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  1. #21
    some girls was whispering with each other, looking to the other street side, where the slatterns poses for the pimps :
    "go in humble sister, she is always possible" one of them laughs and sings like slatterns from the other side did:
    "hit me baby one more time"
    that is luxury for the spirit, helpful for the soul after dusk, when the lightning city awakes and your are a black sister of mercy dissing the crime of man.
    the girls show is double and filled with mild taunt, but the are armed with black magic of owls after dusk. ...

    have fun and g-d bless america

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Richard

    I think a correction is in order.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough
    ]It was SCIENCE that invented antibiotics, refrigerators, electricity, and everything else that has made life on this planet a million times better than when foolish people trusted in a God who wasn't there.
    Science and technology are responsible for producing items like refrigerators that run off electricity (and gas). Science did not invent electricity. Science might have discovered what electricity is comprised of and the laws that govern electricity. Electricity is the conductance of electrons. What is lightening? Lightening is part of the natural elements and is produced naturally in thunderstorms. Lightening is the conductance of static charge (produced in the clouds) to ground. It is the same conductance that takes place in metal wires. Science has discovered how to generate electricity; science did not invent electricity.
    Hey there David,

    Of course science did not "invent" electricity. That's a pretty big "duh". Your comment is absurdly pedantic.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    It is not foolish to trust in God. According to God's word, the fool is the one who says; "there is no God". Foolishness is to think like the fool. It would be "foolish" for a fool to trust in a God, which they say does not exist.
    Nothing could be more foolish than to "trust" in someone that has proven to be absolutely untrustworthy. This is the one thing that all people know to be true about God - he cannot be TRUSTED to do anything for anyone. People are proven trustworthy every day. I trust the people who cook my food in a restaurant. I trust my doctor, my dentist, and my banker. Even my newspaper boy, who is only 98% reliable, is infinitely more trustworthy than the God of the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Statistically, while what you say is true for millions upon millions, in the same way as "few are chosen", the same "few" are the ones who can be found as examples of God answering prayer and have personal reason to trust in God. I can trust in God purely from seeing God's promises and prophecies being fulfilled and that gives me trust for all the other things that God has promised to be fulfilled in the future. Because you cannot see the same as I do, does not mean that you are right. Only time will tell. We can all be blind when we want to be.
    Ha! What a freaking joke! First, we are not talking about God being "trustworthy" to fulfill some "prophecies" that different believers can't even agree about. We are talking about whether anyone can trust God to answer any prayers like "please heal my sick son" or "please save my daughter from being raped". The Bible constantly exhorts people to "trust God" and pray and trust that he will intervene, but everyone knows that he cannot be TRUSTED to answer. This is an absolute incontrovertible fact that no person can deny. God cannot be actually TRUSTED to do anything for anyone in any given situation.

    Second, there are no "fulfilled prophecies." I proved you wrong a year ago and you ran away because I proved it and you could not support your argument. Your constant assertion that there are "fulfilled prophecies" is totally delusional, just like Hugh Ross who claimed that there are "about 2000 prophecies that have been fulfilled to the letter" when in fact that is not one! He's a total lunatic. I proved this in my article Two Thousand Reasons to Believe that Hugh Ross Might Not Be Entirely Credible. I invite you to try to refute it. Maybe then you will finally realize the absurdity of your constant claim that fulfilled prophecies prove the Bible. Of course, that claim is absurd also because even if there were a few fulfilled prophecies here or there in the Bible, it wouldn't prove that the whole Bible, or the version you prefer, is the Word of God. I've explained all this a hundred times to you and you have never responded with any understanding.

    Nothing could be more FOOLISH than to trust a God who has established absolutely that he is utterly and absolutely UNTRUSTWORTHY.


    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I think we have to approach the Bible afresh and forget all the rubbish that has been spoken for the last few centuries and is continuing to be spoken by evangelical Christians or the like. Difficult as it might be to dismiss things which are burned into our mind, nevertheless, there are those who are waking up to the truth that is contained in the Bible and not believing what has been taught my mainstream Christendom for years going back to the time of Constantine.
    Hey there David,

    I agree - let's toss out the rubbish taught by "evangelical Christians". The best place to start would be to toss out their ludicrous dogma that the Bible can be trusted as the "Word of God". And of course we would want to toss out the silly doctrine that "Jesus saves" and that we should have "faith in God." It sound like a great plan to me!

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    We all claim to understand the plain and simple things written in the Bible, yet we accuse each other of error in understanding the simple things.
    And why is that? We don't see similar irrational disagreements about the fundamentals in other studies like math or chemistry. But we do see a very similar problem is philosophy because philosophy is a matter of opinion and there is no way to prove who is right or wrong. Religion is like philosophy only worse because it is based on fundamentally fallacious presuppositions like "the Quran is the Word of God and Muhammad is his prophet."

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    When I said "no" to the question; can God's power be given to someone else, that is born out by the fact that not even Jesus could do anything of himself. Jesus had access to God's power by asking God. He thanked God in advance for the power that was made available to him. Anything Jesus spoke, God was prepared to do (even an idle word) and so the power of Jesus to perform miracles was actually God performing them.
    Well, Jesus is quoted as saying "All power is GIVEN' unto me."

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    The Bible has everything we need to know which is essential to have a peaceful life and for salvation.
    Why would anyone say that? It doesn't seem true at all. From what I've seen, the Bible teaches people how to be miserable and live lives of falsehood and delusion. And you apparently agree, because you think that the vast majority of Christians who have ever lived have been totally deluded, believing gross blasphemous falsehoods like "Jesus is God" and "angels can sin".

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    The ancient Jewish scriptures contained the Gospel message which was preached to Abraham (Gal 3:8). The test for me is; does any other literature agree with God's word as recorded in the ancient Jewish scriptures?
    Why would that be a test? Why do you make the "ancient Jewish scriptures" the standard. And the fact that the NT says something doesn't mean it is true. You comment is a textbook example of the logical fallacy known as Begging the Question. You are assuming that which you think you are proving.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    If the Tao was inspired by God for a purpose, I think God would have made known the purpose.
    The word "Tao" means "The Way." It is not a book that is inspired. It is supposed to be a description of reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Wise as these works are, if not caused by the inspiration of God, then they are the works of man.
    The Bible is obviously the "works of man." There are different versions, so you must trust MEN to tell you which version, if any, is supposed to be "inspired." You know that there is absolutely no way for you to prove that Revelation of Philemon or any other book of the Bible is "inspired." So we all can see that you are just blowing smoke - you have now foundation for you most fundamental beliefs. How are you different than a Muslim or Mormon or "evangelical Christian"? You never answer this question. You constantly repeat the dogmas of your religion that you have learned by the "works of men" but you never deal with the fact that your religion is indistinguishable from all the other religions that you reject. Why can't you see this? Nothing could be more obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    That is what we have to decide. I am convinced the Bible is divinely inspired,
    Why? What "convinces" you? It can't be "fulfilled prophecies" because there aren't any. And even if there were, they would not justify one version over another. And it wouldn't even justify believing all the books are inspired since most books don't have anything to do with any prophecy. Why don't you understand this?

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    God is ONE and there is none else. This is what the Bible teaches and so any other works of literature, which if inspired, can only come from the one God. Therefore, we have to see harmony in all these sources, if the sources have their origin in God.
    As I've already explained a million times, one man's "harmony" is another man's absurdity, so the concept of "harmony" proves nothing. The problem is that folks can force a false "harmony" by merely twisting words and playing with logic. And if my experience with you is any indication, this is what the "harmony" of your interpretations amounts to. I can't even find agreement with you on the most basic elements of logic, such as the Law of Non-Contradiction or the meaning of logical implications like P IMPLIES Q (which is logically equivalent to IF P THEN Q). This is why the conversations his a dead end. The only way you can protect your religious beliefs is to deny all logic.

    Despite our many disagreements, I admire your perseverance. I just wish you would seek the GROUND OF REALITY which is based on propositions which all rational people necessarily agree upon, such as "IF P THEN Q" is logically identical to "P IMPLIES Q."

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  4. #24
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    The Devil is in the Details!

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Hey there Mystykal,

    Yesterday was rather hot, and the ride was long, so I found myself too tired to answer. But after a good night's sleep and a pleasant swim in our pool, I'm feeling refreshed.

    I'm not sure you know enough about my position to say that you were "once in my boat." I doubt that could be true, because if you ever had been in my "boat" you would not give the answers you are giving. I get the impression you don't really understand my position at all. But that's OK - we are here to learn from each other.

    Your beliefs are fascinating because it looks like you have invented (or adopted) a kind of "fundamentalist mysticism" that says my soul will be "eternally lost" if I do not find the "Spiritual Truth" that you have come to believe. It doesn't sound much different than Christian fundamentalism which says I will be "eternally lost" if I don't believe in Jesus and "get saved".

    Where did you get the idea that the "Great Mystery Spirit" is going to reject and annihilate me if I don't achieve knowledge of the "Spiritual Truth" you believe in? To me, that sounds like all the religions that say "You must believe my dogma or you will not get eternal life". It sounds just like fundamentalist Christianity. It sounds like anything but the "Truth".

    Your idea that YOUR DOGMAS are the UNIVERSAL TRUTH sounds like typical religious fundamentalism. There never has been any group of people, let alone "wisdomkeepers", who all taught the same thing. The only way you could come to that conclusion is if you defined a "wisdomkeeper" as someone who agreed with you and your beliefs! It looks like you are confusing you own ideas with the teachings of some imaginary "wisdomkeepers."

    Who are these "wisdomkeepers"? Do they have names? Have they written any books? How do you discern a "wisdomkeeper" from other writers?

    I'll let this post stand on its own, since I'd like an answer to these specific questions. I'll answer your other comments in another post.

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    Hi Richard:
    Where do I begin? You assume alot about me! I really thought that much of what you said was written as a joke... then I realized you were serious. The issue with you is that you are so intelligent that you assume alot of things about where people are coming from and then act like you did not do that. You want proof from things which may exist in reality but since there are religious in nature - you know they cannot be scientifically proven so you disregard them. Like you total disregard of the miracles in the Bible. You keep going back to the Koran as an example of falsehood and then assert that the GOD of the Bible including Jesus is FAKE! Well, that kind of makes all of your other argumanets pointless since you have already thrown out the divine authority Jews and Christians BELIEVE is the reality of their Bibles. Now, if all SPIRITUALITY is false - then why discuss any of it. I thought the reason for talking about something was to find the "truth" in it. "In the sameness you find the truth."
    Now that doesn't mean that it is "good" truth or a truth which is benificial - it just means we can catergarize things and ideas into groups based on similarities. Ok.

    The masters and mystics I talk about I do not see as "right" because I believe in their writings or sayings... I see them as oracles for the wisdom which comes from "GOD" - or the higher self awareness. We consider education to give us self - awareness and that is the first step in the process of understanding what we term "the mind of GOD". So your assertion that I "like these certain mystics" is false. It's not about like. It's about windows and doors to the other side... That place you think does not exist!

    YOU Said, "Your beliefs are fascinating because it looks like you have invented (or adopted) a kind of "fundamentalist mysticism" that says my soul will be "eternally lost" if I do not find the "Spiritual Truth" that you have come to believe. It doesn't sound much different than Christian fundamentalism which says I will be "eternally lost" if I don't believe in Jesus and "get saved".

    First of all, I did not say anything about your soul ... The Bible does not teach that a soul exists! Like Buddha's notion of transient properties of the soul, the "soul" is a complex notion which does not exist without a physical body...Hence Job's statement about "after worms destroy my body, Yet in my FLESH shall I see GOD." Job 19:26 That's not a Fundamentalist concept! That is what the Word of GOD says. So the idea of Michael coming back for the BODY of Moses is consistant with this idea of "no soul" with out a human body.(Jude 1:9) Another reason why the Egyptians mummified everythig going over to the next life. They got it wrong only in the sense of timing! So that Fundalmentalist "Christians" have so screwed up the basic concepts of the Bible that I do not consider them really Christan anymore than I consider a Muslim to be Jewish! Although their dietary rules are quite the same!
    So do not keep throwing me into a fundamentalist's camp mentality. The truth which saves is not "MY VERSION" of the truth - it is the truth PERIOD! If I have found it then LUCKY ME! And if I am self delusional then.... I have no immortality! But for you to dismiss all SPIRITUALITY as quackery is quite foolish - considering that all ideas which come from the "mind of GOD" hold that one thing in common! man-made or not the only way to obtain immortality is through a "Spiritual connection" to the other side. This is NOT some idea I made up! This is the conclusion of those who have experienced the other side. The right or wrong in something is pure comparison to another standard.

    YOU Said, "Your idea that YOUR DOGMAS are the UNIVERSAL TRUTH sounds like typical religious fundamentalism. There never has been any group of people, let alone "wisdomkeepers", who all taught the same thing."
    True enough... Yet their message tone and quiet ways are the same. Their words convey a truth about nature and revelation alike - testify to the love of GOD... This is their message. It is the same. Only the words and the faces change!. The test of a true seer/spiritual leader/messenger of GOD is in the way they receive their messages.

    YOU Said, "Who are these "wisdomkeepers"? Do they have names? Have they written any books? How do you discern a "wisdomkeeper" from other writers? (Black Elk. Ruby Modesto. Marie McIntosh-Hopkins
    Their experiences are "other - worldly" and they have had the Spiritual awakening which is present in all cultures)

    If the true GOD aka Mystery Spirit, says this is the way, walk ye in it!" then a person should heed the message and follow the pattern set out from the beginning of time. The meditative process is NOT up for debate! It is the ONLY way to experience the Spiritual side of life. Take it or leave it! Life is about choices. Life is NOT about doubting any and everything. Questions are fine! But doubt is NOT healthy. It leads to great mental disturbances and chaos. The yuwipi ceremony teaches us that! The Native American culture had a Creator GOD Spirit long before the White man and his "Christian" GOD came to this land. The old ways are still the paths by which the Great Mystery Spirit touches our lives and gives us hope and faith in the future.

    Namaste,

    Mystykal

    tbc
    Last edited by Mystykal; 08-18-2013 at 09:03 PM.

  5. #25
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    Hello Richard
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Hey there David,

    I agree - let's toss out the rubbish taught by "evangelical Christians". The best place to start would be to toss out their ludicrous dogma that the Bible can be trusted as the "Word of God". And of course we would want to toss out the silly doctrine that "Jesus saves" and that we should have "faith in God." It sound like a great plan to me!
    . Banner headings like "Jesus saves" and "born again" can be dropped and in their place a proper understanding of Jesus as saviour should be understood and the phrase "born again" which is used by Jesus in one passage and repeated once in Peter's letter again must be correctly understood. Let's face it, as I heard recently when a set of Christians in America were asked some basic questions based on the Bible the results were astoundingly bad. Many so called Christians do not have a clue. It is like they have never read the Bible. I am in agreement with you about condemning many Christians, God will condemn them. We have the teaching of Jesus; (Matt 7:22) 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. That alone should make any Christian think "does Jesus mean me?" We have to examine ourselves and see how we measure up to the example set by Jesus. That is the measure by which God will judge everyone who is eligilble for judgement.


    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    And why is that? We don't see similar irrational disagreements about the fundamentals in other studies like math or chemistry. But we do see a very similar problem is philosophy because philosophy is a matter of opinion and there is no way to prove who is right or wrong. Religion is like philosophy only worse because it is based on fundamentally fallacious presuppositions like "the Quran is the Word of God and Muhammad is his prophet."
    I agree and God's word has already summed up subjects like philosophy and theology; (Colossians 2:8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. and (2 Tim 3:5) Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Cor 3:19) For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. 21 Therefore let no man glory in men.


    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Well, Jesus is quoted as saying "All power is GIVEN' unto me."
    That has to be correctly understood and balanced with the other sayings of Jesus. For example (John 14:10); but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. The raising of Lazarus gives us an insight into the working relationship that Jesus had with God; (John 11:41)And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. 42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Why would anyone say that? It doesn't seem true at all. From what I've seen, the Bible teaches people how to be miserable and live lives of falsehood and delusion. And you apparently agree, because you think that the vast majority of Christians who have ever lived have been totally deluded, believing gross blasphemous falsehoods like "Jesus is God" and "angels can sin".
    The Bible does not teach people to lead miserable lives, it teaches the opposite. What the Bible teaches and what people do are the opposite. It is like when the Israelites agreed to do all that the LORD had commanded them and they they immediately did that which was an abomination to God. It is people who are two-minded and deceitful. You can present a one-sided view of the Bible and leave out the other side, and that is not being truthful. Just as well, I am here to present the opposite. God has presented us with a choice, and it is up to us to decide what choice to make; (Deut 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: The same applies to those who understand fully the message that comes from the Bible in which we are shown the lives of all types of person, good and bad and the requirements of God and the behaviour he expects of men and women. When summed up, that is the same choice we have as was given to Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Why would that be a test? Why do you make the "ancient Jewish scriptures" the standard. And the fact that the NT says something doesn't mean it is true. You comment is a textbook example of the logical fallacy known as Begging the Question. You are assuming that which you think you are proving.
    The ancient Hebrew scriptures are written with the divine stamp of authority. They contain the reported words of God. Moses for example was told to write things down very plainly. If you have a better standard, then what is it? What grounds do you put forward for making that claim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    The word "Tao" means "The Way." It is not a book that is inspired. It is supposed to be a description of reality.
    This sounds like the work of men. There must be something written about Tao to explain what it is. I could say the reality is as Daniel says; (Dan 4:17) to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, God's plan and purpose can be seen to be working out by the very things that have and are taking place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    The Bible is obviously the "works of man." There are different versions, so you must trust MEN to tell you which version, if any, is supposed to be "inspired." You know that there is absolutely no way for you to prove that Revelation of Philemon or any other book of the Bible is "inspired." So we all can see that you are just blowing smoke - you have now foundation for you most fundamental beliefs. How are you different than a Muslim or Mormon or "evangelical Christian"? You never answer this question. You constantly repeat the dogmas of your religion that you have learned by the "works of men" but you never deal with the fact that your religion is indistinguishable from all the other religions that you reject. Why can't you see this? Nothing could be more obvious.
    Your use of the word trust is very loose. I do not trust any man. From the time that God's word was first written down under inspiration and revelation by God, then in the copying and translation of that word, men are involved and men are fallible and untrustworthy. For all the errors that have crept in to it, it is more accurate than many modern translations which have been written to support a particular view. Even the KJV has an element of bias though the intention was to have a translation of the Bible that the common person could read and which was not biassed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Why? What "convinces" you? It can't be "fulfilled prophecies" because there aren't any. And even if there were, they would not justify one version over another. And it wouldn't even justify believing all the books are inspired since most books don't have anything to do with any prophecy. Why don't you understand this?
    I understand how you rationalize against the word of God. The prophecies against Tyre and Babylon are two examples of prophecies that came true. There are many prophecies that I could cite, but you deny them all. The evidence is there yet a person can blind themselves to the evidence.


    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    As I've already explained a million times, one man's "harmony" is another man's absurdity, so the concept of "harmony" proves nothing. The problem is that folks can force a false "harmony" by merely twisting words and playing with logic. And if my experience with you is any indication, this is what the "harmony" of your interpretations amounts to. I can't even find agreement with you on the most basic elements of logic, such as the Law of Non-Contradiction or the meaning of logical implications like P IMPLIES Q (which is logically equivalent to IF P THEN Q). This is why the conversations his a dead end. The only way you can protect your religious beliefs is to deny all logic.
    Harmony can be found without "forcing". The problem is that the inaccuracies that have crept into the word of God can confound us. Putting aside things which do not make sense at first reading, there is plenty in the Bible that is harmonious. God is not the author of confusion. When we take positive statments like that, then anything which appears to be confusion at first reading, needs examination. Confusion is taken away by correctly knowing what the original Hebrew words are and what those words meant at the time they were penned. Errors can be found and eliminated and this is not "twisting" word. Finding a correct understanding is not "twisting". I know twisting goes on and that is what happens in modern translations of the Bible. We can say that translations of the Bible are the works or men, but the originally inspired words of God as written down by the scribes of what he prophets said, were not twisted words from the beginning. The Bible warns us against "lying words" and that is what we are faced with in the works of men.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Despite our many disagreements, I admire your perseverance. I just wish you would seek the GROUND OF REALITY which is based on propositions which all rational people necessarily agree upon, such as "IF P THEN Q" is logically identical to "P IMPLIES Q."
    I am seeking a ground of reality, that is why I want to debunk the myth and superstition that is mentioned in the Bible and that has been created around the Bible. Satan, the Devil, and the Serpent, I have tried to explain with a 21st century understanding. We can strip away the symbols and personification and see the reality. The enmity that is between God and man, God and the world, is all to do with the mind. That is why as Paul exhorts us; "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus" The mind of Jesus is not something you aspire to have and I try. That is one difference between us. If everyone simply obeyed the ten commandments there would be no conflict. The fact is that very few people aspire to live by those commandments. The rebellion of man to obey God is at the centre of all men's problems and the problems that are in the world. When you say, "there is no God" that leaves you on your own. Why should God do anything for you, when you take that attitude? You have hardened your heart against God and once a person's heart is hardened do we have a single example of someone softening their heart? That is why God has given up on people and classed them as reprobates. That is a very sad situation and that is reality. That is why "few" will be saved. God takes pleasure in the "few" and does not take pleasure in that so many refuse to accept him and his rules for living, which if followed are for the benefit of society and not to its detriment.

    I shall persist on presenting the opposite view to the one you present, when I can clearly see that what you say, is not what God's word means. I have left the conversation about Angels rest; there is no point repeating myself now that I have given all the explanations I can give and there are no more explanations to give. I do not agree with your formulation with the words you have used. I never disagreed with basic logic, the same as I would not disagree with basic mathematics. It all comes down to communication using words and unless we agree on the understanding of the words and the phrases we use, then we shall never come to agreement on anything. The same problem is at the heart of understanding God's word. It is not twisting words, to get to their correct meaning, if anything, it is untwisting the words that have been already twisted. I am not twisting (making wicked) words, I am undoing the wickedness that has been done to God's original word. I am reliant upon language scholars to make corrections when the errors are spotted. Do I trust what all scholars say? No!

    When faced with several choices of interpretation, what is wrong for selecting that which is in harmony with the whole? That is all I am doing. If I have made several wrong choices that on the face of it appear correct at first, then once that error is spotted, then that would force me to go back and make a different selection. It is back to our jigsaw puzzle. We are never going to fit every piece and as long as there are enough gaps, it is always possible for a piece to be fitted in the wrong place. With a normal jigsaw puzzle, the only way of knowing we have the pieces in the correct place is by comparing the picture that is being built up is with the picture printed on the box of the completed jigsaw puzzle. What has God stated for his purpose in creating the earth? That is the picture we are fitting the pieces into. The jigsaw is a picture like a chronology of man from the time of his creation to the time of establishment of God's kingdom in which there is no more sin/rebellion to God's way and all will be compliant with God's will.

    There is so much in the Bible that a lifetime's reading cannot search it all out. We are scratching the surface and the vast majority of Christians who have never read most of the Bible cannot appreciate what God is telling us. God's message to Israel is what we have to take to ourselves, since individually we can all be like Israel. This is why so much can be gleaned from every phrase and chapter in the Bible. Isaiah chapter 55 for example in which God says; (11) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. What is that saying to you? unless people have actually read these words and understood the implication and see how all of God's word is being accomplished, these words of God are lost to them. While certain verses are cherry picked, a lot of God's word goes unread. All the supporting verses are missed out. It is like seeing the stars and missing out all of the planets that do not shine brightly. We have to consider all, before we get a true picture of what God reveals to us through his inspired word. It is taking all of the verses into account, and seeing the harmony that is there that makes the Bible impossible to be a work of fiction and a work of man only. The Bible would be less coherent than it is (with the added errors) if it was a work of fiction. It is impossible for one mind human mind to conceive a work of fiction as complex as the Bible is without making great errors. It is even more impossible for independent people separated by space and time to create a combined work of fiction that would stand up. As long as you only consider the errors and do not accept valid corrections then you are bound to conclude the Bible is a fictional work. On the other hand, there is nothing wrong by taking the opposite view and accepting the Bible has a coherent and consistent message and then taking into consideration all the errors and making the true corrections. If that was not possible to do, I would have to agree with you, but since I have not come across anything which would lead me to think that my starting point was not the right place to start, then I remain true to the path I am taking. Man-made errors in transcription and translation are proof of man's involvement and fallibility, the errors are not proof for the non-existence of God.

    All the best
    David

  6. #26
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    What are you saying?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    You say that the "difference" is that the teachers you believe in are "real" whereas the others are "fakes". Great. I'd get the same answer from every member of every cult that has ever existed.

    Why in the world would you believe that the miracle stories are true? It's a lot easier to make up a story about someone walking on water than to actually do it. And we know such stories have often been made up. And worse, the Bible is filled with blatant mythology, like the story of creation. So logic says you should be skeptical. But you are not. Why is that? Do you also believe that Muhammad rode a horse to the moon? Do you believe that the Galactic Overlord Xenu flew all the souls to planet earth 75,000,000 years ago in a spaceship that looked exactly like a DC-8? Do you have any principles to discern truth from error?

    You are correct that I do not believe in the miracle stories of the Bible. And why not? For the same reason I don't believe in the miracle stories of the Quran and the Book of Mormon! There is no reason to believe them and good reasons to be skeptical. Simple as that. Why do you believe them? I doubt you can give a good reason that is logically consistent with your reasons for rejecting the mythology of other religions. It seems like you glory in gullibility and are highly skeptical about things that are scientifically well established. It seems upside down and backwards to me.


    Yes, the word used in that verse can refer to either moral or natural evil, so you can choose which meaning you want to believe applies in this case. Of course, it is the same word used in Gen 2:7 concerning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, so the moral aspect weighs heavily. The context of the verse is all about how God alone is SOVEREIGN OVER ALL - it segues into the classic passage about how people are like CLAY in the hands of God the potter:
    Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
    Paul quotes this passage in Romans 9, the most famous passage that speaks of GOD'S ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGNTY and how he creates evil people to use for his glory:
    Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 ¶ Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
    This is how God's sovereignty has been understood by many of the leading "wisdomkeepers" of the Christian tradition, so it's arrogant for you to simply dismiss it as "nonsense". Whatever you think of Christian tradition, the same people who have passed down the Bible have interpreted things differently than you.

    As an aside: This connection between Isaiah Chapter 45 and Bible Book 45 (Romans) is one of the more striking examples of the Isaiah Bible Correlation.

    Your comments are a perfect example of why no one could ever hope to find "truth" in the Bible. The conclusions depend upon the presuppositions and there is no way for anyone to test which is right and who is wrong. You are committed to your doctrine that God only does things that are "good" so you will find a way to force the words of the Bible to fit that doctrine. Others are committed to the doctrine that God is absolutely sovereign, and so they will force the words of the Bible to fit that doctrine. The words of the Bible are nothing but putty in the hands of such interpreters who BEGIN with a doctrine that they are committed to.

    It's also interesting that you simply assume that the idea of "free will" is meaningful and relevant. Well, here's a news flash: philosophers have been twisting around that pole for two thousand years and they've never come to any consensus, so it is absurd for you to simply assert that you have all the answers that the greatest minds in history have failed to find.


    You comment makes no sense to me. If you admit that "all things were credited to GOD" (which is the root of the idea of God's absolute sovereignty) why do you now deny that he created moral evil? My comment that "You diminish God when you say that anything could ORIGINATE outside of him" stands. Merely shouting at me and throwing my words back in my face is not a meaningful response.

    I am not the one playing with the words of the Bible. I have said nothing that isn't common knowledge amongst all competent scholars.


    Talk about confusing terms! All words are "man-made" so any statement of "Truth" is man-made. It appears you are saying that "Truth" cannot be stated in words. If that's the case, then you have totally confused everything.

    It is a little premature for you to be making blanket assertions about my lack of understanding Biblical "writing styles" since you have not shown any error in anything I have written. You need to show an actual error in something I've written, not merely claim that you are right.

    I am not "messing with you." I have only been pointing out a few of the primary themes that the "Christian wisdomkeepers" have emphasized over the last two thousand years.


    Yes, there it is again. You reject the commonsense explanations (which are far and away the most likely) and go running after silly superstitions that are almost certainly false. This is why it is so ironic when you speak of "TRUTH" - everything you write is strongly biased towards things that are almost certainly false. Wow.

    You say that "FAITH" is the way. Great. FAITH = GULLIBILITY. By your doctrine, only the stupid and ignorant make it to the other side. Scientologists, Muslims, Mormons, JWs, and every kind of mindless cult from the dawn of time is on your side. You say all anyone needs is FAITH IN THE TOOTH FAIRY??? Is that really what you are teaching? Of course not. You are saying that I must have "faith" in what is "true". But how do we know what is true? That brings us back to the necessity of skepticism.


    Your comments seem very confused. You seem to be making a distinction between the "words" vs. the "ideas" of the Bible. But you don't really do that at all. You are constantly referring to the IDEAS that are expressed in the WORDS of the Bible.

    It seems absurd to suggest a total disjunction between the words and the ideas of the Bible since the ideas are expressed in words. The reason the Bible Wheel and the the Holographs impressed me was because their structure coheres with the meaning of the plain text. The words had MEANING. It is absurd to suggest that the words don't have meaning whereas structural patterns made of those words do. Your ideas make no sense since we both know that you are using the MEANING OF THE WORDS when you speak of Jesus walking on water, the fiery chariot, and all that. So you are being inconsistent. The words are perfectly meaningful when you like the meaning, but you just toss them out and ignore them when you don't - as with the crap and the sexism.


    False dichotomy. The universe could have been created and then it could have evolved.

    And it is utterly meaningless to speak of "GOD" as either "real or just a fake" because the term is not well defined at all! Do you mean the theistic style personal god who runs around "doing things" like any other bit player in the Cosmic Drama? Do you mean nothing but "Cosmic Consciousness"? Do you mean a being that is like a person, and who loves and hates and throws people in hell? Do you mean Allah, Apollo, Yahweh, or Zeus? Your comment is meaningless as it stands because the word "God" is not well defined at all.

    And then you say that the "truth" is present in the world or it does not exist." That's nuts, given that any statement of "truth" is a man-made thing, including the whole Bible, but you say the Bible is inspired, but that words don't have truth rather the "ideas" contained in number patterns.... it's too much confusion. You need to slow down and say something that you really mean after you have given it some serious thought. Your comment are wild and undisciplined and difficult to discuss.

    And in your final quote from the Bible, you exemplify the fundamentally sexist nature of the Bible. We have the MALE GOD, THE FATHER and HIS MALE SON JESUS. Is that really how you conceive of GOD?? AS MALE? TOTALLY MALE?

    If "faith" is what unlocks the Heavens mysteries, then heavens mysteries are the stuff of mythology, superstitions, and ignorance.

    Funny thing is - life began to get good on planet earth when folks finally learned that FAITH was the fast track to the grave. As long as people had FAITH in God to save them, they died miserable early deaths from easily prevented diseases.

    SCIENCE has saved millions that GOD was happy to let die, no matter how much "Faith" they had and no matter how much they begged him to save them. It was SCIENCE that invented antibiotics, refrigerators, electricity, and everything else that has made life on this planet a million times better than when foolish people trusted in a God who wasn't there.

    I think the conversation would be better if we took one thing at a time. They bloat very quickly when there are too many rabbit trails.

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    Hi Richard:
    WOW! Thanks for taking the time to express yourself! I really enjoyed reading all your views on my comments. Of course we are in the weeds for sure now! But I enjoy the idea of taking on a challenge which is not a challenge! Something very Zen about it! Now I agree with you that we need to slow down and take all these ideas apart one at a time...

    YOU Said,"You say that the "difference" is that the teachers you believe in are "real" whereas the others are "fakes". Great. I'd get the same answer from every member of every cult that has ever existed.

    TRUE!... However, I think that martial arts is a great example of truth and no truth... Have you ever talked to over 100 martial art "masters"? I have! And have you ever looked at them and wondered if they were telling the truth? I have... And have you ever thought "All of them are just wack jobs!" I did once. Then I met a TRUE martial art master... NO I do not think like him... And no he is not religious like me... and no he is not a vegetarian like me! But his eyes tell a story... His style of martial arts is superb! And yet he is humble to a fault... He hides the real techniques from the masses who come to learn for no other reason than to learn to fight... And yet to the true seeker of the way of Bushido the door will be left ajar... To the true doshi (student) the mat will become the playground of all learning and discipline... When the student is ready the master appears! That is not my opinion! It is a fact of life...
    Martial arts are NOT a cult - but many of the common students view their master as a GOD! But in truth the master is only human - with skills verging on Spiritual perfection!...

    You act like everything in life is fake! Outside of the test tube of science you just discount all things as being unknown... well that's fine until you experience the true way of being a human... The spiritual side of life is NOT fake. Many do fake their connection to the Master... But when the true seeker finds the Master then everything changes...

    ================
    YOU Said. "Why in the world would you believe that the miracle stories are true? It's a lot easier to make up a story about someone walking on water than to actually do it. And we know such stories have often been made up. And worse, the Bible is filled with blatant mythology, like the story of creation. So logic says you should be skeptical. But you are not. Why is that?

    Then you connected the Islam story of the horse going up to heaven... I question everything. But what I do not do is debate the known assumptions which go along with the story... So that the Creation story as written in Genesis can be the only story which fills in the "assumptions" given to the Creator GOD of Jacob. To try and edit the details of a story from the character being described is silly. If the GOD of creation is GOD in real time - then the "GOD Model" found in the Genesis story MUST be taken as FACT regardless of the assumptions which are clearly present in the story. This is how the "mystery" of GOD takes shape. If on the other hand the Creation story is a "myth" creation story - then Peter needs to be removed from the Bible as he asserts, as do other Biblical writers, that "we do not follow cunningly devised fables - But were eyewitnesses to his glory..." ll Peter 1:16


    YOU Said, "Your comments seem very confused. You seem to be making a distinction between the "words" vs. the "ideas" of the Bible. But you don't really do that at all. You are constantly referring to the IDEAS that are expressed in the WORDS of the Bible.

    It seems absurd to suggest a total distinction between the words and the ideas of the Bible since the ideas are expressed in words.


    ---Well, Let me explain a little more. I am suggesting that the idea which is trying to be made in words is more important than the words themselves. Most Fundalmentalists fight for the notion that the WORDS as WRITTEN in ENGLISH are INSPIRED. I do not think so! That would mean only ONE BIBLE translation would be "inspired" since each word would not be able to be changed even into another language! Like the Catholics used to say that Latin was the "Official" language of the church and the Bible was read in that language and the people had no idea what was being said!

    So although the words can give meaning to the idea of the original thought - often times the word used in one language to express the idea in another language is lost in translation. This is especially true with idioms in Hebrew and Greek. So it is of utmost importance to see beyond the words themselves in English and try and see the MEANING in the original phrase or words before creating theology out of a particular verse.

    YOU Said. "False dichotomy. The universe could have been created and then it could have evolved."

    A NO! And No! ASSUMING the word evolve means something other than "to create." The word for empty in Genesis Boohuw - has the idea of vaccuum limitless nothing. Meaning that creation by definition started from NOTHING! "In the beginning was the Word." It is word creation not an evolving state of "something" already established morphing into something else over time - as you suggest. Now, I have no poblem with the idea that things and animals have "evolved" over time in a limited self-contained system. But in the beginning, all things were spoken into exsistence according to the creation word model.

    You Said. "Whatever you think of Christian tradition, the same people who have passed down the Bible have interpreted things differently than you."

    I totally agree... Except these people who passed down the Scriptures do not have a "lock" on the meaning of the Bible in any way! It is not about intelligence! It is about Spirit... I know everyone claims to have the spirit but few do. However truth is progressive... So Luther rejected certain traditions and created dogmas which were then revised by Wesley who then was trumped by Miller and on and on it goes. So just because the truth of the Word is not uncovered by all people in the same way at the same time, does not invalidate the fact that the Spirit is guiding a select few in every generation to the Ultimate truths held hidden in the Bible and in the Word of GOD. That person you insist does not exist! You cannot keep switching from defending the old interpretations of the Bible and then deny the GOD MODEL of the Bible and the miracles of GOD in the Bible. Either the Bible as a whole is inspired or it is not! That does not mean that there are no errors! But the Holy Spirit is promised to correct those errors in time and "guide us into all truth!" It does not matter that those who lived in the past did not understand ALL of the meaning hidden in the Bible... The Spirit's job is to enlighten the mind of those who ask. Everyone else is comes from darkness.

    YOU Said, "You comment makes no sense to me. If you admit that "all things were credited to GOD" (which is the root of the idea of God's absolute sovereignty) why do you now deny that he created moral evil?"

    The Bible is quite direct in its assertion that good and evil (as in the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil) are things which GOD who is "GOOD" cannot "create" or be a part of.

    James 1:17 KJV
    Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
    "No variables = no evil"

    NIV(modern English translation of the same greek text)
    17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.


    “His works are perfect. All of his ways are right. He is faithful. He doesn’t do anything wrong. He is honest and fair” (Deuteronomy 32:4b).

    So, moral evil v/s any other kind of evil is a theological splitting of hairs - but as a rule GOD cannot sin or do evil-period.

    YOU Said, "Talk about confusing terms! All words are "man-made" so any statement of "Truth" is man-made. It appears you are saying that "Truth" cannot be stated in words. If that's the case, then you have totally confused everything.

    I am not suggesting that words are not man-made. But the meaning of the ARRANGEMENT of the words constitutes "TRUTH and that is NOT man-made. YOU ARE WRONG in your twisting of logic as to the connection between words and their MEANINGS! Now let me repeat - you say I am premature in my assessment of your ideas not being correct in reference to how the Bible is written... yet you continue to deny the "style" of the insertion of miracles throughout the Bible. You just say that GOD does not do those things or that Jesus did not exist as GOD or that miracles are not possible because GOD does not exist! Your circular logic is pathetic! And yes you can disagree with me... I aint mad atcha... I enjoy understanding your perspective... It is fascinating to me!!

    And yes I do believe that the Ultimate truth does come through the "still (silent) small voice" - which is only heard throught he meditative process/ "Be still and know that I am GOD." The truth only comes when a person has set aside all pre-conceived notions and sits in quiet waiting for the Spirit to speak.

    YOU Said, "You say that "FAITH" is the way. Great. FAITH = GULLIBILITY. By your doctrine, only the stupid and ignorant make it to the other side."

    Yup... so be it! Jesus said, "Those that are whole have no need for a physician.... Blessed are they that cry after rightiousness for they shall be filled. Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see GOD."

    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Last edited by Mystykal; 08-19-2013 at 08:43 PM.

  7. #27
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    We are living, breathing,reproducing flesh machines,and denial is completely foolish,that we dont have a Creator.You will never see a car come into existance without a Creator,especially one that reproduces itself,no matter how much time is given for this to occur. Once this fact is realized,we go to step 2, the Creator would give us some idea whats going on, so we now search for truth,if we are in a position to do so,which most people are [if not he has that situation covered also].The Bible message doesnt come across as Perfect[on the surface that is]but it still makes the most sense,BY FAR,so common sense tells us that we have to trust one of the explainations given to us on this planet,so we have to go with the one that explains our situation the best,and the fact that the Bible is also designed with numeric miracles,it would make no sense,not to accept it as the Truth to our situation. If its not true,then none of the explainations are true,and it would make sense then to choose our own ending to our life,especially those who have had to live horrible lives,because they would have no hope.Why would they stay on earth and suffer into old age,when their existance is completely pointless,and perhaps die a very horrible death,when their awful life reaches its end,and no afterlife or Loving Creator is waiting for them when they pass through death.

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    HEAR, HEAR..
    That's a great paragraph, Scott -- is it original with you? Love it, and thanks.
    dux
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  9. #29
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    Thankyou Dux,and yes i was speaking from my own experiance with life,thats how it unfolded for me,and one day i knew thats as good as it gets[information wise]and God spoke to my heart and said decide,which is it,and i said ,its a no brainer, IM GOIN WITH YOU BIG GUY !

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    The mystery of Tao



    Your living this life is just as important as every other, yet it is one fragment of the Tao.

    Tao is simply the oriental way of saying "the will of God manifested" through all natural and supernal occurrences (being one).

    Toa is the dictation of life as it is (unfolding).

    When you come to the path that is not any humanly contrived way, then you may perhaps begin to walk this, the path of the Tao...that is, if you have the intestinal fortitude.



    It's elementary, dear Watson.


    You perhaps understand puns are usually a play on words.
    Well, it has also been done with koans.
    Here is one example..



    A little kotz goes a long way:

    ޜ

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