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  1. #11
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    Jun 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    soooo...WHAT TIME IS IT?
    It's Timmy Time!
    ...and for all of you who think this is silly,
    after we all sing-along foreward,
    those of you who think you are soooo mature
    can sing with me my very own theme song
    backwards.
    How's that?

    i hope everybody is happy now.
    If you aren't, just turn that frown upside down
    because we are just beginning.
    Hey ho Timmy,

    Given your propensity for silliness, you should know that it is highly esteemed in our household. We have both a lamp and a cat called "silly."

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    *Timmy shakes his wool, pats down his seven curly locks with his right fore-side cloven hoof, then turns to face Rose and RAM*

    Ok, Richard and Rose? Now that all the rest of us are occupied, can we talk turkey?

    Perhaps these things might be different than what you might have heard before and maybe not, but you might just be catching a glimpse of some things that just are not even seriously considered by many. Something about life feeds on life might be appropriate; but there is much much so much more to it than that if one dares enter into a place where human reason, through the mystery of paradox, becomes befuddled, then perplexed, then finally silenced just listening to the mysteries behind the veil of the order of the universe. However we choose to percieve the natural world about us, one begins to more than realize it is sooo much more than what physical eyes percieve.

    For the above reasons, your comments will find curt replies to your combined cognitive dissonance, yet it is desired to know why it's chosen choose to say these things in the first place:
    1.What is at the root?
    2. Where have these notions led others?
    3. Where have you come from and where are you going?
    4. Of the things you have said, which ones are originally yours alone, never thought or said by another?
    5. Have you inspected the end results of others who hold fast to these notions?
    6 Are these ideas giving the appearance of liberation only binding one moreso than before they were first adhered to?
    7. Who, in your own estimations, are the ones who are more free than others, to experience their environment without becoming tied to only the physical representations of various aspects of it...
    8. ...and why?

    Answers will be forthcoming, however in the meantime,in lue of the self-serving buffet line being shut down, a veritable smorgasbord of delicious delights are now available just sitting at your table. By just a button-touch with your finger, once engaging The Selectotronu-seeNtaste Tablemaster Serving Guide and Menu Order Dispenser.
    As I trust you know, I am quite aware of the natural world is "sooo much more than what physical eyes percieve." Being a non-theist only means that I reject gods made in the image of man, gods that run about "doing things" like any other bit player in the Cosmic Drama. Gods made in the image of man - the apotheosis of EGO! That's what I reject.

    As for the nature of Ultimate Reality - well, it's a bit beyond my ken, thought glimmers I see like a numinous halo suggesting something more. Is consciousness the foundation of reality, or materialism? Those are the two primary species of monism. I am not inclined towards mind/body (spirit/matter) dualism.

    So in answer to your questions:

    1) The root is Ultimate Reality. It is probably monistic, but could be dualistic. If monistic, I tend towards Idealism ....
    2) What notions?
    3) Memories fade. Plato said that we knew everything before we were born and then forgot it. Of course, it seems pretty clear that I came from the earth and will be returning there. As for anything else - who knows, who cares? I'll be finding out soon enough. Would it make any difference while I'm living here?
    4) We inherit our language so it limits our ability to think freely. But still, our sentences are usually novel improvisations based on ancient (unconscious) themes.
    5) Which notions?
    6) Please give an example.
    7) All the folks who have freed themselves from the shackles of dogmas. This includes political, religious, scientific dogmas of any ideology.
    8) Why what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    You may be thinking that to be able to see and smell various delectables while walking around the buffet tables serving your self held something of a special and even romantic reminiscient value.

    It's possible, but have you ever asked your selfs, "Who used those serving utinsils before you to dished all those palatable pleasures onto your plate?

    ...and who prepared the food you have chosen to eat?

    Who wrote the recipes...
    ...and who 'improved' on them?

    There are more questions, but let's talk about the magificent varieties of foods and drinks...and OH, the taste tingling desserts those delicacies right there in front of you considered to be better on the buffet line? Why is perpetuated conversations and a touch of the fingertip for food and drinks worse than the self-service buffet lines?
    I frequently marvel at my jar of olives imported from Italy. I think to myself: Who made the jar? Who made the label? Who made the paper for the label and the metal lid? Who picked the olives? Who designed the ship that shipped it here. Who fed the thousands who built it? Who taught the engineers? Who bound the books they read? Who cleaned the toilets of the people who made the ink for the books? Who ... it's really amazing when you think about how something as simple as a jar of olives involves the labor of people from all over the planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Just one portion of the above mentioned will be revealed for your consideration. You will now be told about some of the many who have stood around the serving line and reached into the various serving trays before you entered the restaurant...
    ...and in the meanwhile just think of all the many billions who have both served and eaten here. Kaptain Kosmoe'z Delicatessen and Chain Saw Repair Shop was here long before any of us were even twinkles in mommy's and daddy's eyes.

    Well anyway, consider the fact of a long line of mentally challenged handicapped nose-picking diggers from the Helping Hands Special People Daycare Asylum and Camp Special Time have been such wonderful guests here, Yet, we began noting some things that just weren't kosher. The food you have been eating here was finally noted to be unfitting for human consumption after our pre-dinner 'special' guests left this eatery.
    Do you ever peak into Finnegans Wake?

    Here Comes Everyone!

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post

    2 B CONTINUED
    2 B continued? OK.

    3 C

    How's that?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Hey ho Timmy...


    Do you ever peak into Finnegans Wake?

    Here Comes Everyone!


    2 B continued? OK.

    3 C

    How's that?
    Howya' Big Kahuna an' top o' the mornin' to ya' and the lady birdGreets Rose,

    Me cut ne crk that HCE be Humongus Cranial Explosion, yeah?
    YaNah...yah' know?

    Bollocks! Lady Bird n you kin' wait but gobshite the babby tots, eh?
    Ole buck Tim awakes indeed, so while m' slash in me jacks, here's to yer intermission gaze.

    Me hopes ta' be right back...if not,
    keep the fires hot
    'fore we dance a jig ta' pek
    aft' i pull up me socks
    and see wat e'er betides the day.



    Cheery ho!

    Tim

    3C ?
    Yeah yeah
    Last edited by Timmy; 02-18-2013 at 08:50 AM.
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    773
    Hi Rose,

    I have been thinking about your answer to Timmy, and can see how far you have moved away from trusting that the written word of God is a secure foundation for understanding things seen and unseen. While you are lining up with the one who first questioned God's word (Hath God said you shall surely die?), you are proving and establishing that you yourself are bound by everything the Bible says about fallen man.

    God has put His attributes in His creation, which if you are willing to let them speak to you, will direct you back to Him. The introduction of mind-games (philosophies, like those to which the serpent introduced Eve and Adam) will only perpetuate your bewilderment. Paul explains the demise of those who choose not to accommodate truth which is staring them in the face from both God and creation, in Romans 1. He declares all those who engage in abominations, and even those whom God gave over to reprobation, as worthy of death. And then he asks the all-time non-rhetorical question:
    'Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?'

    So we learn that even for those who 'knew God', there is a way back from the brink of destruction. This might be summed up (by me) as the third chance. The first chance, is to acknowledge God and worship Him right from the start. The second chance is to start accommodating truth about Him before He gives you over to the consequences of your rebellion - which can sometimes mean that He leaves you to rot and is impervious to your prayers. The third chance is to test whether repentance is still open to you by repenting with real repentance - which some say is a gift from Him.

    One thing might make that more difficult. That is, if you have become implaccable; so that not even God's great and loving kindness in giving you a last chance saloon, will induce you to humble yourself and seek real contrition. What is so sad to watch, as you and Richard risk your souls eternal well-being fo the sake of exploring sin in greater measure than you ever did before you were 'Christians', is that both of you sound less and less as if you actually care about truth anymore, at all. Yet Jesus Christ said, 'I am the Truth', and in Him are all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

    If reading about the Flood through which Noah was saved, and the death of Christ on the cross is not enough to convince you that God cares for man far more than man is capable of caring for God unless He changes our hearts (old hearts for new hearts), then you have begun to lose the plot, or, you never quite had the plot in the first place - which is entirely possible. Many who think they are Christians have never really grappled with God Himself until they can say like Jacob that they've met Him face-to-face, and live. It's a moot point that Jacob did not 'win' the wrestling, but was overcome by Him who overcomes, thus being given his new name, Israel - God prevails. Unless you become willing to be prevailed over by God (to be blessed by Him), the day will come when you are prevailed over by Him to be condemned.

    Hebrews 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

    Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

    Acts 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

    Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. 40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; 41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

    2 Corinthians 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.



    Truth is an absolute which, when you encounter it, you have to capacity to recognise. From that moment on, you are held accountable. Of course, we are all being held accountable for what we are sowing or building and we will all be tried by fire (death). Just because a person sins delicately, or in a culturally acceptable way, doesn't mean they will escape final testing. God has never been culturally sensitive to man's preferences. On the contrary, the culture He's sensitive about is the one He designed for His creation, which He redeemed with His own blood.

    Genesis 11:6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

    You can't fault the Lord's desire to have fellowship with mankind, and His general resistance to mankind settling for fellowship with itself. That is a plain evidence of the effect of the fall on Adam's descendants. They wanted to get to God their own way.

    Interesting, isn't it, that the serpent told only half the truth to Adam and Eve? He lied about them not dying, viz, he didn't tell them that once they became 'as gods knowing good and evil', God would not permit them to live for ever; and didn't warn that they would be separated from Him.

    2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Coming to a knowledge of the truth, necessarily means ceasing from eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and starting to eat of the tree of life.

    You know that 'God our Saviour; 4 ... will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.' 1 Timothy 2.

    Psalm 69:19 Thou hast known my reproach, and my shame, and my dishonour:
    mine adversaries are all before thee.
    20 Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness:
    and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none;
    and for comforters, but I found none.
    21 They gave me also gall for my meat;
    and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

    22 Let their table become a snare before them:
    and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.
    23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not;
    and make their loins continually to shake.
    24 Pour out thine indignation upon them,
    and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.
    25 Let their habitation be desolate;
    and let none dwell in their tents.
    26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten;
    and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
    27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity:
    and let them not come into thy righteousness.
    28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living,
    and not be written with the righteous.




    Despite the fact that resurrection is mentioned unmistakably in scripture many times, many people pretend to themselves it won't happen because they don't want to think about it. That's called self-deception. Self-deception follows after the person has colluded with deception.

    Don't be one of those. Think about it. Why waste eternity on ephemeral philosophies?

    Be smarter than that, and let God bless you (forever).
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Rose,

    I have been thinking about your answer to Timmy, and can see how far you have moved away from trusting that the written word of God is a secure foundation for understanding things seen and unseen. While you are lining up with the one who first questioned God's word (Hath God said you shall surely die?), you are proving and establishing that you yourself are bound by everything the Bible says about fallen man.
    Hi Charisma,

    What makes you think the Bible is the written word of god? Why should I trust in an ancient book written by primitive men who saw nothing wrong with denying women equal rights and treating them like property? Besides that, the god these primitive men created was as biased against women and girls as they were.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    God has put His attributes in His creation, which if you are willing to let them speak to you, will direct you back to Him. The introduction of mind-games (philosophies, like those to which the serpent introduced Eve and Adam) will only perpetuate your bewilderment. Paul explains the demise of those who choose not to accommodate truth which is staring them in the face from both God and creation, in Romans 1. He declares all those who engage in abominations, and even those whom God gave over to reprobation, as worthy of death. And then he asks the all-time non-rhetorical question:
    'Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?'
    Among the attributes of god described in the Bible are vengeance, jealousy, retribution and judgment. These qualities are manifest in very negative ways in humans and have led men to do horrendous things in the name of god.

    In my opinion Paul is not trustworthy. He is a typical man of his time period who blamed the mythological figure Eve for causing mankind to fall into sin, thus justifying his belief that women should be in subjugation to men.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    So we learn that even for those who 'knew God', there is a way back from the brink of destruction. This might be summed up (by me) as the third chance. The first chance, is to acknowledge God and worship Him right from the start. The second chance is to start accommodating truth about Him before He gives you over to the consequences of your rebellion - which can sometimes mean that He leaves you to rot and is impervious to your prayers. The third chance is to test whether repentance is still open to you by repenting with real repentance - which some say is a gift from Him.
    If there is a creator god it certainly is not the god of the Bible. The god described in the pages of Scripture is a gender biased, misogynistic tyrant who demands worship and praise at the expense of the well being of humans. Why should I put myself in bondage to the ideas of primitive Bronze Age men, who thought that women were inferior to them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    One thing might make that more difficult. That is, if you have become implaccable; so that not even God's great and loving kindness in giving you a last chance saloon, will induce you to humble yourself and seek real contrition. What is so sad to watch, as you and Richard risk your souls eternal well-being fo the sake of exploring sin in greater measure than you ever did before you were 'Christians', is that both of you sound less and less as if you actually care about truth anymore, at all. Yet Jesus Christ said, 'I am the Truth', and in Him are all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
    I fail to see the loving kindness in the actions of a god who would decree that women be treated in such an immoral and abusive manner. There can be no love in a god who orders the slaughter of innocent women and children while commanding that NO MERCY be shown to them.

    It is because Richard and I care so much about truth that we could no longer believe the lie that the Bible is the word of god. The minute we opened our eyes to the truth it became clear that the Bible is no more than the ideas of primitive men who posited a god to account for what they couldn't understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    If reading about the Flood through which Noah was saved, and the death of Christ on the cross is not enough to convince you that God cares for man far more than man is capable of caring for God unless He changes our hearts (old hearts for new hearts), then you have begun to lose the plot, or, you never quite had the plot in the first place - which is entirely possible. Many who think they are Christians have never really grappled with God Himself until they can say like Jacob that they've met Him face-to-face, and live. It's a moot point that Jacob did not 'win' the wrestling, but was overcome by Him who overcomes, thus being given his new name, Israel - God prevails. Unless you become willing to be prevailed over by God (to be blessed by Him), the day will come when you are prevailed over by Him to be condemned.
    The Flood story does no more then tell me that the biblical god is a genocidal maniac who thinks the solution to every problem is bloodshed, including the human sacrifice of his own son. Doesn't sound very loving or long suffering to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Interesting, isn't it, that the serpent told only half the truth to Adam and Eve? He lied about them not dying, viz, he didn't tell them that once they became 'as gods knowing good and evil', God would not permit them to live for ever; and didn't warn that they would be separated from Him.
    What I think is interesting is that you don't realize the whole Garden story of Adam, Eve and the serpent is just an ancient mythological tale.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Rose,

    I have been thinking about your answer to Timmy, and can see how far you have moved away from trusting that the written word of God is a secure foundation for understanding things seen and unseen. While you are lining up with the one who first questioned God's word (Hath God said you shall surely die?), you are proving and establishing that you yourself are bound by everything the Bible says about fallen man.
    Hey there Charisma,

    I'm really glad you feel free to speak you mind. I will respond in kind. Your idea that the Bible is "a secure foundation for understanding" is demonstrably false. Just look at the endless debates between Christians about what it really means. Equally devout believers come do diametrically opposed conclusions. Why is that? Because the Bible is a very ambiguous book filled with contradictions so every interpreter must rely on their own judgment to determine what it "really" means. So the Bible is not any kind of "foundation" at all. You are relying on your own interpretation which is based on many baseless assumptions, the most obvious being your idea that the "Bible" is the "word of God." The Bible doesn't even define itself. Is the Catholic Bible with the apocrypha the "word of God"? If not, why not? Others think it is. By what authority do you contradict them?

    Your suggestion that Rose and I are "lining up with the one who first questioned God's word" is a very nasty way of implying that we are Satanic merely because we have spoken truth. In biblical terms, this is like blaspheming the "spirit of truth" - the Holy Spirit. If we have written anything that is not true, your duty is to expose our errors, not insinuate that we are like the Devil.

    Now since you brought it up, let's look at who spoke truth in the Garden and who did not. God said that Adam and Eve would "surely die" the DAY they ate. Did they? Nope. The serpent said that there eyes would be opened and they would be like God. Is that what happened? Yes. Thus, it was the serpent who spoke truth and God who lied. And worse, God did not tell them anything about what would REALLY happen, namely, that he would kick them out of the garden and cause their children to suffer for millennia! The story of the fall shows God to be deceptive and cruel. He did not speak truth to his own children and he deliberately cursed all humanity to suffer for ages with no good reason at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    God has put His attributes in His creation, which if you are willing to let them speak to you, will direct you back to Him. The introduction of mind-games (philosophies, like those to which the serpent introduced Eve and Adam) will only perpetuate your bewilderment. Paul explains the demise of those who choose not to accommodate truth which is staring them in the face from both God and creation, in Romans 1. He declares all those who engage in abominations, and even those whom God gave over to reprobation, as worthy of death. And then he asks the all-time non-rhetorical question:
    'Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?'

    So we learn that even for those who 'knew God', there is a way back from the brink of destruction. This might be summed up (by me) as the third chance. The first chance, is to acknowledge God and worship Him right from the start. The second chance is to start accommodating truth about Him before He gives you over to the consequences of your rebellion - which can sometimes mean that He leaves you to rot and is impervious to your prayers. The third chance is to test whether repentance is still open to you by repenting with real repentance - which some say is a gift from Him.
    Using our intelligence to understand the truth is not a "mind-game." It is what the Bible tells every person to do.

    There is great irony in your comment because there is no greater "mind-game" than the one to which you have subjected yourself. Your religion is nothing but a huge "mind-game" spanning thousands of years. You begin with assumptions that have no basis in fact and then ignore all facts that contradict them. Just look at the kinds of excuses you are willing to make up to justify your beliefs.

    Your appeal to prayer makes no sense. It is a demonstrable fact that God does not, as a general rule, answer any prayers. This shows how Christians have lost their minds. They constantly assert that God is "trustworthy" when in fact they know with perfect certainty that God cannot actually be TRUSTED to do anything at all for anyone in this life. Your words therefore have no meaning. When you say that you "trust" God all you really mean is that no matter what happens, it's for the best because God allowed it. The concept therefore is ABSOLUTELY INDISTINGUISHABLE from a universe in which God does not exist. You would get exactly the same results if you prayed to a milk jug.


    Please watch that video and explain why it is not true.

    The foundation of your belief is fallacious. It is built on the idea of the MALE EGO-GOD that demands, Demands, DEMANDS! obedience and worship and will inflict eternal suffering upon those who do not submit. Such a god is obviously the product of primitive brutal ignorant males.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    One thing might make that more difficult. That is, if you have become implaccable; so that not even God's great and loving kindness in giving you a last chance saloon, will induce you to humble yourself and seek real contrition. What is so sad to watch, as you and Richard risk your souls eternal well-being fo the sake of exploring sin in greater measure than you ever did before you were 'Christians', is that both of you sound less and less as if you actually care about truth anymore, at all. Yet Jesus Christ said, 'I am the Truth', and in Him are all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
    Your idea that we want to "explore sin" is as ridiculous as it is rude, disgusting, and slanderous. We are seeking nothing but the TRUTH that you reject so vehemently because it is fatal to your fantasies. The great irony of Christianity is that it claims to worship the TRUTH in the person of Jesus Christ and then proceeds to trample it under foot in service of religious dogmas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    If reading about the Flood through which Noah was saved, and the death of Christ on the cross is not enough to convince you that God cares for man far more than man is capable of caring for God unless He changes our hearts (old hearts for new hearts), then you have begun to lose the plot, or, you never quite had the plot in the first place - which is entirely possible. Many who think they are Christians have never really grappled with God Himself until they can say like Jacob that they've met Him face-to-face, and live. It's a moot point that Jacob did not 'win' the wrestling, but was overcome by Him who overcomes, thus being given his new name, Israel - God prevails. Unless you become willing to be prevailed over by God (to be blessed by Him), the day will come when you are prevailed over by Him to be condemned.
    Reading about the Flood does not lead to belief because that story proves the Bible is false. The proof is total and complete. DNA and the fossil record proves that there was no global extinction of land animals in the last 10,000 years. And there are many other problems with that story that is so obviously mythological. Your appeal to it as something that should convince a rational person to believe shows how far removed you are from common reality shared by most citizens of the 21st century. It's the LAST thing that should be mentioned since it is a HUGE problem for all informed believers. Don't you know about the thousands of hours sincere believers have wasted trying to reconcile the flood story with reality? Essentially all scientifically trained believers have abandoned the effort. They have quit because they know it is impossible. The flood simply did not happen.

    And the death of Christ - why would anyone think that was necessary to forgive sin? I forgive people every day without demanding a bloody sacrifice. Why can I do what God cannot? And you can't kill the innocent in the place of the guilty! How would that be justice?

    If God is truly omnipotent, he will "prevail" without my permission. Your suggestion that mere humans must "let" God do what he wants to do contradicts your idea that he is sovereign. This is one of the deepest incoherent doctrines of Christianity. The Calvinists got it right. According to the Bible, no one can resist God's will, and there is NOTHING that anyone can do to "get saved." God alone saves those whom he chooses, and he damns the rest. This is what was taught by the Reformers - those who gave you your Protestant religion and Bible. So you follow their tradition when it suits you, and you reject it when it doesn't. You are just doing what is right in your own eyes. You are the final judge and jury of what the Bible "really" means. Forgive me if I do not bow to you as the Ultimate Authority on spiritual truth. You cloak your personal interpretations under bold proclamations that the Bible is "God's word" but then you just make up whatever you want to believe. Consider our friend David M. He does exactly the same thing and comes to diametrically opposed conclusions. He declares absolutely that the Bible teaches that JESUS IS NOT GOD! So who am I to believe? The answer doesn't matter, of course, since whatever conclusion I choose will be due to my own fallible reasoning. How than can the Bible be trusted as a "secure foundation" if believers can't even agree about what it means?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Truth is an absolute which, when you encounter it, you have to capacity to recognise. From that moment on, you are held accountable. Of course, we are all being held accountable for what we are sowing or building and we will all be tried by fire (death). Just because a person sins delicately, or in a culturally acceptable way, doesn't mean they will escape final testing. God has never been culturally sensitive to man's preferences. On the contrary, the culture He's sensitive about is the one He designed for His creation, which He redeemed with His own blood.
    I agree! I have encountered the TRUTH that the Bible, as you and all most Christians understand it, is FALSE. There. That was easy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Genesis 11:6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

    You can't fault the Lord's desire to have fellowship with mankind, and His general resistance to mankind settling for fellowship with itself. That is a plain evidence of the effect of the fall on Adam's descendants. They wanted to get to God their own way.
    So you really believe that all the different languages resulted from God "confounding" the one language a few thousand years ago? If so, then again you are displaying a gross and inexcusable ignorance since we have lots of evidence of how languages evolved independently all over the planet. The Tower of Babel is obviously a MYTH.

    The idea that God wants "fellowship" strikes me as utterly absurd, since if he exists, he has done everything in his power to hide from everyone! Especially those who most fervently believe in him. We know that he hides from believers because they constantly assert that "God said this" while another says "NO! God said that!" and a third says "You are both wrong! God distinctly stated this other thing!" It's madness, pure madness. How could you invite anyone to join you in such a House of Babel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Interesting, isn't it, that the serpent told only half the truth to Adam and Eve? He lied about them not dying, viz, he didn't tell them that once they became 'as gods knowing good and evil', God would not permit them to live for ever; and didn't warn that they would be separated from Him.
    So you fault the devil for not warning them about the consequence of their actions? Great! Then you are faulting GOD HIMSELF because God never warned them about the real consequences of disobedience. He said they would merely die, but what did God really intend? He knew that he would CURSE THEM AND THEIR CHILDREN AND THE EARTH ITSELF and so cause all the suffering in the history of the world. That's what your "God" did! Where is his honesty? Why would you trust him to tell you the truth when he deceived your first parents and caused all the suffering that ever happened on this planet? And what about all the people he plans to torment for eternity? Don't you care about those people?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Despite the fact that resurrection is mentioned unmistakably in scripture many times, many people pretend to themselves it won't happen because they don't want to think about it. That's called self-deception. Self-deception follows after the person has colluded with deception.

    Don't be one of those. Think about it. Why waste eternity on ephemeral philosophies?

    Be smarter than that, and let God bless you (forever).
    Self-deception? That's how your beliefs look to me. So how do you know if you are deceived or not? That's what you need to answer. I hope you can be sufficiently smart to answer.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  6. #16
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    Not both of them--just Adam..
    Gen2:15: And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
    2:16: And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  7. #17
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    Hello Richard, Rose, Charisma and all who are contributing to this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Consider our friend David M. He does exactly the same thing and comes to diametrically opposed conclusions. He declares absolutely that the Bible teaches that JESUS IS NOT GOD! So who am I to believe? The answer doesn't matter, of course, since whatever conclusion I choose will be due to my own fallible reasoning. How than can the Bible be trusted as a "secure foundation" if believers can't even agree about what it means?
    Since Richard has made reference to me, I will perhaps add to the thread I started “Jesus is not God” having some more to say on the subject which I will not go into here. As I read this thread, it appears to be the same old “same old” being spoken by Richard and Rose which invoked in me a sigh of despair. Nevertheless, I must keep plugging away in the hope that some of my comments sink in and that Richard and Rose might yet see the error of their thinking.

    I have been less active on this forum recently than 12 months ago when there was lots I wanted to say, but having covered most everything I wanted to, there comes a point where it is a matter of going over the same ground. During the last several weeks, after I stumbled across a video on Youtube by Michael Rood in which he shows the ruins of Sodom and Gomorrah (which stand as a witness to the events that took place), I have been watching all his videos in order to see on what points of doctrine he and I might differ. Up to now, I have not come across anything fundamental on which to disagree with him. In his Shabbat Night Live shows in which he teaches and talks to guests, you might be amazed at the things that have happened to him and his guests who witness to the power of prayer. The synchronicities which have happened to Michael Rood and his guests are remarkable.

    I have started a thread on the subject of ‘A Rood Awakening’ and would be happy to discuss some of the points that come out of his understanding and teaching on the truth of scripture. In connection with the relation between Jesus and God, Rood gives his understanding of Psalm 110 where David writes; The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
    This has to be understood in connection the question Jesus asked; (Matt 22: 42) Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

    Just to cite one comment from Rose’s reply;
    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    In my opinion Paul is not trustworthy. He is a typical man of his time period who blamed the mythological figure Eve for causing mankind to fall into sin, thus justifying his belief that women should be in subjugation to men.

    I fail to see the loving kindness.....
    Rose uses the words; “In my opinion” and “I fail to see” and is the exact reason why we appear as “idiots” in the scriptural sense of the word when we do not have a proper understanding of the message God is telling us and in the history of God’s chosen people He has left on record for our learning. Understanding the basic instructions from God should leave no room for opinion; after all, Jesus was not giving us his opinion of God’s word, he was speaking as he heard from his Heavenly Father.

    The apostle Paul knew what King David meant and how to answer Jesus’ question. The comment by Rose are to me (and to quote Richard) “are absurd”. Paul knew the scriptures and including the law (the Torah) extremely well. Paul was raised as a Pharisee under the tutorship of Gamaliel and Paul would have been able to recite the whole of the Torah from memory. Paul was not an “idiot” when it came to understanding and interpreting scripture. It is the “hard things” spoken about by Paul, which unlearned people do not understand and so they take the same scriptures and ”wrest to their own destruction”. Paul is totally a trustworthy man of whom we can say is like Richard and Rose whose zeal was/is misplaced. Paul was confronted by Jesus on the Road to Damascus (soon now to become a “ruinous heap” according to the prophecy of Isaiah) and Paul saw the error of his understanding and had to accept what he knew was fundamentally the truth. In the same way that Michael Rood was once a paid Baptist minister who was teaching the lies promugalted by the church. He knew in his heart that some things he was teaching were not correct. There were things that did not make sense and were in contradiction to what the Bible says. For forty years he has studied the gospels and has produced his book enttiled; 'The Chronological Gospels' (of which I would like to purchase a copy when available) and in which he has put all of the events of the ministry of Jesus in chronological order and about which he concludes that the ministry of Jesus lasted 70 weeks. Once his book is published and becomes available to the public, it will be worth reading through it to see where we agree or disagree with him. For the moment, we have many videos posted on Youtube and I highly recommend them for anyone who belongs to a mainstream Christian church. A revival in these last days might be happening and as Michael Rood is doing, he is going out into all the world to spread the gospel and the truth of God’s word.

    To round off; I am very sceptical of those who teach for truth the doctrines of men, doctrines which have no foundation supported by scripture and for which Jesus accused the Pharisees for adding to the Torah. It was these non-Torah commands which Jesus broke which upset the Pharisees.

    All the best,

    David

  8. #18
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    Hello Rose,

    Thank you for your reply to my post to you.

    Hi Charisma,

    What makes you think the Bible is the written word of god?
    I know the Author. I recognise His voice, and I recognise the consistency of His revelation of His own value system, which is the only one which counts.

    Why should I trust in an ancient book
    No reason at all. But you should trust in the God who inspired its writing, because that would be beneficial to your longterm spiritual health.

    Among the attributes of god described in the Bible are vengeance, jealousy, retribution and judgment. These qualities are manifest in very negative ways in humans and have led men to do horrendous things in the name of god.
    Are you suggesting that God should change, because you don't like Him, and you don't like the men who are made in His image? Might that be because the first man made a fatal mistake which we all recognise every time someone we know, dies, and when we see the frailty of 'good and evil' in the world, we know that we are not as like God as originally He designed?

    Perhaps man would never have discovered the 'vengeance, jealousy, retribution and judgment' of God, if he had obeyed Him from the start?

    In my opinion Paul is not trustworthy.
    Um... Why should anyone care what you think about Paul? You are displaying the very reason God sent His Son to die for us... We are irrevocably contrary to His thinking and desiring, unless we undergo a complete change of heart and mind, and get some fresh insight into His perspective.

    He is a typical man of his time period who blamed the mythological figure Eve for causing mankind to fall into sin, thus justifying his belief that women should be in subjugation to men.
    You have a rather important misunderstanding of Paul's teaching, there. At no time did either Paul or God hold Eve responsible for Adam falling into sin.

    God's desire is that men should, now, take their place leading their families, starting with their taking responsibility for their woman.

    If there is a creator god it certainly is not the god of the Bible.
    You might think you know the God of the Bible well enough to make such a pronouncement, but you aren't describing Him very well at all. Your selective amnesia for all the good things He does, betrays your bias against Him. You've never really looked at the Bible with an open mind.

    The god described in the pages of Scripture is a gender biased, misogynistic tyrant who demands worship and praise at the expense of the well being of humans.
    Again you misunderstand Him. Worshipping God is a source of health and well-being to humans. Humans who do not worship Him are getting far less out of life than is available to those who worship Him in Spirit and truth as He requires. And being God He IS allowed to require whatever pleases Him.

    Why should I put myself in bondage to the ideas of primitive Bronze Age men, who thought that women were inferior to them?
    No reason at all. But there is every reason to entrust your soul to the only God who can save it from destruction.

    I fail to see the loving kindness in the actions of a god who would decree that women be treated in such an immoral and abusive manner. There can be no love in a god who orders the slaughter of innocent women and children while commanding that NO MERCY be shown to them.
    I don't think you're giving the humans who lived at that time, quite enough credit for the similarity to yours of the choices they made to not co-operate with God in their day. I mean, you're making a good attempt to emulate them. What reason is there that God should spare you in your rebellion?

    It is because Richard and I care so much about truth that we could no longer believe the lie that the Bible is the word of god.
    I could be wrong, but I think what you mean is that you got tired of pretending you believed scripture was the word of God, and you stopped pretending. That was an honest and brave decision - to stop deceiving yourselves that you were in a relationship with God that you were not. However, you won't find truth in the world. Jesus Christ is still the Truth.

    The minute we opened our eyes to the truth it became clear that the Bible is no more than the ideas of primitive men who posited a god to account for what they couldn't understand.
    Let me rearrange that statement, too, please. What you mean is that the moment you realised it was true that you don't believe the Bible, you looked for a human way to explain what you thought you then understood. You haven't actually set out to understand God at all, yet. But you could always give it a go while you have time. I'm sure you've enjoyed dissing His name and dissing His ways, never for a moment thinking you're only proving how right He always is.

    The Flood story does no more then tell me that the biblical god is a genocidal maniac who thinks the solution to every problem is bloodshed, including the human sacrifice of his own son. Doesn't sound very loving or long suffering to me.
    You're not getting it, are you? He's right! What other solution is there? Just give up on people altogether and let them do what they want? Isn't there enough misery and violence in the world because of what humans do independently of God? If God can't stop them, how are you going to?

    What I think is interesting is that you don't realize the whole Garden story of Adam, Eve and the serpent is just an ancient mythological tale.
    Well, I'm glad you're entertained. I think it's interesting that you are willing to spend your time eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, when you can see what that has done to the human race down the centuries, rather than trying to find out where the tree of life (truth) is now located, and beating a path to its.... um.... fruit. I mean, clearly the tree of life still exists, because the tree of 'knowledge' still exists. Maybe it will dawn on you one day that unless you find it, you are going to be yet another needless casualty at the hand of God's perfect justice.


    Keep searching, sister. The truth is out there!
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  9. #19
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    "The answer of your master...found in the pages of Scripture, whose authorship is that of primitive men. It says the thief comes to kill and destroy, yet your master allows this thief to run rampant amongst men. Your master says that he has come to give mankind abundant life, yet at every turn he allows life to be taken away in the most horrendous fashion, when only a word from his mouth would bring forth legions of angels. How can I trust his words?"

    Whew I almost burst out laughing at that statement.
    (Hint hint) spiritual life vs spiritual death or physical life vs physical death. Hmm Jesus gave us the ability to repent through him for our SPIRIT bodies no not physical ones but our SPIRIT ones. So the life he abundantly gives is SPIRITUAL redemption from the second death.
    "There is nothing but shame to be gained by willfully holding to false opinions!"
    How true.

  10. #20
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    "i will have my back turned just for a bit to talk rith R&R, so Ricky, don't pull kathy's pony tails
    ...and Charis'? Please do not spit on the Lotus' feet or Bobby either. Besides, it's not ladylike...
    ...and none of such doings is proper ettiquette
    ...AND YUR MUMS AND DADS WILL BE NOTIFIED IF ANY OF YOU ACT OUT!"

    When did Timmy become possessed? Or is he just communicating in a tounge?
    "There is nothing but shame to be gained by willfully holding to false opinions!"
    How true.

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