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  1. #51
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    2nd half (continued from 1st half)



    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    God did not demonstrate ANYTHING AT ALL because there he was not involved in any visible way. All the Canaanites saw was just another marauding band of murderous madmen invading their land, stealing their women and homes.
    I think the Canaanites were less blind and deaf as you appear to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    You have not yet successful refuted my solution in any way at all.
    I have but you have failed to read what I have said. I might not have refuted it as completely as I could, one or two reasons that I have given is sufficient.


    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Wrong again. My solution would have prevented the death of all the children because they would not have been born. And it doesn't matter if it didn't solve the problem instantly since neither did God's solution solve the problem instantly. You are inconsistent in your reasoning. You are not looking for truth, you are merely making up eithoxcuses to protect your dogma. This demonstrates the futility of your "questions" - you will not accept any answer that contradicts your dogma. Simple as that.
    It is simple that I will not accept your arguments; I am not against accepting arguments that make sense. I fail to see the sense in your one suggestion. It might be argued that God is doing what you want here and now and is not giving out punishment like He did in the past. You are not a futurist, and as far as I can tell you don't believe that God's punishment is coming on all the nations that will be gathered around Israel in future. Who knows, you might be alive to witness it and when it happens what will you think?
    I reject anything that is not accordance with God's word and that is what we have to get to the bottom of. As you say; the Bible "clearly states" and so why should I not stick to what the Bible clearly states. The fact that you have changed your mind goes to show how unstable your are. God's word does not change, though you cannot discern that.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    And there is no "added problem" that people "would not have voluntarily given up their land and their homes and moved out" because they would have died out before the Israelites got there if God started his plan in a timely fashion.
    Maybe you should have suggested before now and shown us how that would work.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Your assertion that "There is not one shread of evidence to say that man's evil has diminished in the last 6,000 years" is patently false. I live in peace with millions of people. There has never been a time like this in the history of the world. People are much better morally now than then. Or if not, then your assertion that they were so evil is false because we are not practicing the kind of evils that were common back then.
    Have you counted the hundreds of wars taking place in the world at this point in time. The earth's population is now around the 3 or 4 billion mark; a far greater number than was alive 2 or 3 thousand years ago. If many had not died in wars who knows what the population would be now. Look at the terrible crimes of the state that is taking place in Syria. This is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg. When you make rubbish comparisons, you do yourself no credit. I do not know millions of people. Living in peace with several hundred maybe. Then again, I do not know the true colors of people I meet. There are many wolves in sheep's clothing. There is good and bad in every generation and there is no proof that the world on a whole is any less evil than it was.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Your assertion that my solution "contains a lot of ifs and buts" is entirely false and unfounded.
    Prove it then!! You have already said; "it depends..". Your dependancies are just a load of "if"s.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Your assertion that is "has no degree of certainty to be the best solution" is irrelevant because I didn't say it was best. I explicitly said it was BETTER than genocide. And that should be obvious to anyone with a good human heart.
    You are a humanist and having a good heart toward your fellow man means nothing when it is more important to have a good heart toward God. Having the the latter will automatically make a person have a good heart toward their neighbor. Humanist thinking is flawed, because (as we agree) we are imperfect.


    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    We all are just expressing our opinions. But the difference between your opinions and mine is that mine are based on logic and facts, whereas yours are based on dogma that cannot be questioned.
    My opinions are based on reasoning from the Bible and reconciling the word instead of believing the myths about fallen Holy Angels of God and the like. While you promote such beliefs it is hardly surprising that I do not consider your opinions are based on fact and logic; far from it.


    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    I did answer your question. I said "God could have dealt with the Canaanites just like he did with the Jews."
    The seriousness of the Canaanites was more serious than the Jews at that time and God did what was best at the time. God had to make corrections later on because the Israelites did not obey His instructions to the letter. Once again, you blame God and not man. It is man that brings evil on himself because he commits evil in the first place. Stop that cycle and things might improve.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Your assertion "You are blind because of the darkness in your heart and cannot see any light" is quite ironic coming from a dogmatist who has had his opinion given to him in a book. You are the one who is blind. So blind, in fact, that you call evil good because that's what the book says!
    Your reading of other works of fiction does not make you any wiser in the word of God. In this you are blind. If I have convinced myself of certain matters as a result of God's word, you cannot say I am blind. You have to remove the beam in your own eye before you can make accusations about my blindness due to a small moat in my eye. We should get down to sound argument instead of these trivial assertions. You are turning a blind eye to giving out punishment to suit the crime. You have not answered my question as to what punishment you would administer to child-killers in our present judicial system.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    There is no evidence that God wanted the Canaanites to inquire of the Jews to learn of God. On the contrary, he commanded the Jews to kill them all!
    There does not have to be evidence to know that this is what God wanted. He expected them to once they became aware that God was on the side or the Israelites. Rahab had heard the fame of the Israelites and their God. Rahab was saved. It just goes to show that God will save those who acknowledge him and do as Rahab did; not forgetting that Rahab was a harlot and she was not condemned by God. God knows the heart of everyone and knows if they are innately good or bad. Only God can judge correctly, which is why your judgment cannot compete.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    The Canaanites were just humans. They were no different than the Israelites. Your assertion that "the Canaanites were selfish and their hearts were hardened to their ways" could be said about anyone, including the Jews. It is irrelevant to this discussion.
    It is a factor that comes into the equation. Some peoples hearts are hardened more than others and therefore God knows who to give up on. Of course it can be said of the Jews. Because the Jews were given God's laws and they happened to be Abraham's descendants, did not make them individually any different to anyone else. The fact that they were given God's law gave them an advantage and they were supposed to be examples, but they failed. They were examples, but not always in a good way and they showed how fickle they were as a people, following the leadership of good and bad kings.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Your assertion that I need to "reconcile God's word" is absurd because when people do that, they all come to different conclusions. Take yourself as a prime example. The way you have "reconciled God's word" has put outside the faith of almost all Christians who have ever lived!
    If you cannot reconcile the word of God, you can never have the truth. Everything to you remains unreconciled and you do not know what to believe. You have the greater problem. Because I am reconciling the word and reaching my conclusion, you then accuse me of being dogmatic. I never claim to be dogmatic about everything, but there are some basics that everyone should be able to understand and accept and not have need to change. The fact that those basics are also rejected just goes to show that it is futile talking to some people. Time is better spent helping those who are seriously looking to understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    This is not a "contest of intellects." It is a contest of truth.
    I am glad it is not a contest of intellects. I will give you that honor if it was. Theorizing does not get anyone to understand God's truth. It is not a contest of truth, it is a contest of who believes the least number of lies. The truth is, and if we do not recognize the truth correctly, we do not have the truth. Who knows which one of us knows the truth more; this is for God to judge. After all, God has revealed His word to us and He will be the final arbiter to decide.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    I avoided nothing. The question would serve as an answer if you answered it. You have not shown any flaw in the answer I have given. It may not be the best (who knows? there could be better answers) but it certainly is better than genocide.
    You do not know that it is better than genocide in ridding the land evil practices that would come back to bite God's people. They failed to keep God's instruction and it did come back to bite them and that is why God also punished the Israelites. You should accuse God of partiality, but then you will as Rose has already been doing so.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    I repeated the answer because you repeated the question!
    In that case I will not repeat the answer as I cannot see the question in this post to respond to. At least this endless circle is broken here.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    And I don't need to prove it is the "best" answer - that's just a diversionary trick. I had only to prove that it was better than turning the Israelites into genocidal maniacs, and it seems pretty clear that I've done that.
    They were not turned into "genocidal maniacs"; that is another of your wild assertions. You can say anything you like and leave it to God-fearing people to argue against you. You are not putting forward any evidence to support your wild assertion. It is plain as day what you are doing.


    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Then God didn't solve any problems by ordering the genocide, since they continue to this day (according to you). So by your argument, God failed. Nice work!
    The Israelites failed to carry out the command and so God's strategy was compromised. Genocide of those nations living in the Promised Land was not going to solve the long-term problem; I never said it would. We know the Israelites were fickle, that is why the temptation to them had to be eliminated and so was done quickly. Temptations would have ultimately come from nations further afield. God did not fail, the Israelites failed God.


    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Again, I never said it was "best." That's you trick to avoid the obvious truth that it is better than genocide.
    You mean it was probably your worst solution? I agree with that! Genocide is a hard punishment to fit the crime, but it was not only the crimes they had committed but the crimes they would continue to commit if nothing was done. Considering their was not 10 people worth saving in Sodom and Gomorrah, and God would have spared those cities if there had been. Based on the mercy God would have shown to Sodom and Gomorrah, it must say something about the people he destroyed in Canaan. Again, God spared Nineveh when they repented. Once God has judged people to be reprobates, they are beyond saving. God has many more men and women being born who have the opportunity to respond and who he can select. If you put yourself outside of God's protection, you have no-one to blame but yourself. You cannot blame God for not taking up the opportunity that he has extended to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    And I never once said it was the "only" solution. Why are you making up things like that?
    I am not making things up, I said it because you did not offer any other solution and did not say you had another solution to offer. If you have a better solution then please let us know what it is.


    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    You have not shown any flaw in my solution. You have not shown that genocide was better.
    I have stated it was better, but you have once again not identified what I have said. I said that I could only comment on your solution. I said God's solution was more immediate. Your solution would not have reduced the problem quickly. With Israel's failing to carry out God's instruction, we cannot say that God's solution would not have been more effective than it was. God was only dealing with a handfuls of nations and this problem is world wide. God's plan was to get his chosen race settle in the Promised Land. To do so also put the onus on Israel to carry out the instruction and to the nasty work that it was but I suggest it was less nasty to the culture of that period. Modern day war is equally horrendous. What do you do when a murder threatens your own life? If you do not believe in God or follow his instructions, I would not expect you to turn the other cheek, but instead I would expect you to defend yourself and retaliate. You still did not answer my question about what punishment you would give out to child-killers.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    And again, you err when you say "it is by no means perfect." I never said it was "perfect." You just made that up because you know that arguments about "perfection" can never be resolved because no one has perfect knowledge.
    I bow to God's greater knowledge and wisdom. If you cannot then so be it. Man is imperfect and so we are both imperfect and have to accept that as a given.


    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    You would get the same results if you prayed to a milk jug.
    I have seen this so many times, it becomes tedious. I appreciate that you are replying to so many people and OK this is the first time you have put this in your reply to me. It is not very helpful. Prayer is something we shall not agree on, we have made our statements so I shall try to not say any more on this in posts to you.



    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Yes, you "dealt with my answers" but your dealings utterly failed to refute them.
    I don't think I "utterly failed to refute them", there is only so many hours in the day I can spend refuting all your wild assertions, so it is to be expected I can only give one or two reasons to sufficiently reply, which I have done. 'what I am saying is not registering with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Your obsession with the obscure and ambiguous elements in the book of Jude is typical of people who make up their own doctrines. It is no "watershed" - or if it is, it is a watershed that proves how pagan mythology was imported into the Bible. But you won't even LOOK at the data, let alone attempt to refute it, because it contradicts your dogmas. And besides, you have already a FIXED DOGMA about the meaning of Jude, so nothing I say would make any difference to you, no matter how true it is. And that's a true pity, especially since Christianity has no claim to anything if not truth. That's the ultimate irony of Christian fundamentalism. It claims to be based on truth, but those who adhere to it have the least familiarity with truth out of all the humans I have ever encountered.
    I am not making up doctrine, I have reasoned Jude v6 for myself and I am asking you to do the same. It is a watershed because unless you show me some reason and examine each verse of Jude and get the whole context in place, you are not studying the Bible. It does matter what you say, because it can show to others how your have reasoned. I can only guess you are repeating what you have learned from text books without applying yourself to the text. I am the one in the minority on this forum and I expect that my reasoning will be rejected by most, but I am prepared to show how I derive who the angels are that Jude refers to. He is not referring back to Enoch in verse 6 and as I have explained to you in another post and I know you have rejected the Book of Enoch yourself, which is why I am surprised you even bring it in as evidence to support your claim. Apart from the mention of Enoch in Jude, there is no evidence that Jude is referring to the Book of Enoch. This is yet another false assumption you have learned from others.
    If I am fixed in my dogma, it is because the truth does not change. You have changed from calling yourself a Christian to becoming an atheist or agnostic. The truth could never have been in you from the start if you have now renounced God's word as truth.


    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Despite our many differences, I still appreciate your participation. It's actually very enlightening.
    If you are enlightened in anyway that is something. I hope to enlighten you some more and maybe we will both get closer to the truth that we are both missing.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    All the best,

    Richard
    Likewise

    David
    Last edited by David M; 04-22-2012 at 05:01 AM.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Hi David,

    Yes, that was the correct link, but I forgot it only talked about one quote, not multiple quotes. I updated it so it explains quotes within quotes. Don't hesitate to respond to that thread if you still have questions.

    That's very strange about the problem with the typos. It may be because of your browser. I usually use Firefox. But I haven't seen the problem with editing even when using IE9. But I'll keep any eye out for it.

    The Multi-Quote button allows you to quote more than one post at a time. If you click it on two posts, both posts will be seen in quotes in the edit box.

    Many HTML tags are recognized in the edit box, but it can be a little dicey. Just give it a shot and see what happens. There's nothing to worry about.

    The thing I like about Firefox is that the spell checker works as you type, just like in any word processor. The spell checker for IE has to be invoked by a command. It's a bother.

    Good luck with all this computer stuff.

    Richard
    Thanks Richard
    we ought to be having this conversation in your help section. My computer, browser and wireless router does crazy things at time. I was using Firefox until my computer would not download the attachments on the forum so I have switched back to IE and see how that goes for a while. I am gradually adding extras to IE that I had with Firefox. They all have their pros and cons.
    I think from what you say, I see the idea of multi quotes. It is not or doing quotes within quotes but as you say bringing in quotes from different posts. I shall play around and see what happens.

    I have tried copying a pasting to my HTML and it was not successful, the color tags do not work. Spell check in IE is working OK. Now I can lessen the number or edits I make as every time I come back to a post I keep finding new typos. One or two is OK but hey in the last post I did in reply to you, there were plenty to correct. Having a slow response in the browser does not help and I expect when it auto saves the screen might freeze a little. I do not know, it might be because the compute has had too many windows open and too many caches need emptying.

    For now it is not too bad, I think having a very long post does not help.

    All the best

    David
    Last edited by David M; 04-21-2012 at 07:06 PM. Reason: forgot to spell check

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post


    God could have done everything and that would have left the Israelites with nothing to do whereby in the process their own obedience was tested and then they failed as we know. You are making excuses more for the Canaanites that I am making or God or the Israelites. What is your direct punishment for child-killers in today's society in America? Apply the the same punishment to the Canaanites. Or do you want to give them a slap on the wrist and say; don't do it again. What is a child-killer's punishment?



    To be continued in the next half
    Hi David,

    Yes, if God had done his own dirty work, he wouldn't have turned the Hebrews into baby killers and rapists, and since God already knew the Canaanites were going to sacrifice their babies and he still allowed them to become a race of people then all the blame lies on his doorstep.

    I think whatever punishment is determined suitable for child-killers, should not only be applied to the Canaanites but also to God. When all the figures are counted, God is responsible for a lot more infant and children's deaths then the Canaanites did thousands of times over.

    All the best,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi David,

    Yes, if God had done his own dirty work, he wouldn't have turned the Hebrews into baby killers and rapists, and since God already knew the Canaanites were going to sacrifice their babies and he still allowed them to become a race of people then all the blame lies on his doorstep.

    I think whatever punishment is determined suitable for child-killers, should not only be applied to the Canaanites but also to God. When all the figures are counted, God is responsible for a lot more infant and children's deaths then the Canaanites did thousands of times over.

    All the best,
    Rose
    Good morning Rose

    This subject will go on and on and on and on.............

    You stil have not answered the question and divert answering by sidetracking.

    If you agree that the child-killer should be killed and the same punishment applied to God, you are saying that we should kill God. I know you have killed Him in your heart.

    If you kill God, you deny thousands and milions of being given salvation come the resurrection. How can God do this if we kill him off?

    By your irrational thinking you are denying all the promises and good things to come from God and throw all that away because you cannot reconcile His justice and punishment to fit the crime.

    You are under the same penalty of death, as we all are and whereas God has given us hope and assurance, and (some) wisdom to understand, that death is not the end but is an arbiter, you want to throw all of God's mercy and love and His gift of eternal life down the pan. No right thinking person having come to that knowledge and belief based on the evidence they have to support that belief is going to change their mind, which you want them to do. Because they will not change their mind, you accuse them of holding on to their dogma. Your arguments are weak and futile, and it is a wonder anyone stays on this forum to keep hearing the same message from you in differently guised threads. I think you should post in a completely different section titled "God Bashing" so everyone can ignore you posts.

    I know this reply is a total waste of time, I hope others reading this, have seen through your weak arguments and come to the same conclusion as I have.


    Anyway, all the best for your recovery.

    David

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi David,

    Yes, if God had done his own dirty work, he wouldn't have turned the Hebrews into baby killers and rapists, and since God already knew the Canaanites were going to sacrifice their babies and he still allowed them to become a race of people then all the blame lies on his doorstep.

    I think whatever punishment is determined suitable for child-killers, should not only be applied to the Canaanites but also to God. When all the figures are counted, God is responsible for a lot more infant and children's deaths then the Canaanites did thousands of times over.

    All the best,
    Rose
    If God is punished for being child-killers so are millions of teenagers and adults for aborting their babies! Do you want God to do that? Should the US government be punished for sending young men to be killed or be women and child and men killers in the Vietnam wars, Iraq wars, Afghan war? Why can't the US government nuclear bombed those countries instead of sending young men to be killed or be killers there?

    Let's be fair to God and answer those questions.


    May God shows us Mercy and Love.
    Last edited by CWH; 04-22-2012 at 08:58 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Good morning Rose

    This subject will go on and on and on and on.............

    You stil have not answered the question and divert answering by sidetracking.

    If you agree that the child-killer should be killed and the same punishment applied to God, you are saying that we should kill God. I know you have killed Him in your heart.

    If you kill God, you deny thousands and milions of being given salvation come the resurrection. How can God do this if we kill him off?

    By your irrational thinking you are denying all the promises and good things to come from God and throw all that away because you cannot reconcile His justice and punishment to fit the crime.

    You are under the same penalty of death, as we all are and whereas God has given us hope and assurance, and (some) wisdom to understand, that death is not the end but is an arbiter, you want to throw all of God's mercy and love and His gift of eternal life down the pan. No right thinking person having come to that knowledge and belief based on the evidence they have to support that belief is going to change their mind, which you want them to do. Because they will not change their mind, you accuse them of holding on to their dogma. Your arguments are weak and futile, and it is a wonder anyone stays on this forum to keep hearing the same message from you in differently guised threads. I think you should post in a completely different section titled "God Bashing" so everyone can ignore you posts.

    I know this reply is a total waste of time, I hope others reading this, have seen through your weak arguments and come to the same conclusion as I have.


    Anyway, all the best for your recovery.

    David
    Hi David,

    I'm sorry you're getting so frustrated with my speaking the truth... But the fact of the matter is that if one is going to call the Canaanites child-killers, then one must also call God a child-killer...even though I know you don't like the sound of it.

    Yes, I have said Yahweh is child-killer and rapist every way I can possibly think of in hopes that maybe the message will get through, but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears and hardened hearts. Of course I understand that a person who believes that Yahweh is the creator of morality, could not believe that Yahweh would commit immoral acts himself, but that is exactly what we read in the pages of Scripture...over, and over again children and babies are killed and women raped...all done in the name of God!

    You know, maybe with all of Yahweh's so called foreknowledge he would have come up with a better design for humans. Obviously there is a major flaw in our design, because no matter how many times Yahweh has killed off evil humans they just seem to become evil all over again! Another huge flaw is in the way Yahweh set up his hierarchical order...would anyone in their right mind set up a system where flawed humans have the rule over other humans? It's sort of like giving your male children rule over your female children, how crazy is that? A perfect god should know better.

    Nice chatting,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Why would a God who prohibited murder and theft command his people to invade a land that was not theirs, murder its inhabitants, and steal their possessions? How do these commands differ from those of any brutal Bronze age tribal war god?
    It was God's land; why don't you realize that? It was promised to Abraham, because it was God's to give. They differ because God is not as you assert. I have stated enough why this assertion is untrue, you can discern that from my replies.
    First, you didn't answer my questions.

    Second, the fact that God owns everything does not mean that it makes sense for him to command his people to murder and steal, contrary to his commandments.

    This is the problem with Christian morality. It is entirely inconsistent. Case in point: Keith Darrell claimed that there could be no "absolute morality" without God, and then refused to say that Infanticide, Slavery, and Genocide were absolutely immoral. This proves that the Christian claim of "absolute morality" is meaningless - it has nothing to do with morality as normally understood. What they really mean when they say "absolute morality" is "whatever God commands in the Bible" regardless if it is moral or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    This is why I say that fundamentalist religion corrupts both the minds and the morals of all who adhere to it. You have to declare, against all reason and morality, that the slaughter of innocents is not only "good" but the "best possible solution" because the Bible says God commanded it.
    Well until you can really prove you have the best solution, I will go with God's judgment. I am not blind to the nastiness of killing. I take it you must be a vegetarian or else you like killing animals? I am not a vegetarian though I do not like the thought of killing animals. I expect I would kill animals if my survival depended on it and of God instructed me to. He has not instructed me to kill or not kill animals. God knows animals are used for food as part of the food chain. As long as I do not go against God's will, I am free to do what I ever I want. I have more freedom in God than you think you have in the society you live in strapped by the laws it makes for itself.
    You are repeating the same error. I don't need to show that closing the wombs is the "best" solution. I only need to show that it is better than genocide. Your response only proves, yet again, that the Christian claim to morality is baseless. It gives no foundation at all because God himself commands his people to violate the morality he says they are supposed to obey. The Bible is simply incoherent on this point.

    As for vegetarianism - I eat meat and have no moral problem with the slaughter of animals for that purpose. But people are not mere animals that can be enslaved and slaughtered.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    How is it possible that you don't understand why these commands appear so evil to those who do not share your presuppositions? If your mind were open to truth, you would understand perfectly why rational and moral people find this aspect of the Bible to be abominable. You would understand that this is a real problem. You would not invent facile "explanations" that convince only those already committed to your dogmas.
    And you would not keep ducking the issue of the punishment fitting the crime. Take it one individual at a time. What punishment are you going to give to a child killer in any society by today's standards?
    You are now ducking and dodging by inventing a patently false condition. God no longer judges wickedness in this world by commanding genocide, so obviously he is not imposing any punishment that fits the crime. Why is he so inconsistent?

    This kind of "tit-for-tat" interaction is not leading to any kind of resolution. We need to find something we agree upon and build from there. Otherwise we'll just keep repeating ourselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    You "know" no such thing. You merely assert that nothing but genocide would solve the problem because that is the position required to protect your dogma.
    No more so than you are claiming to be correct. I defend that which I believe to be true. You have to put up an infallible argument, before I abandon my years of getting to understand God's word. Why would I jeopardize my salvation to agree with you, when you have not proved yourself worthy of believing?
    There is a world of difference between our assertions. Genocide involves gross immorality, whereas God closing the wombs does not violate any moral principles.

    The only reason you believe that genocide was the best solution is because that is what your dogma demands. How do you feel about Islam being spread by the sword? Were they morally justified to kill the unbelievers? Why is genocide OK in the Bible but not when anyone else doe it?

    I'm not asking you to believe me, as if it were an act of blind faith like believing the Bible. On the contrary, I am encouraging you to think for yourself and make righteous judgments. Any man that cannot assert that Infanticide, Genocide, and Slavery are morally wrong has lost his soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    And what "wild assertions" have I made? I am speaking nothing but universally agreed upon morality. That's why the genocides are such a problem for Christians who normally like to talk about how evil "killing babies" is, but now must declare the opposite because they are trapped by their dogma and so must declare evil to be good. It's like the debate I watched the other day (see this thread) - the Christian argued that the Bible is the only source of Absolute Morality. Then the atheist asked if Infanticide and Genocide were "absolutely wrong." The Christian, of course, said no. How's that for irony? The Atheist said yes, and the Christian said no!
    Your universally agreed morality does not include me, so how can it be universal? You have not demonstrated any morality; only humanism. It does not matter if one atheist disagrees with one Christian, a case is not built on the difference between two people who could both be wrong.
    You are correct that my statement about universal morality does not include you. But that's because I was using the phrase "universal morality" in the same way as "universal laws of mathematics." The fact that someone rejects universal laws of mathematics does not mean there are no such laws. It is my contention that you, and all Christians who justify the immorality attributed to God in the Bible, are violating universal morality.

    The example I gave was meant as an illustration of the problem. Christians make abstract convoluted metaphysical arguments to prove that absolute morality requires God, but then cannot reject Infanticide, Genocide, and Slavery as immoral. Have you ever seen such irony?

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I just noticed that you voted for Keith Darrell in the poll on that thread about their debate. Did you actually watch it, or did you just vote for the Christian out of principle? I can't imagine how you could believe he won if you actually watched it.
    Yes I did, and wasted over an hour of my time. I agree with Darrel that Avalos had the better presentation material, but a debate is not won on style alone but by valid argument.
    Why was it a "waste" if the Christian won? You comment makes no sense. You should have been delighted by the Christian victory.

    But there was no Christian victory. On the contrary, the video demonstrates the vanity of the Christian claim that the God of the Bible is the source of morality when he could not reject Infanticide, Genocide, and Slavery as immoral.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I'm glad you accept it as a possibility. I didn't say it would be the "best" solution. I merely said it would be better than giving them children who would then be slaughtered by the Israelites.
    I shall consider any other possibility you might like to put forward, but any solution you put forward is not likely to end up punishing the guilty for killing children. Stop pushing the blame on God and say what fitting punishment should be given to a child killer in the Canaanite society.
    God does not, as a general rule, give any "fitting punishment" in this life to people who violate his commands, so there is no reason for you to demand that my solution should do that.

    And besides, the children were innocent. They didn't deserve any punishment.

    And besides that, God frequently ignores his own laws when it suits him. Case in point: David was an adulterer and murderer, but God did not give him any "fitting punishment." On the contrary, God chose rather to kill the innocent child that came from David's union with Bathsheba. That's another immorality attributed to God. He was merciful to the guilty and cruel to the innocent.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I understand that you "accept God's justice to be fair and in accordance with His laws" - that's your dogma. You have no choice. Your mind is trapped.
    So you keep saying. How trapped are you? Your are like a gramophone needle that has got stuck in the groove and you cannot say anything else. Snap out of the groove.
    I will repeat myself until you respond to what I am saying. You are trapped by your dogma. You have no choice, no freedom, to declare the truth of what the Bible says if it contradicts your dogma. For you to throw this back in my face makes me feel like I'm in kindergarten. I am rubber, you are glue. Your words bounce off me and stick to you!

    You seem to forget that I am absolutely free to deal with reality because I have no dogma to uphold. You have no such freedom. If you were a Muslim, you would be making the same style arguments. This alone should make you pause and ask yourself what foundation you have for your beliefs.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    You say you "accept his justice"? What justice did those innocent babies receive? If God's actions were so good, why are modern people so horrified by them? And what are the implications of God's behavior if he is supposed to be our moral standard?
    You are concentrating on the babies and refuse to accept that God has the power to save them and let them grow up in the millennial age to come. There is no evidence to say this will definitely happen, but you cannot rule out that God has the power to do it. Why don't you argue from the point I made, instead of pushing forward your irrational thoughts.
    First, there has never been any agreement amongst Christians about the reality of a "millennial age to come." The concept is not well founded in Scripture. There are millions of Christians who reject that doctrine.

    Second, your point is entirely speculative. The Bible says nothing about God raising up Canaanite babies to live in the millennium.

    Third, you are the one who failed to respond to the questions I asked. If God's actions were so good, why are modern people so horrified by them? And what are the implications of God's behavior if he is supposed to be our moral standard? Why didn't you answer these questions?

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    You gave no reason to reject my solution of God closing the wombs. It was a common belief at that time that God was responsible for the opening and closing of wombs. And besides, God could have sent them a prophet so they would know. But it doesn't if they knew anyway, since the point was to get rid of them, not to explain anything. Your rejection of my solution has absolutely no foundation in fact. My explanation stands.
    I gave you at least one reason, but you fail to notice it and just keep making assertions which aggravate me and do not add any sense to this discussion.
    I should have said "you gave no valid reason to reject my solution" since I immediately refuted it in the following sentences. My explanation stands.

    I do not "just keep making assertions" - I make assertions based on logic and facts. The reason you are aggravated is because you cannot refute them.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    And no, I would not "still be arguing on this forum that God was immoral and I could have done it better." There would be no genocide to discuss if God had followed my solution.
    We will never really know how bad the world would have turned out by letting off murderers to go on doing their evil works.
    You are grossly misrepresenting our discussion. I never suggested "letting off murderers to go on doing their evil works." But now that you bring it up, I must note that is exactly what God has done. He doesn't go about commanding the genocide of bad people anymore. He has allowed murders and all sinners to freely commit their sins for thousands of years. Do you have a problem with that? If not, then why do you present it as a challenge to my solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Your assertion that "Closing up the women's wombs is taking away women's rights" is ludicrous in the extreme. As if MURDERING THEM didn't "take away their rights."
    Killing them meant they could not exercise rights, because they were not alive to exercise any rights. The punishment of the judicial system today is to lock people up and take away their right to freedom. What rights are you proposing to take way from a child killer? It is arguable that they should have no rights at all. You have to admit that your solution has taken away women's rights and leaves them alive unable to have those rights.
    What rights do I propose to take way from a child killer? Put them in jail! Or if you are talking about Canaanite killing their children and you think it such a HEINOUS CRIME to deserve slaughtering the offenders (who also happen to be living in the land you want to steal from them), then kill the offenders NOT THE INNOCENT CHILDREN. We know that the Israelites were happy to take 32,000 sexy virgins, so there is no reason they could not have taken all the children and raised them up in the good, wholesome Jewish household. This is certainly better than killing them all.

    It's really funny to see the kinds of arguments Christians invent to justify the murder of babies. One of our friends here on the forum (heb13-13) thinks they had to be killed because they were demon possessed! Of course, that would only be necessary if God were incapable of exorcising the demons. So we see a double absurdity in this explanation. First, there is no evidence of any kind that demon possession was the reason for the slaughter of the babies, and second, it denies that GOD IS GOD! And that is the sine qua non of all Christian apologetics. Ultimately the only thing they prove is that God is as impotent and ignorant as the people who are trying to defend him. When you say that the Almighty Omniscient God could think of no solution better than genocide, you are conceding a much more important argument, namely, that the God of the Bible is neither omnipotent or omniscient.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Your assertion that the "people were guilty of killing children (as part of their religion) and you do not want the punishment to fit the crime" makes no sense at all. How does commanding Israel to murder all Canaanite babies "fit the crime"???? You don't see the insanity of that? You say that the Canaanites were SO BAD because they killed some of their children so God sent in the Israelites to kill them all! Brilliant!
    The punishment was on the parents. There was no-one to look after the babies once the parents had been killed. They babies if not killed would have died of starvation. You are not answering the question; what punishment should be given to a child killer by our judicial system? I have yet to see the sanity in what you are saying.
    The Israelites could have cared for the babies and raised them in the True Moral ReligionTM. Just think - the population of the God-fearing people in Canaan would have grown by leaps and bounds. The babies would be raised to know the true God. But no, this solution can't be possible because the God of the Bible didn't think of it. So you will invent more reasons to reject it. And that will demonstrate yet again that you are using your intellect not to determine truth, but rather to protect your dogma.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    To go against God's will can have serious repercussions. It all depends on how serious the going against His will is. Perhaps God can say like you; "it depends".
    What repercussions? God routinely lets sinners do their thing with no repercussions in this life.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    You complaint that infertility does not do it "quickly" enough is no argument at all. God could have begun closing the wombs earlier if he wanted the results earlier.
    God could have done everything and that would have left the Israelites with nothing to do whereby in the process, their own obedience was tested, and then they failed as we know. You are making excuses more for the Canaanites than I am making for God or the Israelites. What is your direct punishment for child-killers in today's society in America? Apply the the same punishment to the Canaanites. Or do you want to give them a slap on the wrist and say; don't do it again. What is a child-killer's punishment?
    The set of options is not limited to "God doing everything" vs. "God commanding Israel to become genocidal maniacs." Your logic is fallacious.

    I have not made any "excuses" for the Canaanites. What are you talking about?

    Why do you ask about child-killers in America? We both know the answer to that.

    If you want to ask questions about modern law that relate to the commands of God in the Bible, try asking yourself what the UN thinks of Genocide and Slavery!
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    If God is punished for being child-killers so are millions of teenagers and adults for aborting their babies!
    What makes you think killing babies is bad? God commanded it so it must be OK.

    And that's what famous Christian apologist say - they say that God did no wrong to the babies because babies automatically go to heaven. Woohoo! That means that Abortionists are the greatest saints, because they got people into heaven who never would have made it if there were allowed to grow up to be unrepentant sinners.
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    Isn't it ironic that on one hand we say that killing innocent babies is bad and on another hand it's ok to abort. Try saving those innocent millions of babies who were pending abortions due to the "mistakes" done by the parents and you would incur wrath as aborting the babies were their decision so as not to be reminded of those "mistakes". So where is that morality that you claimed? Shouldn't they be punished?

    Same with killing of men, women and children in war. It is bad killing men, women and children during peacetime but it is ok to kill men, women and children of the enemy during wartime. Where is that morality that you claimed? Shouldn't they be punished?

    In the Bible, it says, "Do not commit adultery" but in modern days and in modern western law, it's ok to commit adultery. And even Jesus said that looking at somebody with lust in their hearts have already committed adultery and remarrying a divorced man or woman except for unfaithfulness is also considered adultery. Where is that morality that you claimed? Shouldn't they be punished?

    God Blessings to all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Isn't it ironic that on one hand we say that killing innocent babies is bad and on another hand it's ok to abort. Try saving those innocent millions of babies who were pending abortions due to the "mistakes" done by the parents and you would incur wrath as aborting the babies were their decision so as not to be reminded of those "mistakes". So where is that morality that you claimed? Shouldn't they be punished?
    Hey there CWH,

    The true irony is that Christians go about saying how bad abortion is yet defend baby killing if it is commanded by God.

    Abortion is entirely different because it is the choice of the mother. And we have no certain knowledge about the status of the unborn. It's pretty hard to think of a fertilized egg as fully human. Nobody goes about mourning all the miscarriages that result from one in four pregnancies.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Same with killing of men, women and children in war. It is bad killing men, women and children during peacetime but it is ok to kill men, women and children of the enemy during wartime. Where is that morality that you claimed? Shouldn't they be punished?
    It's not "OK to kill men" during war, it's a necessary evil to accomplish a greater good. It is absurd to suggest that they should be "punished" for trying to protect their country from aggression.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    In the Bible, it says, "Do not commit adultery" but in modern days and in modern western law, it's ok to commit adultery. And even Jesus said that looking at somebody with lust in their hearts have already committed adultery and remarrying a divorced man or woman except for unfaithfulness is also considered adultery. Where is that morality that you claimed? Shouldn't they be punished?
    The morality if adultery is not something that people should be punished for. It is a personal thing between them and their spouses. It's not for society to punish people for things like that.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
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