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  1. #11
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    Hello Mystykal and Richard

    After a few days away from the forum, I am jumping back in with a contribution to this thread. As I read your last posts in this thread, I find myself agreeing with both of you in parts. I am not saying my understanding is entirely correct, although somewhere in the middle ground is the truth.

    I think we have to approach the Bible afresh and forget all the rubbish that has been spoken for the last few centuries and is continuing to be spoken by evangelical Christians or the like. Difficult as it might be to dismiss things which are burned into our mind, nevertheless, there are those who are waking up to the truth that is contained in the Bible and not believing what has been taught my mainstream Christendom for years going back to the time of Constantine.

    We all claim to understand the plain and simple things written in the Bible, yet we accuse each other of error in understanding the simple things.

    The Holy Spirit - what is it exactly? The Holy Spirit as I understand it, is the power by which God operates. All the things God performs, he does so by His power. Can that power or some of that power be given to someone else? My answer would be "yes" and "no". We have no idea how God's power operates. The simplest form of understanding is that God spoke (the word -logos(gk)) and the word is acted on. How God's word operates is outside scientific understanding.

    Can the Holy Spirit be divided into subdivisions? The word "spirit" to me means an unseen force. It is like the wind, the effects of the wind are seen, but the wind is invisible just as the air we breath is invisible. I can think of God's word as spirit and the word can have an effect on me. The print on the page is powerless. It is the reading of the word and it is what goes on in my mind where the influence of those words have effect. It is the human mind and especially the mind that does not conform to following God's instructions that leads to enmity between man and God or God and the world. The world is made of like-minded people whose mind is at enmity with God. Hence, individuals, groups of people, organizations, governments involving people in "high-places" which are at enmity with God, and the people of God are the ones also wrestling against those same people. The Serpent, the Devil and Satan are all manifest in the same individuals, groups, organizations, and governments, hence any reference to these can be seen in the context of a connection with the human mind; singly or collectively.

    When I said "no" to the question; can God's power be given to someone else, that is born out by the fact that not even Jesus could do anything of himself. Jesus had access to God's power by asking God. He thanked God in advance for the power that was made available to him. Anything Jesus spoke, God was prepared to do (even an idle word) and so the power of Jesus to perform miracles was actually God performing them. I do not think anyone has the actual power of God residing in them. If I had the Holy Spirit residing in me, I would have no control over it and I would not understand how to use it. If the Holy Spirit ( God's power) resides with God and no-one else, then that goes against the idea of the Holy Spirit is a separate being separate from God as part of a triune God, which is not scriptural. People have access to God's power only if God responds to their requests. Angels are a separate subject. This might be when God's power is given to other beings and operates independently, but in accordance with God's will. Do God's Angels understand that power given to them and how it works? When God operates through Angels, is this just a way to explain how God is seen to be at work? We do not and cannot understand the workings of God's power at the molecular and atomic level? When God is said to be omnipresent and omnipotent, we can ask; why does God need Angels? Are Angels a form of networking and a distribution of God's power by which God is seen as omnipresent and omnipotent? These are fundamental questions to our understanding of what the "Holy Spirit" is and the channels through which it operates.

    As for the Tao, I know very little about it. Do I need to know and how is knowing what Tao is all about going to help me? Does the Tao give me essential information which the Bible does not? The Bible has everything we need to know which is essential to have a peaceful life and for salvation. The ancient Jewish scriptures contained the Gospel message which was preached to Abraham (Gal 3:8). The test for me is; does any other literature agree with God's word as recorded in the ancient Jewish scriptures? If the Tao was inspired by God for a purpose, I think God would have made known the purpose. Wise as these works are, if not caused by the inspiration of God, then they are the works of man. That is what we have to decide. I am convinced the Bible is divinely inspired, I have to be shown what is in the Tao that can be seen to be inspired writing to have come from God? God is ONE and there is none else. This is what the Bible teaches and so any other works of literature, which if inspired, can only come from the one God. Therefore, we have to see harmony in all these sources, if the sources have their origin in God.

    Once again, there are several major subjects to consider here in which we all have our own ideas and understanding. We need to deal with each subject one at a time.

    All the best
    David

  2. #12
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    Start to Finish...

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Hey there Mystykal,

    Glad you appreciate the questions!

    But your answer seems a bit confused. Is not your interpretation a "man-made thing" as much as any other? How can you criticize other interpretations as "man-made" while keeping your own interpretation free from that criticism, unless you are claiming special divine status for your interpretation?

    Now as for the "origin of evil" - you have taken a passage (Ezek 28) that is explicitly talking about the King of Tyre and have applied it figuratively to a being called "Satan". It looks like a "man-made SATAN model" to me. Of course, you did not invent this yourself. It is an old tradition amongst Bible interpreters. But why do you accept this traditional interpretation while so freely rejecting any interpretation that you don't like?

    There are a number of problems with your assertion that "this idea indicates that evil originated in ONE mind (Satan)". First, the Bible quotes God as saying "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7). Second, God's omniscience implies that he created Satan in such a way that Satan would ultimately be evil, so the origin of everything is ultimately the responsibility of the CREATOR. You diminish God when you say that anything could ORIGINATE outside of him (or so many Christians would argue, anyway). It's also a very simplistic understanding. We know nothing of the "origin of evil." You are taking fragments of ancient Hebrew literature and figuratively applying them to a poorly defined supernatural biblical character who is at times conflated with God. I don't think that's a good foundation for any real knowledge. How could you have any real confidence in such speculations?


    Say what? Are you saying that God had no choice but to command his people to murder every man, woman, and child of the Midianites except the 32,000 sexy virgins, half of whom were distributed to the very soldiers who had just slaughtered every person they ever loved?

    This is the enduring mystery of the Christian Bible. It presents God as absolutely ENAMORED with violence, VIOLENCE and MORE VIOLENCE. It seems that his answer to every challenge. Kill everyone with a flood. Destroy two cities with fire and brimstone. Send in the Babylonians to destroy his temple and slaughter his people. And to sum it all up, have a big blood "supper" where all the people in heaven rejoice to watch vultures eating the flesh of the people hated by their own Creator:

    Revelation 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: 2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. 3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. ... 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


    The fact that the Bible confuses God with Satan pretty much says it all.

    I have no idea how anyone could be satisfied with such sophistry. You appear to be putting Satan above God when you say that Satan really did the things the Bible attributes to God. And how does that fix anything anyway? God obviously could have stopped Satan from doing all that evil. Indeed, Job repeated shows that God gave Satan permission, which makes God responsible. And this is confirmed when God is quoted as taking responsibility for Job's destruction:
    Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
    You are playing fast and loose with the words of the Bible. They are putty in your hands. You mold them into whatever you want, even into meanings that are diametrically opposed to what they actually mean. How is it possible you can't see what you are doing?

    And this brings us back to "man-made doctrines." That's exactly what you have done. The Bible plainly attributes much evil to God, but you don't like that so you make up the doctrine that Satan was the real "origin" of evil.


    What makes you think they "left"? Where do you think they went? It seems you feel free to make up whatever wild speculations might enter your mind to fill every gap in your knowledge. It would be infinitely more likely that they were destroyed by a plague or famine than that they accessed secret wisdom and ascended to another dimension, don't you think?

    Now you say that the Bible is "that kind of book". What makes you say that? Have you known anyone who used it to ascend to a higher dimension? Don't your realize that your comments have no foundation in fact?

    Your quotation of Acts 1:11 is particularly ironic, because that is the verse Christian literalists use to justify their assertion about the literal return of Christ, but you don't believe the Bible is literal!


    That's a lovely mystical interpretation. But is there any reason to believe it is true? And if it is true, why is the Bible written with so much crap in it that causes so much evil in the world? For example, why is it so filled with sexism that has oppressed women for two thousand years? That doesn't sound like a book designed to help people cross over to the other side. It sounds like an all to human book filled with human failings that has misled millions of people and caused immeasurable needless suffering in the world. Things only began to get better when people realized that God is NOT TRUSTWORTHY. We learned we have to rely on our own strength and intelligence if we want to survive. When people had to trust God, we died like flies from the plague. Only when we abandoned faith in a faithless God did we find the strength to discover antibiotics, and so we have saved millions of lives that God was perfectly happy to let die miserable deaths.

    I hope my words don't frustrate you. I'm just answering in my honest voice, telling you how things really look to me. I hope you speak the same to me.

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    Hi Richard:
    I really am glad you have laid out the different perspectives as you see them. it's all good! I am not intimidated by your questions.... I once was in your boat! I too have lived in that world... I just choose to live in the world of the Masters now! i have personally experienced so many unexplainable things whic are from "the other side" I do not hesitate to go there or to talk about it dispite all the naysayers. I does not matter. In the end it is only you and the Great Mystery Spirit which will tango! It is only a personal understanding of the Spiritual Truth which will save us in the end. Withut that experience we will come up short and be eternally lost. Gone. vanished. Like a candle flame blown out! When we could have had eternal life. Living in the presence of the One Life. The Master of all the universe. The Creator. If we just had stuck to the path of wisdom. The path which all the wisdomkeepers have walked. If we just had developed the kind of faith which can move a mountain - we would have been given the prize of that eternal glory filled life with all of our family and friends! It's that simple. Take it or lieave it! That's the choice we each have to make. I for one, have chosen LIFE!

    As to your quesions.... I will try and answer them. I may have to come back and add some things later... so re-read this section several times if you care to.

    You said:
    Is not your interpretation a "man-made thing" as much as any other? How can you criticize other interpretations as "man-made" while keeping your own interpretation free from that criticism, unless you are claiming special divine status for your interpretation?

    --- The difference between a common person and a "Christian" or a Master or a Mystic is this: The subtle powers which are not obvious to the natural eye are visible to them. We have many stories in all parts of the world about the mystical unexplainable things which even defy scientific explanation. Sure there are fakes! But I am talking about the real Miracles of Jesus, Elijah, and the like. You think that no one was ever inspired by the Spirit to make an axe head float? You think Jesus never walked on water? You think Peter did not walk on water? So since you do not believe in GOD of the Bible or any GOD which can be known, you just ignore a world of "spooky" things!

    So, as you know the "new creation" or creature in Christ is supposed to have different abilities and mind/thoughts. This Spiritual change is often faked! But that does not negate the True transformation which DOES take place in the life of a person who has been united with the Master! I guess in that sense I would say that the Bible can be a book of controversy or a book full of gems of truth. It depends on the receiver's Spiritual connections. The Spirit does not change - people do!

    YOU said:There are a number of problems with your assertion that "this idea indicates that evil originated in ONE mind (Satan)". First, the Bible quotes God as saying "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7). Second, God's omniscience implies that he created Satan in such a way that Satan would ultimately be evil, so the origin of everything is ultimately the responsibility of the CREATOR. You diminish God when you say that anything could ORIGINATE outside of him (or so many Christians would argue, anyway). It's also a very simplistic understanding. We know nothing of the "origin of evil." You are taking fragments of ancient Hebrew literature and figuratively applying them to a poorly defined supernatural biblical character who is at times conflated with God. I don't think that's a good foundation for any real knowledge. How could you have any real confidence in such speculations?

    Richard right off the bat let's get something straight!... YOU KNOW that the word evil in Isaiah 45:7 is an ENGLISH word for multiple words in Hebrew! I don't have time for your ridiculus supposition that GOD CREATED EVIL since GOD's Omniscience PROHIBITS ANY FREE WILL. You know that is complete nonesense. Now the verse you quoted is:

    Isaiah 45:7 (AMP) | In Context | Whole Chapter
    7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace [national well-being] and I create [physical] evil (calamity); I am the Lord, Who does all these things.

    Footnotes:Isaiah 45:7 Moral evil proceeds from the will of men, but physical evil proceeds from the will of God.Isaiah 45:7XBackXIsaiah 45:7 (CEB) | In Context |
    7 I form light and create darkness,
    make prosperity and create doom;
    I am the Lord, who does all these things.

    YOU Said: You are playing fast and loose with the words of the Bible. They are putty in your hands. You mold them into whatever you want, even into meanings that are diametrically opposed to what they actually mean. How is it possible you can't see what you are doing?

    And this brings us back to "man-made doctrines." That's exactly what you have done. The Bible plainly attributes much evil to God, but you don't like that so you make up the doctrine that Satan was the real "origin" of evil.


    So, it is well known that early on in the Bible all things were credited to GOD. The later Greek notions of spliting light and darkness with good and evil and the whole duality notions was later applied by the translators to the Old Testament translation of the Septuagint in Greek. So your argument that I somehow am "diminishing" GOD's power in any way is wrong! You are the one who is simplistic! Your argument would be defeated by a first year student of theology! I am NOT playing with the WORDS of the BIBLE - YOU ARE! Enough said.

    In my opinion all doctrines per se are "man-made". There is a difference between "doctrines" and "Truth". Truth can be found in doctrines but doctrines can change. truth does not! you are consuming terms. I think your logic is
    Fallacious and down right absurd. But you act like you know the Bible when in fact you don't really understand the writing styles used or the meaning of the words themselves! Or you are just messing with me....

    As to the Inca/Mayan population: YOU said: What makes you think they "left"? Where do you think they went? It seems you feel free to make up whatever wild speculations might enter your mind to fill every gap in your knowledge. It would be infinitely more likely that they were destroyed by a plague or famine than that they accessed secret wisdom and ascended to another dimension, don't you think?

    Well maybe! But there are no known written materials indicating that from a highly sophisticated group and their writings that are here, talk about strange other-worldly beings.

    http://www.carnegiemuseums.org/cmag/.../feature1.html

    How an Inca society that was so rich and so well advanced in the arts of civilization could suddenly disappear from the world scene between the 1530s and 1570s is a critical question. The ruined Inca buildings, agricultural terraces for farming, and amazing roads of stone remained, but the artifacts and the detailed records of their way of life took a long time to be discovered and analyzed.

    “Night fell at noon”: The Spanish Conquest
    The central fact governing the disappearance of evidence about the historic Incas was the Spanish Conquest that began in the 1530s. Within a few decades, the daily objects, ancestral materials, and treasures of Inca civilization were methodically destroyed or removed by the Conquistadors. After Francisco Pizarro and his indiscriminate band of soldiers sacked the Inca capital of Cuzco in 1533, the other major Inca cities were soon overcome, and the gold and silver treasures of the empire were collected, melted, and converted into bars, and sent back to the treasury in Spain. “Whatever can be burned, is burned; the rest is broken,” reported one Spanish chronicler. One Inca observation that survived was, “Night fell at noon.”

    Gold hidden in the national vaults was the economic foundation of Medieval Europe, and in the 14th and 15th centuries most of it came from the west coast of Africa. But in the 16th century, South America presented a new stream of wealth to the mother country, Spain. The Conquistadors in the New World not only gathered up all the precious objects, but they continually sought something more, the mythic El Dorado—a hoard of gold at the end of the rainbow—to enrich the Spanish Crown. The conquest of Montezuma and the Aztecs in Mexico by Cortez in 1519 had set an example that a few years later was followed by the Conquistadors in the Andes.

    Inca civilization was also ripe for European exploitation in the early 1500s. A smallpox epidemic introduced from Europe had weakened the Andean populations, killing the last major Inca ruler, and there was a civil war between two competing contenders for the throne. It was difficult for Inca clans to unite against a common enemy.

    In addition, the Inca made disastrous military mistakes. They did not at first retreat into the mountains to fight the Spaniards, where they would have had an advantage, but used clubs and short swords to fight Conquistadors wearing armor and riding horses (an animal that had never been seen before). The Spanish used deadly steel swords, and fired canons and other firearms. The Incas were slaughtered by the thousands, and their rulers executed in public. Soon all the Inca cities had been looted and ruined, and the ruling class was gone.
    Still, there remained a legend, kept alive by the Spanish chroniclers, of a “lost city” in the jungle, bypassed by the conquerors, where Inca cultural materials survived. It was this centuries-old legend that Hiram Bingham, like many others, was ready to believe. Machu Picchu, found to be nearly inaccessible on a mountaintop, seemed to be the perfect lost city.

    Later archaeology and research in the 20th century have continued to refine our understanding and theories about the lost Inca culture. Whether Richard L. Burger, director of the Peabody Museum from 1995 through the end of 2002, and his co-curator Lucy C. Salazar, have finally solved the mystery of Machu Picchu, is up to visitors to the exhibit to decide.

    =======
    http://io9.com/5928085/10-civilizati...-circumstances

    The Maya are perhaps the classic example of a civilization that was completely lost, its great monuments, cities and roads swallowed up by the central American jungles, and its peoples scattered to small villages. Though the languages and traditions of the Maya still survive up to the present day, the civilization's peak was during the first millennium AD, when their greatest architectural feats and massive agricultural projects covered a vast region in the Yucatán — today, an area stretching from Mexico to Guatemala and Belize. One of the largest Mesoamerican civilizations, the Maya made extensive use of writing, math, an elaborate calendar, and sophisticated engineering to build their pyramids and terraced farms. Though it's often said that the Maya civilization began a mysterious decline in roughly the year 900, a great deal of evidence points to climate change in the Yucatán combined with internecine warfare, which resulted in famine and abandonment of the city centers.
    =====
    So that is the "official" rendition which ignores all the writings of these ancient civilizations and tries to explain the demise by some common natrual means.
    But archeologists cannot do that to the Bible Story if Enoch! They cannot discredit so easily the story of Elijah and the "firery chariot". These individuals did find a way to "cross over to the other side" without dying! Of course you can buty your head in the sand and ignore the stories or you can try and understand the hidden significance of such ideas. Like a formula which must be understood before it can be used to create/alter reality the Hopi N.Am. natives tell of a creation story and of spirits and gods which interacted with people. All made-up fantasy? I doubt it... Considering that the shamans of all cultures even Jesus - tell us of "another place" from which they came and how they are going back!... "If Christ be not risen, then your faith is in vain." 1 Corinthians 15:14
    And there it is again!... Faith is the one ingredient which opens up the passage way "to the other side!" Take it or leave it! Your gain or your loss!

    YOU Said "Your quotation of Acts 1:11 is particularly ironic, because that is the verse Christian literalists use to justify their assertion about the literal return of Christ, but you don't believe the Bible is literal!

    That's a lovely mystical interpretation. But is there any reason to believe it is true? And if it is true, why is the Bible written with so much crap in it that causes so much evil in the world?"



    Acts 1:11 International Standard Version
    They asked, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up toward heaven? This same Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you saw him go up into heaven."


    Literalism... I did not say I don't take some of the Bible to be literal... I said I do not think that the Bible must be understod in a literal sense...in order to see the formula for immortality. In other words the Bible stories are much more than stories. They hold "formulas" by which we can perform "magic" and change the future and access immortality. That is NOT what most "Christians" today believe. The word "literalism" has taken on a theological meaning which I do not agree with in the sense that, the underlying riddle IS the important issue - not the story itself. Having said that, it does not imply that the story is not FACTUAL. The whole basis for the Bible is that it is "inspired". I do not believe in "word" inspiration. The Bible then should only be read in the original language in which it was written.... Like the Koran! This problem of inspiration is at the heart of the crap you attribute to "Christianity" and the Bible - with all of its errors and sexism. The FACT that the holographs exist at all should indicate that the words are not the "inspired" part of the Bible but rather the Author and the ideas hidden in the verses arrangement is where the truth ACTUALLY resides. Think about that!

    The bottom line is this... The universe was either created or evolved... GOD is real or just a fake memory in the mind of man...The truth is present in the world or it does not exist..."God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" Hebrews 1:1,2

    Take it or leave it! Faith is the key which unlocks Heaven's mysteries.

    Namaste,

    Mystykal



    PS Remember Elijah! "If the Lord be GOD Hear ye him!
    Last edited by Mystykal; 08-17-2013 at 10:08 PM.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    You said:
    Is not your interpretation a "man-made thing" as much as any other? How can you criticize other interpretations as "man-made" while keeping your own interpretation free from that criticism, unless you are claiming special divine status for your interpretation?

    --- The difference between a common person and a "Christian" or a Master or a Mystic is this: The subtle powers which are not obvious to the natural eye are visible to them. We have many stories in all parts of the world about the mystical unexplainable things which even defy scientific explanation. Sure there are fakes! But I am talking about the real Miracles of Jesus, Elijah, and the like. You think that no one was ever inspired by the Spirit to make an axe head float? You think Jesus never walked on water? You think Peter did not walk on water? So since you do not believe in GOD of the Bible or any GOD which can be known, you just ignore a world of "spooky" things!

    tbc...
    There is much I have to say, but time prevents me at this moment. I'm heading out for a wonderful 60 mile bicycle ride up into the mountains. I'll be back in about six hours.

    Have a great day!

    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    There is much I have to say, but time prevents me at this moment. I'm heading out for a wonderful 60 mile bicycle ride up into the mountains. I'll be back in about six hours.

    Have a great day!

    Cool!

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    Go Back....

    Richard: Go back and look at my response way below! I hope that gives you pause... Think about it!

    Namaste,

    Mystykal

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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Mystykal and Richard

    After a few days away from the forum, I am jumping back in with a contribution to this thread. As I read your last posts in this thread, I find myself agreeing with both of you in parts. I am not saying my understanding is entirely correct, although somewhere in the middle ground is the truth.

    I think we have to approach the Bible afresh and forget all the rubbish that has been spoken for the last few centuries and is continuing to be spoken by evangelical Christians or the like. Difficult as it might be to dismiss things which are burned into our mind, nevertheless, there are those who are waking up to the truth that is contained in the Bible and not believing what has been taught my mainstream Christendom for years going back to the time of Constantine.

    We all claim to understand the plain and simple things written in the Bible, yet we accuse each other of error in understanding the simple things.

    The Holy Spirit - what is it exactly? The Holy Spirit as I understand it, is the power by which God operates. All the things God performs, he does so by His power. Can that power or some of that power be given to someone else? My answer would be "yes" and "no". We have no idea how God's power operates. The simplest form of understanding is that God spoke (the word -logos(gk)) and the word is acted on. How God's word operates is outside scientific understanding.

    Can the Holy Spirit be divided into subdivisions? The word "spirit" to me means an unseen force. It is like the wind, the effects of the wind are seen, but the wind is invisible just as the air we breath is invisible. I can think of God's word as spirit and the word can have an effect on me. The print on the page is powerless. It is the reading of the word and it is what goes on in my mind where the influence of those words have effect. It is the human mind and especially the mind that does not conform to following God's instructions that leads to enmity between man and God or God and the world. The world is made of like-minded people whose mind is at enmity with God. Hence, individuals, groups of people, organizations, governments involving people in "high-places" which are at enmity with God, and the people of God are the ones also wrestling against those same people. The Serpent, the Devil and Satan are all manifest in the same individuals, groups, organizations, and governments, hence any reference to these can be seen in the context of a connection with the human mind; singly or collectively.

    When I said "no" to the question; can God's power be given to someone else, that is born out by the fact that not even Jesus could do anything of himself. Jesus had access to God's power by asking God. He thanked God in advance for the power that was made available to him. Anything Jesus spoke, God was prepared to do (even an idle word) and so the power of Jesus to perform miracles was actually God performing them. I do not think anyone has the actual power of God residing in them. If I had the Holy Spirit residing in me, I would have no control over it and I would not understand how to use it. If the Holy Spirit ( God's power) resides with God and no-one else, then that goes against the idea of the Holy Spirit is a separate being separate from God as part of a triune God, which is not scriptural. People have access to God's power only if God responds to their requests. Angels are a separate subject. This might be when God's power is given to other beings and operates independently, but in accordance with God's will. Do God's Angels understand that power given to them and how it works? When God operates through Angels, is this just a way to explain how God is seen to be at work? We do not and cannot understand the workings of God's power at the molecular and atomic level? When God is said to be omnipresent and omnipotent, we can ask; why does God need Angels? Are Angels a form of networking and a distribution of God's power by which God is seen as omnipresent and omnipotent? These are fundamental questions to our understanding of what the "Holy Spirit" is and the channels through which it operates.

    As for the Tao, I know very little about it. Do I need to know and how is knowing what Tao is all about going to help me? Does the Tao give me essential information which the Bible does not? The Bible has everything we need to know which is essential to have a peaceful life and for salvation. The ancient Jewish scriptures contained the Gospel message which was preached to Abraham (Gal 3:8). The test for me is; does any other literature agree with God's word as recorded in the ancient Jewish scriptures? If the Tao was inspired by God for a purpose, I think God would have made known the purpose. Wise as these works are, if not caused by the inspiration of God, then they are the works of man. That is what we have to decide. I am convinced the Bible is divinely inspired, I have to be shown what is in the Tao that can be seen to be inspired writing to have come from God? God is ONE and there is none else. This is what the Bible teaches and so any other works of literature, which if inspired, can only come from the one God. Therefore, we have to see harmony in all these sources, if the sources have their origin in God.

    Once again, there are several major subjects to consider here in which we all have our own ideas and understanding. We need to deal with each subject one at a time.

    All the best
    David
    Hi David:

    ONe quick comment to your comment about the TAO...

    YOU said, "As for the Tao, I know very little about it. Do I need to know and how is knowing what Tao is all about going to help me? Does the Tao give me essential information which the Bible does not? The Bible has everything we need to know which is essential to have a peaceful life and for salvation."

    You act like everything we need is in the Bible.. Ok. Did you learn to type reading the Bible? Did you learn to do math reading the Bible? NO!

    So in the same way lots of people think tht the English KJV is all they need to know the way to salvation. I suggest that if we understand other cultures and how they relate to the truth then we can bring them the GOOD News as written in the Scriptures from their own writings and understandings in their own culture without destroying their truths which are the SAME truth spoken of by Jesus when He said, "Other sheep have I which are not of this fold. Them also must I bring... And there shall be ONE FOLD and ONE shepherd."

    The TAO is NOT a book! It is the way of all things!

    Namaste,

    Mystykal

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    Hi Richard:
    I really am glad you have laid out the different perspectives as you see them. it's all good! I am not intimidated by your questions.... I once was in your boat! I too have lived in that world... I just choose to live in the world of the Masters now! i have personally experienced so many unexplainable things whic are from "the other side" I do not hesitate to go there or to talk about it dispite all the naysayers. I does not matter. In the end it is only you and the Great Mystery Spirit which will tango! It is only a personal understanding of the Spiritual Truth which will save us in the end. Withut that experience we will come up short and be eternally lost. Gone. vanished. Like a candle flame blown out! When we could have had eternal life. Living in the presence of the One Life. The Master of all the universe. The Creator. If we just had stuck to the path of wisdom. The path which all the wisdomkeepers have walked. If we just had developed the kind of faith which can move a mountain - we would have been given the prize of that eternal glory filled life with all of our family and friends! It's that simple. Take it or lieave it! That's the choice we each have to make. I for one, have chosen LIFE!
    Hey there Mystykal,

    Yesterday was rather hot, and the ride was long, so I found myself too tired to answer. But after a good night's sleep and a pleasant swim in our pool, I'm feeling refreshed.

    I'm not sure you know enough about my position to say that you were "once in my boat." I doubt that could be true, because if you ever had been in my "boat" you would not give the answers you are giving. I get the impression you don't really understand my position at all. But that's OK - we are here to learn from each other.

    Your beliefs are fascinating because it looks like you have invented (or adopted) a kind of "fundamentalist mysticism" that says my soul will be "eternally lost" if I do not find the "Spiritual Truth" that you have come to believe. It doesn't sound much different than Christian fundamentalism which says I will be "eternally lost" if I don't believe in Jesus and "get saved".

    Where did you get the idea that the "Great Mystery Spirit" is going to reject and annihilate me if I don't achieve knowledge of the "Spiritual Truth" you believe in? To me, that sounds like all the religions that say "You must believe my dogma or you will not get eternal life". It sounds just like fundamentalist Christianity. It sounds like anything but the "Truth".

    Your idea that YOUR DOGMAS are the UNIVERSAL TRUTH sounds like typical religious fundamentalism. There never has been any group of people, let alone "wisdomkeepers", who all taught the same thing. The only way you could come to that conclusion is if you defined a "wisdomkeeper" as someone who agreed with you and your beliefs! It looks like you are confusing you own ideas with the teachings of some imaginary "wisdomkeepers."

    Who are these "wisdomkeepers"? Do they have names? Have they written any books? How do you discern a "wisdomkeeper" from other writers?

    I'll let this post stand on its own, since I'd like an answer to these specific questions. I'll answer your other comments in another post.

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    As to your quesions.... I will try and answer them. I may have to come back and add some things later... so re-read this section several times if you care to.

    You said:
    Is not your interpretation a "man-made thing" as much as any other? How can you criticize other interpretations as "man-made" while keeping your own interpretation free from that criticism, unless you are claiming special divine status for your interpretation?

    --- The difference between a common person and a "Christian" or a Master or a Mystic is this: The subtle powers which are not obvious to the natural eye are visible to them. We have many stories in all parts of the world about the mystical unexplainable things which even defy scientific explanation. Sure there are fakes! But I am talking about the real Miracles of Jesus, Elijah, and the like. You think that no one was ever inspired by the Spirit to make an axe head float? You think Jesus never walked on water? You think Peter did not walk on water? So since you do not believe in GOD of the Bible or any GOD which can be known, you just ignore a world of "spooky" things!

    So, as you know the "new creation" or creature in Christ is supposed to have different abilities and mind/thoughts. This Spiritual change is often faked! But that does not negate the True transformation which DOES take place in the life of a person who has been united with the Master! I guess in that sense I would say that the Bible can be a book of controversy or a book full of gems of truth. It depends on the receiver's Spiritual connections. The Spirit does not change - people do!
    You say that the "difference" is that the teachers you believe in are "real" whereas the others are "fakes". Great. I'd get the same answer from every member of every cult that has ever existed.

    Why in the world would you believe that the miracle stories are true? It's a lot easier to make up a story about someone walking on water than to actually do it. And we know such stories have often been made up. And worse, the Bible is filled with blatant mythology, like the story of creation. So logic says you should be skeptical. But you are not. Why is that? Do you also believe that Muhammad rode a horse to the moon? Do you believe that the Galactic Overlord Xenu flew all the souls to planet earth 75,000,000 years ago in a spaceship that looked exactly like a DC-8? Do you have any principles to discern truth from error?

    You are correct that I do not believe in the miracle stories of the Bible. And why not? For the same reason I don't believe in the miracle stories of the Quran and the Book of Mormon! There is no reason to believe them and good reasons to be skeptical. Simple as that. Why do you believe them? I doubt you can give a good reason that is logically consistent with your reasons for rejecting the mythology of other religions. It seems like you glory in gullibility and are highly skeptical about things that are scientifically well established. It seems upside down and backwards to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    YOU said:There are a number of problems with your assertion that "this idea indicates that evil originated in ONE mind (Satan)". First, the Bible quotes God as saying "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7). Second, God's omniscience implies that he created Satan in such a way that Satan would ultimately be evil, so the origin of everything is ultimately the responsibility of the CREATOR. You diminish God when you say that anything could ORIGINATE outside of him (or so many Christians would argue, anyway). It's also a very simplistic understanding. We know nothing of the "origin of evil." You are taking fragments of ancient Hebrew literature and figuratively applying them to a poorly defined supernatural biblical character who is at times conflated with God. I don't think that's a good foundation for any real knowledge. How could you have any real confidence in such speculations?

    Richard right off the bat let's get something straight!... YOU KNOW that the word evil in Isaiah 45:7 is an ENGLISH word for multiple words in Hebrew! I don't have time for your ridiculus supposition that GOD CREATED EVIL since GOD's Omniscience PROHIBITS ANY FREE WILL. You know that is complete nonesense. Now the verse you quoted is:

    Isaiah 45:7 (AMP) | In Context | Whole Chapter
    7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace [national well-being] and I create [physical] evil (calamity); I am the Lord, Who does all these things.

    Footnotes:Isaiah 45:7 Moral evil proceeds from the will of men, but physical evil proceeds from the will of God.Isaiah 45:7XBackXIsaiah 45:7 (CEB) | In Context |
    7 I form light and create darkness,
    make prosperity and create doom;
    I am the Lord, who does all these things.
    Yes, the word used in that verse can refer to either moral or natural evil, so you can choose which meaning you want to believe applies in this case. Of course, it is the same word used in Gen 2:7 concerning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, so the moral aspect weighs heavily. The context of the verse is all about how God alone is SOVEREIGN OVER ALL - it segues into the classic passage about how people are like CLAY in the hands of God the potter:
    Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? 10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
    Paul quotes this passage in Romans 9, the most famous passage that speaks of GOD'S ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGNTY and how he creates evil people to use for his glory:
    Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 ¶ Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
    This is how God's sovereignty has been understood by many of the leading "wisdomkeepers" of the Christian tradition, so it's arrogant for you to simply dismiss it as "nonsense". Whatever you think of Christian tradition, the same people who have passed down the Bible have interpreted things differently than you.

    As an aside: This connection between Isaiah Chapter 45 and Bible Book 45 (Romans) is one of the more striking examples of the Isaiah Bible Correlation.

    Your comments are a perfect example of why no one could ever hope to find "truth" in the Bible. The conclusions depend upon the presuppositions and there is no way for anyone to test which is right and who is wrong. You are committed to your doctrine that God only does things that are "good" so you will find a way to force the words of the Bible to fit that doctrine. Others are committed to the doctrine that God is absolutely sovereign, and so they will force the words of the Bible to fit that doctrine. The words of the Bible are nothing but putty in the hands of such interpreters who BEGIN with a doctrine that they are committed to.

    It's also interesting that you simply assume that the idea of "free will" is meaningful and relevant. Well, here's a news flash: philosophers have been twisting around that pole for two thousand years and they've never come to any consensus, so it is absurd for you to simply assert that you have all the answers that the greatest minds in history have failed to find.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    YOU Said: You are playing fast and loose with the words of the Bible. They are putty in your hands. You mold them into whatever you want, even into meanings that are diametrically opposed to what they actually mean. How is it possible you can't see what you are doing?

    And this brings us back to "man-made doctrines." That's exactly what you have done. The Bible plainly attributes much evil to God, but you don't like that so you make up the doctrine that Satan was the real "origin" of evil.


    So, it is well known that early on in the Bible all things were credited to GOD. The later Greek notions of spliting light and darkness with good and evil and the whole duality notions was later applied by the translators to the Old Testament translation of the Septuagint in Greek. So your argument that I somehow am "diminishing" GOD's power in any way is wrong! You are the one who is simplistic! Your argument would be defeated by a first year student of theology! I am NOT playing with the WORDS of the BIBLE - YOU ARE! Enough said.
    You comment makes no sense to me. If you admit that "all things were credited to GOD" (which is the root of the idea of God's absolute sovereignty) why do you now deny that he created moral evil? My comment that "You diminish God when you say that anything could ORIGINATE outside of him" stands. Merely shouting at me and throwing my words back in my face is not a meaningful response.

    I am not the one playing with the words of the Bible. I have said nothing that isn't common knowledge amongst all competent scholars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    In my opinion all doctrines per se are "man-made". There is a difference between "doctrines" and "Truth". Truth can be found in doctrines but doctrines can change. truth does not! you are consuming terms. I think your logic is
    Fallacious and down right absurd. But you act like you know the Bible when in fact you don't really understand the writing styles used or the meaning of the words themselves! Or you are just messing with me....
    Talk about confusing terms! All words are "man-made" so any statement of "Truth" is man-made. It appears you are saying that "Truth" cannot be stated in words. If that's the case, then you have totally confused everything.

    It is a little premature for you to be making blanket assertions about my lack of understanding Biblical "writing styles" since you have not shown any error in anything I have written. You need to show an actual error in something I've written, not merely claim that you are right.

    I am not "messing with you." I have only been pointing out a few of the primary themes that the "Christian wisdomkeepers" have emphasized over the last two thousand years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    As to the Inca/Mayan population: YOU said: What makes you think they "left"? Where do you think they went? It seems you feel free to make up whatever wild speculations might enter your mind to fill every gap in your knowledge. It would be infinitely more likely that they were destroyed by a plague or famine than that they accessed secret wisdom and ascended to another dimension, don't you think?

    Well maybe! But there are no known written materials indicating that from a highly sophisticated group and their writings that are here, talk about strange other-worldly beings.

    http://www.carnegiemuseums.org/cmag/.../feature1.html

    So that is the "official" rendition which ignores all the writings of these ancient civilizations and tries to explain the demise by some common natrual means.
    But archeologists cannot do that to the Bible Story if Enoch! They cannot discredit so easily the story of Elijah and the "firery chariot". These individuals did find a way to "cross over to the other side" without dying! Of course you can buty your head in the sand and ignore the stories or you can try and understand the hidden significance of such ideas. Like a formula which must be understood before it can be used to create/alter reality the Hopi N.Am. natives tell of a creation story and of spirits and gods which interacted with people. All made-up fantasy? I doubt it... Considering that the shamans of all cultures even Jesus - tell us of "another place" from which they came and how they are going back!... "If Christ be not risen, then your faith is in vain." 1 Corinthians 15:14
    And there it is again!... Faith is the one ingredient which opens up the passage way "to the other side!" Take it or leave it! Your gain or your loss!
    Yes, there it is again. You reject the commonsense explanations (which are far and away the most likely) and go running after silly superstitions that are almost certainly false. This is why it is so ironic when you speak of "TRUTH" - everything you write is strongly biased towards things that are almost certainly false. Wow.

    You say that "FAITH" is the way. Great. FAITH = GULLIBILITY. By your doctrine, only the stupid and ignorant make it to the other side. Scientologists, Muslims, Mormons, JWs, and every kind of mindless cult from the dawn of time is on your side. You say all anyone needs is FAITH IN THE TOOTH FAIRY??? Is that really what you are teaching? Of course not. You are saying that I must have "faith" in what is "true". But how do we know what is true? That brings us back to the necessity of skepticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    YOU Said "Your quotation of Acts 1:11 is particularly ironic, because that is the verse Christian literalists use to justify their assertion about the literal return of Christ, but you don't believe the Bible is literal!

    That's a lovely mystical interpretation. But is there any reason to believe it is true? And if it is true, why is the Bible written with so much crap in it that causes so much evil in the world?"



    Acts 1:11 International Standard Version
    They asked, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up toward heaven? This same Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you saw him go up into heaven."


    Literalism... I did not say I don't take some of the Bible to be literal... I said I do not think that the Bible must be understod in a literal sense...in order to see the formula for immortality. In other words the Bible stories are much more than stories. They hold "formulas" by which we can perform "magic" and change the future and access immortality. That is NOT what most "Christians" today believe. The word "literalism" has taken on a theological meaning which I do not agree with in the sense that, the underlying riddle IS the important issue - not the story itself. Having said that, it does not imply that the story is not FACTUAL. The whole basis for the Bible is that it is "inspired". I do not believe in "word" inspiration. The Bible then should only be read in the original language in which it was written.... Like the Koran! This problem of inspiration is at the heart of the crap you attribute to "Christianity" and the Bible - with all of its errors and sexism. The FACT that the holographs exist at all should indicate that the words are not the "inspired" part of the Bible but rather the Author and the ideas hidden in the verses arrangement is where the truth ACTUALLY resides. Think about that!
    Your comments seem very confused. You seem to be making a distinction between the "words" vs. the "ideas" of the Bible. But you don't really do that at all. You are constantly referring to the IDEAS that are expressed in the WORDS of the Bible.

    It seems absurd to suggest a total disjunction between the words and the ideas of the Bible since the ideas are expressed in words. The reason the Bible Wheel and the the Holographs impressed me was because their structure coheres with the meaning of the plain text. The words had MEANING. It is absurd to suggest that the words don't have meaning whereas structural patterns made of those words do. Your ideas make no sense since we both know that you are using the MEANING OF THE WORDS when you speak of Jesus walking on water, the fiery chariot, and all that. So you are being inconsistent. The words are perfectly meaningful when you like the meaning, but you just toss them out and ignore them when you don't - as with the crap and the sexism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    The bottom line is this... The universe was either created or evolved... GOD is real or just a fake memory in the mind of man...The truth is present in the world or it does not exist..."God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" Hebrews 1:1,2

    Take it or leave it! Faith is the key which unlocks Heaven's mysteries.

    Namaste,

    Mystykal

    PS Remember Elijah! "If the Lord be GOD Hear ye him!
    False dichotomy. The universe could have been created and then it could have evolved.

    And it is utterly meaningless to speak of "GOD" as either "real or just a fake" because the term is not well defined at all! Do you mean the theistic style personal god who runs around "doing things" like any other bit player in the Cosmic Drama? Do you mean nothing but "Cosmic Consciousness"? Do you mean a being that is like a person, and who loves and hates and throws people in hell? Do you mean Allah, Apollo, Yahweh, or Zeus? Your comment is meaningless as it stands because the word "God" is not well defined at all.

    And then you say that the "truth" is present in the world or it does not exist." That's nuts, given that any statement of "truth" is a man-made thing, including the whole Bible, but you say the Bible is inspired, but that words don't have truth rather the "ideas" contained in number patterns.... it's too much confusion. You need to slow down and say something that you really mean after you have given it some serious thought. Your comment are wild and undisciplined and difficult to discuss.

    And in your final quote from the Bible, you exemplify the fundamentally sexist nature of the Bible. We have the MALE GOD, THE FATHER and HIS MALE SON JESUS. Is that really how you conceive of GOD?? AS MALE? TOTALLY MALE?

    If "faith" is what unlocks the Heavens mysteries, then heavens mysteries are the stuff of mythology, superstitions, and ignorance.

    Funny thing is - life began to get good on planet earth when folks finally learned that FAITH was the fast track to the grave. As long as people had FAITH in God to save them, they died miserable early deaths from easily prevented diseases.

    SCIENCE has saved millions that GOD was happy to let die, no matter how much "Faith" they had and no matter how much they begged him to save them. It was SCIENCE that invented antibiotics, refrigerators, electricity, and everything else that has made life on this planet a million times better than when foolish people trusted in a God who wasn't there.

    I think the conversation would be better if we took one thing at a time. They bloat very quickly when there are too many rabbit trails.

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #19
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    Hello Mystykal

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    Hi David:
    ONe quick comment to your comment about the TAO...
    You act like everything we need is in the Bible.. Ok. Did you learn to type reading the Bible? Did you learn to do math reading the Bible? NO! So in the same way lots of people think that the English KJV is all they need to know the way to salvation.
    I think there is everything we need to know for salvation in the Bible as we have it today; the KJV for all its errors is still one of the best translations that require an understanding of the usage of words at the time it was translated. God’s word is not intended to teach us to read and write. It is not necessary to read and write; only to understand the spoken word. This is how God’s word was given to his chosen people. The commandments were first shouted down at Sinai and the people feared for their lives and did not want God to talk to them in that way again. They did say ; all God has said, we will do, and then immediately failed to keep their word.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    I suggest that if we understand other cultures and how they relate to the truth then we can bring them the GOOD News as written in the Scriptures from their own writings and understandings in their own culture without destroying their truths which are the SAME truth spoken of by Jesus when He said, "Other sheep have I which are not of this fold. Them also must I bring... And there shall be ONE FOLD and ONE shepherd."
    This other fold is most likely Gentile believers. If what you say is true, you should be able to demonstrate how that can take place. You are saying that these cultures have the same truth as spoken by Jesus, then you must show me how that is so. From what you say, these other cultures should accept the words of Jesus. Surely, when Jesus said; (Matt 24: 14) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. That is what is still being done today and there are those who are intent on making this happen and that God’s word is spread to all nations. The statistics will probably show that the number of converts from any culture is low.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    The TAO is NOT a book! It is the way of all things!
    And what exactly is that way. Jesus said (John 14:6); I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. This is what other cultures have to accept. The problem is that other cultures exist because of tradition and we know how people hang on to tradition.
    What is there in other cultures, that is superior to what God required of Israel? What evidence have you that God has not rejected all those other cultures. God chose Abraham and it was the nation that came out of Abraham’s descendants, who God chose to be his witness. Abraham was called out of Babylon. Babylon has become the symbol for the world, which is enmity with God. Israel was not a faithful witnesses and have suffered the consequences of their unfaithfulness, nevertheless, everything that has happened to the Jews is as a result of God keeping his word and the Jews are, by their very existence, a witness for God. (Isaiah 43:12) I have declared, and have saved, and I have showed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.
    God is very condemnatory of the cultural practices (idolatry) and God’s judgement is to come on all nations. How will these other cultures of which you speak be judged in God’s eyes? I am sure there is good to be found in all cultures, but equally, there is a lot to be condemned.

    All the best
    David

  10. #20
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    Hello Richard

    I think a correction is in order.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    It was SCIENCE that invented antibiotics, refrigerators, electricity, and everything else that has made life on this planet a million times better than when foolish people trusted in a God who wasn't there.
    Science and technology are responsible for producing items like refrigerators that run off electricity (and gas). Science did not invent electricity. Science might have discovered what electricity is comprised of and the laws that govern electricity. Electricity is the conductance of electrons. What is lightening? Lightening is part of the natural elements and is produced naturally in thunderstorms. Lightening is the conductance of static charge (produced in the clouds) to ground. It is the same conductance that takes place in metal wires. Science has discovered how to generate electricity; science did not invent electricity.

    It is not foolish to trust in God. According to God's word, the fool is the one who says; "there is no God". Foolishness is to think like the fool. It would be "foolish" for a fool to trust in a God, which they say does not exist.

    Statistically, while what you say is true for millions upon millions, in the same way as "few are chosen", the same "few" are the ones who can be found as examples of God answering prayer and have personal reason to trust in God. I can trust in God purely from seeing God's promises and prophecies being fulfilled and that gives me trust for all the other things that God has promised to be fulfilled in the future. Because you cannot see the same as I do, does not mean that you are right. Only time will tell. We can all be blind when we want to be.

    All the best
    David

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