creature...and the very reason they are not experiencing spirit life is because of this ignorant way of ignoring His words for the sake of their number guessing.

    Þ.Œ.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    I wouldn't say it is fundamentalism per se, so much as fundaments.

    What really is so piteous about so many extremists like this is that because they do not know the reality of discipleship, following Y'shua, they talk about what they imagine and is not tangible for them, they say that this is "spiritual", proving beyond a shadow of any doubt they do not know the first thing about what actually is spiritual.

    These folks, like so many others fall victim to their own allegorization of the Bible to make them think it somehow fits their experience.
    I'm not sure I follow, since it seems that the concept of "following Y'shua" involves all the same elements of self-deception these folks display to a greater or lesser degree. Perhaps there is a difference in extent, but it seems to be of the same essence. Perhaps a different quantity, but of the same quality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Them calling the pentecost after the resurrection the first pentecost gave me a little chuckle...but:I really laughed when they said something about judgment having already happened and the spirit not saving anyone anymore, and right after this quote the words of Y'shua, "My words are spirit and life"...doesn't anybody notice this emblazoned contradiction.
    That didn't leap out at me because I understood them as referring to the "first Pentecost" following the crucifixion when the Holy Spirit was given. But of course, their idea that the Holy Spirit is now being "poured out" through their preaching that the Holy Spirit has been taken away is a bit problematic .... to say the least! That's the essence of their insanity. They are absolutely committed to the ludicrous and absolutely unfounded so-called "Biblical calendar of history" that was made up by their mad cult leader Harold Camping. They take it as absolute and incontrovertible. And so they declare everything it predicted happened right on schedule. Wow. Pure madness.

    But note! Their madness reveals the essential insanity of Christianity itself which began as a failed doomsday cult.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Now salvation is not a one time decision but a continual work of God in any who are believing and persist.
    Believing what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Besides, more than a person having no control or making a contribution to their physical birth, a person being delivered by God has even less control and contributes less than nothing to being born again from above.
    That sounds like Calvinism. The believer is every bit as passive as the baby being delivered. There's nothing anyone can do to "get saved".

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    There are many blatant contradictions to Biblical truth in their article, but it just doesn't pay to tell date setters that the last days began when Y'shua cried out, "Telestai"("paid in full" or "transaction complete"or as the AV writes it, "It is finished."), and if His spirit were to leave, everything would no longer hold together.

    They are nuts.
    Too true. And that's why all the various Christianities seem to me to be self-evidently irrational and irrelevant. The Bible is so ambiguous as to be meaningless. It's really nothing but a Rorschach test.

    It's great secret was revealed in the movie Circle of Iron with David Carradine, when the seeker finally fought his way through all the obstacles and found the Book of Enlightenment and opened it and saw [deleted to prevent spoiling the movie].

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    They remind me of seperationists. Tell them the reason they are not experiencing any deliverance, wholeness, or preservation (aka:soteria/saving) is because they do not love Y'shua nor keep His commands...beginning with, "as you are going in the world, declare the gospel to every creature...and the very reason they are not experiencing spirit life is because of this ignorant way of ignoring His words for the sake of their number guessing.

    Þ.Œ.
    Now you've really put your foot in it! Are you suggesting that "true believers" actually experience [in a scientifically demonstrable way] "any deliverance, wholeness, or preservation"? You've gotta be kidding my friend! That's the oldest lie in the book! Every lying preacher speaks in unison with every deluded believer that mere "belief" will give them all they ever wanted - money, sex, power - or in the sanitized religious lingo "deliverance, wholeness, preservation". This is the "secret" of The Secretwhich was bought by rubes conditioned by religion to believe that belief was all that's needed to get everything one might want. That's the quintessential pipe dream and the essence of all religion, not to mention the essential promise of every conman that has ever helped fools fulfill the proverb concerning themselves and money.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Þ.Œ.
    ...wouldn't say it is fundamentalism per se, so much as fundaments.

    What really is so piteous about so many extremists like this is that because they do not know the reality of discipleship, following Y'shua, they talk about what they imagine and is not tangible for them, they say that this is "spiritual", proving beyond a shadow of any doubt they do not know the first thing about what actually is spiritual.

    These folks, like so many others fall victim to their own allegorization of the Bible to make them think it somehow fits their experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Richard
    I'm not sure I follow, since it seems that the concept of "following Y'shua" involves all the same elements of self-deception these folks display to a greater or lesser degree. Perhaps there is a difference in extent, but it seems to be of the same essence. Perhaps a different quantity, but of the same quality.
    What same elements do you mean?

    Basically, conventional Patristic xianity, be it orthodox, protestant, sect, schism, or kultus at it's root is humanism wrapped in a pretty xian package. What i am speaking of, if not from the start, eventually breaks with this.

    It stands in distinct opposition to xian humanism.

    It's not about God doing it all for us, because this is not true.

    God did it all for Himself and everything exists for His purpose and plan. We can either go with His program or die.

    It's really quite simple. Most people just don't even have the guts to face up to what he has designated, and even fewer find conformity to His design for living a viable option.
    Quote Originally Posted by Þ.Œ.
    Their calling the pentecost after the resurrection the first pentecost gave me a little chuckle...but:I really laughed when they said something about judgment having already happened and the spirit not saving anyone anymore, and right after this quote the words of Y'shua, "My words are spirit and life"...doesn't anybody notice this emblazoned contradiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Richard
    That didn't leap out at me because I understood them as referring to the "first Pentecost" following the crucifixion when the Holy Spirit was given. But of course, their idea that the Holy Spirit is now being "poured out" through their preaching that the Holy Spirit has been taken away is a bit problematic .... to say the least! That's the essence of their insanity. They are absolutely committed to the ludicrous and absolutely unfounded so-called "Biblical calendar of history" that was made up by their mad cult leader Harold Camping. They take it as absolute and incontrovertible. And so they declare everything it predicted happened right on schedule. Wow. Pure madness.

    But note! Their madness reveals the essential insanity of Christianity itself which began as a failed doomsday cult.
    Oh, we all see things from our own slant, and this probably is why we note different things.

    I wonder if it was True Christianity that is the failed doomsday cult, or is it the doomsday cults that extrapolate themselves as standing out from the rest of organized xianity will always fail.

    Y'shua more than onc in different ways, said, "That's a big None-ya, folks; so just quit with the datesetting and watching events unfold. Instead, look up, watch and pray, so that you can be counted worthy."

    Just knowing these red words should make people consider they are no longer walking the walk when their "looking" is in the wrong direction. You cannot look two ways at the same time (without video feed).

    It sounds like these Camping campers give more credence to the devisings of one man's "private interpretation" more than they do the Bible itself, hunh?




    Quote Originally Posted by Þ.Œ.
    Now salvation is not a one time decision but a continual work of God in any who are believing and persist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Richard
    Believing what?
    Believing as in believing and doing, not just agreeing in the head.

    Believing into the finished work of Y'shua's sacrafice: identifying ourselves in Him in this, instead of any organized effort detracting from this one thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Þ.Œ.
    Besides, more than a person having no control or making a contribution to their physical birth, a person being delivered by God has even less control and contributes less than nothing to being born again from above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Richard
    That sounds like Calvinism. The believer is every bit as passive as the baby being delivered. There's nothing anyone can do to "get saved".
    I wasn't talking about Calvinism, and neither am i Armenian. I was jist presenting half of the picture...yeah right, a baby being delivered passive? This i have yet to see...maybe the stillborn perhaps, but not for the others.



    Quote Originally Posted by Þ.Œ.
    There are many blatant contradictions to Biblical truth in their article, but it just doesn't pay to tell date setters that the last days began when Y'shua cried out, "Telestai"("paid in full" or "transaction complete"or as the AV writes it, "It is finished."), and if His spirit were to leave, everything would no longer hold together.

    They are nuts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Richard
    Too true. And that's why all the various Christianities seem to me to be self-evidently irrational and irrelevant. The Bible is so ambiguous as to be meaningless. It's really nothing but a Rorschach test.

    It's great secret was revealed in the movie Circle of Iron with David Carradine, when the seeker finally fought his way through all the obstacles and found the Book of Enlightenment and opened it and saw [deleted to prevent spoiling the movie].
    If people would recognize tje purpose of the Bible, a progressive revelation about all of who Y'shua is, the inkblots lose their appeal to the imagination.

    The Bible is ambiguous to any who are unwilling to admit, or cannot recognize the aforesaid fact.



    Quote Originally Posted by Þ.Œ.
    They remind me of seperationists. Tell them the reason they are not experiencing any deliverance, wholeness, or preservation (aka:soteria/saving) is because they do not love Y'shua nor keep His commands...beginning with, "as you are going in the world, declare the gospel to every creature...and the very reason they are not experiencing spirit life is because of this ignorant way of ignoring His words for the sake of their number guessing.

    Þ.Œ.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Richard
    Now you've really put your foot in it! Are you suggesting that "true believers" actually experience [in a scientifically demonstrable way] "any deliverance, wholeness, or preservation"? You've gotta be kidding my friend! That's the oldest lie in the book! Every lying preacher speaks in unison with every deluded believer that mere "belief" will give them all they ever wanted - money, sex, power - or in the sanitized religious lingo "deliverance, wholeness, preservation". This is the "secret" of The Secret™ which was bought by rubes conditioned by religion to believe that belief was all that's needed to get everything one might want. That's the quintessential pipe dream and the essence of all religion, not to mention the essential promise of every conman that has ever helped fools fulfill the proverb concerning themselves and money.
    It was figured and planned to expect no other response. It's about time this were all hashed out.

    Here goes, attempt #1:

    Within the mystery of iniquity are factors prevalent leading to an "if i do this, then i am going to get that" attitude. It is purely physically thinking, and because of this very fact, one rises no higher. Indeed, by those whose thoughts, feelings, words and actions have their basis in this, then this is all that can be known.

    This wrong way begins and ends in actions stemming from the root attitude that "I want what I want and this is why I shall do as I do. Essentially this is the "instinctive" behind idolatry. Idol worshippers only serve the dictates of their chosen Ikon--(be that person, place, or thing)--to get what they want, and not for the sole merit of (that person, place, or thing).

    Those sho are greedy for gain suffer at the hands of the conmen because they so badly want what has been misrepresented sparkling in the wrong light...or is that darkness?

    People who have not laid their own motives down at the cross to carry the Christ's instead are not really true believers are they? They approach Elohim with the intention of giving to get, tit for tat, this for that.Not True Christianity, and neither True Belief from the way i see it...now.

    It is a failure of blindness not to recognize God does not need any one of us, but loves us NTL. It is also this mistaken misunderstanding which causes many to fail to account for His holiness. In short, without listing a series of neglected comprehensions, nobody of their own merit, whatever the words, thoughts, or deeds is even on speaking terms with Yah without walking dependent on Him denying even what we use mental rationale to think, instead of considering who He is as he reveals himself.

    A true believer will continually walk always considering the sacrifice of Y'shua, as this is the very basis of life for them...the covenant then becomes real.

    I don't know about science in this regard, but both doctors and financial experts (BMAs) whom have been employed end up completely astounded when instead of following the recommended course of action in my own better interest--whether that is abeyance or it's opposite being done in what would normally be considered an act of self-loss against all odds,--only to see the end as something for more than and good that could have ever been expected even in the best analyzed case scenario.

    I am not out to prove this to anybody. Maybe i am not even framing the words clearly, but i know what works, and the first step begins when one is clear that this life is not about me or you at all.

    Rube's cube and all the physical accouterments is not what is intended as my meaning at all. No sideshow here.

    The issue is relational, considering things in God's terms, coming alongside His purpose, finding far more satisfaction and needs met dying to ourselves and living according to the Christ: living as a dead men to what we assume we need, letting God handle that, and concerning ojrselves with his design for us: to die so His "dunamis" enlivens all our doings.


    You have heard the optomist/pessimist analogy how some think the cup is either half full or half empty.

    Truth is it is full all the time. It is all a matter or what is utilizing the space within the container....and if they are trying to get you to believe and do something without being able to sit down and negotiate everything through, counting the cost, don't buy it, because more than likely they are telling you only what they want you to hear so they can get you to do what they want you to do.

    If they are making an appeal only to reason, it is an issue of grey matter.
    If they are appealing to the senses, it is sensual.
    An appeal to the imagination is ” ? "...etc...

    If it is an appeal to changing everything you thought was right, to walk in the great paradox: count the cost; because this is what God says do, contrary to what religious hucksters will lie to you saying. God is not asking for blind faith; but for those who will follow Him, a step by step process of leading us further laid out and becomes known as we continue.


    ?howZat?


    What's next? I know that i have not covered near even close to something completely comprehensive about my current perspective, so ask away or tell me off or whatever else comes to mind out from the above.


    Þ.Œ.

  8. #8
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    Great post, Tim.


    I especially liked

    ' ... sparkling in the wrong light...or is that darkness?'


    Blessings, brother.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    What same elements do you mean?
    Believing, without evidence, that what you imagine is real.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Basically, conventional Patristic xianity, be it orthodox, protestant, sect, schism, or kultus at it's root is humanism wrapped in a pretty xian package. What i am speaking of, if not from the start, eventually breaks with this.
    The stuff I was talking about is far from "Patristic xianity" since I was referring to all the Christianities that have been arisen throughout history. They are all just matters of personal opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    It stands in distinct opposition to xian humanism.

    It's not about God doing it all for us, because this is not true.

    God did it all for Himself and everything exists for His purpose and plan. We can either go with His program or die.

    It's really quite simple. Most people just don't even have the guts to face up to what he has designated, and even fewer find conformity to His design for living a viable option
    That sounds like Calvinism, ya know?

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    I wonder if it was True Christianity that is the failed doomsday cult, or is it the doomsday cults that extrapolate themselves as standing out from the rest of organized xianity will always fail.

    Y'shua more than onc in different ways, said, "That's a big None-ya, folks; so just quit with the datesetting and watching events unfold. Instead, look up, watch and pray, so that you can be counted worthy."

    Just knowing these red words should make people consider they are no longer walking the walk when their "looking" is in the wrong direction. You cannot look two ways at the same time (without video feed).
    I wouldn't be surprised to learn that those words were put in the mouth of Christ by his followers after his predictions failed

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    It sounds like these Camping campers give more credence to the devisings of one man's "private interpretation" more than they do the Bible itself, hunh?
    Oh yes, that is most certainly the case. But they exemplify how religious folks tend to deceive themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Believing as in believing and doing, not just agreeing in the head.

    Believing into the finished work of Y'shua's sacrafice: identifying ourselves in Him in this, instead of any organized effort detracting from this one thing.
    Yes, there are two meanings to "believing". One is "trust" as in "I trust my wife" or "I am faithful to my wife" whereas the other has to do with accepting a proposition like "God exists eternally as three persons in one Godhead."

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    I wasn't talking about Calvinism, and neither am i Armenian. I was jist presenting half of the picture...yeah right, a baby being delivered passive? This i have yet to see...maybe the stillborn perhaps, but not for the others.
    Passive in the sense that the baby did not choose to be conceived, and after that, it did not "choose" to be born. It was driven by necessity.

    But you missed the main point, which is that you said that it is God who does the saving, and that's what the Calvinists say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    If people would recognize tje purpose of the Bible, a progressive revelation about all of who Y'shua is, the inkblots lose their appeal to the imagination.
    That sounds like your interpretation of the inkblot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    The Bible is ambiguous to any who are unwilling to admit, or cannot recognize the aforesaid fact.
    Not true. The Bible is demonstrably "ambiguous".

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    It was figured and planned to expect no other response. It's about time this were all hashed out.

    Here goes, attempt #1:

    Within the mystery of iniquity are factors prevalent leading to an "if i do this, then i am going to get that" attitude. It is purely physically thinking, and because of this very fact, one rises no higher. Indeed, by those whose thoughts, feelings, words and actions have their basis in this, then this is all that can be known.

    This wrong way begins and ends in actions stemming from the root attitude that "I want what I want and this is why I shall do as I do. Essentially this is the "instinctive" behind idolatry. Idol worshippers only serve the dictates of their chosen Ikon--(be that person, place, or thing)--to get what they want, and not for the sole merit of (that person, place, or thing).

    Those sho are greedy for gain suffer at the hands of the conmen because they so badly want what has been misrepresented sparkling in the wrong light...or is that darkness?

    People who have not laid their own motives down at the cross to carry the Christ's instead are not really true believers are they? They approach Elohim with the intention of giving to get, tit for tat, this for that.Not True Christianity, and neither True Belief from the way i see it...now.

    It is a failure of blindness not to recognize God does not need any one of us, but loves us NTL. It is also this mistaken misunderstanding which causes many to fail to account for His holiness. In short, without listing a series of neglected comprehensions, nobody of their own merit, whatever the words, thoughts, or deeds is even on speaking terms with Yah without walking dependent on Him denying even what we use mental rationale to think, instead of considering who He is as he reveals himself.
    If God really "loved us" we wouldn't need to be told.

    Your explanation is filled with strange presuppositions that seem more or less unique to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    A true believer will continually walk always considering the sacrifice of Y'shua, as this is the very basis of life for them...the covenant then becomes real.
    I totally understand life from that point of view. I lived in it for over a decade.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    I am not out to prove this to anybody. Maybe i am not even framing the words clearly, but i know what works, and the first step begins when one is clear that this life is not about me or you at all.
    That's not particularly lucid to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Rube's cube and all the physical accouterments is not what is intended as my meaning at all. No sideshow here.

    The issue is relational, considering things in God's terms, coming alongside His purpose, finding far more satisfaction and needs met dying to ourselves and living according to the Christ: living as a dead men to what we assume we need, letting God handle that, and concerning ojrselves with his design for us: to die so His "dunamis" enlivens all our doings.
    The concept of "dying to ourselves" makes fine sense as a metaphor for not being to selfish, but really, to make a religion of it? Bah. Look at the nuts of the first few centuries who thought Godliness was self-torture and self-hatred. Something got lost in translation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    If they are making an appeal only to reason, it is an issue of grey matter.
    If they are appealing to the senses, it is sensual.
    An appeal to the imagination is ” ? "...etc...

    If it is an appeal to changing everything you thought was right, to walk in the great paradox: count the cost; because this is what God says do, contrary to what religious hucksters will lie to you saying. God is not asking for blind faith; but for those who will follow Him, a step by step process of leading us further laid out and becomes known as we continue.


    ?howZat?


    What's next? I know that i have not covered near even close to something completely comprehensive about my current perspective, so ask away or tell me off or whatever else comes to mind out from the above.
    It's all good. It is foolish to appeal just to reason, just to intuition, just to senses, or "just to" anything less than your full being. I just don't see what God, the Bible, or Jesus has to do with anything. They are intellectual constructs folks vivify with their daily experience and then project "out there" thinking it is all real. I don't see any reality in any of it.

    Great chatting, Sir Timotheos!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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    It's about Faith in the Truth aka GOD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Believing, without evidence, that what you imagine is real.


    The stuff I was talking about is far from "Patristic xianity" since I was referring to all the Christianities that have been arisen throughout history. They are all just matters of personal opinion.


    That sounds like Calvinism, ya know?


    I wouldn't be surprised to learn that those words were put in the mouth of Christ by his followers after his predictions failed


    Oh yes, that is most certainly the case. But they exemplify how religious folks tend to deceive themselves.


    Yes, there are two meanings to "believing". One is "trust" as in "I trust my wife" or "I am faithful to my wife" whereas the other has to do with accepting a proposition like "God exists eternally as three persons in one Godhead."


    Passive in the sense that the baby did not choose to be conceived, and after that, it did not "choose" to be born. It was driven by necessity.

    But you missed the main point, which is that you said that it is God who does the saving, and that's what the Calvinists say.


    That sounds like your interpretation of the inkblot.


    Not true. The Bible is demonstrably "ambiguous".


    If God really "loved us" we wouldn't need to be told.

    Your explanation is filled with strange presuppositions that seem more or less unique to you.


    I totally understand life from that point of view. I lived in it for over a decade.


    That's not particularly lucid to me.


    The concept of "dying to ourselves" makes fine sense as a metaphor for not being to selfish, but really, to make a religion of it? Bah. Look at the nuts of the first few centuries who thought Godliness was self-torture and self-hatred. Something got lost in translation.


    It's all good. It is foolish to appeal just to reason, just to intuition, just to senses, or "just to" anything less than your full being. I just don't see what God, the Bible, or Jesus has to do with anything. They are intellectual constructs folks vivify with their daily experience and then project "out there" thinking it is all real. I don't see any reality in any of it.

    Great chatting, Sir Timotheos!

    Richard
    Hi Richard:
    I hope you will respond here too! You Said, " It is foolish to appeal just to reason, just to intuition, just to senses, or "just to" anything less than your full being. I just don't see what God, the Bible, or Jesus has to do with anything. They are intellectual constructs folks vivify with their daily experience and then project "out there" thinking it is all real. I don't see any reality in any of it. "

    The idea that there is no future life or eternal life simply because there is no tangible proof at the moment which fits the scientific model - does not mean that it is not an option and a possibility. Hence the need for GOD. The reason faith exists is for the function of taking someone at their word. The verification process is not presently availablein the physical sense. It's like trying to tell some kid that George Washington was the first president of the USA. All the "evidence" in the world will not really make a believer out of the kid without the use of some form of faith. You have to accept the written word about the life of George Washington. No one alive today ever saw him. And yet you believe the evidence left behind about him.

    The same holds true for GOD. The evidence left behind must be accepted and then the living experience will enter the life when the seeker is ready. "Without faith it is impossible to please God." Hebrews 11:6


    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Last edited by Mystykal; 11-11-2013 at 01:51 AM.
    Mystykal

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