# Thread: Sarah's Key

1. Originally Posted by Ps 27:1
In spite of the fact that I have been euphemistically called eccentric and labeled a narcissist, you might like the answer.
We'll see ... I hope it doesn't make me groan too much ...

Originally Posted by Ps 27:1
You're getting warmer, but, no.

Steve
No? Hummm ... warmer ... guess I'll have to sleep on it.

And the "algorithm that uses all the magic square" is ambiguous. Does it mean "uses all 9 digits" or is it referring to using the square itself?

The riddles itself is a riddle!

2. Originally Posted by RAM
We'll see ... I hope it doesn't make me groan too much ...
I hope so, too. Otherwise, I've just wasted a bunch of your time.

And the "algorithm that uses all the magic square" is ambiguous. Does it mean "uses all 9 digits" or is it referring to using the square itself?
Aawwh, come on. All good riddles are ambiguous. Are you trying to get me to spill the beans?

It least it's not as bad as this:

Jdg 14:12 And Samson said unto them, I will now put forth a riddle unto you: if ye can certainly declare it me within the seven days of the feast, and find it out, then I will give you thirty sheets and thirty change of garments:
Jdg 14:13 But if ye cannot declare it me, then shall ye give me thirty sheets and thirty change of garments. And they said unto him, Put forth thy riddle, that we may hear it.
Jdg 14:14 And he said unto them, Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of the strong came forth sweetness. And they could not in three days expound the riddle.

Now that is ambiguous.

The riddles itself is a riddle!
Okay, don't beat that to death.

Looking back, I see that I have unitentionally give away several clues.

Steve

3. Originally Posted by Ps 27:1
This may be an ever expanding mathematical riddle. You solve one, we get to move on to the next level.

The history of the 3x3 magic square goes way back. Chinese legends concerning the pre-historic Emperor Yu (夏禹) tell of the Lo Shu, often in connection with the Ho Tu (河圖) figure and 8 trigrams. In ancient China there was a huge deluge: the people offered sacrifices to the god of one of the flooding rivers, the Lo river (洛水), to try to calm his anger. A magical turtle emerged from the water with the curious and decidedly unnatural (for a turtle shell) Lo Shu pattern on its shell: circular dots giving unary (base 1) representations of the integers one through nine are arranged in a three-by-three grid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lo_Shu

There is only one unique solution to the 3x3 magic square. Since we have 10 fingers (digita = Latin), wouldn't it be nice to find a home for the 0 digit? Tell me where you think is the best place for the 0 in relation to the other nine and why.

Happy sleuthing,
Steve
I would say the best place for the 0 is in the middle, because then all the numbers add up to 10 instead of 15 and we still have a magic square.

Rose

4. Originally Posted by Ps 27:1
I hope so, too. Otherwise, I've just wasted a bunch of your time.

Aawwh, come on. All good riddles are ambiguous. Are you trying to get me to spill the beans?

Looking back, I see that I have unitentionally give away several clues.
Well, you might think you have given clues, but that's not so clear to me. Here is how you stated your riddle:
There is only one unique solution to the 3x3 magic square. Since we have 10 fingers (digita = Latin), wouldn't it be nice to find a home for the 0 digit? Tell me where you think is the best place for the 0 in relation to the other nine and why.
And then when I asked for a clue, you said you had already given one, meaning of course, the original riddle.

The association between fingers and digits is well known. So maybe you are playing around and suggesting that I need to make a zero with my thumb and forefinger?

But then you added the "clue" about giving the zero a "home." I reversed that and made the zero the home for the square, but you nixed that.

So if you don't want to give any clues, then you might as well "spill the beans." You say that you have given other clues, but I find that very hard to believe looking over your posts. So please state the "several clues" that you have given.

Thanks!

5. Originally Posted by Rose
I would say the best place for the 0 is in the middle, because then all the numbers add up to 10 instead of 15 and we still have a magic square.

Rose
Hi Rose! In a true magic square, all the columns, rows, and 2 diagonals must sum the same. But you're not too far off.

Steve

6. Originally Posted by RAM
Well, you might think you have given clues, but that's not so clear to me. Here is how you stated your riddle:
There is only one unique solution to the 3x3 magic square. Since we have 10 fingers (digita = Latin), wouldn't it be nice to find a home for the 0 digit? Tell me where you think is the best place for the 0 in relation to the other nine and why.
And then when I asked for a clue, you said you had already given one, meaning of course, the original riddle.

The association between fingers and digits is well known. So maybe you are playing around and suggesting that I need to make a zero with my thumb and forefinger?

Good one! I hadn't thought about that, but, no.

So if you don't want to give any clues, then you might as well "spill the beans." You say that you have given other clues, but I find that very hard to believe looking over your posts. So please state the "several clues" that you have given.
Where's the smiley for having your arm twisted? Partypooper

Alrighty then.

Clue #1 from post #60 in my original thread.

Originally Posted by Ps 27:1
One of things I was working on last year was the 3x3 magic square. 505 was the key for me to see deeper riddles in the magic square and the 3x3x3 cube. More about that in another thread. Sarah = 505 (Hebrew).
Clue #2 My avatar.

Clue #3 "Wouldn't it be nice to find a home for the 0 digit?

Thanks!
You're welcome.

with sore arm,
Steve

7. Originally Posted by Ps 27:1
Where's the smiley for having your arm twisted? Partypooper

Alrighty then.

Clue #1 from post #60 in my original thread.
One of things I was working on last year was the 3x3 magic square. 505 was the key for me to see deeper riddles in the magic square and the 3x3x3 cube. More about that in another thread. Sarah = 505 (Hebrew).
Clue #2 My avatar.

Clue #3 "Wouldn't it be nice to find a home for the 0 digit?
You have a curious concept of "clues" if you expected me to go rummaging through old posts in a different thread!

And you clue #2 is just a reference to clue #1 which was hidden in a different thread, so I wouldn't say it "counts" either.

But now that I have your set of clues, I will make another couple guesses. Your emphasis on 505 made me wonder if you are thinking of taking a 5 x 5 square of zeros and putting the 3 x 3 magic square inside it so that there would be a square of zeros as a border. It wouldn't be part of the magic square, of course, since the outer rows and columns would add to zero.

Or maybe you think we should draw zero around the 5 in the center. You might think that is "hinted at" somehow in the number 505.

Getting any closer?

8. Originally Posted by RAM
You have a curious concept of "clues" if you expected me to go rummaging through old posts in a different thread!

And you clue #2 is just a reference to clue #1 which was hidden in a different thread, so I wouldn't say it "counts" either.

But now that I have your set of clues, I will make another couple guesses. Your emphasis on 505 made me wonder if you are thinking of taking a 5 x 5 square of zeros and putting the 3 x 3 magic square inside it so that there would be a square of zeros as a border. It wouldn't be part of the magic square, of course, since the outer rows and columns would add to zero.

Or maybe you think we should draw zero around the 5 in the center. You might think that is "hinted at" somehow in the number 505.

Getting any closer?
Answers: First one, no. Second one, you're in the proximity. So close and yet so far.

Everything you need to know is in clues 2 and 3. I thought clue 1 would just give it away. Apparently not.. Remember the rope trick and how the students were stumped because they made a false assumption? I chose my words very carefully. Read them again.

There is only one unique solution to the 3x3 magic square. Since we have 10 fingers (digita = Latin), wouldn't it be nice to find a home for the 0 digit? Tell me where you think is the best place for the 0 in relation to the other nine and why.
Clue #4 What would the cat in the hat do to catch the fox?

Steve
Last edited by Ps 27:1; 01-30-2012 at 10:20 PM.

9. Originally Posted by Ps 27:1
Answers: First one, no. Second one, you're in the proximity. So close and yet so far.

Everything you need to know is in clues 2 and 3. I thought clue 1 would just give it away. Apparently not.. Remember the rope trick and how the students were stumped because they made a false assumption? I chose my words very carefully. Read them again.

Clue #4 What would the cat in the hat do to catch the fox?

Steve
Well, I don't remember any of the specifics of the Cat in the Hat, so if I had to guess I would say that he caught the fox with his magic hat.

And your clues #2 and #3? Sarah, 505, a home (place) for the zero? Well, "place" in this context might mean "place value" which is how decimal notation works, so maybe you are thinking of prepending a zero to each of the numbers in the magic square. 01, 02, 03 etc. But that seems kinda lame. Or maybe you think we should multiply everything by 10 to make a magic square that sums to 150. That way we get a "place" for zero in every square. But this seems pretty lame too.

So I don't feel any closer to understanding your riddle.

But you do have me curious!

10. Originally Posted by RAM
Well, I don't remember any of the specifics of the Cat in the Hat, so if I had to guess I would say that he caught the fox with his magic hat.
You just have to think poetically

And your clues #2 and #3? Sarah, 505, a home (place) for the zero? Well, "place" in this context might mean "place value" which is how decimal notation works, so maybe you are thinking of prepending a zero to each of the numbers in the magic square. 01, 02, 03 etc. But that seems kinda lame. Or maybe you think we should multiply everything by 10 to make a magic square that sums to 150. That way we get a "place" for zero in every square. But this seems pretty lame too.
Lame is correct on both accounts. 01 Not = 0, 10 not = 0

So I don't feel any closer to understanding your riddle.
Maybe you're looking at it from the wrong angle or angel.

Steve

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