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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Since when are Biblical genealogies reckoned through the mother's line? Christ was not the son of any man, so how could be be the "son of David" in any literal sense? Christians argue that he was "legally" the son of David because his step-dad was a literal son of David, but that means he was not the literal physical descendant of David.

    I never did buy into that 'legally' biz -- am thinking how 'Adam' was 'their' name, including Eve, and the male/female lines are a comparison/contrast similar to King-Priest. Looking back and seeing how all those generations included sons UNTIL we arrived at the proper count so Jesus would be #66. Planned ahead, I'm sure...

    While we're at it..
    Father/Son two-some
    Lk3 records: Neri, Salathiel, Zorobabel, Rhesa,

    Whereas Matt 1 says: Jechonias, Salathiel, Zorobabel, Abiud,

    I figure two different sets, adding to our confusion. And You say??
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post

    I never did buy into that 'legally' biz -- am thinking how 'Adam' was 'their' name, including Eve, and the male/female lines are a comparison/contrast similar to King-Priest. Looking back and seeing how all those generations included sons UNTIL we arrived at the proper count so Jesus would be #66. Planned ahead, I'm sure...
    OK - if we follow that logic, then pretty much every Jew is a physical descendant of David. This is because of the way population dynamics work. Everyone is actually related to everyone else. Each person has 2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 great-grandparents, etc. It's exponential. 2N. Go back just N = 100 generations and you will find that you have

    2100 = 1,267,650,600,228,229,401,496,703,205,376 ancestors!

    Uh ... that's 1.2 x 1030 which is, of course, absurd. So what really happened? The folks who lived in the distant past are really the grandparents of everyone. We all descended from all the people that have any living descendants because of how populations mix. This is why genealogies are meaningless. Everyone is related to everyone. Everyone is a literal "son of David" and everyone is a literal "son of Abraham" and everyone is a literal "son of Esau." If those people have any living descendents, then we are all related. It's like a drop of ink in an ocean. It dissolves until a microscopic amount is found in every drop of water.

    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    While we're at it..
    Father/Son two-some
    Lk3 records: Neri, Salathiel, Zorobabel, Rhesa,

    Whereas Matt 1 says: Jechonias, Salathiel, Zorobabel, Abiud,

    I figure two different sets, adding to our confusion. And You say??
    I say you are exactly correct. The genealogies just "add to our confusion."

    The genealogies in Matthew and Luke are directly contradictory and cannot be resolved.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    OK - if we follow that logic, then pretty much every Jew is a physical descendant of David. This is because of the way population dynamics work. Everyone is actually related to everyone else. Each person has 2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 great-grandparents, etc. It's exponential. 2N. Go back just N = 100 generations and you will find that you have

    2100 = 1,267,650,600,228,229,401,496,703,205,376 ancestors!

    Uh ... that's 1.2 x 1030 which is, of course, absurd. So what really happened? The folks who lived in the distant past are really the grandparents of everyone. We all descended from all the people that have any living descendants because of how populations mix. This is why genealogies are meaningless. Everyone is related to everyone. Everyone is a literal "son of David" and everyone is a literal "son of Abraham" and everyone is a literal "son of Esau." If those people have any living descendents, then we are all related. It's like a drop of ink in an ocean. It dissolves until a microscopic amount is found in every drop of water. I say you are exactly correct. The genealogies just "add to our confusion."
    The genealogies in Matthew and Luke are directly contradictory and cannot be resolved.
    Baloney!

    You just really don't get it, do you. How "Father to Son" goes right down the line until coming to the father who doesn't have a son--only a daughter. And how the Holy Ghostwriter is NOT trying to make it easy for us--we're supposed to STUDY if we want answers. Not saying i have all of them, but every now and then I do get answers which continue to clarify scripture and see how the Word is Truth.
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Jess was literally called the Son of David, if He is not, why didn't He publicly rebuked them?
    Yes, Jesus was literally called the "Son of David." But that does not mean he was called the literal "Son of David."

    Do you understand the difference?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    Baloney!
    How can you say baloney? Are you saying that you didn't have two parents and four grandparents?

    It appears you do not understand population dynamics.

    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    You just really don't get it, do you. How "Father to Son" goes right down the line until coming to the father who doesn't have a son--only a daughter. And how the Holy Ghostwriter is NOT trying to make it easy for us--we're supposed to STUDY if we want answers. Not saying i have all of them, but every now and then I do get answers which continue to clarify scripture and see how the Word is Truth.
    I understand perfectly how some people think that the genealogy terminates in Christ's mother. Others disagree. But what does any of that have to do with the fact that everyone is a descendant of David?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    How can you say baloney? Are you saying that you didn't have two parents and four grandparents?

    It appears you do not understand population dynamics.
    We aren't (I'm not) speaking of nails in the horse-shoe.. Why did you think we were?
    I understand perfectly how some people think that the genealogy terminates in Christ's mother. Others disagree. But what does any of that have to do with the fact that everyone is a descendant of David?

    Everyone is a descendant of Adam, and related to Noah's 3 sons, but following the seed that's passed from father to son -- like our Heavenly Father has passed the "Incorruptible Seed" in the form of his son (the Word), so that WE can be called "son's of God", is the subject here. Not just sons, but also daughters, which ought to bless Rose no end. Let me say it again: the gender diff is similar to the King-Priest diff, having to do with why no marriage in Heaven.. OK?
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post

    Everyone is a descendant of Adam, and related to Noah's 3 sons, but following the seed that's passed from father to son -- like our Heavenly Father has passed the "Incorruptible Seed" in the form of his son (the Word), so that WE can be called "son's of God", is the subject here. Not just sons, but also daughters, which ought to bless Rose no end. Let me say it again: the gender diff is similar to the King-Priest diff, having to do with why no marriage in Heaven.. OK?
    I don't follow your comment that "the subject here" is "so that WE can be called 'son's of God'". I was answering your statement that Jesus "absolutely WAS a physical descendant of David":
    duxrow: And Jesus absolutely WAS a physical descendant of David:
    Are you retracting this statement now?

    And what about the evidence I gave that everyone is descended from David? Do you understand how population dynamics work, or do you still think it's all "baloney"?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    I don't follow your comment that "the subject here" is "so that WE can be called 'son's of God'". I was answering your statement that Jesus "absolutely WAS a physical descendant of David":
    duxrow: And Jesus absolutely WAS a physical descendant of David:
    Are you retracting this statement now?
    And what about the evidence I gave that everyone is descended from David? Do you understand how population dynamics work, or do you still think it's all "baloney"?

    Still baloney--no retraction. Let me try it another way though, seeing you're so dense. It's like the thread that connected to Rahab -- the thread that goes 'father to son' (follow it carefully!) from Adam to Seth (not to a diff son, but to Seth) and then the HG lays it out for you to follow to Noah.

    But at Noah comes the fork in the road--which of the 3 boys do we follow? Shem, it turns out, is the one leading to Abram. The 'thread' goes in similar fashion all the way to the father of Mary-- and it hooks many of the books of the Bible together as well.. Two of the sons of David are in contention -- which way leads to Christ?? Think we've been over this ground recently, so will let it go at that.
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post

    Still baloney--no retraction. Let me try it another way though, seeing you're so dense.
    It gives me the giggles when folks who don't understand basic population dynamics call me "dense."

    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    It's like the thread that connected to Rahab -- the thread that goes 'father to son' (follow it carefully!) from Adam to Seth (not to a diff son, but to Seth) and then the HG lays it out for you to follow to Noah.

    But at Noah comes the fork in the road--which of the 3 boys do we follow? Shem, it turns out, is the one leading to Abram. The 'thread' goes in similar fashion all the way to the father of Mary-- and it hooks many of the books of the Bible together as well.. Two of the sons of David are in contention -- which way leads to Christ?? Think we've been over this ground recently, so will let it go at that.
    That's nice and all, but what does it have to do with our assertion that Christ was "absolutely the physical son of David"?

    I think you are causing your face to get red. Just stay on topic and explain yourself clearly and I will understand.

    Please remain calm!
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #40
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    Giggles

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    It gives me the giggles when folks who don't understand basic population dynamics call me "dense."
    That's nice and all, but what does it have to do with our assertion that Christ was "absolutely the physical son of David"?
    I think you are causing your face to get red. Just stay on topic and explain yourself clearly and I will understand.
    Please remain calm!
    RAM: I understand perfectly how some people think that the genealogy terminates in Christ's mother. Others disagree. But what does any of that have to do with the fact that everyone is a descendant of David?

    Grandfather x 33, and tribe of Judah is how I mean 'physical' -- not from any of the other tribes, but of David's bloodline. The "Jacob to Joseph" in Matthew 1:16 should put you in mind of how the sons of Joseph in Egypt had a grandfather named Jacob.Only two Jacobs in scripture: both had a son named Joseph.
    There are forty (count'em) names between the 2 Jacobs in the Pedigree. Stop giggling though, or you'll miscount.
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

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