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  1. #191
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    Vulgata is called "Biblia Sacra"


  2. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Ha, on page 11 of your book I see that "Holy Bible" is King James Perversionist

    Catholics seemingly don't call it that way:


    http://usccb.org/bible/books-of-the-bible/index.cfm

    oh no, they've been infected:

    That's very curious - a Catholic site that presents only the 66 books of the Protestant Bible? I'll have to check up to find out what they are up to. The Council of Trent defines the canon as including the apocrypha:
    DECREE CONCERNING THE CANONICAL SCRIPTURES
    The sacred and holy, ecumenical, and general Synod of Trent,--lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the Same three legates of the Apostolic Sec presiding therein,--keeping this [Page 18] always in view, that, errors being removed, the purity itself of the Gospel be preserved in the Church; which (Gospel), before promised through the prophets in the holy Scriptures, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, first promulgated with His own mouth, and then commanded to be preached by His Apostles to every creature, as the fountain of all, both saving truth, and moral discipline; and seeing clearly that this truth and discipline are contained in the written books, and the unwritten traditions which, received by the Apostles from the mouth of Christ himself, or from the Apostles themselves, the Holy Ghost dictating, have come down even unto us, transmitted as it were from hand to hand; (the Synod) following the examples of the orthodox Fathers, receives and venerates with an equal affection of piety, and reverence, all the books both of the Old and of the New Testament--seeing that one God is the author of both --as also the said traditions, as well those appertaining to faith as to morals, as having been dictated, either by Christ's own word of mouth, or by the Holy Ghost, and preserved in the Catholic Church by a continuous succession. And it has thought it meet that a list of the sacred books be inserted in this decree, lest a doubt may arise in any one's mind, which are the books that are received by this Synod. They are as set down here below: of the Old Testament: the five books of Moses, to wit, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Josue, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, the first book of Esdras, and the second which is entitled Nehemias; Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Davidical Psalter, consisting of a hundred and fifty psalms; the Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, with Baruch; Ezechiel, Daniel; the twelve minor prophets, to wit, Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggaeus, Zacharias, Malachias; two books of the Machabees, the first and the second. Of the New Testament: the four Gospels, according [Page 19] to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; the Acts of the Apostles written by Luke the Evangelist; fourteen epistles of Paul the apostle, (one) to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, (one) to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, (one) to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two of Peter the apostle, three of John the apostle, one of the apostle James, one of Jude the apostle, and the Apocalypse of John the apostle. But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema. Let all, therefore, understand, in what order, and in what manner, the said Synod, after having laid the foundation of the Confession of faith, will proceed, and what testimonies and authorities it will mainly use in confirming dogmas, and in restoring morals in the Church.
    Note that the Catholic Bible contains the same books in the same order as the Protestant Bible with the apocrypha interspersed. Thus, when the Reformers defined the Bible by restricting the OT books to those accepted by the Jews, they produced the 66 books in the order of the Bible Wheel. This means that the pattern cannot be attributed to the Catholics, the Protestants, or the Jews. I took this as good evidence that the pattern could not be attributed to any human or group of humans.


    As for your constant assertion that the KJV is "perverted" - if you want to press that point, you should start a thread on that topic and give your reasons. I doubt they would stand up under reason.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  3. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post


    As for your constant assertion that the KJV is "perverted" - if you want to press that point, you should start a thread on that topic and give your reasons. I doubt they would stand up under reason.
    Compare fe USCCB Daniel 9 with KJV Daniel 9:


    http://www.usccb.org/bible/daniel/9

    25 Know and understand: From the utterance of the word that Jerusalem was to be rebuilt* Until there is an anointed ruler, there shall be seven weeks. In the course of sixty-two weeks it shall be rebuilt, With squares and trenches, in time of affliction.

    26 After the sixty-two weeks an anointed one* shall be cut down with no one to help him. And the people of a leader who will come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. His end shall come in a flood; until the end of the war, which is decreed,there will be desolation.

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...+9&version=KJV

    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


    For Colossians 1:16-17 USCCB has:

    16 For in him* were created all things in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things were created through him and for him.i

    17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.


    where KJV has:

    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

  4. #194
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    Colossians 1:17,

    Greek:

    καὶ αὐτός ἐστιν πρὸ πάντων καὶ τὰ πάντα ἐν αὐτῷ συνέστηκεν.






    And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.


    interesting: συνίστημι:

    www.sunypress.edu/pdf/61695.pdf
    System comes from the Greek sunhistamai meaning “to stand together” (sun- “together”; histemi, “stand”)








    Cf what Rashi said on Genesis 1:1,

    in the beginning it was His intention to create it with the Divine Standard of Justice, but he perceived that the world would not endure; so He preceded it with the Divine Standard of Mercy, allying it with the Divine Standard of Justice
    "he perceived that the world would not endure" =
    "raah shaein haolam mitkayeim"

    "mitkayeim" from "kum" - to stand up,
    like also "t'kumah" = resurrection
    and "makom" = space, room, place.

    And also with what he said on Genesis 1:31,
    the sixth day: Scripture added a “hey” on the sixth [day], at the completion of the Creation, to tell us that He stipulated with them, [“you were created] on the condition that Israel accept the Five Books of the Torah.” [The numerical value of the “hey” is five.] (Tanchuma Bereishith 1). Another explanation for “the sixth day” : They [the works of creation] were all suspended until the “sixth day,” referring to the sixth day of Sivan, which was prepared for the giving of the Torah (Shab. 88a). [The“hey” is the definite article, alluding to the well-known sixth day, the sixth day of Sivan, when the Torah was given (ad loc.).]
    "They [the works of creation] were all suspended " =
    "kulam t'luyim v'omdim"

    "talui"= hung, hanged, suspended, depending on.

    "talui v'omeid"= pending, suspending, doubtful, undecided, sub judice.

    "talah"= to hang

    "amad" = to stand.




    "kulam" would be Greek τὰ πάντα

  5. #195
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    1 Corinthians 15:24-28
    New International Version (NIV)
    24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[a] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.


    The above scriptural text alone proves beyond doubt that Jesus cannot be God.

  6. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowydeejay View Post
    1 Corinthians 15:24-28
    New International Version (NIV)
    24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[a] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.


    The above scriptural text alone proves beyond doubt that Jesus cannot be God.
    I agree snowydeejay

    Whichever translation is used to get to the meaning of these verses, this is the conclusion I draw. The only certainty of what the Apostle Paul believed, we would have to have his original manuscript and better still ask him what he meant exactly so there is no confusion.

    I do not know of any other translation that gets as close to the original manuscript as the Emphatic Diaglott which shows the Greek that is translated. Here are the same verses found in the Diaglott by which to compare.
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    David
    Last edited by David M; 11-05-2012 at 01:50 AM.

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