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  1. #1
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    HOW SKEPTICAL ARE YOU ???

    ARE YOU LISTENING?
    ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING??ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING? ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?


    Timmy
    Last edited by Timmy; 02-03-2012 at 04:45 AM.
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    ARE YOU LISTENING?
    ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING??ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING? ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?ARE YOU LISTENING?


    Timmy
    Hi Timmy,

    I AM LISTENING...to all the wonderful sounds of nature, BUT what I also hear are the horrendous sounds of natural disasters that kill hundreds of thousands of people What is God saying then?

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  3. #3
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    Hey ho, Timmy Oh!

    I'm listening.

    But the wonders of nature don't make me believe in Apollo, Zeus, or Yahweh.

    But I do believe there is a "God" in the sense of "Ground of Being" or "Cosmic Consciousness" or something along those lines. But nature is not "designed" in the way that makes me think there is a "top down designer" like the God of the Bible. That leads to all sorts of confusions about why he helps old ladies find their dog "Fluffy" and Tim Tebow win (and then lose) football games while simultaneously letting 200,000 people die in the Haiti earthquake. In other words, if there is a God who oversees the daily affairs of this world, then his priorities seem to be really messed up.

    And that song ... it doesn't have much of an "edge" to it, does it? A little too saccharine for my taste. But hey! To each his own.

    Rolling on ....

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  4. #4
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    Gestern Rose, dann RAM, freundlicherweise Timmy auf diese weise begrüsst "Hi Timmy.I AM LISTENING.....and then RAM chimed in "Hey ho, Timmy Oh!I'm listening."
    Hi there Rose and Richard!
    Have we got a treat for you two; though not only you, but all the kiddies wandering about this acropolis today.It's a song. Don't be shy, because i want to hear everybody: Rose...and you too Richie, and Debbie. . .and...and Ricky and Eddie and Joey and Johnny and Gilbert and everybody else...and even little me...we can all sing along together...

    ...because: DO YOU KNOW WHAT TIME IT IS?
    It's candy coated, but there's no saccharine.

    soooo...WHAT TIME IS IT?
    It's Timmy Time!
    ...and for all of you who think this is silly,
    after we all sing-along foreward,
    those of you who think you are soooo mature
    can sing with me my very own theme song
    backwards.

    First i'm going to sing it to you
    so you can just get a feel for it
    and also hear what i sound like singing,
    and thennnN
    we can sing my very own theme song all together
    Ready to hear me singing it?

    HERE GOES:



    OK, is everyone ready???
    All together now:



    And as promised, we can all now sing it in reverse:


    How's that?

    i hope everybody is happy now.
    If you aren't, just turn that frown upside down
    because we are just beginning.

    Sing it again and again until you learn it really good, then holler for me and we can take it from the top.

    i will have my back turned just for a bit to talk rith R&R, so Ricky, don't pull kathy's pony tails
    ...and Charis'? Please do not spit on the Lotus' feet or Bobby either. Besides, it's not ladylike...
    ...and none of such doings is proper ettiquette
    ...AND YUR MUMS AND DADS WILL BE NOTIFIED IF ANY OF YOU ACT OUT!

    If you all are really good while having this back turned for just a couple of minutes, i have an even more special treat for all of you!

    *Timmy shakes his wool, pats down his seven curly locks with his right fore-side cloven hoof, then turns to face Rose and RAM*

    Ok, Richard and Rose? Now that all the rest of us are occupied, can we talk turkey?

    Perhaps these things might be different than what you might have heard before and maybe not, but you might just be catching a glimpse of some things that just are not even seriously considered by many. Something about life feeds on life might be appropriate; but there is much much so much more to it than that if one dares enter into a place where human reason, through the mystery of paradox, becomes befuddled, then perplexed, then finally silenced just listening to the mysteries behind the veil of the order of the universe. However we choose to percieve the natural world about us, one begins to more than realize it is sooo much more than what physical eyes percieve.

    For the above reasons, your comments will find curt replies to your combined cognitive dissonance, yet it is desired to know why it's chosen choose to say these things in the first place:
    1.What is at the root?
    2. Where have these notions led others?
    3. Where have you come from and where are you going?
    4. Of the things you have said, which ones are originally yours alone, never thought or said by another?
    5. Have you inspected the end results of others who hold fast to these notions?
    6 Are these ideas giving the appearance of liberation only binding one moreso than before they were first adhered to?
    7. Who, in your own estimations, are the ones who are more free than others, to experience their environment without becoming tied to only the physical representations of various aspects of it...
    8. ...and why?

    Answers will be forthcoming, however in the meantime,in lue of the self-serving buffet line being shut down, a veritable smorgasbord of delicious delights are now available just sitting at your table. By just a button-touch with your finger, once engaging The Selectotronu-seeNtaste Tablemaster Serving Guide and Menu Order Dispenser.

    You may be thinking that to be able to see and smell various delectables while walking around the buffet tables serving your self held something of a special and even romantic reminiscient value.

    It's possible, but have you ever asked your selfs, "Who used those serving utinsils before you to dished all those palatable pleasures onto your plate?

    ...and who prepared the food you have chosen to eat?

    Who wrote the recipes...
    ...and who 'improved' on them?

    There are more questions, but let's talk about the magificent varieties of foods and drinks...and OH, the taste tingling desserts those delicacies right there in front of you considered to be better on the buffet line? Why is perpetuated conversations and a touch of the fingertip for food and drinks worse than the self-service buffet lines?

    Just one portion of the above mentioned will be revealed for your consideration. You will now be told about some of the many who have stood around the serving line and reached into the various serving trays before you entered the restaurant...
    ...and in the meanwhile just think of all the many billions who have both served and eaten here. Kaptain Kosmoe'z Delicatessen and Chain Saw Repair Shop was here long before any of us were even twinkles in mommy's and daddy's eyes.

    Well anyway, consider the fact of a long line of mentally challenged handicapped nose-picking diggers from the Helping Hands Special People Daycare Asylum and Camp Special Time have been such wonderful guests here, Yet, we began noting some things that just weren't kosher. The food you have been eating here was finally noted to be unfitting for human consumption after our pre-dinner 'special' guests left this eatery.

    If D.U.M.B.(t.m.), the Department Under Mental Behaviours, and their elite specialist had not investigated these going ons, you probably still would be filling your plates with residual salivary treats from the self service buffet line after they had already finished their evening meals here.

    Some were noted drooling profusely while others with intermittent conversations slobbered all over everything while dishing up yet another plate. This was then reported to D.U.M.B.(t.m.).

    It has since been discovered this exsessive drivel of saliva began when both the special persons day camp and asylum psychoscitzophreneologists would prepare these mentally challenged special people by ringing a Pavlovian bell at the behest of their supervisory commitee when it was time for din din.

    We have revealed nothing of where these special people's fingers had been prior to handing serving utensils and sometimes the food on the self-service tables.
    (The microbiological labratory specialists at D.U.M.B. would have had a field day, as the Department of Human Helath and Services, had they known the full details of where all those fingers had been.

    THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME AND ATTENTION,

    Timmy

    2 B CONTINUED
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    soooo...WHAT TIME IS IT?
    It's Timmy Time!
    ...and for all of you who think this is silly,
    after we all sing-along foreward,
    those of you who think you are soooo mature
    can sing with me my very own theme song
    backwards.
    How's that?

    i hope everybody is happy now.
    If you aren't, just turn that frown upside down
    because we are just beginning.
    Hey ho Timmy,

    Given your propensity for silliness, you should know that it is highly esteemed in our household. We have both a lamp and a cat called "silly."

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    *Timmy shakes his wool, pats down his seven curly locks with his right fore-side cloven hoof, then turns to face Rose and RAM*

    Ok, Richard and Rose? Now that all the rest of us are occupied, can we talk turkey?

    Perhaps these things might be different than what you might have heard before and maybe not, but you might just be catching a glimpse of some things that just are not even seriously considered by many. Something about life feeds on life might be appropriate; but there is much much so much more to it than that if one dares enter into a place where human reason, through the mystery of paradox, becomes befuddled, then perplexed, then finally silenced just listening to the mysteries behind the veil of the order of the universe. However we choose to percieve the natural world about us, one begins to more than realize it is sooo much more than what physical eyes percieve.

    For the above reasons, your comments will find curt replies to your combined cognitive dissonance, yet it is desired to know why it's chosen choose to say these things in the first place:
    1.What is at the root?
    2. Where have these notions led others?
    3. Where have you come from and where are you going?
    4. Of the things you have said, which ones are originally yours alone, never thought or said by another?
    5. Have you inspected the end results of others who hold fast to these notions?
    6 Are these ideas giving the appearance of liberation only binding one moreso than before they were first adhered to?
    7. Who, in your own estimations, are the ones who are more free than others, to experience their environment without becoming tied to only the physical representations of various aspects of it...
    8. ...and why?

    Answers will be forthcoming, however in the meantime,in lue of the self-serving buffet line being shut down, a veritable smorgasbord of delicious delights are now available just sitting at your table. By just a button-touch with your finger, once engaging The Selectotronu-seeNtaste Tablemaster Serving Guide and Menu Order Dispenser.
    As I trust you know, I am quite aware of the natural world is "sooo much more than what physical eyes percieve." Being a non-theist only means that I reject gods made in the image of man, gods that run about "doing things" like any other bit player in the Cosmic Drama. Gods made in the image of man - the apotheosis of EGO! That's what I reject.

    As for the nature of Ultimate Reality - well, it's a bit beyond my ken, thought glimmers I see like a numinous halo suggesting something more. Is consciousness the foundation of reality, or materialism? Those are the two primary species of monism. I am not inclined towards mind/body (spirit/matter) dualism.

    So in answer to your questions:

    1) The root is Ultimate Reality. It is probably monistic, but could be dualistic. If monistic, I tend towards Idealism ....
    2) What notions?
    3) Memories fade. Plato said that we knew everything before we were born and then forgot it. Of course, it seems pretty clear that I came from the earth and will be returning there. As for anything else - who knows, who cares? I'll be finding out soon enough. Would it make any difference while I'm living here?
    4) We inherit our language so it limits our ability to think freely. But still, our sentences are usually novel improvisations based on ancient (unconscious) themes.
    5) Which notions?
    6) Please give an example.
    7) All the folks who have freed themselves from the shackles of dogmas. This includes political, religious, scientific dogmas of any ideology.
    8) Why what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    You may be thinking that to be able to see and smell various delectables while walking around the buffet tables serving your self held something of a special and even romantic reminiscient value.

    It's possible, but have you ever asked your selfs, "Who used those serving utinsils before you to dished all those palatable pleasures onto your plate?

    ...and who prepared the food you have chosen to eat?

    Who wrote the recipes...
    ...and who 'improved' on them?

    There are more questions, but let's talk about the magificent varieties of foods and drinks...and OH, the taste tingling desserts those delicacies right there in front of you considered to be better on the buffet line? Why is perpetuated conversations and a touch of the fingertip for food and drinks worse than the self-service buffet lines?
    I frequently marvel at my jar of olives imported from Italy. I think to myself: Who made the jar? Who made the label? Who made the paper for the label and the metal lid? Who picked the olives? Who designed the ship that shipped it here. Who fed the thousands who built it? Who taught the engineers? Who bound the books they read? Who cleaned the toilets of the people who made the ink for the books? Who ... it's really amazing when you think about how something as simple as a jar of olives involves the labor of people from all over the planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Just one portion of the above mentioned will be revealed for your consideration. You will now be told about some of the many who have stood around the serving line and reached into the various serving trays before you entered the restaurant...
    ...and in the meanwhile just think of all the many billions who have both served and eaten here. Kaptain Kosmoe'z Delicatessen and Chain Saw Repair Shop was here long before any of us were even twinkles in mommy's and daddy's eyes.

    Well anyway, consider the fact of a long line of mentally challenged handicapped nose-picking diggers from the Helping Hands Special People Daycare Asylum and Camp Special Time have been such wonderful guests here, Yet, we began noting some things that just weren't kosher. The food you have been eating here was finally noted to be unfitting for human consumption after our pre-dinner 'special' guests left this eatery.
    Do you ever peak into Finnegans Wake?

    Here Comes Everyone!

    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post

    2 B CONTINUED
    2 B continued? OK.

    3 C

    How's that?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
    Hey ho Timmy...


    Do you ever peak into Finnegans Wake?

    Here Comes Everyone!


    2 B continued? OK.

    3 C

    How's that?
    Howya' Big Kahuna an' top o' the mornin' to ya' and the lady birdGreets Rose,

    Me cut ne crk that HCE be Humongus Cranial Explosion, yeah?
    YaNah...yah' know?

    Bollocks! Lady Bird n you kin' wait but gobshite the babby tots, eh?
    Ole buck Tim awakes indeed, so while m' slash in me jacks, here's to yer intermission gaze.

    Me hopes ta' be right back...if not,
    keep the fires hot
    'fore we dance a jig ta' pek
    aft' i pull up me socks
    and see wat e'er betides the day.



    Cheery ho!

    Tim

    3C ?
    Yeah yeah
    Last edited by Timmy; 02-18-2013 at 08:50 AM.
    The mind grows by taking in
    :Mesiras Nefesh:
    THE HEART GROWS BY GIVING OUT

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi Timmy,

    I AM LISTENING...to all the wonderful sounds of nature, BUT what I also hear are the horrendous sounds of natural disasters that kill hundreds of thousands of people What is God saying then?

    Rose
    Hi Rose,

    You do not have to accept this, yet this is my answer, and it is not my answer, as this is the answer of my Master,--who has put me in my place a time or two hundred plus--in my own words,--but what about yours--yet these are not my own:
    Yeshua Ha'Mashiach Jesus TheChrist told us, transmitted via Yochanan John and now Timmy:
    I Am the door.
    If anyone enters in by me, he shall be delivered, restored, and preserved;
    And will go in and out [The Door of the sheepfold]
    And find pasture. (5.34/Ps. 23.2)
    The thief only comes to rip-you-off, kill, and destroy.
    I have come that they [the sheep] may have life and abundant life at that.
    I Am the good shepherd.
    The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.


    Ummmm..,

    Timmy


    ...and Richard, are you so staunce in your opinion that you are immovable from your apparent Deistic Naturalism, that you need look no further? What about all the things men or their knowledge (aka:sciences) still cannot explain or all the past errors based on what past intellectually reasonable have misconjectured?

    Does God have to fit into the way you think He is or how you assume Him to be in order to be God? Ya' know, the scribes and pharisees sought from Jesus a sign, even though there were too many given to recount, says John. Jesus told.those knowledgable religious leaders that no.sign shall be given but what?

    ...and since you think you might be figuring everything out according to your plans, i'll leave you to your frenetics, a word from the prophet Yeshua is referred to and appeals through the most, and a song or two...for the moment.

    "From of old, nobody has heard or even perceived with the ear, nor eye has seen a God besides you, who acts for those who wait for him." (Isaiah 64.4)


    Last edited by Timmy; 02-16-2013 at 05:49 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Hi Rose,

    You do not have to accept this, yet this is my answer, and it is not my answer, as this is the answer of my Master,--who has put me in my place a time or two hundred plus--in my own words,--but what about yours--yet these are not my own:
    Yeshua Ha'Mashiach Jesus TheChrist told us, transmitted via Yochanan John and now Timmy:
    I Am the door.
    If anyone enters in by me, he shall be delivered, restored, and preserved;
    And will go in and out [The Door of the sheepfold]
    And find pasture. (5.34/Ps. 23.2)
    The thief only comes to rip-you-off, kill, and destroy.
    I have come that they [the sheep] may have life and abundant life at that.
    I Am the good shepherd.
    The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.


    Ummmm..,

    Timmy
    Hello Timmy,

    The answer of your master...found in the pages of Scripture, whose authorship is that of primitive men. It says the thief comes to kill and destroy, yet your master allows this thief to run rampant amongst men. Your master says that he has come to give mankind abundant life, yet at every turn he allows life to be taken away in the most horrendous fashion, when only a word from his mouth would bring forth legions of angels. How can I trust his words?

    Is the green pastures which are found through his door enough to comfort those whose loved ones are suffering in eternal torment by his hand, merely because they missed the door? Where is his justice?

    Somehow your answer leaves me with a sense of bewilderment...what does it mean to lay down ones life for another? Jesus tells us that his father loved him because he was obedient and laid down his life...would there have been no fatherly love if Jesus had not laid down his life?

    Much to think about...


    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
    Does God have to fit into the way you think He is or how you assume Him to be in order to be God? Ya' know, the scribes and pharisees sought from Jesus a sign, even though there were too many given to recount, says John. Jesus told.those knowledgable religious leaders that no.sign shall be given but what?

    ...and since you think you might be figuring everything out according to your plans, i'll leave you to your frenetics, a word from the prophet Yeshua is referred to and appeals through the most, and a song or two...for the moment.

    "From of old, nobody has heard or even perceived with the ear, nor eye has seen a God besides you, who acts for those who wait for him." (Isaiah 64.4)


    Do you not realize the perception you have of god is solely derived from the Bible? You have built your conception of the creator of the universe upon the writings of primitive men whose mindset imagined a male warrior god able to protect them and fight their battles. Richard and I are only describing to you the god that is presented to us in Scripture...where else should we find out about his attributes?

    Keep pursuing the truth,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  9. #9
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    Hi Rose,

    I have been thinking about your answer to Timmy, and can see how far you have moved away from trusting that the written word of God is a secure foundation for understanding things seen and unseen. While you are lining up with the one who first questioned God's word (Hath God said you shall surely die?), you are proving and establishing that you yourself are bound by everything the Bible says about fallen man.

    God has put His attributes in His creation, which if you are willing to let them speak to you, will direct you back to Him. The introduction of mind-games (philosophies, like those to which the serpent introduced Eve and Adam) will only perpetuate your bewilderment. Paul explains the demise of those who choose not to accommodate truth which is staring them in the face from both God and creation, in Romans 1. He declares all those who engage in abominations, and even those whom God gave over to reprobation, as worthy of death. And then he asks the all-time non-rhetorical question:
    'Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?'

    So we learn that even for those who 'knew God', there is a way back from the brink of destruction. This might be summed up (by me) as the third chance. The first chance, is to acknowledge God and worship Him right from the start. The second chance is to start accommodating truth about Him before He gives you over to the consequences of your rebellion - which can sometimes mean that He leaves you to rot and is impervious to your prayers. The third chance is to test whether repentance is still open to you by repenting with real repentance - which some say is a gift from Him.

    One thing might make that more difficult. That is, if you have become implaccable; so that not even God's great and loving kindness in giving you a last chance saloon, will induce you to humble yourself and seek real contrition. What is so sad to watch, as you and Richard risk your souls eternal well-being fo the sake of exploring sin in greater measure than you ever did before you were 'Christians', is that both of you sound less and less as if you actually care about truth anymore, at all. Yet Jesus Christ said, 'I am the Truth', and in Him are all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

    If reading about the Flood through which Noah was saved, and the death of Christ on the cross is not enough to convince you that God cares for man far more than man is capable of caring for God unless He changes our hearts (old hearts for new hearts), then you have begun to lose the plot, or, you never quite had the plot in the first place - which is entirely possible. Many who think they are Christians have never really grappled with God Himself until they can say like Jacob that they've met Him face-to-face, and live. It's a moot point that Jacob did not 'win' the wrestling, but was overcome by Him who overcomes, thus being given his new name, Israel - God prevails. Unless you become willing to be prevailed over by God (to be blessed by Him), the day will come when you are prevailed over by Him to be condemned.

    Hebrews 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

    Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

    Acts 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

    Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    Acts 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. 40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; 41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

    2 Corinthians 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.



    Truth is an absolute which, when you encounter it, you have to capacity to recognise. From that moment on, you are held accountable. Of course, we are all being held accountable for what we are sowing or building and we will all be tried by fire (death). Just because a person sins delicately, or in a culturally acceptable way, doesn't mean they will escape final testing. God has never been culturally sensitive to man's preferences. On the contrary, the culture He's sensitive about is the one He designed for His creation, which He redeemed with His own blood.

    Genesis 11:6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

    You can't fault the Lord's desire to have fellowship with mankind, and His general resistance to mankind settling for fellowship with itself. That is a plain evidence of the effect of the fall on Adam's descendants. They wanted to get to God their own way.

    Interesting, isn't it, that the serpent told only half the truth to Adam and Eve? He lied about them not dying, viz, he didn't tell them that once they became 'as gods knowing good and evil', God would not permit them to live for ever; and didn't warn that they would be separated from Him.

    2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Coming to a knowledge of the truth, necessarily means ceasing from eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and starting to eat of the tree of life.

    You know that 'God our Saviour; 4 ... will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.' 1 Timothy 2.

    Psalm 69:19 Thou hast known my reproach, and my shame, and my dishonour:
    mine adversaries are all before thee.
    20 Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness:
    and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none;
    and for comforters, but I found none.
    21 They gave me also gall for my meat;
    and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

    22 Let their table become a snare before them:
    and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.
    23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not;
    and make their loins continually to shake.
    24 Pour out thine indignation upon them,
    and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.
    25 Let their habitation be desolate;
    and let none dwell in their tents.
    26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten;
    and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
    27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity:
    and let them not come into thy righteousness.
    28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living,
    and not be written with the righteous.




    Despite the fact that resurrection is mentioned unmistakably in scripture many times, many people pretend to themselves it won't happen because they don't want to think about it. That's called self-deception. Self-deception follows after the person has colluded with deception.

    Don't be one of those. Think about it. Why waste eternity on ephemeral philosophies?

    Be smarter than that, and let God bless you (forever).
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi Rose,

    I have been thinking about your answer to Timmy, and can see how far you have moved away from trusting that the written word of God is a secure foundation for understanding things seen and unseen. While you are lining up with the one who first questioned God's word (Hath God said you shall surely die?), you are proving and establishing that you yourself are bound by everything the Bible says about fallen man.
    Hi Charisma,

    What makes you think the Bible is the written word of god? Why should I trust in an ancient book written by primitive men who saw nothing wrong with denying women equal rights and treating them like property? Besides that, the god these primitive men created was as biased against women and girls as they were.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    God has put His attributes in His creation, which if you are willing to let them speak to you, will direct you back to Him. The introduction of mind-games (philosophies, like those to which the serpent introduced Eve and Adam) will only perpetuate your bewilderment. Paul explains the demise of those who choose not to accommodate truth which is staring them in the face from both God and creation, in Romans 1. He declares all those who engage in abominations, and even those whom God gave over to reprobation, as worthy of death. And then he asks the all-time non-rhetorical question:
    'Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?'
    Among the attributes of god described in the Bible are vengeance, jealousy, retribution and judgment. These qualities are manifest in very negative ways in humans and have led men to do horrendous things in the name of god.

    In my opinion Paul is not trustworthy. He is a typical man of his time period who blamed the mythological figure Eve for causing mankind to fall into sin, thus justifying his belief that women should be in subjugation to men.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    So we learn that even for those who 'knew God', there is a way back from the brink of destruction. This might be summed up (by me) as the third chance. The first chance, is to acknowledge God and worship Him right from the start. The second chance is to start accommodating truth about Him before He gives you over to the consequences of your rebellion - which can sometimes mean that He leaves you to rot and is impervious to your prayers. The third chance is to test whether repentance is still open to you by repenting with real repentance - which some say is a gift from Him.
    If there is a creator god it certainly is not the god of the Bible. The god described in the pages of Scripture is a gender biased, misogynistic tyrant who demands worship and praise at the expense of the well being of humans. Why should I put myself in bondage to the ideas of primitive Bronze Age men, who thought that women were inferior to them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    One thing might make that more difficult. That is, if you have become implaccable; so that not even God's great and loving kindness in giving you a last chance saloon, will induce you to humble yourself and seek real contrition. What is so sad to watch, as you and Richard risk your souls eternal well-being fo the sake of exploring sin in greater measure than you ever did before you were 'Christians', is that both of you sound less and less as if you actually care about truth anymore, at all. Yet Jesus Christ said, 'I am the Truth', and in Him are all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
    I fail to see the loving kindness in the actions of a god who would decree that women be treated in such an immoral and abusive manner. There can be no love in a god who orders the slaughter of innocent women and children while commanding that NO MERCY be shown to them.

    It is because Richard and I care so much about truth that we could no longer believe the lie that the Bible is the word of god. The minute we opened our eyes to the truth it became clear that the Bible is no more than the ideas of primitive men who posited a god to account for what they couldn't understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    If reading about the Flood through which Noah was saved, and the death of Christ on the cross is not enough to convince you that God cares for man far more than man is capable of caring for God unless He changes our hearts (old hearts for new hearts), then you have begun to lose the plot, or, you never quite had the plot in the first place - which is entirely possible. Many who think they are Christians have never really grappled with God Himself until they can say like Jacob that they've met Him face-to-face, and live. It's a moot point that Jacob did not 'win' the wrestling, but was overcome by Him who overcomes, thus being given his new name, Israel - God prevails. Unless you become willing to be prevailed over by God (to be blessed by Him), the day will come when you are prevailed over by Him to be condemned.
    The Flood story does no more then tell me that the biblical god is a genocidal maniac who thinks the solution to every problem is bloodshed, including the human sacrifice of his own son. Doesn't sound very loving or long suffering to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Interesting, isn't it, that the serpent told only half the truth to Adam and Eve? He lied about them not dying, viz, he didn't tell them that once they became 'as gods knowing good and evil', God would not permit them to live for ever; and didn't warn that they would be separated from Him.
    What I think is interesting is that you don't realize the whole Garden story of Adam, Eve and the serpent is just an ancient mythological tale.

    Take care,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

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