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  1. #1
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    His Words: Grace or Abyss of Confusion?

    Hello! Richard said,
    Now here is the fundamental problem: If the Bible really is from God, and God "doesn't beget son, literally or figuratively," then why did God produce a book that emphatically states that Jesus is the only-begotten son of God? Was he just having fun confusing us?
    Thank you Richard for your comments. Your fundamental question deserves a separate thread and a fundamental discussion, here is my point of view:

    Look at a tree and its blossoms, look at them attentively. Do you see any discrepancy? any fault? Turn your gaze.... look at the moon, look at the stars mindfully. Do you see any disproportion? any imperfection? Turn your gaze again,...and again till your gaze comes back to you tired and dazzled! You won't find any inconsistency, any imperfection, any disproportion in the creations of the merciful. Now I ask you: Why do we think that the word of the same merciful, the same perfect creator, the maker of all this functional consistency could be confusing?? Was not the whole creation started by His words?? and is not the scripture His own words again? (in the form of letters? or have we limited it to?)

    You know, by the time that we are grown up enough to read His divine word for ourselves independently, our minds already are in effect fully preoccupied with an ocean of humanism. And to be honest, by that time, its already too late except, God himself, saves us from that abyss. The irony is that we are told that only He, is the uppermost, all-mighty and all-knower, yet His words are the last thing being taught to us:

    We open our eyes in the midst of family traditions and dark upbringings of our parents, then one day they give us a school bag and makes us sit in an education system, which is designed based on our ruler's favorite goals and objectives! By the time we become literate to read and write, we find ourselves under the bombardments of story books, novels, poems, musics, radio programs, TV programs, magazines, daily papers, films, internet, then comes high school teachings and all the doctrines they inject us with, you name it: from our version of history that proves us right!...to the belief that humanism and rationality (product of our own uncertain assumptions) is the only way to salvation! Then comes higher education as if they repeat everything over and over to make sure we all have got hypnotized in the abyss of rational nonsense! Afterwards, the best of us, and I'd say it again, the best of us, who would manage to approach the divine word, will approach it with a mind full of already made conclusions and doctrines about life, knowledge and even faith and religion itself!...It is this abyss that darkens our hearts (Heart: a word void of any meaning in school of rationality).

    Summary:
    We find the word of divine confusing because we live in a "Dialectic" culture. A culture based on philosophy and the power of brain and thought. Today, around the globe, the dialectic ground is our only vehicle of approaching and understanding life grounds. In converse, the culture of divine word is an "Agro-Bio" culture. It does not have any philosophy in it, neither does it work based on the power of thought! But it samples the results of creation for the heart of human-being, so that the heart realizes the message. In effect, human's heart, is THE most complex system ever discovered yet. Its mechanism, its functionality, its language, is only described and "prescribed" in the word of divine (and not in the Hellenistic theosophy of Mr. Rational Nonsense or Aristotle!):
    For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Gospel Matt 13:15)

    What, have they not journeyed in the land so that they have hearts to understand with or ears to hear with? It is not the eyes that are blind, but blind are the hearts within the chests. (Quran 22:46)

    Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day (Torah Deut 29:4)

    (sidebar) Three books with the same unique language. Is it not enough to believe that He who has sent them down is the same one?


    How to move from a dialectic culture to culture of the divine word? (My prescription )

    1. Erase all the doctrines you have ever been taught by dialectic philosophy. God is not a philosopher, because he doesn't lie! You name them: Universalism/Global Caliphate/Incarnation/Trinity and more importantly Aristotelian logic! (Basically anything that proclaims philosopher is the all-knower!!).

    2. Turn off TV/Radio/film/music, since they play with your eyes and your ears or both, to access your heart. They play with your perception of reality. Turn it off. (as I've done it since 5 years ago). Don't consume other sort of media. Remember: Information is the name, persuasion is the game.

    3. In this point you'll suddenly find loads of extra time! and a sense of relief from all these burden of nonsense. But is your heart clean yet? Do you watch your deeds? Do you care for the orphan? Do you care for the homeless? Do you pray purely only for God? (not even calling anybody beside him in your taugh times?)

    4.Seek your theological answers in the signs and marks of creation not theology books, church or mosque.

    Therefore observe the result of God’s mercy, how He revives the earth after its death; He will indeed resurrect the dead; and He is Able to do all things. (Quran 30:50)
    (This is the Agro-Bio language. You can find this type of language in the whole Bible as well).

    Philosopher's language, in converse, is a dialectic language, based on human made logic and assumptions. But God doesn't talk based on ingenuity, he talks based on the "ultimate reality" that you can see, smell, taste, touch and hear. That's the difference, and that's the key to help us come out of the abyss of confusion. The philosopher's language basically can not approach the word of divine without assuming human-made presumptions. And with presumptions the ground of the divine word gets inevitably distorted. So its the human being who distorts the divine word, not anyone else. We should change our vehicle then!

    5. Then unknown things will happen to your heart after doing all these! ...nobody knows what they are, God knows it all only.

    6. Now with all things done so far, take some time to study and ponder the words of scripture now with your new heart and with your new eye and with your new ear. Don't ask the dictionary, but ask his words, his signs (including from Torah to Quran) to reveal the truth for you. He will put it in front of you if he wishes to.

    Keep all these ongoing for some time..and look back then. What would you see?

    With the very bests,
    Ali.

  2. #2
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    COMMENTARY

    COMMENTARY may be from those who don't understand the original, though they spent much time perusing it, and learning about the Confounded Language (Gen 11:7) which includes poetry, figures of speech, and allegory. The 1,2, 3 order permits the Gospel to learn from the Torah, [Gal 3:24] but NOTHING to endorse Mohammed. The counterfeit is not as worthy as the original.

    1. Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day (Torah Deut 29:4)

    2. For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Gospel Matt 13:15)

    3. What, have they not journeyed in the land so that they have hearts to understand with or ears to hear with? It is not the eyes that are blind, but blind are the hearts within the chests. (Quran 22:46)


    The Michigan Koran says it like this:

    Surah 22.43 - And the people of Ibrahim and the people of Lut, [Abraham - Lot]
    [22.44] As well as those of Madyan and Musa (too) was rejected, but I gave respite to the unbelievers, then did I overtake them, so how (severe) was My disapproval.
    [22.45] So how many a town did We destroy while it was unjust, so it was fallen down upon its roofs, and (how many a) deserted well and palace raised high.
    [22.46] Have they not travelled in the land so that they should have hearts with which to understand, or ears with which to hear? For surely it is not the eyes that are blind, but blind are the hearts which are in the breasts.
    [22.47] And they ask you to hasten on the punishment, and Allah will by no means fail in His promise, and surely a day with your Lord is as a thousand years of what you number. [Ps90 or 2Pet3:8]

    ..
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by ali View Post
    Hello! Richard said,


    Thank you Richard for your comments. Your fundamental question deserves a separate thread and a fundamental discussion, here is my point of view:

    Look at a tree and its blossoms, look at them attentively. Do you see any discrepancy? any fault? Turn your gaze.... look at the moon, look at the stars mindfully. Do you see any disproportion? any imperfection? Turn your gaze again,...and again till your gaze comes back to you tired and dazzled! You won't find any inconsistency, any imperfection, any disproportion in the creations of the merciful. Now I ask you: Why do we think that the word of the same merciful, the same perfect creator, the maker of all this functional consistency could be confusing?? Was not the whole creation started by His words?? and is not the scripture His own words again? (in the form of letters? or have we limited it to?)
    Hi Ali,

    If I look around me and see no discrepancy, and see no fault in creation, why would I attribute those things to the God of the Bible which is full of discrepancies and full of fault? Just asking

    All the best,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  4. #4
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    Hi Ali,

    If I look around me and see no discrepancy, and see no fault in creation, why would I attribute those things to the God of the Bible which is full of discrepancies and full of fault? Just asking
    Hi Rose

    Because had there been another god beside God who has created the perfect universe and spelled the Bible, they would surely have sought ways of opposition against each other!!

    With the very best,
    Ali.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ali View Post
    Hi Rose

    Because had there been another god beside God who has created the perfect universe and spelled the Bible, they would surely have sought ways of opposition against each other!!

    With the very best,
    Ali.
    Hi Ali,

    Well, that doesn't really answer my question.

    How can you get a perfect universe from a very imperfect book, that portrays a very primitive tribal war god, who is constantly seeking vengeance against the humans he supposedly created? Looks upside down and backwards to me.

    All the best,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi Ali,

    Well, that doesn't really answer my question.

    How can you get a perfect universe from a very imperfect book, that portrays a very primitive tribal war god, who is constantly seeking vengeance against the humans he supposedly created? Looks upside down and backwards to me.

    All the best,
    Rose
    Hello again Rose

    I have to disagree with your choice of words. It is more a case of the constant rebellion of man, and man constantly corrupting God's people and destroying the earth which is giving God constant cause to take vengeance. If we have seen God taking vengeance on the nations surrounding Israel, (and we know Israel were not entirely without blame), then it was God's right to do so. God gave man warning, and man was told by God what not to do and what God considered offensive to Him. You should admit that man is in the wrong for disobeying God. God was true to His Word and exercised vengeance to help His people and set an example for all to see and learn from.

    For centuries, God has not taken vengeance. God is always active and He will steer man's course to bring about His purpose. Those who look for God's hand to be at work behind the politial leaders of the nations can recognize this. Consider all the attrocitites taking place in the world right now and who is to blame? The answer has to be; man. Yet the unbelievers will simply deny God for not intervening to stop human disasters, which man could have prevented. If we fly in aeroplanes, which are man-made machines, we take the risk. We are putting our faith in man-made machines and blaming God when they crash. And so, if God does not intervene in wars and God does not take vengeance for one side or the other, God also gets blamed by man.

    If you think God has done terrible things in the past, when He avenged His chosen people and took vengeance on reprobates who were not worth saving and who were dispensible, that will pale into insignificance, when the Day of the Lord comes. God has declared He is going to "destroy those who are destroying the earth". God is even now preparing the nations to do battle in the Middle East around Israel, and when this takes place, the judgement of the nations will take place and there will be death and destruction on a scale we have never witnessed. God only promised not to flood the earth again, He did not promise not to create such great destruction of life by other means; it will happen again. 90% of the earth's population is living on the 'ring of fire' around the pacific rim. People know their homes are at risk of earthquakes and flooding and and yet they choose to do nothing about it. Men turn a blind eye until something happens. It should come as no surprise when God shakes the earth. There is no reason to believe this will not literally happen. Shaking will be manifest in violent earthquakes triggered around the globe. And when this happens, those who survive can attribute the disaster to God, or put it down to natural forces. All these things are coming to a head in which the great day of wrath is coming.

    God is in control. He can direct the steps of men in government to bring about His purpose. The forces of nature are at His control and His timing is spot on. Seismologists are predicting a massive erruption, but they cannot tell when, and when it does, either it will be seen as the outpouring of the wrath of God on the world or simply put down to natural causes.

    Great changes are ahead and we cannot say we have not been told. God has given us a way of escape. Believers have the assurance they will be saved and can expect to be taken away before the great shaking of the earth takes place. Those who refuse to believe and reject God will not know what has hit them and those who do survive will be in great distress. A new world order is coming and we have been told in advance; it will not be of man's making.

    Consider the following quotations; "to me belongeth vengeance and recompense." "I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me." "and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people". "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompense; he will come and save you".

    What you think of God will depend on whose side you are. Do you want to be on the receiving end of God's wrath or on the side receiving His protection?

    God's vengeance is more than outweighed by the Love of God to them that love and fear Him and believe in Him. Unlike man, who is weighed in the balances and found wanting, if you could weigh God in the balances, His love and his mercy and grace would outweigh by far His vengeance poured out on undeserving people, whose thoughts and actions are indefensible.

    And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
    Those who see these calamitous times coming, they are looking upwards towards God to save them. Those who are looking downwards towards the earth will be consumed by it.

    Rose, I hope your perception of God can change again and for the better. Look for wisdom and in getting wisdom, get understanding.

    David
    Last edited by David M; 04-09-2012 at 03:28 AM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello again Rose

    I have to disagree with your choice of words. It is more a case of the constant rebellion of man, and man constantly corrupting God's people and destroying the earth which is giving God constant cause to take vengeance. If we have seen God taking vengeance on the nations surrounding Israel, (and we know Israel were not entirely without blame), then it was God's right to do so. God gave man warning, and man was told by God what not to do and what God considered offensive to Him. You should admit that man is in the wrong for disobeying God. God was true to His Word and exercised vengeance to help His people and set an example for all to see and learn from.
    Hi David,

    Actually, quite the opposite. I think it is good for man to disobey the god of the Bible, especially when he tells his people to go and slaughter the women and children and rape the virgins! Yahweh has set a horrible example for mankind in the Bible and it's time people open their eyes to the immorality it contains.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    If you think God has done terrible things in the past, when He avenged His chosen people and took vengeance on reprobates who were not worth saving and who were dispensable, that will pale into insignificance, when the Day of the Lord comes. God has declared He is going to "destroy those who are destroying the earth". God is even now preparing the nations to do battle in the Middle East around Israel, and when this takes place, the judgement of the nations will take place and there will be death and destruction on a scale we have never witnessed. God only promised not to flood the earth again, He did not promise not to create such great destruction of life by other means; it will happen again. 90% of the earth's population is living on the 'ring of fire' around the pacific rim. People know their homes are at risk of earthquakes and flooding and and yet they choose to do nothing about it. Men turn a blind eye until something happens. It should come as no surprise when God shakes the earth. There is no reason to believe this will not literally happen. Shaking will be manifest in violent earthquakes triggered around the globe. And when this happens, those who survive can attribute the disaster to God, or put it down to natural forces. All these things are coming to a head in which the great day of wrath is coming.

    God is in control. He can direct the steps of men in government to bring about His purpose. The forces of nature are at His control and His timing is spot on. Seismologists are predicting a massive erruption, but they cannot tell when, and when it does, either it will be seen as the outpouring of the wrath of God on the world or simply put down to natural causes.
    Wow! Those are some pretty harsh words! Sounds to me like the Bible has really hardened your heart, to be able to speak of all the innocent people that were killed by Yahweh as being "reprobates" and "dispensable". I am stunned

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Great changes are ahead and we cannot say we have not been told. God has given us a way of escape. Believers have the assurance they will be saved and can expect to be taken away before the great shaking of the earth takes place. Those who refuse to believe and reject God will not know what has hit them and those who do survive will be in great distress. A new world order is coming and we have been told in advance; it will not be of man's making.

    Consider the following quotations; "to me belongeth vengeance and recompense." "I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me." "and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people". "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompense; he will come and save you".

    What you think of God will depend on whose side you are. Do you want to be on the receiving end of God's wrath or on the side receiving His protection?

    God's vengeance is more than outweighed by the Love of God to them that love and fear Him and believe in Him. Unlike man, who is weighed in the balances and found wanting, if you could weigh God in the balances, His love and his mercy and grace would outweigh by far His vengeance poured out on undeserving people, whose thoughts and actions are indefensible.

    And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
    Those who see these calamitous times coming, they are looking upwards towards God to save them. Those who are looking downwards towards the earth will be consumed by it.

    Rose, I hope your perception of God can change again and for the better. Look for wisdom and in getting wisdom, get understanding.

    David
    VENGEANCE, Vengeance, vengeance, that's all I hear from Yahweh...and what is the reason for all this vengeance that I read about in the Bible, well it's because people didn't worship him the way he wanted them to! Wow! Talk about a BIG ego. What kind of an example is that? It's like a parent killing their children because they don't worship them enough.

    How can my perception of Yahweh ever change when his character is un-changeably written in the pages of the Bible?


    All the best,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi David,

    Actually, quite the opposite. I think it is good for man to disobey the god of the Bible, especially when he tells his people to go and slaughter the women and children and rape the virgins! Yahweh has set a horrible example for mankind in the Bible and it's time people open their eyes to the immorality it contains.



    Wow! Those are some pretty harsh words! Sounds to me like the Bible has really hardened your heart, to be able to speak of all the innocent people that were killed by Yahweh as being "reprobates" and "dispensable". I am stunned



    VENGEANCE, Vengeance, vengeance, that's all I hear from Yahweh...and what is the reason for all this vengeance that I read about in the Bible, well it's because people didn't worship him the way he wanted them to! Wow! Talk about a BIG ego. What kind of an example is that? It's like a parent killing their children because they don't worship them enough.

    How can my perception of Yahweh ever change when his character is un-changeably written in the pages of the Bible?


    All the best,
    Rose
    On the same note, I would say that we disobey humans because humans has been killing humans, children, women, animals and every horrible things for millions of years! Let's open our eyes to human immorality and horrors that has been continuing for million of years till today. All evils were created by humans and let's look forward to the time when Someone will come and destroy all evils and make this place a much better place to live in.

    In Jesus Name.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    On the same note, I would say that we disobey humans because humans has been killing humans, children, women, animals and every horrible things for millions of years! Let's open our eyes to human immorality and horrors that has been continuing for million of years till today. All evils were created by humans and let's look forward to the time when Someone will come and destroy all evils and make this place a much better place to live in.

    In Jesus Name.
    You are exactly right! All evils were created by humans, just like all good also comes from humans, so it's going to be humans that have to figure out how to get along and treat each other equally. The Bible only complicates things by creating a god who treats people unequally, unfairly and unjustly!

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    You are exactly right! All evils were created by humans, just like all good also comes from humans, so it's going to be humans that have to figure out how to get along and treat each other equally. The Bible only complicates things by creating a god who treats people unequally, unfairly and unjustly!

    Rose
    How can human being distinguish evil from good without a manual? God is the only all-knower, thus only His words can be THE manual. If any human prescribes/proposes a manual for himself or others, he/she will end up claiming to be that all-knower, his/her own God !! and this is a contradiction!

    Ali.

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