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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Rose



    You are misinterpreting what is being said. We can be one in Christ now, we are his brethren (inclusive of sisters) if we have associated ourselves with him. We are told that God is no respecter of persons; this is true and has been from the beginning and that is why I have said we are responsible as individual for the choices we make and for working out our own salvation. God has shown us the way and it is up to us to follow. It does not matter what nationality we are or what sex we are, we have the same opportunity of believing in what God has promised.
    Hi David,

    On one hand the Bible says God is no respecter of persons, but on the other hand men are respected to a much greater degree than women because they are given the power to rule over them. This is precisely why men have denied women basic human rights and used the Bible to support their claims.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    By your tone of language, you keep tarring every male with the same brush and you cannot do that. Not all men think that women should be in subjection to them. Error has crept in whereby a lot of men are using the scripture and wresting the scripture to their own destruction. Men of God do not abuse women and do not expect women to be in subjection to them. Unmarried men and unmarried women have their equal rights in the sight of God and married men and women are subject to one another; the husband or the wife is not greater than the other; they are complimentary and have equal rights. God has declared this principle from the very beginning. Certain changes took place in the relation between God and man and God and woman when God spoke to Adam and then to Eve after their fall. Their union in marriage did not change. Jesus refers us back to this time and so we should understand this in the way that Jesus understood it. This is part of having the mind of Christ in us and to understand the scriptures as Jesus understood them.
    No, I do not keep tarring all men with the same brush! Obviously Richard is totally for equality of women, and it seems like you are too, but that's beside the point cause it's not what I am speaking of. I am talking about the Bible and the way it promotes treating women as less then men when it comes to human rights. Women are equally human with men and every right that is afforded a man should be equally afforded a woman, which does not happen in the Bible.


    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Your say;"Everywhere one looks in Scripture men are given the right to make rules that govern women". The use of the word "everywhere" is another exaggerated claim. There might be instances where you are right, but then you are ignoring the scriptures which show that your way of thinking is wrong. Where there is apparent discord in scripture, I search for harmony. I do not look to create false ideas that are not there. Hence the threads I have created to present arguements against the false teaching that has arisen.
    All the rules and laws that govern women's rights in the Bible are given by men...there is nothing to exaggerate, it's just a fact! I know men like yourself say that God gave those rules to men, so they were only implementing them. But, then that proves my very point of the Bible being biased toward the male.



    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I have been slammed elsewwhere for saying that I accept there are errors in the Bible (as we have it today), I allow for errors of bias or genuine mistakes in translation. By comparing different translations and comparing scripture against scripture we can get to the Truth of God's word. That is why I say; if I find nine references which agree and convey the same meaning and I have one verse that seems to say something different, I have to study that one verse until I find its true meaning that brings it into harmony. In the process I might find errors of translation or bias by the translators. In order to explain difficult passages I might be able to find another passage of scripture that provides the key to understanding.

    There is so much false doctrine based on just a few verses that are easy to misinterpret. Deb has shown by her research into the Greek and Hebrew words used how a correct understanding can be derived. I know Richard has a great knowledge of Greek and Hebrew and yet he is not taking on board what Deb has been saying. I have to learn from those who know Greek and Hebrew languages and can do the language research. I know I am at a disadvantage not doing it myself. Even so, I have to compare what is said in the light of the sum of scripture. In the past I was confused over many passages of scripture, but have over time with reading comments of others that have done the research I have come to an understanding. Even if I have bad recall and cannot immediately bring to mind the appropriate scriptures (and this is what Jesus could do so well) I have been able to come to see the truth of God's word and that is my foundation. I might lose an argument because of poor articulation or not having the knowledge on immediate recall, but that does not mean I am wrong.

    I can see some of the reasons you have for the strong making out there is a strong male bias in the Bible, I have tried to explain that it is not as biassed as you make out, and Deb in her reasoning has explained verses to you that you are not taking on board. We have to be very careful we do not wrest scripture as many do "to their own destruction" and the value of this forum is that it does nold our feet to the flame and we are made to re-examine our beliefs.
    If the God of the Bible were truly the creator of the universe, do you not think he should be able to supply humans with a book that is free from errors? I should hope so.When humans write instruction manuals for their products, or formulas for chemical compounds they are able to accurately describe what is needed for others to be able to understand them, this is far from the case with the Bible. Parts of the Bible are so ambiguous no one can agree on what it says, other parts are plainly wrong, and still others have blatant contradictions.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    The principles of God do not change. Deb has explained the complete oneness that existed when Adam and Eve were created. The perfect harmony that existed was broken when Adam and Eve failed the test. The perfect state into which Adam and Eve were created was changed as a result of their punishment for disobedience. God is true to His word and He is just and He is faithful. God declared Adam and Eve would die if they ate of the fruit, and they did. Eve and her female descendants were cursed with painful child-birth and since the day that was spoken of, it has not changed. God introduces changes according to what man does in order to bring about His purpose, this is not to say that God's principles change. This is why I think we have to go back to see some of the basics facts recorded in Genesis. Right from the time God gave Abraham the promises, we see how God has been fulfilling His promise. Abraham believed he will inherit the land he was told to walk through the length and breadth of it. To this day, Abraham has not received his inheritance, but one day he will. God does not break His promises. We should never lose sight of the promises God has made. I build my faith on His promises and that is why I have to make scripture make sense and see the harmony that is there throughout.

    We have to make sense of why God allowed some things to happen and why God ordered certain things to be done. Everything has to be seen in proper context and how God is working out His purpose. Ultimately, God shall fill the whole earth with His Glory and He is saving a people out of all nations and ages to be in the kingom which will reveal His Glory.


    All the best,

    David
    One would hope that the principles of God do not change, but that is not what the Bible says. On one hand a man like Moses is called righteous and holy, yet he murdered thousands of people for the mere crime of idol worship...one the other hand Jesus tells us to love our enemies and turn the other cheek. So, which is it? Kill the evil idol worshipers or love them!

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

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  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
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    2,564
    Hi Rose
    Thanks for your response. I will give a replyto what you have written, though I think I must change tack after this as we are off topic again. "Why is Sexual Violence not condemned in the Bible?" is the topic. I am as guilty as most for getting lead down side trails.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi David,
    On one hand the Bible says God is no respecter of persons, but on the other hand men are respected to a much greater degree than women because they are given the power to rule over them. This is precisely why men have denied women basic human rights and used the Bible to support their claims.
    I have some sympathy with your view from the perspective you are looking at this. What Deb has shown elsewhere in this forum and I concur, the principle of God is that man does not rule over his wife. Man is not greater than the woman. The World, which is of mankind's making, and which is at enmity with God, the Bible tells us about. The Bible is full of accounts where God is dealing with the world that has come about as a result of mankind and God is having to fullfil His purpose and deal with it. God is working in the kingdoms of men and having to deal with what is going on; He is revealing to us that He is in control despite many wondering what the world is coming too. When looked at from the World's perspective, you are right. The Bible is not biassed for reporting the World as it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    No, I do not keep tarring all men with the same brush! Obviously Richard is totally for equality of women, and it seems like you are too, but that's beside the point cause it's not what I am speaking of. I am talking about the Bible and the way it promotes treating women as less then men when it comes to human rights. Women are equally human with men and every right that is afforded a man should be equally afforded a woman, which does not happen in the Bible.
    Once again, I do not think God treats women less than men. There is a greater role for men to play as men have been given the greater responsibility. When it comes to nations and national beliefs of which idolatry was rampant in the period of history we are considering, I can understand how offensive it is to God who is the Creator. God has given His instruction to mankind not to worship idols. God has given men and women free choice and when they refuse to accept God and will not turn to Him and they practice their evil ways, they are considered reprobates, and they are a lost cause. You are not correct to take the moral high ground when God acts against these reprobates. You should be out there getting people to repent, and change from their evil ways. You forget a similar judgement is coming on the World and when it does, what will you say then?


    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    All the rules and laws that govern women's rights in the Bible are given by men...there is nothing to exaggerate, it's just a fact! I know men like yourself say that God gave those rules to men, so they were only implementing them. But, then that proves my very point of the Bible being biased toward the male.
    The predominant role of men, is not inately bad. I have agreed that the Bible is predominately male orientated which is different from God being biassed towards men in the sense of being partial towards men. Just because the Bible is male orientated does not mean that it was written by men who were biassed towards men. It was mainly men (but not exclusively) through whom God operated and they wrote as they were inspired to write.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    If the God of the Bible were truly the creator of the universe, do you not think he should be able to supply humans with a book that is free from errors? I should hope so.When humans write instruction manuals for their products, or formulas for chemical compounds they are able to accurately describe what is needed for others to be able to understand them, this is far from the case with the Bible. Parts of the Bible are so ambiguous no one can agree on what it says, other parts are plainly wrong, and still others have blatant contradictions.
    Originally, God was very clear in what was written. God gave instructions to write things "plainly" so the people would understand and had no excuse. So in answer to your question, God has. Errors have been introduced into the Bible as we have it today. With study and research, these errors can be spotted. There is no excuse for men and women putting their own bias on the word of God which is very apparent in some translations of the Bible. Even when the Bible says something is white, you would say it is black. Just how simple do you want it to be. Even the simplest of things to understand is being perverted, so blame man and yourself before you blame God.

    Accuse perverters before you accuse God. There is enough truth in the Bible for us to recognize Even simple truths that are plain as day in the Bible are perverted by men and women, so again you should not accuse God, go and accuse your peers. The fact that we have a Bible at all is evidence of of a miracle. Despite all attempts to destroy the Bible and remove it from the face of the planet, God's word has remained. Not too dissimilar to the survival of the Jews (Gods chosen nation through Abraham). You had better accuse the translaters and those who have perverted the word of God before you accuse God. If you do not understand parts of the Bible and you claim they are wrong, then that is your problem, not the Bible's problem. Others besides me are not having the difficulties you are having, we are discerning the scriptures to see the harmony and consistency of God's word. I do not claim to know it all and have an answer for everything in the Bible, but what I do not know I can keep working at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    One would hope that the principles of God do not change, but that is not what the Bible says. On one hand a man like Moses is called righteous and holy, yet he murdered thousands of people for the mere crime of idol worship...one the other hand Jesus tells us to love our enemies and turn the other cheek. So, which is it? Kill the evil idol worshipers or love them!
    You continue to accuse Moses even after I have pointed out that Moses and Israel when operating under instruction should not be held quilty. Accuse God, not Moses. I know Moses was not perfect, and Moses did kill and Egyptian when saving a fellow Israelite. Do not accuse Moses of being a mass murderer for obeying instruction. You are in no position to know what Moses' motives were. God knows all our motives. I should challenge people's motives before I would accuse God. Argue your case against God and not Moses. It is frustrating when you keep saying; "that is what the Bible says" when I know that others have shown you that your interpretation is wrong, but you keep on plugging the same point using the same verses. You are free to keep saying what you do, and I and others will have to keep saying you are wrong. I fear we shall keep running into the same problem as stated in a recent post from Ricard;
    Originally Posted by RAM
    No amount of proof would convince a person who has chosen not to believe something.
    The law was very specific and is still relevant in this respect for it has not changed; "Thou shalt not kill". All the 10 commandments, Jesus summed up in just two commandments. He did not negate the 10 commandments.

    It is God's prerogative to kill where He considers it justified.
    Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: This is from the Song of Moses and paints a sorry picture of the sorry state of affairs that are of man's making; not God's. I suggest the chapter is read and understood.

    You want to take the moral highground and think your morals are better than God when all you are doing is showing flawed humanist reasoning.

    Eventually, God will show us how the World should be governed "by that man whom he hath ordained". God has shown us in the Bible the consequences of man's rule and the violence of man towards man. Why object to God killing reprobates when men are killing each other all day long and the innocent are getting slaughtered at the hands of men? God will eventually put a stop to this when Jesus returns to take over the World and shall rule the World in righteousness. The Bible is telling you and me what is was like in times past and how it is now and what it will be like in the time to come. Don't blame God for what is of man's making and which God has the right to correct in the way He chooses.

    All the best to you Rose

    David
    Last edited by David M; 03-11-2012 at 12:29 AM.

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