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Thread: Sarah's Key

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ps 27:1 View Post
    You just have to think poetically



    Lame is correct on both accounts. 01 Not = 0, 10 not = 0



    Maybe you're looking at it from the wrong angle or angel.

    Steve
    Or maybe you haven't given good clues.

    Time to spill your beans mate.

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    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
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  2. #22
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    Hi Steve and Richard

    I thought this might have been solved by now. I have been waiting for Richard to come up with the answer. I am not sure I have the answer and I do not have an alternative magic square. Should I be looking for one?

    Steve said he gave us a clue at the beginning and the only thing that is buzzing in my brain at the moment is that 0 (zero) is not a digit.
    a home for the 0 digit?
    Steve has said it; the 0 (zero) or no digit . We do not have a 'zero' finger (digit). Zero is the absence of digits. When you remove all the digits from the magic square, you have an abscene of digits; hence zero.

    In the hexadecimal system (1 to 16) the digit 10 is represented by the letter A

    Can this be the answer to the puzzle or getting to the truth of the puzzle?

    David
    Last edited by David M; 02-01-2012 at 07:11 AM.

  3. #23
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    Riddles have to be purposely vague in order for there to be anything to "figure out". When it was said "wouldn't it be nice to find a home for the zero" the first inclination is to be limited by the appearance of the "magic square" and thinking that the "home" for the zero had to fit in the grid of the square somehow. The riddle doesn't say that this is required. The statement about how the cat in the hat would catch a fox made me wonder if the cat in the hat would like to catch a fox in a box? Maybe the zero is behind each of the numbers in a dimension of depth? Thus turning the square into a box? Or maybe it is just just behind the center number, 5? A turtle shell is curved and that is how this "square" supposedly got started. 5 + 0 = 5 is the same as 505?

    Or ...... Maybe the square is actually cut along all the lines radiating out from the center square and you fold the other squares back (or forward) 90 degrees and form a box with an open back (or front)? That way you have "nothing" or "zero" in the box.
    Last edited by Silence; 02-01-2012 at 12:34 PM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silence View Post
    Riddles have to be purposely vague in order for there to be anything to "figure out".
    Yes!

    When it was said "wouldn't it be nice to find a home for the zero" the first inclination is to be limited by the appearance of the "magic square" and thinking that the "home" for the zero had to fit in the grid of the square somehow.
    Yes!

    The riddle doesn't say that this is required.
    Yes!

    The statement about how the cat in the hat would catch a fox made me wonder if the cat in the hat would like to catch a fox in a box?
    You would have made Dr. Seuss proud. I thought that clue was a dead give away.

    Maybe the zero is behind each of the numbers in a dimension of depth? Thus turning the square into a box?
    Now you're cookin'.

    Or maybe it is just just behind the center number, 5?
    Define behind, because couldn't it also be in front of the 5? Maybe "enclosed" would be better.

    A turtle shell is curved and that is how this "square" supposedly got started.
    Maybe, who knows.

    5 + 0 = 5 is the same as 505?
    Careful now. Look at my avatar. There are two images of the same Sarah separated by time and space. If not familiar with the movie go here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah's_Key

    Not only that, but Julia, played by Kristin Scott-Thomas, is pregnant with a girl who she names Sarah. We use zero as 3 main functions: To indicate there being none of a certain item. To assist in place value. To show location in a coordinate system.

    Sarah's name = 505. She laughed because she knew her time of fertility was up.

    Gen 18:11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
    Gen 18:12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?

    She was "dried up" so to speak inside, just like all of us are before we are born again. We are the zero inside that box.
    Instead of thinking outside the box, maybe we need to be in the box.
    http://www.google.com/imgres?q=four+...429,r:12,s:209

    I thought this was definitely going to give it away.

    How serendipitous that silence solved the first part of the riddle. Good job!

    For those who may object on the use of 4 magic squares, remember, I said there was only one unique solution, the others are reflections or rotations.

    Round 2

    Steve
    May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer. Ps 19:14 (NIV)

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ps 27:1 View Post
    Yes!



    Yes!



    Yes!



    You would have made Dr. Seuss proud. I thought that clue was a dead give away.



    Now you're cookin'.



    Define behind, because couldn't it also be in front of the 5? Maybe "enclosed" would be better.



    Maybe, who knows.



    Careful now. Look at my avatar. There are two images of the same Sarah separated by time and space. If not familiar with the movie go here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah's_Key

    Not only that, but Julia, played by Kristin Scott-Thomas, is pregnant with a girl who she names Sarah. We use zero as 3 main functions: To indicate there being none of a certain item. To assist in place value. To show location in a coordinate system.

    Sarah's name = 505. She laughed because she knew her time of fertility was up.

    Gen 18:11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
    Gen 18:12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?

    She was "dried up" so to speak inside, just like all of us are before we are born again. We are the zero inside that box.
    Instead of thinking outside the box, maybe we need to be in the box.
    http://www.google.com/imgres?q=four+...429,r:12,s:209

    I thought this was definitely going to give it away.

    How serendipitous that silence solved the first part of the riddle. Good job!

    For those who may object on the use of 4 magic squares, remember, I said there was only one unique solution, the others are reflections or rotations.

    Round 2

    Steve
    So the answer to the riddle is to put myself in the middle, boxed in by four 3 x 3 magic squares?

    Great. That was very enlightening .... NOT.

    Excuse me if I don't pursue your riddles anymore. They are too idiosyncratic and don't generate any "aha" moment even when the answer is plainly stated.

    I would be happy to engage you in normal discourse where folks say what they mean if you are so inclined.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  6. #26
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    Looks like I was typing my "Edit" with the guess about folding the square up into a box while you were posting your response. I hadn't even thought about having 4 squares to work with. I have to go to work now, so I won't have time to look up the story behind Sarah's key til tomorrow.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ps 27:1 View Post
    How serendipitous that silence solved the first part of the riddle. Good job!

    For those who may object on the use of 4 magic squares, remember, I said there was only one unique solution, the others are reflections or rotations.

    Round 2

    Steve
    Could you please quote the exact words that silence wrote that "solved" your riddle? I read his post and your response, and didn't see anywhere that silence actually stated it.

    And why doesn't your "home" for the observer (which you call the "zero") not have a floor and a roof? Why didn't you use six magic squares rather than four?

    And why do you identify the observer with the number zero?

    And what does this have to do with Sarah = 505?

    I don't see how your "clues" pointed to the solution you are offering.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Could you please quote the exact words that silence wrote that "solved" your riddle? I read his post and your response, and didn't see anywhere that silence actually stated it.
    "Technically, you're correct. But he was close enough. The idea was to look beyond 2 dimensions.

    And why doesn't your "home" for the observer (which you call the "zero") not have a floor and a roof? Why didn't you use six magic squares rather than four?
    Think of a Rubik's cube 8 feet tall with one side flat on the ground. Four people approach it, each to a different vertical face. They each see the 3x3 magic square. Two of them are reflections of the other two which are identical but facing in opposite directions. There are 4 squares, but only one unique or parent square. You could put a roof and floor on my riddle but then we would have at least two problems: The symmetry would be messed up. (There is no perfect 3x3x3 magic cube) And we would have a conundrum.

    Nothing could get out and since 0 is nothing, we have a dilemma. Of course, by not having a roof, something could get out, but that wouldn't be nothing, now would it?


    And why do you identify the observer with the number zero?
    That was a tangent. Sorry.

    And what does this have to do with Sarah = 505? I don't see how your "clues" pointed to the solution you are offering.
    5's on opposite faces with some space between. The idea was to hint at 3-D and I did mention the 3x3x3 cube. There are some interesting "coincidences" with this cube arrangement.

    Home --> house. 505 ---> 0 between the 5's meaning more than one 5. My avatar ---> space, time, reflection, 2 Sarahs to go along with the 2 5's.
    Cat in hat ----> fox in box (even the o is in the middle)

    Remember, this is just a fun riddle, not some grand mathematical theorem.

    The second part about finding the PI string does not involve any "trickery", I think.

    Steve
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    Last edited by Ps 27:1; 02-01-2012 at 08:59 PM.
    May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer. Ps 19:14 (NIV)

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ps 27:1 View Post
    "Technically, you're correct. But he was close enough. The idea was to look beyond 2 dimensions.
    Yeah, I can see that. His "fox in the box" hit the bullseye.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ps 27:1 View Post
    Think of a Rubik's cube 8 feet tall with one side flat on the ground. Four people approach it, each to a different vertical face. They each see the 3x3 magic square. Two of them are reflections of the other two which are identical but facing in opposite directions. There are 4 squares, but only one unique or parent square. You could put a roof and floor on my riddle but then we would have at least two problems: The symmetry would be messed up. (There is no perfect 3x3x3 magic cube) And we would have a conundrum.

    Nothing could get out and since 0 is nothing, we have a dilemma. Of course, by not having a roof, something could get out, but that wouldn't be nothing, now would it?
    Well, I still don't see what's so "nice" about that "home" for the zero. What does it really add to our understanding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ps 27:1 View Post
    That was a tangent. Sorry.
    No worries!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ps 27:1 View Post
    5's on opposite faces with some space between. The idea was to hint at 3-D and I did mention the 3x3x3 cube. There are some interesting "coincidences" with this cube arrangement.

    Home --> house. 505 ---> 0 between the 5's meaning more than one 5. My avatar ---> space, time, reflection, 2 Sarahs to go along with the 2 5's.
    Cat in hat ----> fox in box (even the o is in the middle)

    Remember, this is just a fun riddle, not some grand mathematical theorem.

    The second part about finding the PI string does not involve any "trickery", I think.

    Steve
    Thanks for the answers. I can see your thought process, though there is no clue in the name "Sarah" per se since it was only the numeric value that you were using.

    The form of 505 matches you solution, but only in hindsight. My solution of a 5 x 5 square of zeros with the 3 x 3 magic square centered to give a wall of 16 zeros surrounding fits with that number too.

    But "fox in a box" was pretty good!

    As for an "algrithm" to list out the number 3142 from the square, the simplest is probably "list out the numbers 3142 from the square." That's probabily the smallest string that would satisfy you demands, and if so it would technically be the answer to your riddle. It will be interesting to see if your algorythm can be expressed in a shorter string.

    Have a great day.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #30
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    Steve

    There is only one unique solution to the 3x3 magic square. Since we have 10 fingers (digita = Latin), wouldn't it be nice to find a home for the 0 digit? Tell me where you think is the best place for the 0 in relation to the other nine and why.

    I have read and waited to the end for the solution and I am as confused with your solution as I was at the beginning with the problem. Sorry if I am thick in understanding the solution to your problem, that is assuming a sloution exists. There does not have to be a connection with the 9 unary system which is a subset of the decimal system conforming to the number of our fingers (digits). As you know our tenth digit is a single object but in the decimal system is representd by two symbols; 1 and 0 where 0 is a symbol and not a digit. I expect there is a convention for for numbering the fingers on the hand replacing left hand with one set of digit numbers and right hand with another set of digit numbers and replacing the index finger or thumb identification etc. for a number.

    Your solution to me looks like fitting a square peg into a round hole, except this time, you fitted a round peg/shaft into a square hole. I cannot help myself recalling an expression which the more crude would use to say what has been done.

    If I am truly missing something here, I can only ask for my eyes to be opened. Like the man whose child was healed by Jesus. 'Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief'.
    The man saw and believed what he saw, but he did not understand how the healing had been done.

    Our desire for more and more depth of understanding gives rise to our unbelief i.e. our lack of understanding. I know this is true for me as there are so many things that I do not have the answer to. Yet I can settle for the obvious truths which God has revealed to us plainly and by which the wise manage to confound themselves. As Jesus said; I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

    And as the Apostle Paul says; But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;


    I look forward to more enlightenment.


    David
    Last edited by David M; 02-04-2012 at 11:28 AM.

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