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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post

    Grandfather x 33, and tribe of Judah is how I mean 'physical' -- not from any of the other tribes, but of David's bloodline. The "Jacob to Joseph" in Matthew 1:16 should put you in mind of how the sons of Joseph in Egypt had a grandfather named Jacob.Only two Jacobs in scripture: both had a son named Joseph.
    There are forty (count'em) names between the 2 Jacobs in the Pedigree. Stop giggling though, or you'll miscount.
    I'm sorry, but I must be truly dense. I don't have a clue about how mere descent from Judah could be equated with "absolutely WAS physically the son of David." Your words shift around too much, and you write cryptic things like "Grandfather x 33." What was that supposed to mean?
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    I'm sorry, but I must be truly dense. I don't have a clue about how mere descent from Judah could be equated with "absolutely WAS physically the son of David." Your words shift around too much, and you write cryptic things like "Grandfather x 33." What was that supposed to mean?

    Ram, sometimes I think you're just pulling my leg. I'm referring to the difference between physical and spiritual in that quote -- the diff between a bloodline connection and 'blood brother' or spiritual alike. Hope you weren't thinking how David and Jesus shook hands or met up somewhere in the past.. The 33 generations from Adam to Jesus are like a school teacher for the 33 from David to Jesus -- so David was ggggggggggggggggggggggrandfather of Jesus! OK? (imagine 33 g's)

    Concerning the 'Rahab Thread'
    When the pedigree trail, or thread, reaches 'brothers', then we have to decide which brother leads to Jesus, because the wrong brother will take you to a dead-end or over a cliff. (fig. of speech)

    That's the way it is today also -- don't be led astray by listening to a wrong 'brother', but instead follow after Jesus, the Word. (literal)

    It is written "the 'common' people heard him gladly", and that may be a loophole for you... (hope it's comfy)
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Where in the world did you get the idea that Psalm 110 was talking about Abraham?
    http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi/true

    The word of the Lord to my master: Our Rabbis interpreted it as referring to Abraham our father, and I shall explain it according to their words (Mid. Ps. 110:1): The word of the Lord to Abraham, whom the world called “my master,” as it is written (Gen. 23: 6): “Hearken to us, my master.”

    (...)

    The staff of: [This is] an expression of support, as (above 105:16): “every staff of bread.”

    The staff of your might the Lord will send from Zion: When you return from the war and your men are weary and in pursuit, the Lord will send you Malchizedek, king of Salem, to bring out bread and wine (Gen. 14: 14).

    (...)

    Your people will volunteer on the day of your host: When you gather an army to pursue them, your people and your friends will volunteer to go out with you, as we find (Gen. 14:14): “and he armed his trained men, those born in his house,” and no more; and Aner, Eshkol, and Mamre volunteered by themselves to go out to his aid.

    (...)

    The Lord swore and will not repent: Since Abraham was afraid lest he be punished for the troops that he had killed, it was said to him (Gen. 15: 1): “Fear not, Abraham, etc.”

    (...)

    you are a priest forever because of the speech of Malchizedek: From you will emerge the priesthood and the kingship that your children will inherit from Shem your progenitor, the priesthood and the kingship, which were given to him. דִבְרָתִי מלכי-צדק. The “yud” is superfluous, like (Lam. 1: 1): “the city that was once so populous (רבתי).” Because of the speech of Malchizedek, because of the command of Malchizedek. You are a priest, Heb. כהן. The word כהן bears the connotation of priesthood and rulership, as (II Sam. 8:18): “and David’s sons were chief officers.”

    (...)

    The Lord: Who was on your right hand in battle.

    has crushed kings on the day of His wrath: The four kings. He…

    (...)

    will execute justice upon the nations [into] a heap of corpses: This is the tidings of the ‘covenant between the segments,’ [in] which was stated to him concerning Egypt (Gen. 15:14): “But also that nation whom they will serve do I judge.”

    a heap of corpses: Heb. מלא, a heap of corpses. מלא is an expression of gathering, as (Jer. 12:6): “have called a gang (מלא) after you” ; (Isa. 31: 4), “although a band (מלא) of shepherds gather against him.” Now where did He execute justice, making them a heap of corpses? (Exod. 14:30), “the Egyptians dead on the seashore.”
    Last edited by sylvius; 07-11-2012 at 12:23 AM.

  4. #44
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    Psalms 110:1,
    נְאֻם יְהוָה לַאדֹנִי--שֵׁב לִימִינִי

    "n'um hashem ladoni -- sheiv limini"
    saying of the Lord to my master

    "my master"= Abraham


    Psalms 110:5,

    אֲדֹנָי עַל-יְמִינְךָ

    "adonai al-y'mincha",
    "Lord at your right hand"

    "Lord" -- the Messiah?

  5. #45
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    Hi Sylvius, I don't see this as referring to Abraham, but more like the focus on the all-capital
    LORD vs the first letter Lord, for the KJV readers anyway.

    Psalms:110:1: The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
    Psalms:110:4: The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
    Psalms:110:5: The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

    "At thy right hand" speaks of Jesus beside Jehovah, as in Acts 2:25.

    Just my thinking -- not proficient in Hebrew, so maybe more to it. You think?
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    Hi Sylvius, I don't see this as referring to Abraham, but more like the focus on the all-capital
    LORD vs the first letter Lord, for the KJV readers anyway.

    Psalms:110:1: The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
    Psalms:110:4: The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
    Psalms:110:5: The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

    "At thy right hand" speaks of Jesus beside Jehovah, as in Acts 2:25.

    Just my thinking -- not proficient in Hebrew, so maybe more to it. You think?
    Pslams 110:1,
    נְאֻם יְהוָה לַאדֹנִי "n'um hashem ladoni"

    "adon"= master, "adoni" = my master. "adonai" = Lord, used for "hashem"= the four lettered Name (you cannot pronounce),

    You say: "shma Yisrael adonai eloheinu adonai echad" ("Hear Israel the Lord is our God The Lord is one")

    v.4:
    נִשְׁבַּע יְהוָה "nishba hashem" = the Lord has sworn.

    v.5:
    אֲדֹנָי עַל-יְמִינְךָ "adonai y'mincha" = the Lord at your right hand

    Rather confusing...

    Did they change seat?

    I think it means something else. You shouldn't make a "graven image" out if it.

  7. #47
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    Not switching seats IMO, but rather puts emphasis on relation of Son to the Father.

    Matt22:44 "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 22:45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    Not switching seats IMO, but rather puts emphasis on relation of Son to the Father.

    Matt22:44 "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 22:45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
    The Greek makes it unclear.

    For it has for "hashem" (Tetragrammaton), for "adon" (master) and for "adonai" (Lord) one and the same word "kurios".

    KJV is wrong with it's use of capital letter "L".

    That's why (and also because of many other "perversions") it is called KJPV, the King James Perversion ...


    http://www.septuagint.org/LXX/Psalms/109

    1. τῷ *δαυιδ ψαλμός εἶπεν ὁ κύριος τῷ κυρίῳ μου κάθου ἐκ δεξιῶν μου ἕως ἂν θῶ τοὺς ἐχθρούς σου ὑποπόδιον τῶν ποδῶν σου

    2. ῥάβδον δυνάμεώς σου ἐξαποστελεῖ κύριος ἐκ *σιων καὶ κατακυρίευε ἐν μέσῳ τῶν ἐχθρῶν σου

    3. μετὰ σοῦ ἡ ἀρχὴ ἐν ἡμέρᾳ τῆς δυνάμεώς σου ἐν ταῖς λαμπρότησιν τῶν ἁγίων ἐκ γαστρὸς πρὸ ἑωσφόρου ἐξεγέννησά σε

    4. ὤμοσεν κύριος καὶ οὐ μεταμεληθήσεται σὺ εἶ ἱερεὺς εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα κατὰ τὴν τάξιν *μελχισεδεκ

    5. κύριος ἐκ δεξιῶν σου συνέθλασεν ἐν ἡμέρᾳ ὀργῆς αὐτοῦ βασιλεῖς

    6. κρινεῖ ἐν τοῖς ἔθνεσιν πληρώσει πτώματα συνθλάσει κεφαλὰς ἐπὶ γῆς πολλῶν

    7. ἐκ χειμάρρου ἐν ὁδῷ πίεται διὰ τοῦτο ὑψώσει κεφαλήν
    Last edited by sylvius; 07-11-2012 at 07:26 AM.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post

    Ram, sometimes I think you're just pulling my leg. I'm referring to the difference between physical and spiritual in that quote -- the diff between a bloodline connection and 'blood brother' or spiritual alike. Hope you weren't thinking how David and Jesus shook hands or met up somewhere in the past.. The 33 generations from Adam to Jesus are like a school teacher for the 33 from David to Jesus -- so David was ggggggggggggggggggggggrandfather of Jesus! OK? (imagine 33 g's)
    OK - I was totally dense about "Grandfather x 33" as meaning "33rd paternal ancestor." That's because I don't believe in your table of 66 generations so I wasn't thinking along those lines. Sorry!
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  10. #50
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    So you agree with Rashi and deny that Christ is Messiah?

    Why then do you have any interest in the NT if you reject its central claim?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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