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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Beck
    I am glad we are in overall agreement. I agree, we have to be very careful about the style of language used and the context. Parables and metaphors have to be carefully understood.

    Your reply to my question, was not quite as I expected and therefore I should have been more careful in the way I phrased it. Instead of someone, I meant these "angels". I will try to make my point again.

    I got the impression from your reply that you think the "angels" in Jude, who are human, lost sight of the truth and went from light to darkness and remained that way whilst still alive. They were held in darkness until the Day of Judgment and were restrained from converting back.
    Yes that is my perspective on those angels of Jude. As I mentioned about the Pharisees and Sudducees that John asked them who had warned them of their doom. Well even while they might have heard of coming judgment they deceived themselves for God would not have them escape their judgment of destruction. Paul even alludes to that God would send them strong delusions so to believe a lie and be damned (2 Thess. 2:11-12)

    So if we take the 'angels' of Jude to be God's messengers which left the God of Israel and begun to teach of other gods or even speak evil of the truth so to make a profit. Leading many to follow the laws of men rather than the laws of God. These refused to hear the words of God by his prophets to repent rather they killed God's prophets. Like that of Isaiah calling them 'locusts' which came upon the land to ate up the vineyard of God. God would have them remain in their darkness until the day of the Lord came and brought their just reward.


    Just to add the book of Revelation speaks of a time when the pit of darkness would be open and 'locust and smoke' were to come out (Rev.9:1-21) We should be able to apply the same metaphor of locust eating up the vineyard of God as to the wicked priest, rulers and elders of Israel and apply it also to those coming out of the pit of darkness.

    I just wondered how you squared that with them being cast into Hell, which I undestand to be the grave. There is no return from the grave until resurrected.
    The understanding is that they were dead. That is, they by been in the darkness of not knowing the truth or not knowing the true God of Israel were spiritually dead. So being dead bring about the image of the grave which you are correct about 'hell to be the grave'. Being in the grave also brings about the image of being in the dark and a pit of darkness. Can you see all the connections that is being maded here? Death, Bottomless Pit, Asleep, and Hell all relate to the same image of being separated from God. This would be classified as the first death of only the soul.

    As I mentioned the gates of hell or the doors of darkness relate more toward the spiritual darkness of ones soul being separated from God. Hell isn't a literal place, but it gives off the image of darkness, torment and separation of soul and body. Resurrection is one's soul being rasied up out of darkness of the pit of hell. When a person accepts the good news of Christ he/she is rasied up or quicken to life and brought out of the pit of darkness. Jesus maded this clear to Peter that hell nor death would prevail over the Church (Matthew 16:17-19). Just as Paul related to the Ephesians that they were once dead in their sins, but now quicken. (Eph.2:1-5) and said that they were no longer the children of darkness, but now the children of the light of the day (Eph.5:6-14).

    If alive, there is no reason a person might not see the error of their ways and convert back. Mark 3:29 does say; But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:.

    If you say that the angels' sins were so bad, they could not be forgiven or allowed to revert to their original state, that is OK. I really wanted to distinguish between the "angels" remaining alive (as you think) and being dead (as I think).
    As to the person that might see their error and convert back as in the case of Jude's angels. I think not. I'm thinking the 'messengers' is those that have being give the word of God to be his mouth unto the people. Many times God sent prophets to tell them to repent, but often they didn't and as seen in their history God allowed a nation to come and invade Israel. We would also have to remember that God always had a remnant that remained faithful to him even when all other's forsaked and turn to other gods.


    I do think that these remained physically alive until the time of their judgment. For instances in the days of Noah the people married and lived as always until the day the door was shut and the rain begun. It would be understandable that Noah preached that it was going to rain which is to say that a day of judgment was coming, but the people laughted at him, while preaching a great some of years. To say that they were held in disbelief as in darkness they were then comsumed by the flood rains until their doom. Thus Jude used Naoh as one example of God's day of Judgment upon these messengers. There is something else about Naoh and the flood waters that is non-literal, but spiritual in nature, that's for another day or thread.

    Just to be clear the persons where dead in that they where spiritually separated from God as leaving their first estate, yet alive physically until their day of Judgment, thus the second death.

    I appreciate your comments on Heaven and Hell.

    Great chatting.

    David
    It's being great conversing with you.
    Last edited by Beck; 05-15-2012 at 03:05 PM.
    Beck

  2. #12
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    Recent communications in two other threads has lead me to add this post to this thread supporting my view that the "angels" in Jude 6 are human and were Korah, Dathan and Abiram whom God destroyed miraculously in the wilderness after the people were delivered from Egypt. It is in this context (Jude 5) that Jude is reminding his readers of this event.


    The first additional piece of information is that of Strong's Concordance for the Greek word "aggelos" which has been translated as "angels". This is Strong's meaning of the word; 32. aggelos, ang'-el-os; from aggello [prob. der. from G71; comp. G34] (to bring tidings); a messenger; esp. an "angel"; by impl. a pastor:--angel, messenger.
    God's Angels in heaven have been used to give messages from God and also perform miraculous acts, but in the meanings given by Strong, the word "messenger" can equally be applied to humans and in fact the word "pastor" is mentioned which we know is a title given to men in the official state they occupy in the church.


    Another use of the word "angel" is found in the Book of Revelation when John is instructed to write letters to seven churches. Each church is to receive its own letter/message. The message was to be given to the church members by the Minister, Bishop, Priest of the church. John is told to write to the angel of the church at .... For example, the first letter was to the church at Ephesus; (Revelation 2:1) Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write;
    Was John writing to an Angel of God in Heaven representing the church at Ephesus? I do not think so. The angel John was to write to is the same as the "angels" in Jude 6 who held the same priestly position in relation to the congregation and the church.

    Here we have the Book of Revelation supporting the interpretation that I applied to Jude 6 that the "angels" are referring to human individuals. The fact is that while the word angel can apply to God's Angel in heaven, it can also apply to a human individual. To say that it can only refer to an Angel of God as found in Heaven is to deny the truth of the language applying. The word "angel" in Jude 6 must be in the context of Jude 5 and that is reinforced with the word "And" at the beginning of verse 6 which is the Greek word "Te" meaning that the two verses must be linked together. The word Te is elsewhere interpreted "both" and this means; one and the other; two together


    David

  3. #13
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    Just to show that I am not the only one saying that the "angels" of Jude 6 are not God's Angels, here is a video of someone else's explanation. I have no connection with this person and the church they belong to. I am not in total agreement with everything the presenter says in the video and it is only on the point of identifying the "angels" in Jude 6 I am linking to this video.

    We are all free to make our own decisions in understanding what Jude is telling us. The identification of the "angels" this presenter makes is different to mine, but the identification is done after rightly understanding the context. The reasons presented by him and me must be examined. I see how this presenter is identifying the "angels" with all the the Israelites who died in the wilderness, because of the penalty they incurred by their unbelief. Only by comparing my exposition with this presentation can you decide whose explanation is nearer the truth.

    The presenter rightly explains what an "angel" is and that the word can apply to humans as well as divine beings. What you have to decide is whether the whole congregation, which died in the wilderness after a period of 40 years, can be considered to be the the "messengers". Since the word "angel" is intended to apply to those who bear a message from God, the term "angel" applies to priests and ministers but does not exclude someone in the capacity of a prophet. In the context Jude is referring to, you have to decide who the ministers,or priests or prophets were. You have to decide whether the "angels" refers to the whole congregation of Israel which died in the wilderness or men like Korah, Dathan, and Abiram who are seen as ministers?




    David

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