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  1. #1
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    If there is a God

    If there is a God, and there is a judgment day after death, I think that God will applaud all of those who refused to condone and justify biblical violence, or accept the abuse attributed to God’s name via the Bible. If a God exists, compassion and kindness will be the hallmarks of his/her name, not whether someone praised and worshiped a biblical portrayal of an ill tempered god that demanded to be glorified for atrocious behavior. People who stand up for the equal rights of all humans and used their intellect to help a suffering world will be the ones who are rewarded for a job well done, whether or not they acknowledge the existence of a specific god recorded in the pages of the Bible.

    It seems many of the teachings of the Bible focus on the praise, adoration and worship of its god at the expense of empathy, and the priorities of equal human justice. Goodness and respect is lost, replaced with the perverse idea of denying people equality based on their gender. What seems to be forgotten in the minds of those who are steeped in religious dogma, is that the ideals of true morality and compassion are acted out in the lives of countless individuals, who let their actions speak instead of the proclamations of a tribal god. They are the ones who should receive the highest praise and the greatest reward at judgment day whether or not an expression of acknowledgment was given to a particular imaginary god. No true god would ever create life on a foundation of inequality; any such endeavor is doomed to fail which is abundantly clear when we look at the course that history has taken when these biblical practices of injustice have been implemented.


    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

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  2. #2
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    GOD IS GOOD...ALL The Time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    If there is a God, and there is a judgment day after death, I think that God will applaud all of those who refused to condone and justify biblical violence, or accept the abuse attributed to God’s name via the Bible. If a God exists, compassion and kindness will be the hallmarks of his/her name, not whether someone praised and worshiped a biblical portrayal of an ill tempered god that demanded to be glorified for atrocious behavior. People who stand up for the equal rights of all humans and used their intellect to help a suffering world will be the ones who are rewarded for a job well done, whether or not they acknowledge the existence of a specific god recorded in the pages of the Bible.

    It seems many of the teachings of the Bible focus on the praise, adoration and worship of its god at the expense of empathy, and the priorities of equal human justice. Goodness and respect is lost, replaced with the perverse idea of denying people equality based on their gender. What seems to be forgotten in the minds of those who are steeped in religious dogma, is that the ideals of true morality and compassion are acted out in the lives of countless individuals, who let their actions speak instead of the proclamations of a tribal god. They are the ones who should receive the highest praise and the greatest reward at judgment day whether or not an expression of acknowledgment was given to a particular imaginary god. No true god would ever create life on a foundation of inequality; any such endeavor is doomed to fail which is abundantly clear when we look at the course that history has taken when these biblical practices of injustice have been implemented.


    Rose
    Hi Rose:
    I know Richard does not believe in a Satan/Devil per se.... And maybe you don't as well. But isn't it POSSIBLE that all the "bad" things attributed to GOD in the Bible could have ACTUALLY been the work of the Devil? Why do you insist on a narrow understanding of the stories which you admit are myths and then you act like GOD is the origin of evil deeds done in the name of GOD! Perhaps the evil attributed to GOD is in fact the work of Satan the "accuser of the brethren".
    GOD IS Love! GOD is good....All The Time!

    Just a thought...

    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Last edited by Mystykal; 08-11-2013 at 05:30 PM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    Hi Rose:
    I know Richard does not believe in a Satan/Devil per se.... And maybe you don't as well. But isn't it POSSIBLE that all the "bad" things attributed to GOD in the Bible could have ACTUALLY been the work of the Devil? Why do you insist on a narrow understanding of the stories which you admit are myths and then you act like GOD is the origin of evil deeds done in the name of GOD! Perhaps the evil attributed to GOD is in fact the work of Satan the "accuser of the brethren".
    GOD IS Love! GOD is good....All The Time!

    Just a thought...

    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Hey there Mystykal,

    I'm confused. If all the bad things attributed to God in the Bible were really the work of the Devil, then why does the Bible say God did it? Wouldn't that make the Bible a blasphemous lie? Why would anyone believe a word it says? Indeed, your comment suggests to me that you really don't believe anything the Bible says if it doesn't fit your own ideas about GOD.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Hey there Mystykal,

    I'm confused. If all the bad things attributed to God in the Bible were really the work of the Devil, then why does the Bible say God did it? Wouldn't that make the Bible a blasphemous lie? Why would anyone believe a word it says? Indeed, your comment suggests to me that you really don't believe anything the Bible says if it doesn't fit your own ideas about GOD.

    All the best,

    Richard
    Hi Richard:

    All good questions there! As you know, the development of the "GOD Model" in the Bible is a man-made thing. GOD did not "write" the Bible. So the words themselves can be misunderstood based on how people try and twist the stories and the outcomes to match their notions of GOD. But if we just look at the information from a distance it is easy to make out the trends and the indications of thought as to the origin of ideas.

    So that when the Bible says "Thou was perfect in all thy ways until iniquity was found in thee" - this idea indicates that evil originated in ONE mind (Satan) and spread from there. The idea that GOD is responsible for the murders and the killings in the Bible ignores this FACT of the origin of evil.

    So just because the words say "GOD commanded the death of xyz" does not mean it is outside of the scope of the origins of evil - the avenging angel which destroys is sometimes attributed to GOD and sometimes attributed to Satan! There is even one story which is given two different sources in two different tellings of the same story! So we could deduct that one of the writers got it wrong or that the source of evil things is ALWAYS the SATAN - and so any deviation from that is just a man made perspective on the events.

    The Bible is not a simple book. By that I mean it is not written as black and white. The purpose of the Bible is to open the portal of wisdom to the other side. The INCAS the Mayans and many other cultures just seem to have disappeared leaving all their possessions behind. Highly intelligent people with little reason to just up and leave. I suggest that they give us examples of people who found a passage way to another world/dimension. The Bible is that kind of Book. It tells us that "This same Jesus who you have seen go into heaven will come back in like manner... Be ye also ready!" Acts 1:11/Matthew 24:44

    1 Corinthians 15:51-55
    New International Version (NIV)

    51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[a]
    55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
    Where, O death, is your sting?”[b]
    Footnotes:
    a.1 Corinthians 15:54 Isaiah 25:8
    b.1 Corinthians 15:55 Hosea 13:14

    It is for this reason that the Bible was written. To develop the kind of faith which can cause a person to cross over to the other side!

    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Last edited by Mystykal; 08-13-2013 at 07:22 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    Hi Richard:

    All good questions there! As you know, the development of the "GOD Model" in the Bible is a man-made thing. GOD did not "write" the Bible. So the words themselves can be misunderstood based on how people try and twist the stories and the outcomes to match their notions of GOD. But if we just look at the information from a distance it is easy to make out the trends and the indications of thought as to the origin of ideas.

    So that when the Bible says "Thou was perfect in all thy ways until iniquity was found in thee" - this idea indicates that evil originated in ONE mind (Satan) and spread from there. The idea that GOD is responsible for the murders and the killings in the Bible ignores this FACT of the origin of evil.
    Hey there Mystykal,

    Glad you appreciate the questions!

    But your answer seems a bit confused. Is not your interpretation a "man-made thing" as much as any other? How can you criticize other interpretations as "man-made" while keeping your own interpretation free from that criticism, unless you are claiming special divine status for your interpretation?

    Now as for the "origin of evil" - you have taken a passage (Ezek 28) that is explicitly talking about the King of Tyre and have applied it figuratively to a being called "Satan". It looks like a "man-made SATAN model" to me. Of course, you did not invent this yourself. It is an old tradition amongst Bible interpreters. But why do you accept this traditional interpretation while so freely rejecting any interpretation that you don't like?

    There are a number of problems with your assertion that "this idea indicates that evil originated in ONE mind (Satan)". First, the Bible quotes God as saying "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7). Second, God's omniscience implies that he created Satan in such a way that Satan would ultimately be evil, so the origin of everything is ultimately the responsibility of the CREATOR. You diminish God when you say that anything could ORIGINATE outside of him (or so many Christians would argue, anyway). It's also a very simplistic understanding. We know nothing of the "origin of evil." You are taking fragments of ancient Hebrew literature and figuratively applying them to a poorly defined supernatural biblical character who is at times conflated with God. I don't think that's a good foundation for any real knowledge. How could you have any real confidence in such speculations?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    The idea that GOD is responsible for the murders and the killings in the Bible ignores this FACT of the origin of evil.
    Say what? Are you saying that God had no choice but to command his people to murder every man, woman, and child of the Midianites except the 32,000 sexy virgins, half of whom were distributed to the very soldiers who had just slaughtered every person they ever loved?

    This is the enduring mystery of the Christian Bible. It presents God as absolutely ENAMORED with violence, VIOLENCE and MORE VIOLENCE. It seems that his answer to every challenge. Kill everyone with a flood. Destroy two cities with fire and brimstone. Send in the Babylonians to destroy his temple and slaughter his people. And to sum it all up, have a big blood "supper" where all the people in heaven rejoice to watch vultures eating the flesh of the people hated by their own Creator:

    Revelation 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: 2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. 3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. ... 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    So just because the words say "GOD commanded the death of xyz" does not mean it is outside of the scope of the origins of evil - the avenging angel which destroys is sometimes attributed to GOD and sometimes attributed to Satan! There is even one story which is given two different sources in two different tellings of the same story! So we could deduct that one of the writers got it wrong or that the source of evil things is ALWAYS the SATAN - and so any deviation from that is just a man made perspective on the events.
    The fact that the Bible confuses God with Satan pretty much says it all.

    I have no idea how anyone could be satisfied with such sophistry. You appear to be putting Satan above God when you say that Satan really did the things the Bible attributes to God. And how does that fix anything anyway? God obviously could have stopped Satan from doing all that evil. Indeed, Job repeated shows that God gave Satan permission, which makes God responsible. And this is confirmed when God is quoted as taking responsibility for Job's destruction:
    Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
    You are playing fast and loose with the words of the Bible. They are putty in your hands. You mold them into whatever you want, even into meanings that are diametrically opposed to what they actually mean. How is it possible you can't see what you are doing?

    And this brings us back to "man-made doctrines." That's exactly what you have done. The Bible plainly attributes much evil to God, but you don't like that so you make up the doctrine that Satan was the real "origin" of evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    The Bible is not a simple book. By that I mean it is not written as black and white. The purpose of the Bible is to open the portal of wisdom to the other side. The INCAS the Mayans and many other cultures just seem to have disappeared leaving all their possessions behind. Highly intelligent people with little reason to just up and leave. I suggest that they give us examples of people who found a passage way to another world/dimension. The Bible is that kind of Book. It tells us that "This same Jesus who you have seen go into heaven will come back in like manner... Be ye also ready!" Acts 1:11/Matthew 24:44
    What makes you think they "left"? Where do you think they went? It seems you feel free to make up whatever wild speculations might enter your mind to fill every gap in your knowledge. It would be infinitely more likely that they were destroyed by a plague or famine than that they accessed secret wisdom and ascended to another dimension, don't you think?

    Now you say that the Bible is "that kind of book". What makes you say that? Have you known anyone who used it to ascend to a higher dimension? Don't your realize that your comments have no foundation in fact?

    Your quotation of Acts 1:11 is particularly ironic, because that is the verse Christian literalists use to justify their assertion about the literal return of Christ, but you don't believe the Bible is literal!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    1 Corinthians 15:51-55
    New International Version (NIV)

    51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[a]
    55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
    Where, O death, is your sting?”[b]
    Footnotes:
    a.1 Corinthians 15:54 Isaiah 25:8
    b.1 Corinthians 15:55 Hosea 13:14

    It is for this reason that the Bible was written. To develop the kind of faith which can cause a person to cross over to the other side!

    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    That's a lovely mystical interpretation. But is there any reason to believe it is true? And if it is true, why is the Bible written with so much crap in it that causes so much evil in the world? For example, why is it so filled with sexism that has oppressed women for two thousand years? That doesn't sound like a book designed to help people cross over to the other side. It sounds like an all to human book filled with human failings that has misled millions of people and caused immeasurable needless suffering in the world. Things only began to get better when people realized that God is NOT TRUSTWORTHY. We learned we have to rely on our own strength and intelligence if we want to survive. When people had to trust God, we died like flies from the plague. Only when we abandoned faith in a faithless God did we find the strength to discover antibiotics, and so we have saved millions of lives that God was perfectly happy to let die miserable deaths.

    I hope my words don't frustrate you. I'm just answering in my honest voice, telling you how things really look to me. I hope you speak the same to me.

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  6. #6
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    Start to Finish...

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Hey there Mystykal,

    Glad you appreciate the questions!

    But your answer seems a bit confused. Is not your interpretation a "man-made thing" as much as any other? How can you criticize other interpretations as "man-made" while keeping your own interpretation free from that criticism, unless you are claiming special divine status for your interpretation?

    Now as for the "origin of evil" - you have taken a passage (Ezek 28) that is explicitly talking about the King of Tyre and have applied it figuratively to a being called "Satan". It looks like a "man-made SATAN model" to me. Of course, you did not invent this yourself. It is an old tradition amongst Bible interpreters. But why do you accept this traditional interpretation while so freely rejecting any interpretation that you don't like?

    There are a number of problems with your assertion that "this idea indicates that evil originated in ONE mind (Satan)". First, the Bible quotes God as saying "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7). Second, God's omniscience implies that he created Satan in such a way that Satan would ultimately be evil, so the origin of everything is ultimately the responsibility of the CREATOR. You diminish God when you say that anything could ORIGINATE outside of him (or so many Christians would argue, anyway). It's also a very simplistic understanding. We know nothing of the "origin of evil." You are taking fragments of ancient Hebrew literature and figuratively applying them to a poorly defined supernatural biblical character who is at times conflated with God. I don't think that's a good foundation for any real knowledge. How could you have any real confidence in such speculations?


    Say what? Are you saying that God had no choice but to command his people to murder every man, woman, and child of the Midianites except the 32,000 sexy virgins, half of whom were distributed to the very soldiers who had just slaughtered every person they ever loved?

    This is the enduring mystery of the Christian Bible. It presents God as absolutely ENAMORED with violence, VIOLENCE and MORE VIOLENCE. It seems that his answer to every challenge. Kill everyone with a flood. Destroy two cities with fire and brimstone. Send in the Babylonians to destroy his temple and slaughter his people. And to sum it all up, have a big blood "supper" where all the people in heaven rejoice to watch vultures eating the flesh of the people hated by their own Creator:

    Revelation 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: 2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. 3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. ... 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


    The fact that the Bible confuses God with Satan pretty much says it all.

    I have no idea how anyone could be satisfied with such sophistry. You appear to be putting Satan above God when you say that Satan really did the things the Bible attributes to God. And how does that fix anything anyway? God obviously could have stopped Satan from doing all that evil. Indeed, Job repeated shows that God gave Satan permission, which makes God responsible. And this is confirmed when God is quoted as taking responsibility for Job's destruction:
    Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
    You are playing fast and loose with the words of the Bible. They are putty in your hands. You mold them into whatever you want, even into meanings that are diametrically opposed to what they actually mean. How is it possible you can't see what you are doing?

    And this brings us back to "man-made doctrines." That's exactly what you have done. The Bible plainly attributes much evil to God, but you don't like that so you make up the doctrine that Satan was the real "origin" of evil.


    What makes you think they "left"? Where do you think they went? It seems you feel free to make up whatever wild speculations might enter your mind to fill every gap in your knowledge. It would be infinitely more likely that they were destroyed by a plague or famine than that they accessed secret wisdom and ascended to another dimension, don't you think?

    Now you say that the Bible is "that kind of book". What makes you say that? Have you known anyone who used it to ascend to a higher dimension? Don't your realize that your comments have no foundation in fact?

    Your quotation of Acts 1:11 is particularly ironic, because that is the verse Christian literalists use to justify their assertion about the literal return of Christ, but you don't believe the Bible is literal!


    That's a lovely mystical interpretation. But is there any reason to believe it is true? And if it is true, why is the Bible written with so much crap in it that causes so much evil in the world? For example, why is it so filled with sexism that has oppressed women for two thousand years? That doesn't sound like a book designed to help people cross over to the other side. It sounds like an all to human book filled with human failings that has misled millions of people and caused immeasurable needless suffering in the world. Things only began to get better when people realized that God is NOT TRUSTWORTHY. We learned we have to rely on our own strength and intelligence if we want to survive. When people had to trust God, we died like flies from the plague. Only when we abandoned faith in a faithless God did we find the strength to discover antibiotics, and so we have saved millions of lives that God was perfectly happy to let die miserable deaths.

    I hope my words don't frustrate you. I'm just answering in my honest voice, telling you how things really look to me. I hope you speak the same to me.

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    Hi Richard:
    I really am glad you have laid out the different perspectives as you see them. it's all good! I am not intimidated by your questions.... I once was in your boat! I too have lived in that world... I just choose to live in the world of the Masters now! i have personally experienced so many unexplainable things whic are from "the other side" I do not hesitate to go there or to talk about it dispite all the naysayers. I does not matter. In the end it is only you and the Great Mystery Spirit which will tango! It is only a personal understanding of the Spiritual Truth which will save us in the end. Withut that experience we will come up short and be eternally lost. Gone. vanished. Like a candle flame blown out! When we could have had eternal life. Living in the presence of the One Life. The Master of all the universe. The Creator. If we just had stuck to the path of wisdom. The path which all the wisdomkeepers have walked. If we just had developed the kind of faith which can move a mountain - we would have been given the prize of that eternal glory filled life with all of our family and friends! It's that simple. Take it or lieave it! That's the choice we each have to make. I for one, have chosen LIFE!

    As to your quesions.... I will try and answer them. I may have to come back and add some things later... so re-read this section several times if you care to.

    You said:
    Is not your interpretation a "man-made thing" as much as any other? How can you criticize other interpretations as "man-made" while keeping your own interpretation free from that criticism, unless you are claiming special divine status for your interpretation?

    --- The difference between a common person and a "Christian" or a Master or a Mystic is this: The subtle powers which are not obvious to the natural eye are visible to them. We have many stories in all parts of the world about the mystical unexplainable things which even defy scientific explanation. Sure there are fakes! But I am talking about the real Miracles of Jesus, Elijah, and the like. You think that no one was ever inspired by the Spirit to make an axe head float? You think Jesus never walked on water? You think Peter did not walk on water? So since you do not believe in GOD of the Bible or any GOD which can be known, you just ignore a world of "spooky" things!

    So, as you know the "new creation" or creature in Christ is supposed to have different abilities and mind/thoughts. This Spiritual change is often faked! But that does not negate the True transformation which DOES take place in the life of a person who has been united with the Master! I guess in that sense I would say that the Bible can be a book of controversy or a book full of gems of truth. It depends on the receiver's Spiritual connections. The Spirit does not change - people do!

    YOU said:There are a number of problems with your assertion that "this idea indicates that evil originated in ONE mind (Satan)". First, the Bible quotes God as saying "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7). Second, God's omniscience implies that he created Satan in such a way that Satan would ultimately be evil, so the origin of everything is ultimately the responsibility of the CREATOR. You diminish God when you say that anything could ORIGINATE outside of him (or so many Christians would argue, anyway). It's also a very simplistic understanding. We know nothing of the "origin of evil." You are taking fragments of ancient Hebrew literature and figuratively applying them to a poorly defined supernatural biblical character who is at times conflated with God. I don't think that's a good foundation for any real knowledge. How could you have any real confidence in such speculations?

    Richard right off the bat let's get something straight!... YOU KNOW that the word evil in Isaiah 45:7 is an ENGLISH word for multiple words in Hebrew! I don't have time for your ridiculus supposition that GOD CREATED EVIL since GOD's Omniscience PROHIBITS ANY FREE WILL. You know that is complete nonesense. Now the verse you quoted is:

    Isaiah 45:7 (AMP) | In Context | Whole Chapter
    7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace [national well-being] and I create [physical] evil (calamity); I am the Lord, Who does all these things.

    Footnotes:Isaiah 45:7 Moral evil proceeds from the will of men, but physical evil proceeds from the will of God.Isaiah 45:7XBackXIsaiah 45:7 (CEB) | In Context |
    7 I form light and create darkness,
    make prosperity and create doom;
    I am the Lord, who does all these things.

    YOU Said: You are playing fast and loose with the words of the Bible. They are putty in your hands. You mold them into whatever you want, even into meanings that are diametrically opposed to what they actually mean. How is it possible you can't see what you are doing?

    And this brings us back to "man-made doctrines." That's exactly what you have done. The Bible plainly attributes much evil to God, but you don't like that so you make up the doctrine that Satan was the real "origin" of evil.


    So, it is well known that early on in the Bible all things were credited to GOD. The later Greek notions of spliting light and darkness with good and evil and the whole duality notions was later applied by the translators to the Old Testament translation of the Septuagint in Greek. So your argument that I somehow am "diminishing" GOD's power in any way is wrong! You are the one who is simplistic! Your argument would be defeated by a first year student of theology! I am NOT playing with the WORDS of the BIBLE - YOU ARE! Enough said.

    In my opinion all doctrines per se are "man-made". There is a difference between "doctrines" and "Truth". Truth can be found in doctrines but doctrines can change. truth does not! you are consuming terms. I think your logic is
    Fallacious and down right absurd. But you act like you know the Bible when in fact you don't really understand the writing styles used or the meaning of the words themselves! Or you are just messing with me....

    As to the Inca/Mayan population: YOU said: What makes you think they "left"? Where do you think they went? It seems you feel free to make up whatever wild speculations might enter your mind to fill every gap in your knowledge. It would be infinitely more likely that they were destroyed by a plague or famine than that they accessed secret wisdom and ascended to another dimension, don't you think?

    Well maybe! But there are no known written materials indicating that from a highly sophisticated group and their writings that are here, talk about strange other-worldly beings.

    http://www.carnegiemuseums.org/cmag/.../feature1.html

    How an Inca society that was so rich and so well advanced in the arts of civilization could suddenly disappear from the world scene between the 1530s and 1570s is a critical question. The ruined Inca buildings, agricultural terraces for farming, and amazing roads of stone remained, but the artifacts and the detailed records of their way of life took a long time to be discovered and analyzed.

    “Night fell at noon”: The Spanish Conquest
    The central fact governing the disappearance of evidence about the historic Incas was the Spanish Conquest that began in the 1530s. Within a few decades, the daily objects, ancestral materials, and treasures of Inca civilization were methodically destroyed or removed by the Conquistadors. After Francisco Pizarro and his indiscriminate band of soldiers sacked the Inca capital of Cuzco in 1533, the other major Inca cities were soon overcome, and the gold and silver treasures of the empire were collected, melted, and converted into bars, and sent back to the treasury in Spain. “Whatever can be burned, is burned; the rest is broken,” reported one Spanish chronicler. One Inca observation that survived was, “Night fell at noon.”

    Gold hidden in the national vaults was the economic foundation of Medieval Europe, and in the 14th and 15th centuries most of it came from the west coast of Africa. But in the 16th century, South America presented a new stream of wealth to the mother country, Spain. The Conquistadors in the New World not only gathered up all the precious objects, but they continually sought something more, the mythic El Dorado—a hoard of gold at the end of the rainbow—to enrich the Spanish Crown. The conquest of Montezuma and the Aztecs in Mexico by Cortez in 1519 had set an example that a few years later was followed by the Conquistadors in the Andes.

    Inca civilization was also ripe for European exploitation in the early 1500s. A smallpox epidemic introduced from Europe had weakened the Andean populations, killing the last major Inca ruler, and there was a civil war between two competing contenders for the throne. It was difficult for Inca clans to unite against a common enemy.

    In addition, the Inca made disastrous military mistakes. They did not at first retreat into the mountains to fight the Spaniards, where they would have had an advantage, but used clubs and short swords to fight Conquistadors wearing armor and riding horses (an animal that had never been seen before). The Spanish used deadly steel swords, and fired canons and other firearms. The Incas were slaughtered by the thousands, and their rulers executed in public. Soon all the Inca cities had been looted and ruined, and the ruling class was gone.
    Still, there remained a legend, kept alive by the Spanish chroniclers, of a “lost city” in the jungle, bypassed by the conquerors, where Inca cultural materials survived. It was this centuries-old legend that Hiram Bingham, like many others, was ready to believe. Machu Picchu, found to be nearly inaccessible on a mountaintop, seemed to be the perfect lost city.

    Later archaeology and research in the 20th century have continued to refine our understanding and theories about the lost Inca culture. Whether Richard L. Burger, director of the Peabody Museum from 1995 through the end of 2002, and his co-curator Lucy C. Salazar, have finally solved the mystery of Machu Picchu, is up to visitors to the exhibit to decide.

    =======
    http://io9.com/5928085/10-civilizati...-circumstances

    The Maya are perhaps the classic example of a civilization that was completely lost, its great monuments, cities and roads swallowed up by the central American jungles, and its peoples scattered to small villages. Though the languages and traditions of the Maya still survive up to the present day, the civilization's peak was during the first millennium AD, when their greatest architectural feats and massive agricultural projects covered a vast region in the Yucatán — today, an area stretching from Mexico to Guatemala and Belize. One of the largest Mesoamerican civilizations, the Maya made extensive use of writing, math, an elaborate calendar, and sophisticated engineering to build their pyramids and terraced farms. Though it's often said that the Maya civilization began a mysterious decline in roughly the year 900, a great deal of evidence points to climate change in the Yucatán combined with internecine warfare, which resulted in famine and abandonment of the city centers.
    =====
    So that is the "official" rendition which ignores all the writings of these ancient civilizations and tries to explain the demise by some common natrual means.
    But archeologists cannot do that to the Bible Story if Enoch! They cannot discredit so easily the story of Elijah and the "firery chariot". These individuals did find a way to "cross over to the other side" without dying! Of course you can buty your head in the sand and ignore the stories or you can try and understand the hidden significance of such ideas. Like a formula which must be understood before it can be used to create/alter reality the Hopi N.Am. natives tell of a creation story and of spirits and gods which interacted with people. All made-up fantasy? I doubt it... Considering that the shamans of all cultures even Jesus - tell us of "another place" from which they came and how they are going back!... "If Christ be not risen, then your faith is in vain." 1 Corinthians 15:14
    And there it is again!... Faith is the one ingredient which opens up the passage way "to the other side!" Take it or leave it! Your gain or your loss!

    YOU Said "Your quotation of Acts 1:11 is particularly ironic, because that is the verse Christian literalists use to justify their assertion about the literal return of Christ, but you don't believe the Bible is literal!

    That's a lovely mystical interpretation. But is there any reason to believe it is true? And if it is true, why is the Bible written with so much crap in it that causes so much evil in the world?"



    Acts 1:11 International Standard Version
    They asked, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up toward heaven? This same Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you saw him go up into heaven."


    Literalism... I did not say I don't take some of the Bible to be literal... I said I do not think that the Bible must be understod in a literal sense...in order to see the formula for immortality. In other words the Bible stories are much more than stories. They hold "formulas" by which we can perform "magic" and change the future and access immortality. That is NOT what most "Christians" today believe. The word "literalism" has taken on a theological meaning which I do not agree with in the sense that, the underlying riddle IS the important issue - not the story itself. Having said that, it does not imply that the story is not FACTUAL. The whole basis for the Bible is that it is "inspired". I do not believe in "word" inspiration. The Bible then should only be read in the original language in which it was written.... Like the Koran! This problem of inspiration is at the heart of the crap you attribute to "Christianity" and the Bible - with all of its errors and sexism. The FACT that the holographs exist at all should indicate that the words are not the "inspired" part of the Bible but rather the Author and the ideas hidden in the verses arrangement is where the truth ACTUALLY resides. Think about that!

    The bottom line is this... The universe was either created or evolved... GOD is real or just a fake memory in the mind of man...The truth is present in the world or it does not exist..."God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" Hebrews 1:1,2

    Take it or leave it! Faith is the key which unlocks Heaven's mysteries.

    Namaste,

    Mystykal



    PS Remember Elijah! "If the Lord be GOD Hear ye him!
    Last edited by Mystykal; 08-17-2013 at 10:08 PM.

  7. #7
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    Go Back....

    Richard: Go back and look at my response way below! I hope that gives you pause... Think about it!

    Namaste,

    Mystykal

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    If there is a God, and there is a judgment day after death, I think that God will applaud all of those who refused to condone and justify biblical violence, or accept the abuse attributed to God’s name via the Bible. If a God exists, compassion and kindness will be the hallmarks of his/her name, not whether someone praised and worshiped a biblical portrayal of an ill tempered god that demanded to be glorified for atrocious behavior. People who stand up for the equal rights of all humans and used their intellect to help a suffering world will be the ones who are rewarded for a job well done, whether or not they acknowledge the existence of a specific god recorded in the pages of the Bible.

    It seems many of the teachings of the Bible focus on the praise, adoration and worship of its god at the expense of empathy, and the priorities of equal human justice. Goodness and respect is lost, replaced with the perverse idea of denying people equality based on their gender. What seems to be forgotten in the minds of those who are steeped in religious dogma, is that the ideals of true morality and compassion are acted out in the lives of countless individuals, who let their actions speak instead of the proclamations of a tribal god. They are the ones who should receive the highest praise and the greatest reward at judgment day whether or not an expression of acknowledgment was given to a particular imaginary god. No true god would ever create life on a foundation of inequality; any such endeavor is doomed to fail which is abundantly clear when we look at the course that history has taken when these biblical practices of injustice have been implemented.


    Rose
    Hello Rose
    The subject of inequality is a study of its own. In the plan of God there is no inequality ultimately. You are familiar with the quote from Galations 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Being in Christ now in this life is to bring equality. This is in keeping with the words of Jesus concerning resurrection (Matt 22:30); For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
    . For marriage not to be necessary, there must be no differentiation of sex, therefore they will all will be the same.

    Given that we are moving towards true equality not differentiated by sex but all being the same (sexless?) we have a situation where it was necessary for God to make male and female. Even in the animal kingdom, the male and the female of the species have anatomical differences. We are scratching at the surface of God's wisdom in unravelling the mysteries of how things work (biologically speaking). We also know that there are wide differences between different men and different women and a certain amount of overlap in which men can be effeminate and some women appear masculin. We know we can alter the balance by changing the level of hormones.

    In one way, though sexually different and exhibiting feminine and masculin quatlies in both sexes, the one thing that unites us is our ability to reason. We all have brains that function the same. We all can choose to do something or not do something. When it comes to pleasing ourselves, our sex does not play a part. We can all choose whether to have the mind of Christ and the advantages that can bring to society or we can choose to please ourselves and been like those who Paul advised young Timothy to turn away from (2Tim 3:2); For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

    First of all, you have to blame most of the evil in this world to man. It is man who sinned first and brought the penalty of death on himself. God is the righteous judge and sets the penalty and administers justice. This is the part you distort in order to justify blaming God. I am responsible for my own actions and it would be a mistake for me to blame God for the bad things that happen to me because of the decision I made. I blame men for the ills and their wrong doing against me which can have long-term consequences. I do not blame God for that which man must be blamed for.

    When God gives up on people for being reprobates, that must tell us something about those people. Are you now a reprobate in God eyes? You act as though you could be in my eyes. There is opportunity for you to see the error of your thinking and repent. It is entirely up to you. Whatever you decide to do and do, it will not in any way divert God from his plan and the purpose he has for this earth and the creation upon it. That is something we can all be a part of and it is our choice, once we know, whether to accept it or reject it. By comparison, what God has on offer for the future outweighs anything that has happened in the past for which you blame God. God is far wiser than you can even imagine and compared to man's wisdom, man's wisdom is as nothing.

    All the best
    David

  9. #9
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    Male and Female Created He them!

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Rose
    The subject of inequality is a study of its own. In the plan of God there is no inequality ultimately. You are familiar with the quote from Galations 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Being in Christ now in this life is to bring equality. This is in keeping with the words of Jesus concerning resurrection (Matt 22:30); For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
    . For marriage not to be necessary, there must be no differentiation of sex, therefore they will all will be the same.

    Given that we are moving towards true equality not differentiated by sex but all being the same (sexless?) we have a situation where it was necessary for God to make male and female. Even in the animal kingdom, the male and the female of the species have anatomical differences. We are scratching at the surface of God's wisdom in unravelling the mysteries of how things work (biologically speaking). We also know that there are wide differences between different men and different women and a certain amount of overlap in which men can be effeminate and some women appear masculin. We know we can alter the balance by changing the level of hormones.

    In one way, though sexually different and exhibiting feminine and masculin quatlies in both sexes, the one thing that unites us is our ability to reason. We all have brains that function the same. We all can choose to do something or not do something. When it comes to pleasing ourselves, our sex does not play a part. We can all choose whether to have the mind of Christ and the advantages that can bring to society or we can choose to please ourselves and been like those who Paul advised young Timothy to turn away from (2Tim 3:2); For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

    First of all, you have to blame most of the evil in this world to man. It is man who sinned first and brought the penalty of death on himself. God is the righteous judge and sets the penalty and administers justice. This is the part you distort in order to justify blaming God. I am responsible for my own actions and it would be a mistake for me to blame God for the bad things that happen to me because of the decision I made. I blame men for the ills and their wrong doing against me which can have long-term consequences. I do not blame God for that which man must be blamed for.

    When God gives up on people for being reprobates, that must tell us something about those people. Are you now a reprobate in God eyes? You act as though you could be in my eyes. There is opportunity for you to see the error of your thinking and repent. It is entirely up to you. Whatever you decide to do and do, it will not in any way divert God from his plan and the purpose he has for this earth and the creation upon it. That is something we can all be a part of and it is our choice, once we know, whether to accept it or reject it. By comparison, what God has on offer for the future outweighs anything that has happened in the past for which you blame God. God is far wiser than you can even imagine and compared to man's wisdom, man's wisdom is as nothing.

    All the best
    David
    Hi David:

    So are you saying that eventhough GOD created man and woman male and female in a sinless world/garden that in heaven and the new earth and for all eternity there is no distinction between the sexes? What happens to Adam and Eve when GOD creates a new earth and gives Adam and Eve back their home and their family? Are you suggesting that the animals will be sex neutral as well?
    If GOD made man/woman after His likeness then does it not stand to reason that sex is a part of the plan? Just because there is no marriage in heaven that would suggest that marriage is man-made as the Sabbath and the new moon are mentioned from creation and exist in the earth made new! So marriage is not eternal meaning it is not part of the original plan of GOD!

    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Last edited by Mystykal; 08-11-2013 at 07:18 PM.

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    The Mystery of why the Bible exists

    To: Richard

    "Understand this if nothing else: spiritual freedom and oneness with the Tao are not randomly bestowed gifts, but the rewards of conscious self-transformation and self-evolution."

    Although the above statement is Asian in origin it brings a perspective to the table which can be applied to the writings of the Bible. The idea is that, Spiritual oneness with the Ultimate CAN be achieved ONLY by self-transformation.

    The Bible says "Be ye therefore transformed by the re-newing of your mind." The context is as follows:

    Romans 12:2
    1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. 3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.…

    Sothat FAITH is a factor in the Spriitural renewal of the mind so that we may know the will of the Divine Mind which is the power behind all things true. It is of little value to argue over the foundation which has been laid by the mystics of all ages and find their culmination in the words of One who holds the keys to life and death - Christ Jesus the Saviour of mankind. Take it or leave it! In the end each individual must decide what to believe. The Holy Spirit is the Guide which, if we listen in stillness - will guide us to all truth leading to life eternal. I find this reality to be the ultimate reality! The process intriques me and enlightens me each day! I can't say enough good things about my life as it is now - I'm on my way to the land of pure bliss! PTL!

    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Last edited by Mystykal; 08-13-2013 at 07:20 PM.

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