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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post
    You making something out of nothing. Every high preist was 'anointed' of God (Exodus 30:22-25). As in the case with Cyrus as being the anointed of God. The term "mashiach" literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne.

    Also according to Daniel 9:26 of the messiah be cut off if we take the time table and view Dan.11:22 about the High Priest Onias III as being the 'anointed one' that were to be cut off as indicated in Dan.8:10. Then mashiach (messiah) is referring to the anointed one.

    And as to Immanuel ascribed to the child in the time of Ahaz as God with us. That's not uncommon consider that the three children of Hosea was given names that was far from the child itself.
    You and Richard are very wrong about this.

    The Messiah was anointed by God's Holy Spirit in full view of John the Baptist...... No other anointed King,or Prophet, or Gentile King such as Cyrus the Persian received such an anointing.

    The name Messiah means ''Anointed of YHVH''.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by highflyertoo View Post
    You and Richard are very wrong about this.

    The Messiah was anointed by God's Holy Spirit in full view of John the Baptist...... No other anointed King,or Prophet, or Gentile King such as Cyrus the Persian received such an anointing.

    The name Messiah means ''Anointed of YHVH''.
    I am not wrong about this. I already agreed that Christ was the unique messiah in the NT. But that has nothing to do with the meaning of the word "messiah." That's your error. The word itself does not mean "Anointed of YHVH." You have not presented a single fact that supports your assertion, and I have proven that you are wrong. Why don't you just admit it?
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    I am not wrong about this. I already agreed that Christ was the unique messiah in the NT. But that has nothing to do with the meaning of the word "messiah." That's your error. The word itself does not mean "Anointed of YHVH." You have not presented a single fact that supports your assertion, and I have proven that you are wrong. Why don't you just admit it?

    Why are you not able to show the name Messiah in other verses of the Old Testament?

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by highflyertoo View Post
    Why are you not able to show the name Messiah in other verses of the Old Testament?
    Why do you need me to show them to you? If you can't find them yourself, then how can you claim to know anything of which you speak?

    Here are a few to help you out:

    Leviticus 4:3 'if the anointed priest sins, bringing guilt on the people, then let him offer to the LORD for his sin which he has sinned a young bull without blemish as a sin offering.

    2 Samuel 1:16 So David said to him, "Your blood is on your own head, for your own mouth has testified against you, saying, 'I have killed the LORD's anointed.' "

    Psalm 18:50 Great deliverance He gives to His king, And shows mercy to His anointed, to David and his descendants forevermore.

    Psalm 105:15 Saying, "Do not touch My anointed ones, And do My prophets no harm."

    Isaiah 45:1 "Thus says the LORD to His anointed, To Cyrus, whose right hand I have held -- To subdue nations before him And loose the armor of kings, To open before him the double doors, So that the gates will not be shut:

    It sounds like you think that English translations that use "Messiah" in Dan 9:26 mean that the word "messiah" in that verse is different than in other verses. But it's not. It is foolish in the extreme to try to build doctrines from the arbitrary choice of capitalization in an English translation! The Hebrew has no "capital" letters, no upper or lower case.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Why do you need me to show them to you? If you can't find them yourself, then how can you claim to know anything of which you speak?

    Here are a few to help you out:

    Leviticus 4:3 'if the anointed priest sins, bringing guilt on the people, then let him offer to the LORD for his sin which he has sinned a young bull without blemish as a sin offering.

    2 Samuel 1:16 So David said to him, "Your blood is on your own head, for your own mouth has testified against you, saying, 'I have killed the LORD's anointed.' "

    Psalm 18:50 Great deliverance He gives to His king, And shows mercy to His anointed, to David and his descendants forevermore.

    Psalm 105:15 Saying, "Do not touch My anointed ones, And do My prophets no harm."

    Isaiah 45:1 "Thus says the LORD to His anointed, To Cyrus, whose right hand I have held -- To subdue nations before him And loose the armor of kings, To open before him the double doors, So that the gates will not be shut:

    It sounds like you think that English translations that use "Messiah" in Dan 9:26 mean that the word "messiah" in that verse is different than in other verses. But it's not. It is foolish in the extreme to try to build doctrines from the arbitrary choice of capitalization in an English translation! The Hebrew has no "capital" letters, no upper or lower case.
    You haven't shown any verses with the word Messiah.

    What you're not getting Richard is the name Messiah applies only to one person..... King David was not a Messiah even though he was anointed to be King...

    Either show the verses or admit that it's only in Daniel where the prophecy is mentioned about one being called Messiah.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by highflyertoo View Post
    You haven't shown any verses with the word Messiah.

    What you're not getting Richard is the name Messiah applies only to one person..... King David was not a Messiah even though he was anointed to be King...

    Either show the verses or admit that it's only in Daniel where the prophecy is mentioned about one being called Messiah.
    Dude! Those are ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS of the Hebrew text. In the Hebrew, the word "meshiach" (messiah) is the same in all the verses.

    Is this something that you don't understand?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Dude! Those are ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS of the Hebrew text. In the Hebrew, the word "meshiach" (messiah) is the same in all the verses.

    Is this something that you don't understand?
    Then why haven't the translators applied the name Messiah to all the verses?

  8. #28
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    Hi to all.

    I am reading this thread and appreciating the comments from both sides. Is there any common ground which we can agree on? I know that the words "messiah" and "christ" are titles and have been applied to other men. I know I have a different understanding to many on this forum including RAM and highflyertoo, and so to contribute to this discussion, I will add my thoughts. I do not intend to continue the discussion having clearly stated what I understand. It is for others to make up their mind. If I have not stated things clearly, I will do so if that becomes apparent in the responses to anything I say.

    We know that Jesus is unique in terms of his conception, and that he is the only begotten Son of God. In term of what Jesus will do or appears to do, Jesus will appear as the 'The Messiah' and 'The Christ'. So often we hear the name of Jesus stated as Jesus Christ and this is as it appears translated in the New Tesatament. Often I will say; " Jesus, The Christ"; meaning Jesus, The Saviour. I am identifying Jesus as the only one and true Saviour. No other person fulfills the role that Jesus does as the Son of God. The name Jesus is itself a common name, but that does not make Jesus common and indistinguishable from any other man. What makes Jesus different is by what he did and what he is able to do; given that all the power Jesus has been given to him by his Heavenly Father. It will be God who sends Jesus back to earth and Jesus will return as The Messiah to the Jews.

    The Jews have always been expecting the Messiah as prophecied by Isaiah, but after Jesus was born, he never fufilled that the role of Messiah. That time is to come. That is why the Jews rejected Jesus as the Son of God, because to them, Jesus was not fulfilling the role of Messiah. Jesus was born in the period when the Jews were under Roman occupation and the Jews were looking for deliverance. Jesus did not give them the deliverance they wanted, and in fact, they were not delivered from the persecution that came in AD70. This is one of the reasons for not considering all prophecy was conlcuded by the time of AD70, because Jesus must come back at the time the Jews need deliverance once more.

    According to my understanding of Scripture, the Jews have to be overthrown a third and final time. We see the signs taking place in the Midddle East now with the nations rising up against Israel. We are told of God's judgement to come on all the nations and especially those who come and attack Israel like those identified as Gog and Magog in Ezekial. These will be defeated by God in the battle that takes place. The Jews will not escape their punishment when this takes place. However, Jesus will be sent back and one of his roles is that he will appear as the Messiah to the Jews. This is when the veil will be lifted from their spiritual eyes and they will recognize Jesus as the Son of God who they were responsible for crucifying 2,000 years ago.

    Jesus has many titles by the way of "I am ...." I do not recall Jesus saying; "I am the Messiah". Jesus did ask Peter; "but who do you say that I am?" and Peter replied; "Thou art the Christ". and as Mark 8:30 records; And he (Jesus) charged them that they should tell no man of him.. In other words, Jesus did not want that claim made of him at that time, because he was not there to deliver the people from the Roman occupation.

    Jesus is the Saviour to all those that believe in him and call upon his name and that of his Heavenly Father, to deliver them from ultimate death that will befall everyone. Not everyone wil be delivered from death. However, from the perspective of the Jews, their fulfillment of the prophecy in Isaiah has yet to be fulfilled and so until the Jews are forced to call on God to save them, having been put into a situation where there is no escape and certain anhilation, God will hear them and save them. When Jesus is sent back, he will appear to them as their Messiah and The Christ.


    David

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by highflyertoo View Post
    Then why haven't the translators applied the name Messiah to all the verses?
    The answer is simple. The translators didn't consider the other verses to refer to Christ. And not all think that Dan 9:26 should be translated as "Messiah." The translations vary. Some have "the Anointed One" others as "the anointed one" and others "an anointed one." But none of this matters because the Hebrew text uses the same word in all these verses I shared in my previous post. It is simply absurd to try to base a case about the "real name" of Jesus using only English translations.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    The answer is simple. The translators didn't consider the other verses to refer to Christ. And not all think that Dan 9:26 should be translated as "Messiah." The translations vary. Some have "the Anointed One" others as "the anointed one" and others "an anointed one." But none of this matters because the Hebrew text uses the same word in all these verses I shared in my previous post. It is simply absurd to try to base a case about the "real name" of Jesus using only English translations.
    You said Christ means anointed one in Greek...

    Yet your answer in your quote says... The answer is simple. The translators didn't consider the other verses to refer to Christ........ So who is Christ if indeed the word as you say means the same thing? You are saying there's no difference in the name but the translators are saying there is a difference to whom gets called ''Messiah''.

    So who gets called the Messiah in reference to God's Son?

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