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  1. #11
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    Post Reconciling Sun and Moon

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    I am no closer to understanding why the "sun and moon" needed reconciling. And I still find it difficult to use the language or reconciliation (which I associate with salvation through the blood of Christ) to talk about some incommensurate temporal cycles of two heavenly bodies.
    If you consider an analogy - that God's Son - Jesus Christ - has ALL light and his bride is as the MOON - having no light of her own - only that of the Son - then I would say that the moon is in the state of being reconciled. In

    Rev 12:1 (79 / 22nd prime TAV/the cross) Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.

    Her 'feet' (walking in the Word) are shod with the peace of the gospel. She now only reflects the gospel light of the sun/Son having been reconciled to her husband (Son).

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by shalag View Post
    If you consider an analogy - that God's Son - Jesus Christ - has ALL light and his bride is as the MOON - having no light of her own - only that of the Son - then I would say that the moon is in the state of being reconciled. In

    Rev 12:1 (79 / 22nd prime TAV/the cross) Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.

    Her 'feet' (walking in the Word) are shod with the peace of the gospel. She now only reflects the gospel light of the sun/Son having been reconciled to her husband (Son).
    That's an excellent point. It works for me because it uses the symbols of the sun and moon in a sense that I can understand from the Bible.

    The Church/Bride is indeed represented by the Moon which reflects the Light of Her Lord, whose face shines like the sun in all his strength, for indeed, He is the true Light of the World.

    Well said!

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    http://www.parsha.net/Devarim/YomKipur62.doc
    Rabbi Ami taught: "The numerical value of the word haSatan in Hebrew, meaning 'the Satan' is 364 (heh=5, shin=300, tet=9, nun=50, for a total of 364)." Explains the Ran: "The days of the solar year are 365; there is one day where the Satan has no permission to do his thing; that day is Yom Kippur" (Nedarim, 32a).
    Adam is said to be created on the first day of Tishri, Jewish New Year.

    Yom Kippur is on the tenth day of Tishri.

    the clue of this midrash must be the fact that the sixth day of creation in fact was already the seventh.
    Hey silvius,

    When you say "in fact" do you mean that the "sixth day" of creation was literally the seventh day? Isn't that a little confusing? Ands doesn't it mess with our understanding of the plain sense of Scripture?

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    in the account of the seventh day, Genesis 2:1-3, there is no mentioning of "and it was evening and it was morning, (the) seventh day".

    the name of God, the Tetragrammaton, is hidden in the beginletters of the last two words of Genesis 1:31 and the first two words of Genesis 2:1,
    "yom hashishi vaychulu hashamyim", in this way joining together the sixth and the seventh day, making them one day (or (new) "day one" - a work that Jesus completed on the cross.)

    the letter "hei" of "hashishi" seeming to be superfluous.

    the other day-indications do without "hei".

    it is: day one-second day, third day, fourth day, fifth day, and then: the sixth day.
    Why do you say the hei seems to be "superfluous"? It doesn't seem that way at all to me. It makes perfect sense that God marks the end of the six day sequence by marking the sixth day by saying Yom Ha-shishi. Makes it defnite. It sounds good, complete, final, well delineated, nicely stated.

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    without "hei" the name of God would not be present there. (the name of God doesn't further appear in the first story of creation.)
    True, and I understand you because you have been trying to share this idea with me for a long time. But other readers of the forum might not follow the idea. It would be very helpful, for you as much as anyone else I would say, to take a little time to write the whole idea in a way a person could follow it from beginning to end. With reasons and explanations to connect the dots, and all that.

    In fact, now that I think about it, we are pretty far off from the purpose of this subforum which was put here to discuss Vernon's work. I think the thread would go a lot better in the Gematria section. Why don't you start a thread there about this topic with a name like "The Name of God and the Sixth Day" or whatever you think works, and write a really good opening post that carefully lays out your ideas. I know you really want to share this idea, because you have been showing it to me for well over a year. So this is your big chance to get a whole thread devoted to just this one idea.

    Richard

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Hey silvius,

    When you say "in fact" do you mean that the "sixth day" of creation was literally the seventh day? Isn't that a little confusing? Ands doesn't it mess with our understanding of the plain sense of Scripture?
    yes, they became one day.

    and this is Yom Kippur.
    called "sabbat of sabbats" , Leviticus16:31,
    שַׁבַּת שַׁבָּתוֹן הִיא לָכֶם


    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Why do you say the hei seems to be "superfluous"?
    it SEEMS superfluous.
    like "yom shishi" had been already enough.
    Most translations pass by the difference between "second day - third day - fourth- fifth day" and "the sixth day".
    F.e., in LXX, although Greek knows the article (Latin doens't).
    (and of course, the Name of God present in the beginletters of Hebrew "yom hashishi vaychulu hashamayim", יוֹם הַשִּׁשִּׁי וַיְכֻלּוּ הַשָּׁמַיִם, gets lost in any translation.

    there is a huge difference between "yom shishi", sixth day, and "yom hashishi", the sixth day, although the numerical difference is relatively very small ( 671 versus 666), indeed like a needles' eye, or like the little opening under the roof that differentiates the written letter "hei" from the written letter "chet", which again is like the difference between "matzah", unleavened, and "chomeitz", leavened (bread).



    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    In fact, now that I think about it, we are pretty far off from the purpose of this subforum which was put here to discuss Vernon's work.
    I did hang it on the 2701 of Genesis 1:1 and 8:14.

    But for me it is fine to place it in another section.


    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    I think the thread would go a lot better in the Gematria section.
    it is much more than just gematria.
    Last edited by sylvius; 06-11-2007 at 09:54 PM.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post

    it is much more than just gematria.
    Yes, but its also a "lot more" than "just Vernon's work", so where do you think we should have this discussion? Should I make a new subforum? What would you want it to be called?

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Yes, but its also a "lot more" than "just Vernon's work", so where do you think we should have this discussion? Should I make a new subforum? What would you want it to be called?

    what about gematria of Genesis 1:1 being "2701"?

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    what about gematria of Genesis 1:1 being "2701"?
    I thought you were trying to teach us about the hidden meaning of the Hei in Yom HaShishi. What does it have to do with Genesis 1:1 = 2701?

    You don't like the idea of a thread called "The Name of God in Genesis 1:31"?

    Or maybe "YHVH in Yom HaShishi"?

    Or "God's Name and the Sixth Day"?

    Help me out here ... explain your ideas more.

    Thanks!

    Richard

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    I thought you were trying to teach us about the hidden meaning of the Hei in Yom HaShishi. What does it have to do with Genesis 1:1 = 2701?

    You don't like the idea of a thread called "The Name of God in Genesis 1:31"?

    Or maybe "YHVH in Yom HaShishi"?

    Or "God's Name and the Sixth Day"?

    Help me out here ... explain your ideas more.

    Thanks!

    Richard

    God's Name is not in Genesis 1:31,

    but in the beginletters of the last two words of Genesis 1:31 and the first two words of Genesis 2:1,

    יוֹם הַשִּׁשִּׁי וַיְכֻלּוּ הַשָּׁמַיִם

    this has everything to do with the "2701" of Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 8:14,

    like I tried to make clear via the 365 days of the flood.

    the 365th day being the day on which Satan has no power, doesn't even exist.

    being the "yom hashishi", the sixth day, par excellence, viz. Yom Kippur.

    (note that 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 is also about this:

    Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed, in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


    since Yom Kippur is the day of the last trumpet. )

    Satan just doesn't know about God being present there.

    Satan has no idea about "yom hashishi", the sixth day.

    for him it is just "yom shishi", sixth day.

    gematria "yom shishi" 10+6+40+300+300+10 = 666

    same gematria "soter" ("samech-vav-tav-resh" = 60+6+400+200 =666).

    Hebrew "soter" = opposer, denier.

    but strange: Greek "soter" = Savior.
    Last edited by sylvius; 06-13-2007 at 09:40 AM.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    God's Name is not in Genesis 1:31,

    but in the beginletters of the last two words of Genesis 1:31 and the first two words of Genesis 2:1,
    Sorry about that, I should have been more careful and said "God's Name in Gen 1:31-2:1." But then again, you should have understood what I meant, since we have been having this conversation for quite a while. And if I wanted to be really picky, I'd tell you that God's Name YaH is in Genesis 1:31 in the first letters of Yom HaShishi. But I don't want to be that picky ....

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    this has everything to do with the "2701" of Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 8:14,
    I understand that part of your thesis involves the value of Genesis 1:1, but that's not the primary focus of what you are trying to say. That's why I think you need to start a thread with a well chosen title that accurately describes what you want to communicate. You are going well beyond the study of the alphanumeric and geometrical structure of Genesis 1:1 that characterizes Vernon's work. True, there is an overlap, but your ideas are uniquely yours and so you should start a thread of your own where you clearly state what you want to communicate and why. Doesn't that sound like a perfect opportunity? Why are you resisting it?

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    like I tried to make clear via the 365 days of the flood.

    the 365th day being the day on which Satan has no power, doesn't even exist.
    As far as I know, the idea that "Satan doesn't exist" on Yom Kippur is not taught in Bible. I understand the Jewish tradition that builds this doctrine off of the value of Satan = 364 = one less than 365 (days in the year). And this is an example of the fundamental error of Jewish tradition. It is absurd to build doctrines from gematria. It is supposed to go the other way around. The fundamental doctrines are taught in the plain text of Scripture. God is then glorified when He reveals that He designed the alphanumeric and geometric structure of the underlying text to illustrate the plain truth taught in the plain text. Case in point: The plain text of Genesis teaches that God created the cosmos in Six Days. God illustrates this with the intrinsic sixfold symmetry of numbers derived from Genesis 1:1:

    Genesis 1:1 = 2701 = 37 x 73 = Hex(4) x Star(4)

    And this is reiterated in the substructure, defined by the natural syntax of the verse:

    Genesis 1:1 = 2 x 999 + 19 x 37 = 2 x 999 + Hex(3) x Star(3)



    This reveals the glorious truth that the Bible was carefully designed by the Ultimate Artist in Word, Number, and Geometry - the Creator Himself!

    Gematria is degraded into an occult "science" when people abuse it to forge their own idiosyncratic doctrines from their fantasies.

    Please don't misunderstand me. I am not saying that Jewish tradition is all wrong. But I am saying that we need to test it in the light of Scripture, and we need to explicitly reject anything that does not pass that test, because otherwise it will be a source of error.

    Matthew 16:6 6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

    Galatians 5:9 9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

    Why do you treat rabbinic tradition as if it were authoritative? You seem to be quoting it as if you were quoting Scripture. But when you read it, do you not see that it is a mixed bag, ranging over everything from profound biblical insights to absurd and occultic fantasies? That's how it looks to me, anyway.

    But the big problem for me is that you seem to have a ratio of about 30% Scripture to 70% rabbinic tradition. That's a sure road to error in my book.

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    being the "yom hashishi", the sixth day, par excellence, viz. Yom Kippur.

    (note that 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 is also about this:

    <b>
    Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed, in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    </b>

    since Yom Kippur is the day of the last trumpet. )
    Sure, its possible that the "last day" will be on Yom Kippur, and we have a hint since trumpets are blown, and its one of the fall feast times. All very significant. But I question whether we could legitimately state that "1 Corinthians 15:51-52 is also about this" because the Bible doesn't actually say that, and many of the connections you make are based on Jewish traditions not found in the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by sylvius View Post
    Satan just doesn't know about God being present there.

    Satan has no idea about "yom hashishi", the sixth day.

    for him it is just "yom shishi", sixth day.
    How do you know what Satan does and does not know?

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Sorry about that, I should have been more careful and said "God's Name in Gen 1:31-2:1." But then again, you should have understood what I meant, since we have been having this conversation for quite a while. And if I wanted to be really picky, I'd tell you that God's Name YaH is in Genesis 1:31 in the first letters of Yom HaShishi. But I don't want to be that picky ....
    ok yes that's true!

    sorry i forgot about.


    "y-h" - has numerical value of 15.

    spelled out "yud-hei" it has numerical value of 26 (full value).

    but 26 is the (normal) numerical value of the Name "y-h-v-h" (10-5-6-5)

    so the "y-h"-part of the Name hides already the "v-h"-part of the Name.

    with "yom hashishi" creation is already completed.

    That's what Satan doesn't like at all...

    he doesn't want to know about "yom hashishi" , for him it is just "yom shishi".


    I understand that part of your thesis involves the value of Genesis 1:1, but that's not the primary focus of what you are trying to say. That's why I think you need to start a thread with a well chosen title that accurately describes what you want to communicate. You are going well beyond the study of the alphanumeric and geometrical structure of Genesis 1:1 that characterizes Vernon's work. True, there is an overlap, but your ideas are uniquely yours and so you should start a thread of your own where you clearly state what you want to communicate and why. Doesn't that sound like a perfect opportunity? Why are you resisting it?
    yes that's ok.

    split it up!


    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    It is absurd to build doctrines from gematria.
    why then Revelation 21:15,

    The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls



    It is supposed to go the other way around. The fundamental doctrines are taught in the plain text of Scripture. God is then glorified when He reveals that He designed the alphanumeric and geometric structure of the underlying text to illustrate the plain truth taught in the plain text. Case in point: The plain text of Genesis teaches that God created the cosmos in Six Days. God illustrates this with the intrinsic sixfold symmetry of numbers derived from Genesis 1:1:
    that's what you read in it.

    what about the number 216 hidden in Genesis 1:1?

    what about "nes", gematria 110 = 73 +37 ?



    This reveals the glorious truth that the Bible was carefully designed by the Ultimate Artist in Word, Number, and Geometry - the Creator Himself!
    what exactly does reveal this truth?

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Gematria is degraded into an occult "science" when people abuse it to forge their own idiosyncratic doctrines from their fantasies.
    what is wrong about fantasy?

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Please don't misunderstand me. I am not saying that Jewish tradition is all wrong. But I am saying that we need to test it in the light of Scripture, and we need to explicitly reject anything that does not pass that test, because otherwise it will be a source of error.
    what exactly is the light of scripture?

    and where you can buy it?


    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Matthew 16:6 6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
    that's nice.

    i just quoted that verse (from Mark) for you - to tell you some other truth, viz., that they don't know about the differnce between "matzah" and "chomeitz".

    Galatians 5:9 9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
    one knife-point

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Why do you treat rabbinic tradition as if it were authoritative? You seem to be quoting it as if you were quoting Scripture. But when you read it, do you not see that it is a mixed bag, ranging over everything from profound biblical insights to absurd and occultic fantasies? That's how it looks to me, anyway.
    you need a teacher.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    But the big problem for me is that you seem to have a ratio of about 30% Scripture to 70% rabbinic tradition. That's a sure road to error in my book.
    your book might be false.


    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    Sure, its possible that the "last day" will be on Yom Kippur, and we have a hint since trumpets are blown, and its one of the fall feast times. All very significant. But I question whether we could legitimately state that "1 Corinthians 15:51-52 is also about this" because the Bible doesn't actually say that, and many of the connections you make are based on Jewish traditions not found in the Bible.
    Paul tells mystery here--

    you seemingly don't like.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    The fundamental doctrines are taught in the plain text of Scripture.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM
    How do you know what Satan does and does not know?
    I deliberate daily with him.

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