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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hello Rose,

    Thank you for your reply to my post to you.

    I know the Author. I recognise His voice, and I recognise the consistency of His revelation of His own value system, which is the only one which counts.

    No reason at all. But you should trust in the God who inspired its writing, because that would be beneficial to your longterm spiritual health.
    Hi Charisma,

    I totally understand your conception of "knowing" god, I too knew god long before I became a Christian. When I found Jesus and became a Christian I automatically mapped the god I knew since childhood onto the god presented in the Bible. Now the question I ask you is why should I trust that the god you know, or the god I knew as a child is the god who inspired the Bible? I'm not debating the existence of a creator deity, rather my main point is that the god presented in the Bible is a male bias masculine deity created in the minds of men and patterned after their male egos.


    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Are you suggesting that God should change, because you don't like Him, and you don't like the men who are made in His image? Might that be because the first man made a fatal mistake which we all recognise every time someone we know, dies, and when we see the frailty of 'good and evil' in the world, we know that we are not as like God as originally He designed?

    Perhaps man would never have discovered the 'vengeance, jealousy, retribution and judgment' of God, if he had obeyed Him from the start?
    If as you say man is created in the image of god, does it not stand to reason that mans image should reflect the qualities of god such as vengeance, jealousy, and retribution also. As far as god changing, the Bible portrays him as a continually changing deity just like the whims of men change with the seasons.


    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Um... Why should anyone care what you think about Paul? You are displaying the very reason God sent His Son to die for us... We are irrevocably contrary to His thinking and desiring, unless we undergo a complete change of heart and mind, and get some fresh insight into His perspective.


    You have a rather important misunderstanding of Paul's teaching, there. At no time did either Paul or God hold Eve responsible for Adam falling into sin.

    God's desire is that men should, now, take their place leading their families, starting with their taking responsibility for their woman.
    Paul said that because the woman was deceived and thus in the transgression, she was to learn in silence and subjection to men not being allowed to teach a man.
    1Tim.2:11-13 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

    Why do you suppose that god decided to only speak to men about all the rules, and laws that women were to obey instead of directly speaking to women? Sounds pretty convenient for men to me...all the natural inclinations that men have to dominate and control women are granted them by their god.


    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    You might think you know the God of the Bible well enough to make such a pronouncement, but you aren't describing Him very well at all. Your selective amnesia for all the good things He does, betrays your bias against Him. You've never really looked at the Bible with an open mind.
    Quite the contrary...because my mind is totally open to all things the Bible says I can see the good and the bad quite clearly.

    Let me give you an example of what I mean: suppose a man cares for and loves his family, then one day he takes a gun a kills them all...would you say he was a good person? Of course not! That is sort of the way I view the god of the Bible, no matter how much good god supposedly does the immorality that is attributed to him classifies him as an evil, immoral god.


    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Again you misunderstand Him. Worshipping God is a source of health and well-being to humans. Humans who do not worship Him are getting far less out of life than is available to those who worship Him in Spirit and truth as He requires. And being God He IS allowed to require whatever pleases Him.
    Not for the humans of the Bible who were killed because they didn't worship Yahweh. And what about all the multitudes of people who were tortured or lost their lives because Bible believers inflicted harm upon them because they didn't believe in or worship Yahweh properly? Christianity has been responsible for a tremendous loss of well-being amongst humans, especially women.


    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose
    I fail to see the loving kindness in the actions of a god who would decree that women be treated in such an immoral and abusive manner. There can be no love in a god who orders the slaughter of innocent women and children while commanding that NO MERCY be shown to them.
    I don't think you're giving the humans who lived at that time, quite enough credit for the similarity to yours of the choices they made to not co-operate with God in their day. I mean, you're making a good attempt to emulate them. What reason is there that God should spare you in your rebellion?
    Are you excusing god or the authors of the Bible for their horrendous, abusive, and immoral actions recorded in Scripture? I'm sure not!


    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    I could be wrong, but I think what you mean is that you got tired of pretending you believed scripture was the word of God, and you stopped pretending. That was an honest and brave decision - to stop deceiving yourselves that you were in a relationship with God that you were not. However, you won't find truth in the world. Jesus Christ is still the Truth.


    Let me rearrange that statement, too, please. What you mean is that the moment you realised it was true that you don't believe the Bible, you looked for a human way to explain what you thought you then understood. You haven't actually set out to understand God at all, yet. But you could always give it a go while you have time. I'm sure you've enjoyed dissing His name and dissing His ways, never for a moment thinking you're only proving how right He always is.
    I'm sorry, but you are wrong! I absolutely believed the Bible was authored under the inspiration of god and it never was my intention to leave the faith...in fact it was totally unexpected.

    Truth is found whenever one is open to receive unbiased evidence without a motive. My search began with a sincere desire to find answers, never in my wildest dreams would I have ever thought my faith was hanging in the balance ready to depart.



    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    You're not getting it, are you? He's right! What other solution is there? Just give up on people altogether and let them do what they want? Isn't there enough misery and violence in the world because of what humans do independently of God? If God can't stop them, how are you going to?
    Are you saying god is unable to stop human misery and violence, when according to the Bible he is the cause of much of it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Well, I'm glad you're entertained. I think it's interesting that you are willing to spend your time eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, when you can see what that has done to the human race down the centuries, rather than trying to find out where the tree of life (truth) is now located, and beating a path to its.... um.... fruit. I mean, clearly the tree of life still exists, because the tree of 'knowledge' still exists. Maybe it will dawn on you one day that unless you find it, you are going to be yet another needless casualty at the hand of God's perfect justice.


    Keep searching, sister. The truth is out there!
    I certainly will keep searching So far my search has been bountifully rewarding...everywhere I look with an open mind I find truth in abundance. My soul feels free and full of life...I can love all humans equally no matter what god they do or do not believe in.

    Thank you for taking time to chat,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funky1096 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose
    The answer of your master...found in the pages of Scripture, whose authorship is that of primitive men. It says the thief comes to kill and destroy, yet your master allows this thief to run rampant amongst men. Your master says that he has come to give mankind abundant life, yet at every turn he allows life to be taken away in the most horrendous fashion, when only a word from his mouth would bring forth legions of angels. How can I trust his words?

    Whew I almost burst out laughing at that statement.

    (Hint hint) spiritual life vs spiritual death or physical life vs physical death. Hmm Jesus gave us the ability to repent through him for our SPIRIT bodies no not physical ones but our SPIRIT ones. So the life he abundantly gives is SPIRITUAL redemption from the second death.
    I guess it is pretty hilarious that people actually believe the god of the Bible is trustworthy...
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  3. #23
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    "If as you say man is created in the image of god, does it not stand to reason that mans image should reflect the qualities of god such as vengeance, jealousy, and retribution also. As far as god changing, the Bible portrays him as a continually changing deity just like the whims of men change with the seasons."

    Blaw blaw blaw go read post 5 here http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...617-Complexity


    And ofcourse u forget to mention the feminine side of God grace, mercy, chance for forgiveness, love, etc.


    "Paul said that because the woman was deceived and thus in the transgression, she was to learn in silence and subjection to men not being allowed to teach a man.
    1Tim.2:11-13 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

    You get that one spot on.

    Eve sinned Adam followed.
    1 Timothy 2:11-15 KJV
    "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. "

    So Paul essentially established church order. Spiritual application here(hint hint).


    "Are you excusing god or the authors of the Bible for their horrendous, abusive, and immoral actions recorded in Scripture? I'm sure not!"

    Well since your "morals" are not even of faith then XD to you.

    God did not say "do not kill, enslave, steal from, or rape, dogs(unsaved heathen who can't be saved wont be saved and will not live forever) actually he said quite the opposite.

    He LET and ORDERED the Israelites do so numerous occasions.

    But in today's government there is laws against all of that so we obey them like if God himself said so since the higher powers are ordained.

    Ofcourse you refuse to accept all of http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...flesh-AND-soul

    Or for that matter challenge it so stfu.
    "There is nothing but shame to be gained by willfully holding to false opinions!"
    How true.

  4. #24
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    Hey there Charisma,

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    I know the Author. I recognise His voice, and I recognise the consistency of His revelation of His own value system, which is the only one which counts.
    How do you discern between your own thoughts and imaginations and "his voice"? Other people think they hear "his voice" but they contradict things you say. So how do you protect yourself from falling into a similar delusion as those you can tell are deluded?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    No reason at all. But you should trust in the God who inspired its writing, because that would be beneficial to your longterm spiritual health.
    And that's what the Muslims say. And the Hindus. And the Jews. So it doesn't seem to be a good answer to the question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    You have a rather important misunderstanding of Paul's teaching, there. At no time did either Paul or God hold Eve responsible for Adam falling into sin.
    That's not correct. Paul explicitly blames Eve:

    1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

    Note thet he uses the "fact" that Eve was deceived as a reason women should not teach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    What reason is there that God should spare you in your rebellion?
    Why is God so hung up on demanding OBEDIENCE???? If any human acted that way we'd think they were psychologically disturbed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    I could be wrong, but I think what you mean is that you got tired of pretending you believed scripture was the word of God, and you stopped pretending. That was an honest and brave decision - to stop deceiving yourselves that you were in a relationship with God that you were not. However, you won't find truth in the world. Jesus Christ is still the Truth.
    That's a HUGE error. Rose and I were every bit as much "Christian" as anyone who has ever professed the faith. Here is how I spoke of my faith during the decade I was working on the Bible Wheel. I identified myself as a “Bible-believing Christian” in no uncertain terms. For example, here is how I described myself in my old FAQ (which remains on the old version of my site for historical purposes):
    Are you a Christian? Protestant? Catholic?
    Praise God, I am a man saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Ephesian 2:8). I am a non-denominational blood-bought Bible-believing Trinitarian Christian. I believe that the true “faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 3) is well stated in the early creeds of the church that Christ founded.
    Likewise, here is my testimony about the purpose of my website on the old homepage:
    To this end I labour, to glorify the Triune God; to glorify the Father Almighty, Creator of all, to glorify His Son Jesus Christ my Saviour and Hope, and to glorify the Giver of all divine gifts, my Comforter, Guide, Teacher and Friend, God the Holy Spirit. To You be the glory, thrice holy blessed God of Eternity! To You be the glory, now and forevermore. Amen. Amen. Amen.
    And here are the thanks I gave to Christ on my old About page:
    I remain eternally grateful to my Lord Jesus Christ, the King of the Universe, for shedding His Light upon me and guiding my path – usually without my knowledge – and giving me both the burning desire and the ability to proclaim the neverending wonders of His Holy Word. Oh! The wonders of His Grace! Had He left me to myself, doubtless I’d be dead or wandering aimless and lost through this dark world. Thank you, my Lord!
    To suggest that either Rose or I were not real Christians or that we did not "really" believe the Bible is demonstrably false.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  5. #25
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    Edited

    Wait a second
    "That's a HUGE error. Rose and I were every bit as much "Christian" as anyone who has ever professed the faith. Here is how I spoke of my faith during the decade I was working on the Bible Wheel"

    Me and whomever charisma is have a genuine concern for your repentance.


    Galations 2:4 KJV
    "And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage"



    "How do you discern between your own thoughts and imaginations and "his voice"? Other people think they hear "his voice" but they contradict things you say. So how do you protect yourself from falling into a similar delusion as those you can tell are deluded?"

    Ah great question.

    1 John 4:1-5 KJV
    "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them"


    Why do you think I kept asking for confessions?
    Last edited by Funky1096; 03-05-2013 at 09:16 PM.
    "There is nothing but shame to be gained by willfully holding to false opinions!"
    How true.

  6. #26
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    Hi Richard,

    I'm really glad you feel free to speak you mind. I will respond in kind.
    Great!

    Just look at the endless debates between Christians about what it really means.
    Depending on your definition of 'Christian', it does look like this. Indeed, many of those arguing have no idea what it means!

    Equally devout believers come do diametrically opposed conclusions. Why is that?
    I think 'diametrically opposed' is a bit of an exaggeration. If you think about such extreme differences in the light of what the apostles say the gospel is about, then there will be a point of separation away from the written word which helps to determine whether the emphasis of the argument is on God's thoughts or man's. We already know God and man are not on the same wavelength, so this distinction helps define what is being 'devout'ly 'believe'd in.

    Because the Bible is a very ambiguous book
    Yes. God has His message - principles and themes - embedded in His word at many levels, and directed at men of differing levels and of differing opinions about themselves. The reader may become aware of both agreements and conflicts in both the natural layers and the spiritual layers. By this means, God can reach all men with something which is good for them, and they can grow to greater stature and insight as they partake of His truth.

    filled with contradictions
    Now you're exaggerating! There are apparent contradictions, but there is also a great flow and much repetition. How thick do men have to be to miss the whole message completely? Actually, there are two sides to this point. There are men who see with their intellect what the gospel is, and reject it, and men who don't see it clearly at all, but they know they're on to something; and God leads them deeper and deeper and deeper, until finally they can look the intellectual in the eye and say, 'I see Him; He has revealed Himself to me.' That outcome is open to all men and women and children.

    so every interpreter must rely on their own judgment to determine what it "really" means.
    No doubt the natural man approaches scripture with this idea in his imagination, but it's clear from the places where the law had been re-discovered and re-instituted, and from psalms, that there are men who understand it simply as God opens their ears and eyes upon hearing it. These men do use their own 'judgment' to respond to God, and they understand that God's word has immense power.

    Hebrews 1:3 Who [Christ] being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    So the Bible is not any kind of "foundation" at all.
    Stop right here. There is nothing wrong with the Bible. The problems lie in the hearts and minds of the people reading it. Either they are willing to accept what God says about them, or they resist His word. These reactions are equally valid, but naturally lead to opposite outcomes in the reader.

    Acts 7:48 - 54 is a good example of an observable outcome of resisting, while Acts 9:6, of accepting.

    You are relying on your own interpretation
    No, I'm not. I'm relying on the cohesiveness of what God reveals to me (with the help of His Spirit), in me and through me, of His word in action.

    which is based on many baseless assumptions,
    This is your opinion. God's opinion of people who seek Him to know Him, is that 'all these things' (necessities of life) 'will be added' as required.

    the most obvious being your idea that the "Bible" is the "word of God."
    Well, I'm hardly the first person on earth to make that claim for scripture, am I? I make it, though, because I also find their testimony to be true. I'm not parroting an opinion! I have tested my opinions against God's numerous times, and find God's word stronger than mine every time!

    The Bible doesn't even define itself.
    Really, does that matter? Have you ever heard a cup stating 'I'm a cup'? I hope not! (But if you're in doubt about its effectiveness, you can put a drink in there and see if it delivers it to your mouth (with a little help from one of your arms and hands), and you can decide whether someone else had a good idea or not. If the drink spills everywhere and soaks what you're wearing, you might think it was a failure, because it didn't preserve the drink.)

    Is the Catholic Bible with the apocrypha the "word of God"? If not, why not? Others think it is. By what authority do you contradict them?
    This question is a digression. Let's just stick to... that I believe the Bible is the word of God. Any authority I have, comes from my relationship with Him.

    Your idea that the Bible is "a secure foundation for understanding" is demonstrably false.
    You might conclude that the machinery people call 'a car' is useless, if you simply look at it and don't attempt to operate it correctly, but you could not be accused of thinking straight, if you had not filled it with fuel, fired it up and driven it according to the governing principles of road safety and driving. The way you talk about the Bible these days is a great disappointment, because there you have a powerful vehicle for transporting you into the presence of God and revealing to you His mind and desires, which you refuse to engage in a manner which will make it work as designed.

    That said, I am heartily glad that you continue to make the Bible Wheel book and website available, as they have the potential to bless many seekers.

    Your suggestion that Rose and I are "lining up with the one who first questioned God's word" is a very nasty way of implying that we are Satanic merely because we have spoken truth.
    Richard, there is a not-so-subtle difference between referring to your own opinion as 'truth', and accepting God's word as 'truth'.

    What happened in the garden when Adam accepted Satan's offer to 'become as gods' in terms of 'knowing good and evil', is, at this present time, the mindset which you are operating under, bound as you are for a final and permanent death - just as long as you keep agreeing with Satan's premise that 'knowing good and evil' and dying permanently is a desirable outcome for a being who has the potential to experience the effect of the blessing God commanded: LIFE FOR EVERMORE. Now you know that Jesus Christ spoke against Satan's desired outcome, and not only did He prophesy that they would not 'come into condemnation', nor 'see death' but they would 'pass' 'into life' through believing on Him whom the Father had sent.

    Satan is sick of this message. If there is one piece of truth which he hates, it is that Jesus Christ took the keys of death and hell from him for ever and for good, with the sole intention of restoring to fellowship with God those people who wholeheartedly espouse His values again.

    In biblical terms, this is like blaspheming the "spirit of truth" - the Holy Spirit.
    Hardly! The Holy Spirit is brooding over your life, no doubt, but He is not the Author of your anti-God statements. You have to take responsibility for them.

    If we have written anything that is not true, your duty is to expose our errors, not insinuate that we are like the Devil.
    It's not clear why you think I should take responsibility for your errors, although I read what you say. If you don't want to be associated with the Devil, then it's up to you to distance yourself from his thinking, his rhetoric, his attitude to God and His word, and to stop sounding like one of his children.

    John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.


    If you're really searching for 'the Truth', Richard, finding it has the potential to remove from you everything of worldly esteem. The two are mutually exclusive and there is great peace in letting all natural striving come to an end in Christ's death for you. Then you can really begin to LIVE!


    This is all I have time to reply right now. Hopefully, I'll address more of your points in the coming days.
    Last edited by Charisma; 03-12-2013 at 12:57 PM.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  7. #27
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    That was an outstanding post, Charisma. The analogy of the "cup" and "car" works very well.

    It's not clear why you think I should take responsibility for your errors, although I read what you say. If you don't want to be associated with the Devil, then it's up to you to distance yourself from his thinking, his rhetoric, his attitude to God and His word, and to stop sounding like one of his children.
    Yes, when man fell, he became a blameshifter (after the character of his new father).

    Wisdom in your post for all us.

    I am really edified by the way you think, you "irrational, lunatic", you!!

    Rick

    There is no other book like the Bible in the world where you have to know the Author to understand the book. If Christianity were the religion of the Book then it would be no different than any other religion in the world. But, Christianity is Christ! It is the dynamic, personal Spirit of God functioning in man.

    Answering the Skeptics Bible

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Just look at the endless debates between Christians about what it really means.
    Depending on your definition of 'Christian', it does look like this. Indeed, many of those arguing have no idea what it means!
    That's exactly correct. And since the members all all the wildly contradictory Christianities (Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, JW, SDA, Calvinist, Arminian, The Way Int'l, Christadelphian, etc., etc., etc. ...) define themselves as the "true Christians" and there is no objective authority to define which definition is correct, the term is rendered meaningless.

    Many of the more serous Christians don't call themselves by that name because there is so much confusion about what it means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Equally devout believers come do diametrically opposed conclusions. Why is that?
    I think 'diametrically opposed' is a bit of an exaggeration. If you think about such extreme differences in the light of what the apostles say the gospel is about, then there will be a point of separation away from the written word which helps to determine whether the emphasis of the argument is on God's thoughts or man's. We already know God and man are not on the same wavelength, so this distinction helps define what is being 'devout'ly 'believe'd in.
    When one group (Protestants) say that the other group (Catholics) is ANTICHRIST, I think "diametrically opposed" perfectly accurate.

    Your distinction between "God thoughts or man's" is literally meaningless because you have no objective way to discern between the two. The only thing you have to go on is your own fallible human opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    filled with contradictions
    Now you're exaggerating! There are apparent contradictions, but there is also a great flow and much repetition. How thick do men have to be to miss the whole message completely? Actually, there are two sides to this point. There are men who see with their intellect what the gospel is, and reject it, and men who don't see it clearly at all, but they know they're on to something; and God leads them deeper and deeper and deeper, until finally they can look the intellectual in the eye and say, 'I see Him; He has revealed Himself to me.' That outcome is open to all men and women and children.
    I agree that there is a "great flow" to the Bible. This is one of the things that has always impressed me, especially since the flow manifests clearly on the Bible Wheel. But that flow does not contradict the fact that the book is also filled with contradictions. It's no "exaggeration." The Bible is literally filled with contradictions from beginning to end. Yes, there are many "apparent" contradictions that can be explained but it's impossible to solve them all. For example, the four accounts of the passion week are absolutely impossible to reconcile. Likewise, the birth narratives in Matthew and Luke are totally contradictory and irreconcilable. Likewise, the two creation stories are irreconcilable. Etc.

    It is odd that Christians feel that they must deny the Bible has contradictions. Why not just admit what the book really says. I mean, if you REALLY believe it is from God, then why do you not accept it as given by God? Why did God put so many "apparent" contradictions in his book if he didn't want it to look like it has contradictions? I think the HIGHEST view of Scripture is to accept it as given, warts, contradictions, and all. If you can't do that, then you contradict your claim to believe it is God's word.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    so every interpreter must rely on their own judgment to determine what it "really" means.
    No doubt the natural man approaches scripture with this idea in his imagination, but it's clear from the places where the law had been re-discovered and re-instituted, and from psalms, that there are men who understand it simply as God opens their ears and eyes upon hearing it. These men do use their own 'judgment' to respond to God, and they understand that God's word has immense power.

    Hebrews 1:3 Who [Christ] being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
    I understand your point, but how does that help? My point remains: Every interpreter must rely on their own judgment. That's what you are doing when you approve of an interpretation as "from God." You are using your own fallible human judgment to declare what the Bible means. It doesn't help if you have a subjective sense that your interpretation is really "God's interpretation" because that's what every cult leader has done for the last 2000 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    So the Bible is not any kind of "foundation" at all.
    Stop right here. There is nothing wrong with the Bible. The problems lie in the hearts and minds of the people reading it. Either they are willing to accept what God says about them, or they resist His word. These reactions are equally valid, but naturally lead to opposite outcomes in the reader.

    Acts 7:48 - 54 is a good example of an observable outcome of resisting, while Acts 9:6, of accepting.
    Are you saying that anyone who disagrees with your personal interpretation of the Bible is "resisting" God's Word? If not, then maybe you are the one "resisting" when you reject the Mormons or the JWs? How do you know which is the correct interpretation?

    Why do you say there is nothing wrong with the Bible? How do you know that? How do you even know what books are supposed to be in the Bible? And what about all the textual variations? What about the words that have been added? What about the whole sections that have been added like the various long endings of Mark?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    You are relying on your own interpretation
    No, I'm not. I'm relying on the cohesiveness of what God reveals to me (with the help of His Spirit), in me and through me, of His word in action.
    And who is judge of that "cohesiveness" if not you?

    The idea that the correct interpretation can be determined by "cohesiveness" (or more commonly "harmony") leads to deep delusion. I'm sorry to use that word, but it is very important in this case. Harold Camping said that he taught nothing but "The Bible alone, and in its entirety." He said that everyone could his interpretations were correct because they were the only way to HARMONIZE the text. Of course, his "harmonies" were the most ludicrous exercises in word twisting I've ever seen. He often would twist the text to say the exact opposite of what it really said. But that didn't stop millions of people from believing his ravings were God's Own Truth. They gave him $80 MILLION DOLLARS in just five years from 2005-2009. He said that the Bible declared that the Rapture would happen on May 21, 2011, and the only way he could be wrong was if the Bible was wrong. That's where "harmonizing" the Bible gets you.

    The real problem with "harmonizing" the Bible is that it is very subjective. One man's harmony is another man's bedlam. What objective standards do we use to discern between true vs. false harmonies?

    My statement stands: You are relying on your own interpretation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    the most obvious being your idea that the "Bible" is the "word of God."
    Well, I'm hardly the first person on earth to make that claim for scripture, am I? I make it, though, because I also find their testimony to be true. I'm not parroting an opinion! I have tested my opinions against God's numerous times, and find God's word stronger than mine every time!
    I doubt you've ever really "tested your opinions against God's." I get the impression that you begin with the assumption that the Bible is God's Word and then filter everything through a very strong confirmation bias that eliminates anything that contradicts your assumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    The Bible doesn't even define itself.
    Really, does that matter? Have you ever heard a cup stating 'I'm a cup'? I hope not! (But if you're in doubt about its effectiveness, you can put a drink in there and see if it delivers it to your mouth (with a little help from one of your arms and hands), and you can decide whether someone else had a good idea or not. If the drink spills everywhere and soaks what you're wearing, you might think it was a failure, because it didn't preserve the drink.)
    So do you accept the Catholic Bible with the apocrypha as the Word of God? If not, why not? How about the Book of Mormon? They say they believe the Bible, and the Book of Mormon is another testimony of Christ. Why reject it?

    The real issue is why do you begin with the assumption that the Bible is the word of God in the first place? Who told you that you should believe that? You obviously didn't read it in the Bible because the Bible neither defines itself nor refers to itself as a whole. (You can interpret Rev 22:19 that way if you want, but that doesn't solve the problem because the Catholic Bible also has that verse).

    All I'm trying to help you see is that your beliefs are not actually based on the Bible. You have received traditions about the Bible itself that are not contained in the Bible. Why do you believe those traditions? Do you know who started them? Are those men trustworthy? Should you stake your SOUL on those men who made up the religion you follow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Is the Catholic Bible with the apocrypha the "word of God"? If not, why not? Others think it is. By what authority do you contradict them?
    This question is a digression. Let's just stick to... that I believe the Bible is the word of God. Any authority I have, comes from my relationship with Him.
    How can you say that questions about the identity of the BIBLE is a "digression"? If you faith is based on the Bible then this question seems to be of the essence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Your idea that the Bible is "a secure foundation for understanding" is demonstrably false.
    You might conclude that the machinery people call 'a car' is useless, if you simply look at it and don't attempt to operate it correctly, but you could not be accused of thinking straight, if you had not filled it with fuel, fired it up and driven it according to the governing principles of road safety and driving. The way you talk about the Bible these days is a great disappointment, because there you have a powerful vehicle for transporting you into the presence of God and revealing to you His mind and desires, which you refuse to engage in a manner which will make it work as designed.

    That said, I am heartily glad that you continue to make the Bible Wheel book and website available, as they have the potential to bless many seekers.
    The car analogy is not accurate because we can tell when a person is properly driving a car, whereas there is no way to tell if someone is properly "driving" (using/interpreting) the Bible.

    If you want your analogy to work, you will have to state how we can objectively discern between truth and falsehood in Bible interpretation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    This is all I have time to reply right now. Hopefully, I'll address more of your points in the coming days.
    I hope so! I am enjoying the conversation and I appreciate your effort.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #29
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    Aug 2011
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    Hi Richard,

    This is a kind of PS to my earlier post. I've been thinking about your distaste for the way I 'hear' your stance against scripture, and it set me thinking about the kind of differences I would like to hear if you want to be perceived as one who is still genuinely seeking God, rather than constructing a god in the image of the education system under which you've grown up. (I know you are not the only person to have done this, so you're not alone.)

    There are two kinds of people (broadly speaking). Those who know and pursue the greater knowledge of God, who say:

    Psalm 27:8 When thou saidst, Seek ye my face;
    my heart said unto thee, Thy face, Lord, will I seek.

    Psalm 63:1 O God, thou art my God; early will I seek thee:
    my soul thirsteth for thee,
    my flesh longeth for thee
    in a dry and thirsty land, where no water is
    ;

    and those who don't. Thankfully there is usually time to draw back from this situation, as Paul states in Romans 2:4

    Psalm 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
    Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity:
    there is none that doeth good.
    2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men,
    to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
    3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy;
    there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
    4 Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge?
    who eat up my people as they eat bread:
    they have not called upon God.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  10. #30
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    Posts
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Richard,

    This is a kind of PS to my earlier post. I've been thinking about your distaste for the way I 'hear' your stance against scripture, and it set me thinking about the kind of differences I would like to hear if you want to be perceived as one who is still genuinely seeking God, rather than constructing a god in the image of the education system under which you've grown up. (I know you are not the only person to have done this, so you're not alone.)

    There are two kinds of people (broadly speaking). Those who know and pursue the greater knowledge of God, who say:

    Psalm 27:8 When thou saidst, Seek ye my face;
    my heart said unto thee, Thy face, Lord, will I seek.

    Psalm 63:1 O God, thou art my God; early will I seek thee:
    my soul thirsteth for thee,
    my flesh longeth for thee
    in a dry and thirsty land, where no water is
    ;

    and those who don't. Thankfully there is usually time to draw back from this situation, as Paul states in Romans 2:4

    Psalm 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
    Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity:
    there is none that doeth good.
    2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men,
    to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
    3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy;
    there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
    4 Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge?
    who eat up my people as they eat bread:
    they have not called upon God.
    Hey there Charisma,

    Do you think I am a fool for not believing in Allah? Apollo? Zeus?

    Why then do you think I'm a fool for not believing in Yahweh? He looks every bit as irrational and mythological as those other gods made in the image of the MALE EGO by the primitive tribes of those ancient times.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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