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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    !
    Because there is no rape. It doesn't follow the known behavior of a rapist; a rapist will just screw and go, screw and go. No rapist will wait one month for the grieving process to finish and follow customary marriage rites and declare the woman as his wife and him as his husband before screwing the woman. After that the Israelites will leave them as they were unlikely to survive through the wars so that could remarry again. The virgin girls were in fact willing partners as none bothered to resist the presumed "rape" or commit suicide or run away. I repeat NONE.
    Your assertion that there was no rape because the soldiers had to wait 30 days is absurd. Rape is defined as forced sex. There is absolutely no reason to assume that the 32,000 women who were captured as "war booty" (pun intended) would EVER willingly "marry" and have sex with the soldiers who murdered every person they ever loved. If you can't see this, then you know nothing of reality.

    They would have had no problem "surviving" if the Israelites had not murdered every person they ever loved. Your justification of the atrocities in the Bible only proves yet again how your religion corrupts both the minds and the morals of those who adhere to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Or do you want all the virgin girls to be killed? Those virgin girls have not committed any sexual sin unlike their parents or the Midianite men, women and even children. God wanted to preserve some of the seeds of the Midianites and merged them with the seeds of the Hebrews and the offsprings will become Israelites so that they will be considered as God's children. Such merger will result in a generation of less wicked people and following the better Hebrew customs instead of the Midianite's evil perverse customs.
    There you go again! Sex = Sin = Sex! Look what your religion has done to you.

    The baby boys hadn't committed any "sex sins" either, but they were slaughtered without mercy. Your logic is pathetic. You make God look like an idiot.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    !
    Because there is no rape. It doesn't follow the known behavior of a rapist; a rapist will just screw and go, screw and go. No rapist will wait one month for the grieving process to finish and follow customary marriage rites and declare the woman as his wife and him as his husband before screwing the woman. After that the Israelites will leave them as they were unlikely to survive through the wars so that could remarry again. The virgin girls were in fact willing partners as none bothered to resist the presumed "rape" or commit suicide or run away. I repeat NONE.


    Or do you want all the virgin girls to be killed? Those virgin girls have not committed any sexual sin unlike their parents or the Midianite men, women and even children. God wanted to preserve some of the seeds of the Midianites and merged them with the seeds of the Hebrews and the offsprings will become Israelites so that they will be considered as God's children. Such merger will result in a generation of less wicked people and following the better Hebrew customs instead of the Midianite's evil perverse customs.


    God Bless His people.
    None of what you say changes the fact that anytime a woman is forced to partake in a sexual relationship against her will it is considered rape (even in marriage). It doesn't matter that men make up rules whereby they claim women as their property and do with them as they wish, women are still equal human beings with rights, and if they are taken for wives without their approval then it is rape. Just because a man (like you) says it's not rape matters not, you can give all the reasons in the world to try and justify rape, but in the end all that really matters is whether or not the women had a choice in the matter.


    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

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    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

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  3. #13
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    None of what you say changes the fact that anytime a woman is forced to partake in a sexual relationship against her will it is considered rape (even in marriage). It doesn't matter that men make up rules whereby they claim women as their property and do with them as they wish, women are still equal human beings with rights, and if they are taken for wives without their approval then it is rape. Just because a man (like you) says it's not rape matters not, you can give all the reasons in the world to try and justify rape, but in the end all that really matters is whether or not the women had a choice in the matter.
    The virgin girls were willing partners as none, I repeat NONE resisted the presumed rape as there were no mention of resistance, suicide and running away. They seemed so compliant. Will a judge declare rape when the sexual partners are conscious and willing and there are no signs of resistance or violence against sex?

    God Bless.
    Last edited by CWH; 08-07-2012 at 08:17 PM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post

    The virgin girls were willing partners as none, I repeat NONE resisted the presumed rape as there were no mention of resistance, suicide and running away. They seemed so compliant. Will a judge declare rape when the sexual partners are conscious and willing and there are no signs of resistance or violence against sex?

    God Bless.
    What in the world are you talking about? There is not one word mentioned about the 32,000 virgin girls being willing, or not...absolutely nothing is said in the text except that Moses orders by God's command the killing of every man, woman and child except the virgin girls which are to be kept alive for the soldiers.

    Num.31:17-18 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.


    How can you say they seem so compliant when there is not one word said about them? I hate to say this Cheow, but you sound like a "woman hater" who seems to think it's okay to rape women. What is wrong with you? Anytime a sexual relationship is forced on a woman whether it be in a marriage or not it is rape. Women have rights over their own bodies, men don't own women's bodies and have no automatic right to have sex without the consent of the woman.


    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
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  5. #15
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    What in the world are you talking about? There is not one word mentioned about the 32,000 virgin girls being willing, or not...absolutely nothing is said in the text except that Moses orders by God's command the killing of every man, woman and child except the virgin girls which are to be kept alive for the soldiers.

    Num.31:17-18 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
    Neither is there a word mentioned about forcing and raping in the passage. "Keep alive for yourself" does not mean rape. The main reason to me why every men and women and children were killed except for the virgin women were because they were defiled by sexual means. Moab is in the region of Sodom and Gommorah and I think the Moabites were influenced or were the descendants of the evil and perverse people of Sodom and Gommorah with their perverse and sexual sins and culture. The children born were likely from perverse sexual intercourse such as through temple prostitutes, adulteries, fornications, incests etc. There were of course other sin such as praying to idols and child sacrifices which I believe the mature women and children also participated.


    How can you say they seem so compliant when there is not one word said about them? I hate to say this Cheow, but you sound like a "woman hater" who seems to think it's okay to rape women. What is wrong with you? Anytime a sexual relationship is forced on a woman whether it be in a marriage or not it is rape. Women have rights over their own bodies, men don't own women's bodies and have no automatic right to have sex without the consent of the woman.
    I hate to say this Rose, you seem to us (not only me) in this forum to be a bitter woman who hated men. I do understand that you claimed to be ill-treated by your first husband and please forgive me if I am wrong a rape victim. I have asked that sensitive question that remains unanswered and I will apologized if I am wrong. That is probably why you are strongly against and jumpy over male superiority over women and rape. I have said before and you are not accepting it that to get rid of rape is to get rid of lust first. Temptations to lust is everywhere....pornography, nudity, prostituition, adulteries, promiscuities, homosexualities, molests and even looking at pretty scantily clad women and men etc. which is why it is impossible to get rid of lust humanly. Lust after the flesh(male and female as well) and lust for power are the main reasons why people rape. Instead of fighting for women's right (which I do support) and against rape it is far better to fight against LUST which is the cause of the rapes and the perceived male "superiority" over women.

    May God Bless Us.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    What in the world are you talking about? There is not one word mentioned about the 32,000 virgin girls being willing, or not...absolutely nothing is said in the text except that Moses orders by God's command the killing of every man, woman and child except the virgin girls which are to be kept alive for the soldiers.

    Num.31:17-18 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

    One fine explanation by Rabbi Ginsburgh:

    http://www.rabbiginsburgh.com/



    Constructing kingdom from nothing
    Jul 19th, 2012 by admin

    Constructing the kingdom of Israel

    Following the incident in which Pinchas avenged God’s Name by swiftly killing Zimri and the Midianite princess who seduced him, God told Moses to take revenge on the Midianite nation for sending their daughters to seduce the Jewish men. Pinchas was chosen to lead the Jewish army to war and he returned victorious after killing all the adult males. The Jewish army returned with the war booty, including all the women and children and they brought them before Moses. But when Moses saw that they had taken the adult women into captivity, he rebuked the soldiers, because these very women had been the instruments of seduction that caused the plague in which so many Jews had died. The only captives to be kept alive were the “the baby women,” i.e. females under three years old, who were not yet capable of having marital relations.

    The numerical value of the phrase “the baby women” (הַטַּף בַּנָּשִׁים) is 496, which is also the gematria of the word “kingdom” (מַלְכוּת), referring to the feminine sefirah of kingdom. The Arizal[1] explains that the sefirah of kingdom is constructed out of judgments (gevurot), the same judgments whose pristine state is symbolized by the baby women of Midian

    The Zohar[2] describes how in order to be rectified and compassionate, female judgments need to be sweetened by reconstructing them with male loving-kindness. A woman who marries a Jew connects to his innate attribute of compassion and loving-kindness and her judgment is thus sweetened. This was the reason why only the baby girls who could not have had any interaction with non-Jewish males were spared.

    The Zohar teaches us that kingdom can either be constructed from judgment and might, or from loving-kindness. Although we could understand this to mean that a government can either rule by force or with compassion, this case of the Midianite girls teaches us that kingdom being constructed from might actually means that the feminine judgments must be taken captive while still in their pure state of being, before they are even capable of marital relations. A woman who marries a Jewish male (whether she is a Jew from birth or a convert) is affected by his innate attribute of loving-kindness and her judgments are sweetened; likewise for these young Midianite girls. Once they had converted they could marry a Jewish man, as the Or Hachayim explains.[3] In this way, all their harsh judgments are sweetened at their source. It is specifically the sweetened state of the Midianite chaotic and unruly judgments that is needed to construct the redemptive and rectified society we yearn for in thekingdom of Mashiach.

    Constructing the kingdom of my soul

    Translating this idea into the psychological realm, we can understand that once we are victorious in our battle against the evil powers of the soul that wish to seduce us away from serving the Almighty, we must take captive the “baby girl” inside us (this is true for men and women alike). The “baby girl” represents the primal and pristine state of nothingness that is the raw material of pure judgment. Once we have returned to this formless state of judgment, our innate Jewish quality of kindness comes to the fore and forms the raw material into an ability to contribute with loving-kindness to our community.

    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ................................................

    [1] Eitz Chaim sha’ar 34. Ta’amei hamitzvot, Beha’alotcha.

    [2] Zohar Chadash, Matot.

    [3] Or Hachayim, Matot, on the phrase “Let them live for you.”



  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Neither is there a word mentioned about forcing and raping in the passage. "Keep alive for yourself" does not mean rape. The main reason to me why every men and women and children were killed except for the virgin women were because they were defiled by sexual means. Moab is in the region of Sodom and Gommorah and I think the Moabites were influenced or were the descendants of the evil and perverse people of Sodom and Gommorah with their perverse and sexual sins and culture. The children born were likely from perverse sexual intercourse such as through temple prostitutes, adulteries, fornications, incests etc. There were of course other sin such as praying to idols and child sacrifices which I believe the mature women and children also participated.
    Your logic is very flawed. The passage says: " that have not known a man by lying with him,keep alive for yourselves.", these girls are being defined by the fact that they have not slept with a man which is the only kind of female a man could keep for himself. Your logic also does not explain why the baby boys were killed, they were not sexually defiled and could have been kept as male slaves just like you say the girls were.

    The one glaring fact remains that no one can explain away, is that ONLY the girls who had not slept with a man were kept alive, and given specifically to the male soldiers, not to the Hebrew families as slaves...only willful blindness keeps you from acknowledging that. Also, there is the account in Judges 21, where the male soldiers were specifically sent to Jabesh-Gilead to get wives by killing all the inhabitants except the virgin girls...then when there wasn't enough virgin girls to meet their needs they when to Shiloh and kidnapped more virgin girls. Usually when someone is kidnapped it's AGAINST their will! It's time to take the blinders off Cheow!



    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    I hate to say this Rose, you seem to us (not only me) in this forum to be a bitter woman who hated men. I do understand that you claimed to be ill-treated by your first husband and please forgive me if I am wrong a rape victim. I have asked that sensitive question that remains unanswered and I will apologized if I am wrong. That is probably why you are strongly against and jumpy over male superiority over women and rape. I have said before and you are not accepting it that to get rid of rape is to get rid of lust first. Temptations to lust is everywhere....pornography, nudity, prostituition, adulteries, promiscuities, homosexualities, molests and even looking at pretty scantily clad women and men etc. which is why it is impossible to get rid of lust humanly. Lust after the flesh(male and female as well) and lust for power are the main reasons why people rape. Instead of fighting for women's right (which I do support) and against rape it is far better to fight against LUST which is the cause of the rapes and the perceived male "superiority" over women.

    May God Bless Us.
    Yes, I do hate men who rape women, and I'm willing to stand up and speak out against it wherever it is found...even in the Bible. What you call bitter is nothing more than me standing up for equal human rights and speaking the truth. No, I am not a rape victim, but I am human and know that anytime sexual relations are forced upon a woman against her will it is considered rape. Even in a marriage, every human being has the right to say what is done to their own bodies and whether or not they want to have sexual relations with another person. Unlike what the Bible teaches, when a woman gets married she is not owned by the man. Women's rights (including sexual rights) are human rights, and it's about time men like you realize that.

    The only way human rights violations will stop is when men of all political and religious persuasions start speaking out against rape, war, and violence of all kinds; even when it's found in the pages of their "holy books"!

    Take care,
    Rose


    Rose
    Last edited by Rose; 08-08-2012 at 10:18 AM.
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    The passage says: " that have not known a man by lying with him,[COLOR=#000000]keep alive for yourselves.",
    It says:
    "and all the baby women that have not known a man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves.",

  9. #19
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    The Virgins of Jabesh-gilead and Shiloh

    All the lame reasons that have been introduced in this thread to try and justify the taking of the 32,000 virgins for purposes other than "sex" can be shown invalid by connecting a linguistically parallel passage in Judges 21. The term "that hath known man by lying with him" is unique to Num.31:17 and Judges 21:12, giving great insight into the motives behind taking and keeping only the virgins and slaughtering everyone else.

    Yahweh commanded the Hebrew’s to slaughter all the men, women and children in a city called Jabesh-Gilead, EXCEPT the virgins for the sole purpose of giving them to the men as wives. In this case the ONLY reason for utterly destroying the inhabitants of Jabesh-Gilead was because the Benjamites needed wives. The reason the Benjamites needed wives is because all of their tribe had been killed by the other Hebrew tribes in a previous conflict, except for 600 men who hid in the mountains, thus escaping death. Also earlier in the story the Bible tells us that all the tribes of Israel had sworn to not give of their daughters to the tribe of Benjamin for wives, because they had cut off the tribe of Benjamin, so the only tribal members who had not sworn the oath were the inhabitants of Jabesh-Gilead…and guess what? They got chosen to be the ones to furnish the Benjamites with wives at the expense of their own lives.

    But, a problem arises when only 400 virgins are captured at the slaughter of Jabesh-Gilead, and the Benjamites needed 600 women for wives, so then they were commanded to go kidnap 200 more virgins from Shiloh; all of this of course was under the direct command from Yahweh. I’m not sure why at first it’s said that they can only take wives from Jabesh-Gilead, because they had not sworn an oath, but then when they didn’t have enough there it was okay to take virgins from another place called Shiloh?


    Judge 21:10-12 And the congregation sent thither twelve thousand men of the valiantest, and commanded them, saying, Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead with the edge of the sword, with the women and the children. And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man. And they found among the inhabitants of Jabesh-Gilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan…..14) And Benjamin came again at that time; and they gave them wives which they had saved alive of the women of Jabesh-Gilead: and yet so they sufficed them not….20) Therefore they commanded the children of Benjamin, saying, Go and lie in wait in the vineyards; And see, and, behold, if the daughters of Shiloh come out to dance in dances, then come ye out of the vineyards, and catch (chataph) you every man his wife of the daughters of Shiloh, and go to the land of Benjamin.

    Num.31:17-18 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

    This story is a perfect example of how men in biblical times saw nothing wrong with taking the women they wanted, because women were considered property! No mention is ever made of women’s rights, only the fact that if men wanted women they were free to take them by any means necessary (with Yahweh's approval) which included killing off whole cities to take their women. If nothing else, these stories show the Bible to be a perfect reflection of how men viewed women in ancient cultures, including of course the teachings of Paul in the New Testament, which sadly continues into modern times.


    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    This story is a perfect example of how men in biblical times saw nothing wrong with taking the women they wanted, because women were considered property! No mention is ever made of women’s rights, only the fact that if men wanted women they were free to take them by any means necessary (with Yahweh's approval) which included killing off whole cities to take their women. If nothing else, these stories show the Bible to be a perfect reflection of how men viewed women in ancient cultures, including of course the teachings of Paul in the New Testament, which sadly continues into modern times.


    Rose
    How then could Pinchas (Phinehas) be rght in killing both the Israelite man and Midianite princess?

    Numbers 25:8,
    He went after the Israelite man into the chamber and drove [it through] both of them; the Israelite man, and the woman through her stomach, and the plague ceased from the children of Israel.

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