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  1. #1
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    If there is a God

    If there is a God, and there is a judgment day after death, I think that God will applaud all of those who refused to condone and justify biblical violence, or accept the abuse attributed to God’s name via the Bible. If a God exists, compassion and kindness will be the hallmarks of his/her name, not whether someone praised and worshiped a biblical portrayal of an ill tempered god that demanded to be glorified for atrocious behavior. People who stand up for the equal rights of all humans and used their intellect to help a suffering world will be the ones who are rewarded for a job well done, whether or not they acknowledge the existence of a specific god recorded in the pages of the Bible.

    It seems many of the teachings of the Bible focus on the praise, adoration and worship of its god at the expense of empathy, and the priorities of equal human justice. Goodness and respect is lost, replaced with the perverse idea of denying people equality based on their gender. What seems to be forgotten in the minds of those who are steeped in religious dogma, is that the ideals of true morality and compassion are acted out in the lives of countless individuals, who let their actions speak instead of the proclamations of a tribal god. They are the ones who should receive the highest praise and the greatest reward at judgment day whether or not an expression of acknowledgment was given to a particular imaginary god. No true god would ever create life on a foundation of inequality; any such endeavor is doomed to fail which is abundantly clear when we look at the course that history has taken when these biblical practices of injustice have been implemented.


    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
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  2. #2
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    GOD IS GOOD...ALL The Time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    If there is a God, and there is a judgment day after death, I think that God will applaud all of those who refused to condone and justify biblical violence, or accept the abuse attributed to God’s name via the Bible. If a God exists, compassion and kindness will be the hallmarks of his/her name, not whether someone praised and worshiped a biblical portrayal of an ill tempered god that demanded to be glorified for atrocious behavior. People who stand up for the equal rights of all humans and used their intellect to help a suffering world will be the ones who are rewarded for a job well done, whether or not they acknowledge the existence of a specific god recorded in the pages of the Bible.

    It seems many of the teachings of the Bible focus on the praise, adoration and worship of its god at the expense of empathy, and the priorities of equal human justice. Goodness and respect is lost, replaced with the perverse idea of denying people equality based on their gender. What seems to be forgotten in the minds of those who are steeped in religious dogma, is that the ideals of true morality and compassion are acted out in the lives of countless individuals, who let their actions speak instead of the proclamations of a tribal god. They are the ones who should receive the highest praise and the greatest reward at judgment day whether or not an expression of acknowledgment was given to a particular imaginary god. No true god would ever create life on a foundation of inequality; any such endeavor is doomed to fail which is abundantly clear when we look at the course that history has taken when these biblical practices of injustice have been implemented.


    Rose
    Hi Rose:
    I know Richard does not believe in a Satan/Devil per se.... And maybe you don't as well. But isn't it POSSIBLE that all the "bad" things attributed to GOD in the Bible could have ACTUALLY been the work of the Devil? Why do you insist on a narrow understanding of the stories which you admit are myths and then you act like GOD is the origin of evil deeds done in the name of GOD! Perhaps the evil attributed to GOD is in fact the work of Satan the "accuser of the brethren".
    GOD IS Love! GOD is good....All The Time!

    Just a thought...

    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Last edited by Mystykal; 08-11-2013 at 05:30 PM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    If there is a God, and there is a judgment day after death, I think that God will applaud all of those who refused to condone and justify biblical violence, or accept the abuse attributed to God’s name via the Bible. If a God exists, compassion and kindness will be the hallmarks of his/her name, not whether someone praised and worshiped a biblical portrayal of an ill tempered god that demanded to be glorified for atrocious behavior. People who stand up for the equal rights of all humans and used their intellect to help a suffering world will be the ones who are rewarded for a job well done, whether or not they acknowledge the existence of a specific god recorded in the pages of the Bible.

    It seems many of the teachings of the Bible focus on the praise, adoration and worship of its god at the expense of empathy, and the priorities of equal human justice. Goodness and respect is lost, replaced with the perverse idea of denying people equality based on their gender. What seems to be forgotten in the minds of those who are steeped in religious dogma, is that the ideals of true morality and compassion are acted out in the lives of countless individuals, who let their actions speak instead of the proclamations of a tribal god. They are the ones who should receive the highest praise and the greatest reward at judgment day whether or not an expression of acknowledgment was given to a particular imaginary god. No true god would ever create life on a foundation of inequality; any such endeavor is doomed to fail which is abundantly clear when we look at the course that history has taken when these biblical practices of injustice have been implemented.


    Rose
    Hello Rose
    The subject of inequality is a study of its own. In the plan of God there is no inequality ultimately. You are familiar with the quote from Galations 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Being in Christ now in this life is to bring equality. This is in keeping with the words of Jesus concerning resurrection (Matt 22:30); For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
    . For marriage not to be necessary, there must be no differentiation of sex, therefore they will all will be the same.

    Given that we are moving towards true equality not differentiated by sex but all being the same (sexless?) we have a situation where it was necessary for God to make male and female. Even in the animal kingdom, the male and the female of the species have anatomical differences. We are scratching at the surface of God's wisdom in unravelling the mysteries of how things work (biologically speaking). We also know that there are wide differences between different men and different women and a certain amount of overlap in which men can be effeminate and some women appear masculin. We know we can alter the balance by changing the level of hormones.

    In one way, though sexually different and exhibiting feminine and masculin quatlies in both sexes, the one thing that unites us is our ability to reason. We all have brains that function the same. We all can choose to do something or not do something. When it comes to pleasing ourselves, our sex does not play a part. We can all choose whether to have the mind of Christ and the advantages that can bring to society or we can choose to please ourselves and been like those who Paul advised young Timothy to turn away from (2Tim 3:2); For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

    First of all, you have to blame most of the evil in this world to man. It is man who sinned first and brought the penalty of death on himself. God is the righteous judge and sets the penalty and administers justice. This is the part you distort in order to justify blaming God. I am responsible for my own actions and it would be a mistake for me to blame God for the bad things that happen to me because of the decision I made. I blame men for the ills and their wrong doing against me which can have long-term consequences. I do not blame God for that which man must be blamed for.

    When God gives up on people for being reprobates, that must tell us something about those people. Are you now a reprobate in God eyes? You act as though you could be in my eyes. There is opportunity for you to see the error of your thinking and repent. It is entirely up to you. Whatever you decide to do and do, it will not in any way divert God from his plan and the purpose he has for this earth and the creation upon it. That is something we can all be a part of and it is our choice, once we know, whether to accept it or reject it. By comparison, what God has on offer for the future outweighs anything that has happened in the past for which you blame God. God is far wiser than you can even imagine and compared to man's wisdom, man's wisdom is as nothing.

    All the best
    David

  4. #4
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    Male and Female Created He them!

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Rose
    The subject of inequality is a study of its own. In the plan of God there is no inequality ultimately. You are familiar with the quote from Galations 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Being in Christ now in this life is to bring equality. This is in keeping with the words of Jesus concerning resurrection (Matt 22:30); For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
    . For marriage not to be necessary, there must be no differentiation of sex, therefore they will all will be the same.

    Given that we are moving towards true equality not differentiated by sex but all being the same (sexless?) we have a situation where it was necessary for God to make male and female. Even in the animal kingdom, the male and the female of the species have anatomical differences. We are scratching at the surface of God's wisdom in unravelling the mysteries of how things work (biologically speaking). We also know that there are wide differences between different men and different women and a certain amount of overlap in which men can be effeminate and some women appear masculin. We know we can alter the balance by changing the level of hormones.

    In one way, though sexually different and exhibiting feminine and masculin quatlies in both sexes, the one thing that unites us is our ability to reason. We all have brains that function the same. We all can choose to do something or not do something. When it comes to pleasing ourselves, our sex does not play a part. We can all choose whether to have the mind of Christ and the advantages that can bring to society or we can choose to please ourselves and been like those who Paul advised young Timothy to turn away from (2Tim 3:2); For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

    First of all, you have to blame most of the evil in this world to man. It is man who sinned first and brought the penalty of death on himself. God is the righteous judge and sets the penalty and administers justice. This is the part you distort in order to justify blaming God. I am responsible for my own actions and it would be a mistake for me to blame God for the bad things that happen to me because of the decision I made. I blame men for the ills and their wrong doing against me which can have long-term consequences. I do not blame God for that which man must be blamed for.

    When God gives up on people for being reprobates, that must tell us something about those people. Are you now a reprobate in God eyes? You act as though you could be in my eyes. There is opportunity for you to see the error of your thinking and repent. It is entirely up to you. Whatever you decide to do and do, it will not in any way divert God from his plan and the purpose he has for this earth and the creation upon it. That is something we can all be a part of and it is our choice, once we know, whether to accept it or reject it. By comparison, what God has on offer for the future outweighs anything that has happened in the past for which you blame God. God is far wiser than you can even imagine and compared to man's wisdom, man's wisdom is as nothing.

    All the best
    David
    Hi David:

    So are you saying that eventhough GOD created man and woman male and female in a sinless world/garden that in heaven and the new earth and for all eternity there is no distinction between the sexes? What happens to Adam and Eve when GOD creates a new earth and gives Adam and Eve back their home and their family? Are you suggesting that the animals will be sex neutral as well?
    If GOD made man/woman after His likeness then does it not stand to reason that sex is a part of the plan? Just because there is no marriage in heaven that would suggest that marriage is man-made as the Sabbath and the new moon are mentioned from creation and exist in the earth made new! So marriage is not eternal meaning it is not part of the original plan of GOD!

    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Last edited by Mystykal; 08-11-2013 at 07:18 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    Hi Rose:
    I know Richard does not believe in a Satan/Devil per se.... And maybe you don't as well. But isn't it POSSIBLE that all the "bad" things attributed to GOD in the Bible could have ACTUALLY been the work of the Devil? Why do you insist on a narrow understanding of the stories which you admit are myths and then you act like GOD is the origin of evil deeds done in the name of GOD! Perhaps the evil attributed to GOD is in fact the work of Satan the "accuser of the brethren".
    GOD IS Love! GOD is good....All The Time!

    Just a thought...

    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Hey there Mystykal,

    I'm confused. If all the bad things attributed to God in the Bible were really the work of the Devil, then why does the Bible say God did it? Wouldn't that make the Bible a blasphemous lie? Why would anyone believe a word it says? Indeed, your comment suggests to me that you really don't believe anything the Bible says if it doesn't fit your own ideas about GOD.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Hey there Mystykal,

    I'm confused. If all the bad things attributed to God in the Bible were really the work of the Devil, then why does the Bible say God did it? Wouldn't that make the Bible a blasphemous lie? Why would anyone believe a word it says? Indeed, your comment suggests to me that you really don't believe anything the Bible says if it doesn't fit your own ideas about GOD.

    All the best,

    Richard
    Hi Richard:

    All good questions there! As you know, the development of the "GOD Model" in the Bible is a man-made thing. GOD did not "write" the Bible. So the words themselves can be misunderstood based on how people try and twist the stories and the outcomes to match their notions of GOD. But if we just look at the information from a distance it is easy to make out the trends and the indications of thought as to the origin of ideas.

    So that when the Bible says "Thou was perfect in all thy ways until iniquity was found in thee" - this idea indicates that evil originated in ONE mind (Satan) and spread from there. The idea that GOD is responsible for the murders and the killings in the Bible ignores this FACT of the origin of evil.

    So just because the words say "GOD commanded the death of xyz" does not mean it is outside of the scope of the origins of evil - the avenging angel which destroys is sometimes attributed to GOD and sometimes attributed to Satan! There is even one story which is given two different sources in two different tellings of the same story! So we could deduct that one of the writers got it wrong or that the source of evil things is ALWAYS the SATAN - and so any deviation from that is just a man made perspective on the events.

    The Bible is not a simple book. By that I mean it is not written as black and white. The purpose of the Bible is to open the portal of wisdom to the other side. The INCAS the Mayans and many other cultures just seem to have disappeared leaving all their possessions behind. Highly intelligent people with little reason to just up and leave. I suggest that they give us examples of people who found a passage way to another world/dimension. The Bible is that kind of Book. It tells us that "This same Jesus who you have seen go into heaven will come back in like manner... Be ye also ready!" Acts 1:11/Matthew 24:44

    1 Corinthians 15:51-55
    New International Version (NIV)

    51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[a]
    55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
    Where, O death, is your sting?”[b]
    Footnotes:
    a.1 Corinthians 15:54 Isaiah 25:8
    b.1 Corinthians 15:55 Hosea 13:14

    It is for this reason that the Bible was written. To develop the kind of faith which can cause a person to cross over to the other side!

    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Last edited by Mystykal; 08-13-2013 at 07:22 PM.

  7. #7
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    The Mystery of why the Bible exists

    To: Richard

    "Understand this if nothing else: spiritual freedom and oneness with the Tao are not randomly bestowed gifts, but the rewards of conscious self-transformation and self-evolution."

    Although the above statement is Asian in origin it brings a perspective to the table which can be applied to the writings of the Bible. The idea is that, Spiritual oneness with the Ultimate CAN be achieved ONLY by self-transformation.

    The Bible says "Be ye therefore transformed by the re-newing of your mind." The context is as follows:

    Romans 12:2
    1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. 3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.…

    Sothat FAITH is a factor in the Spriitural renewal of the mind so that we may know the will of the Divine Mind which is the power behind all things true. It is of little value to argue over the foundation which has been laid by the mystics of all ages and find their culmination in the words of One who holds the keys to life and death - Christ Jesus the Saviour of mankind. Take it or leave it! In the end each individual must decide what to believe. The Holy Spirit is the Guide which, if we listen in stillness - will guide us to all truth leading to life eternal. I find this reality to be the ultimate reality! The process intriques me and enlightens me each day! I can't say enough good things about my life as it is now - I'm on my way to the land of pure bliss! PTL!

    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Last edited by Mystykal; 08-13-2013 at 07:20 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    Hi Richard:

    All good questions there! As you know, the development of the "GOD Model" in the Bible is a man-made thing. GOD did not "write" the Bible. So the words themselves can be misunderstood based on how people try and twist the stories and the outcomes to match their notions of GOD. But if we just look at the information from a distance it is easy to make out the trends and the indications of thought as to the origin of ideas.

    So that when the Bible says "Thou was perfect in all thy ways until iniquity was found in thee" - this idea indicates that evil originated in ONE mind (Satan) and spread from there. The idea that GOD is responsible for the murders and the killings in the Bible ignores this FACT of the origin of evil.
    Hey there Mystykal,

    Glad you appreciate the questions!

    But your answer seems a bit confused. Is not your interpretation a "man-made thing" as much as any other? How can you criticize other interpretations as "man-made" while keeping your own interpretation free from that criticism, unless you are claiming special divine status for your interpretation?

    Now as for the "origin of evil" - you have taken a passage (Ezek 28) that is explicitly talking about the King of Tyre and have applied it figuratively to a being called "Satan". It looks like a "man-made SATAN model" to me. Of course, you did not invent this yourself. It is an old tradition amongst Bible interpreters. But why do you accept this traditional interpretation while so freely rejecting any interpretation that you don't like?

    There are a number of problems with your assertion that "this idea indicates that evil originated in ONE mind (Satan)". First, the Bible quotes God as saying "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7). Second, God's omniscience implies that he created Satan in such a way that Satan would ultimately be evil, so the origin of everything is ultimately the responsibility of the CREATOR. You diminish God when you say that anything could ORIGINATE outside of him (or so many Christians would argue, anyway). It's also a very simplistic understanding. We know nothing of the "origin of evil." You are taking fragments of ancient Hebrew literature and figuratively applying them to a poorly defined supernatural biblical character who is at times conflated with God. I don't think that's a good foundation for any real knowledge. How could you have any real confidence in such speculations?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    The idea that GOD is responsible for the murders and the killings in the Bible ignores this FACT of the origin of evil.
    Say what? Are you saying that God had no choice but to command his people to murder every man, woman, and child of the Midianites except the 32,000 sexy virgins, half of whom were distributed to the very soldiers who had just slaughtered every person they ever loved?

    This is the enduring mystery of the Christian Bible. It presents God as absolutely ENAMORED with violence, VIOLENCE and MORE VIOLENCE. It seems that his answer to every challenge. Kill everyone with a flood. Destroy two cities with fire and brimstone. Send in the Babylonians to destroy his temple and slaughter his people. And to sum it all up, have a big blood "supper" where all the people in heaven rejoice to watch vultures eating the flesh of the people hated by their own Creator:

    Revelation 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: 2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. 3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. ... 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    So just because the words say "GOD commanded the death of xyz" does not mean it is outside of the scope of the origins of evil - the avenging angel which destroys is sometimes attributed to GOD and sometimes attributed to Satan! There is even one story which is given two different sources in two different tellings of the same story! So we could deduct that one of the writers got it wrong or that the source of evil things is ALWAYS the SATAN - and so any deviation from that is just a man made perspective on the events.
    The fact that the Bible confuses God with Satan pretty much says it all.

    I have no idea how anyone could be satisfied with such sophistry. You appear to be putting Satan above God when you say that Satan really did the things the Bible attributes to God. And how does that fix anything anyway? God obviously could have stopped Satan from doing all that evil. Indeed, Job repeated shows that God gave Satan permission, which makes God responsible. And this is confirmed when God is quoted as taking responsibility for Job's destruction:
    Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
    You are playing fast and loose with the words of the Bible. They are putty in your hands. You mold them into whatever you want, even into meanings that are diametrically opposed to what they actually mean. How is it possible you can't see what you are doing?

    And this brings us back to "man-made doctrines." That's exactly what you have done. The Bible plainly attributes much evil to God, but you don't like that so you make up the doctrine that Satan was the real "origin" of evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    The Bible is not a simple book. By that I mean it is not written as black and white. The purpose of the Bible is to open the portal of wisdom to the other side. The INCAS the Mayans and many other cultures just seem to have disappeared leaving all their possessions behind. Highly intelligent people with little reason to just up and leave. I suggest that they give us examples of people who found a passage way to another world/dimension. The Bible is that kind of Book. It tells us that "This same Jesus who you have seen go into heaven will come back in like manner... Be ye also ready!" Acts 1:11/Matthew 24:44
    What makes you think they "left"? Where do you think they went? It seems you feel free to make up whatever wild speculations might enter your mind to fill every gap in your knowledge. It would be infinitely more likely that they were destroyed by a plague or famine than that they accessed secret wisdom and ascended to another dimension, don't you think?

    Now you say that the Bible is "that kind of book". What makes you say that? Have you known anyone who used it to ascend to a higher dimension? Don't your realize that your comments have no foundation in fact?

    Your quotation of Acts 1:11 is particularly ironic, because that is the verse Christian literalists use to justify their assertion about the literal return of Christ, but you don't believe the Bible is literal!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    1 Corinthians 15:51-55
    New International Version (NIV)

    51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[a]
    55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
    Where, O death, is your sting?”[b]
    Footnotes:
    a.1 Corinthians 15:54 Isaiah 25:8
    b.1 Corinthians 15:55 Hosea 13:14

    It is for this reason that the Bible was written. To develop the kind of faith which can cause a person to cross over to the other side!

    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    That's a lovely mystical interpretation. But is there any reason to believe it is true? And if it is true, why is the Bible written with so much crap in it that causes so much evil in the world? For example, why is it so filled with sexism that has oppressed women for two thousand years? That doesn't sound like a book designed to help people cross over to the other side. It sounds like an all to human book filled with human failings that has misled millions of people and caused immeasurable needless suffering in the world. Things only began to get better when people realized that God is NOT TRUSTWORTHY. We learned we have to rely on our own strength and intelligence if we want to survive. When people had to trust God, we died like flies from the plague. Only when we abandoned faith in a faithless God did we find the strength to discover antibiotics, and so we have saved millions of lives that God was perfectly happy to let die miserable deaths.

    I hope my words don't frustrate you. I'm just answering in my honest voice, telling you how things really look to me. I hope you speak the same to me.

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystykal View Post
    To: Richard

    "Understand this if nothing else: spiritual freedom and oneness with the Tao are not randomly bestowed gifts, but the rewards of conscious self-transformation and self-evolution."

    Although the above statement is Asian in origin it brings a perspective to the table which can be applied to the writings of the Bible. The idea is that, Spiritual oneness with the Ultimate CAN be achieved ONLY by self-transformation.

    The Bible says "Be ye therefore transformed by the re-newing of your mind." The context is as follows:

    Romans 12:2
    1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. 3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.…

    Sothat FAITH is a factor in the Spriitural renewal of the mind so that we may know the will of the Divine Mind which is the power behind all things true. It is of little value to argue over the foundation which has been laid by the mystics of all ages and find their culmination in the words of One who holds the keys to life and death - Christ Jesus the Saviour of mankind. Take it or leave it! In the end each individual must decide what to believe. The Holy Spirit is the Guide which, if we listen in stillness - will guide us to all truth leading to life eternal. I find this reality to be the ultimate reality! The process intriques me and enlightens me each day! I can't say enough good things about my life as it is now - I'm on my way to the land of pure bliss! PTL!

    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Hey there Mystykal,

    Your interpretation is very nice and all, but I don't see what it has to do with the Bible. The Bible is not about the Tao. It is not about some abstract concept of "FAITH" that is supposed to help a person "cross over to the other side." Your interpretation ignores the vast majority of the Bible, and certainly the plain meaning as understood by the vast majority of Bible believers throughout history.

    You say the Holy Spirit is a guide. Funny thing is, that's what every Christian sect says, and yet they have all been guided by the same "Holy Spirit" into diametrically opposed beliefs! How could that happen? The answer is obvious. There is no way for anyone to discern between the "Holy Spirit" and their own private imagination. And so believers quickly fall into self-deception of the worst kind. They deceive themselves into believing that their own intuitions are the very voice of God himself. I've seen this a million times. When asked what's the difference between their beliefs and the false beliefs of Muslims, Mormons, Hindus, and every other kind of believer, they say the difference is that they have the "Holy Spirit". Obviously, such is the path to deception.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Hey there Mystykal,

    Your interpretation is very nice and all, but I don't see what it has to do with the Bible. The Bible is not about the Tao. It is not about some abstract concept of "FAITH" that is supposed to help a person "cross over to the other side." Your interpretation ignores the vast majority of the Bible, and certainly the plain meaning as understood by the vast majority of Bible believers throughout history.

    You say the Holy Spirit is a guide. Funny thing is, that's what every Christian sect says, and yet they have all been guided by the same "Holy Spirit" into diametrically opposed beliefs! How could that happen? The answer is obvious. There is no way for anyone to discern between the "Holy Spirit" and their own private imagination. And so believers quickly fall into self-deception of the worst kind. They deceive themselves into believing that their own intuitions are the very voice of God himself. I've seen this a million times. When asked what's the difference between their beliefs and the false beliefs of Muslims, Mormons, Hindus, and every other kind of believer, they say the difference is that they have the "Holy Spirit". Obviously, such is the path to deception.

    All the best,

    Richard
    Hi Richard:
    You are right! But at the same time you are dead wrong! Let me try and explain. First of all I already stated that it is of little value to argue with the mystics which have given us our teachings. Now we can reject all light because it comes in a package which is not to our liking. As well as we can mindlessly accept all things thrown at us which appears to be from a legit source. Both would be error.

    You seem to infer that truth and its framework is not universal. You seem to not accept the idea that the Bible is an ancient book written in a style which is very similar to the Tao Te Ching. You seem to know next to nothing about the origins of the Tao. Your statement about the Bible not being about the Tao is laughable. Everything in the world is about the Tao! The concepts which resonate the loudest are those ideals which all people view as good and worthy of study. The Bible is a compilation of ideas and stories which Jews and Christians believe to be "inspired". Yes - there is much mud and muck surrounding these beautiful truths and as with all diamonds they are hidden in the ground for a reason. You got lost in the muck and threw the baby out with the bath water!

    You said Your interpretation ignores the vast majority of the Bible, and certainly the plain meaning as understood by the vast majority of Bible believers throughout history.

    Well I don't know what you mean exactly. The faith idea has been around for a long time. It has also been looked at in very different ways by Christians over time. If you think I hold to a concept which you do not recognize or you think most other "Evangelical" Christians would agree with - that might be the case. I do not get my ideas from Evangelical Christians. I consider them all to be "non-Biblical" in their Biblical interpretations! As far as I can see they do not speak for Christianity as a whole.

    You wrote: You say the Holy Spirit is a guide. Funny thing is, that's what every Christian sect says, and yet they have all been guided by the same "Holy Spirit" into diametrically opposed beliefs!

    Well, your statment is false! These people who are not in "one accord" and have crazy non-Biblical beliefs which they claim are from the Bible and they are Spirit-filled, pew jumping, washed in the blood "Christians" are in reality the spawn of Satan! Their notion that they are Spirit filled is a joke. BUT that does not mean ALL people who claim to be led of the Spirit are delusional. You are wrong about that!

    Jesus said. "You will know the truth!." "And when the Spirit of truth is come The Spirit will guide you into ALL TRUTH."

    Now, I know lots of people claim to know the truth and be led of the Spirit... But few are! The question is are YOU? Am I? That question is at the heart of your argument and why you left the Christian church! I am here to tell you that Jesus has promised The Holy Spirit to all those who will follow after the Spirit's leading... period. We all have our faults... but the Spirit is willing and able to save those who come to the fountain of Living Water! The meditative process is the ONLY way to personally find the Spirit and be baptized in the Fountain/Fire of GOD'S presence. Take it or leave it - The truth is still taught by the Masters who have a living connection with the "other side."

    Jesus said, " I go to prepare a place for you. And ...I will come again and receive you unto myself so that where I am you will be also." So mote it be! (That place IS the other side!)

    Namaste,

    Mystykal
    Last edited by Mystykal; 08-16-2013 at 10:13 PM.

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