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  1. #31
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Yakima, Wa
    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Psalm 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
    Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity:
    there is none that doeth good.
    2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men,
    to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
    3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy;
    there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
    4 Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge?
    who eat up my people as they eat bread:
    they have not called upon God.
    Hey there Charisma,

    Your application of that passage to "unbelievers" reveals a profound failure to understand the Gospel. Paul applied that passage to ALL HUMANS:
    Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 ¶ But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
    Do you see what you have done? You have taken a passage that Paul used to show that ALL HAVE SINNED and you applied it only to people you think are your enemies. You have set yourself up as the righteous judge over people who (for very good reasons) don't think that your religion is true. That is fundamentally unrighteous. Paul was speaking specifically to YOU when he said, in effect, "Are you better than Richard and Rose?"

    This is what religion does to people. It makes them think that they are RIGHTEOUS while anyone who disagrees with them is of the devil.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Richard,

    This is a kind of PS to my earlier post. I've been thinking about your distaste for the way I 'hear' your stance against scripture, and it set me thinking about the kind of differences I would like to hear if you want to be perceived as one who is still genuinely seeking God, rather than constructing a god in the image of the education system under which you've grown up. (I know you are not the only person to have done this, so you're not alone.)

    There are two kinds of people (broadly speaking). Those who know and pursue the greater knowledge of God, who say:

    and those who don't. Thankfully there is usually time to draw back from this situation, as Paul states in Romans 2:4
    I know this was to Richard but I wanted to ask you a few questions.

    You say you "know". How do you know you haven't been deceived? I want to show you what some of the earliest church fathers had to say. These are the men by which you get your traditions you believe in today.

    "I will only mention the Apostle Paul. ... He, then, if anyone, ought to be calumniated; we should speak thus to him: ‘The proofs which you have used against the Jews and against other heretics bear a different meaning in their own contexts to that which they bear in your Epistles.

    We see passages taken captive by your pen and pressed into service to win you a victory, which in volumes from which they are taken have no controversial bearing at all ... the line so often adopted by strong men in controversy – of justifying the means by the result."

    – St. Jerome, Epistle to Pammachus (xlviii, 13; N&PNF. vi, 72-73)

    How about Eusebius in the 32nd Chapter of his 12th Book of Evangelical Preparation:

    "How it may be Lawful and Fitting to use Falsehood as a Medicine, and for the Benefit of those who Want to be Deceived."

    Here is more from Eusebius:

    "We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity."

    – Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Vol. 8, chapter 2.

    Clement of Alexandria- one of the earliest church fathers: :

    "Not all true things are the truth, nor should that truth which merely seems true according to human opinions be preferred to the true truth, that according to the faith."

    – Clement (quoted by M. Smith, Clement of Alexandria, p446)

    John Chrysostom: "Do you see the advantage of deceit? ...

    For great is the value of deceit, provided it be not introduced with a mischievous intention. In fact action of this kind ought not to be called deceit, but rather a kind of good management, cleverness and skill, capable of finding out ways where resources fail, and making up for the defects of the mind ...

    And often it is necessary to deceive, and to do the greatest benefits by means of this device, whereas he who has gone by a straight course has done great mischief to the person whom he has not deceived."

    – Chrysostom, Treatise On The Priesthood, Book 1.

    Faustus- Manichean bishop: "Many things have been inserted by our ancestors in the speeches of our Lord which, though put forth under his name, agree not with his faith; especially since – as already it has been often proved – these things were written not by Christ, nor [by] his apostles, but a long while after their assumption, by I know not what sort of half Jews, not even agreeing with themselves, who made up their tale out of reports and opinions merely, and yet, fathering the whole upon the names of the apostles of the Lord or on those who were supposed to follow the apostles, they maliciously pretended that they had written their lies and conceits according to them."

    Ignatius Loyola -founder of the Society of Jesus[Jesuits]: "We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."

    Saint Jerome: 'To confute the opposer ... one argues as one pleases, saying one thing while one means another ... Origen, Eusebius [et al] write at great length ... Sometimes it is true, they are compelled to say not what they think but what is useful.'

    – St Jerome, c. 380.

    – Celsus (On The True Doctrine, c178 AD): 'Clearly the Christians have used ... myths ... in fabricating the story of Jesus' birth ... It is clear to me that the writings of the Christians are a lie and that your fables are not well-enough constructed to conceal this monstrous fiction.'

    His work was so damaging to Christians that they destroyed every copy he ever wrote.

    So how do you "know" anything, when it is clear the church lied to suit their purpose? These men and men like them are where your traditions come from. They are not credible and neither is the Bible.

    Sorry you are not dealing with any "word of God". You are dealing with fiction fabricated by the church for ultimate control over the people.
    Last edited by L67; 03-12-2013 at 05:55 PM.
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace - Jimi Hendrix

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