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  1. #1
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    One World Religion?

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    Is this diagram accurate? Is there a unity amongst all the world religions?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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    First of all to answer the question; "Is there a unity amongst all the world religions?", the answer has to be No. I do not see unity or that there ever can be. We deceive ourselves to think that there can be. God knows the heart of man and knows that it is not in man to direct his steps. Unless, men follow the True Teaching of God, they will be lead along the wrong path that leads to destruction.

    My reasoning from God's Word is this.

    God declares on more than one occasion and very emphatically;

    Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
    6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.


    We have to serve God in sincerity and in truth.

    Joshua14 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.

    It is clear that men left to their own devices and imagination will create imaginary gods whom they proclaim and worship. This is clearly against the command of God Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

    God has revealed himself to us through the Scriptures or the Bible (the translated scriptures which have been handed down).

    In the New Covenant made in the blood of God’s one and only begotten son, Jesus proclaims;

    John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    Clearly, Jesus is saying there is only one way we can come to God (in these days of the New Covenant).

    Paul who was chosen by God to spread the Word (The Gospel) to the Gentiles after Jesus ascended into Heaven quite clearly taught that there is one God and one (true) faith and one (true) baptism.

    Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
    5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
    6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.)


    Paul is adamant that there is no other gospel that should be preached.

    Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

    Jesus accused the religious teachers of his day as not teaching the truth and teaching their own fabrications;

    Mark 7:6 Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
    7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
    8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men,


    From the words of Jesus concerning what he will find when he returns, we have this question;

    Luke 18:8 Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

    Jesus is talking about the True Faith. Have any of us got the True Faith? We cannot all have it, but we can all not have it.

    On the basis of all the above quotes from different parts of God’s Word it is clear that there should not be many religions; but there are. These are not of God’s making but of man’s own making.

    Therefore, I will continue to follow the One and only True God who has declared himself through His inspired word as the prophets were guided by God to write ithem down. I am suspicious of any other work that does not have the authenticity of God as its author.

    The Son of God (Jesus) also warns us;

    John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.


    I would be very careful about searching the works of men expecting to find The Truth.
    Last edited by David M; 01-25-2012 at 09:44 AM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    First of all to answer the question; "Is there a unity amongst all the world religions?", the answer has to be No. I do not see unity or that there ever can be. We deceive ourselves to think that there can be. God knows the heart of man and knows that it is not in man to direct his steps. Unless, men follow the True Teaching of God, they will be lead along the wrong path that leads to destruction.
    Hey there David,

    I have not fomally welcomed you to the forum, so let me say ...



    You comment has some assumptions built into it. Obviously, we all know that the exoteric form of the religions are quite different. They have different doctrines about what a person must beleive to be right with God (or Allah, or Reality or whatever) and they cause all sorts of harmful divisions amongst humans. But as the image shows, there are "inner" or "esoteric" traditions within each religion which overcome the differences of the exoteric versions. The essence that all the religions share (according to the image above) goes by various names but is understood to represent the same Ultimate Reality (God). This is called the "Perennial Philosophy."

    Also, you believe in something you call the "True Teaching of God." Well, the Bible says that God is Love, and that all who love (regardless of their exoteric traditions) "abide in God." Likewise, the Bible teaches that Jesus is the "savior of all men, especially those who believe" and that God has redeemed the whole world through Christ. Of course I know that you will interpret these verses to fit with other verses that you think are more fundamental, but that leads to the whole rat's nest of hermeneutics which is a fancy word for "folks can believe whatever they want while claiming to adhere to the True Teaching of God."

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    My reasoning from God's Word is this.

    God declares on more than one occasion and very emphatically;

    Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
    6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

    That is the heart and soul of the Perennial Philosophy. There is only one God, and that God is all in all. Everything is a manifestation of the One God, like leaves growing on a tree.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    We have to serve God in sincerity and in truth.

    Joshua14 Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
    Again, the Perennial Philosophy teaches the same thing - we must server God in sincerity and truth. Now I grant that the verse you quoted appears to teach that there are "other gods" but that contradicts the fundamental doctrine that there is only One God. So the verse must be understood as teaching that people should not follow false (non-existent) gods, and again, the Perennial Philosophy agrees completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    It is clear that men left to their own devices and imagination will create imaginary gods whom they proclaim and worship. This is clearly against the command of God Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
    That is exactly correct. The Perennial Philosophy agrees completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    God has revealed himself to us through the Scriptures or the Bible (the translated scriptures which have been handed down).

    In the New Covenant made in the blood of God’s one and only begotten son, Jesus proclaims;

    John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    Clearly, Jesus is saying there is only one way we can come to God (in these days of the New Covenant).
    In as much as Jesus is God, the Perennial Philosophy agrees. But Jesus did not say that anyone had to become a "Christian" or even know his name to be "saved." Jesus is the savior of all men, whether they know it or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Paul who was chosen by God to spread the Word (The Gospel) to the Gentiles after Jesus ascended into Heaven quite clearly taught that there is one God and one (true) faith and one (true) baptism.

    Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
    5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
    6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.)
    No problem there! There is only one True Faith - the faith in the One God who is the All in All.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Paul is adamant that there is no other gospel that should be preached.

    Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    That's right! We would do well to head his advice. The only Gospel is the Gospel of Truth, that God is Love, and those who love abide in God. That is the Gospel. If you have done it unto the least of these my brethren you have done it unto me. It is not those who say "Jesus Jesus" that will be saved, but those who do the will of the Father (Source of All, the Ultimate Reality, God).

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Jesus accused the religious teachers of his day as not teaching the truth and teaching their own fabrications;

    Mark 7:6 Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
    7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
    8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men,
    Man, he got that right, didn't he? They were teaching people that they had to follow a RELIGION like many modern Christian teach that you have to "believe in Jesus" or go to hell. I'm glad he exposed that error!

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    From the words of Jesus concerning what he will find when he returns, we have this question;

    Luke 18:8 Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
    That's a question, not a statement. And the topic of eschatology in the Bible is fraught with all kinds of contradictions and confusions so that no one in 2000 years has every been able to figure out what it really means. And most people who think they understand it have ideas that are not from the Bible at all, like a 2000 year gap in Dan 9:26-27, a re-built temple that will be re-desolated by the re-vived Roman empire, and all sorts of other imaginary things.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Jesus is talking about the True Faith. Have any of us got the True Faith? We cannot all have it, but we can all not have it.
    I see no reason we can't all have it.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    On the basis of all the above quotes from different parts of God’s Word it is clear that there should not be many religions; but there are. These are not of God’s making but of man’s own making.
    Or better - there are many exoteric versions of the One Religion which is that there is One God and it is the Source of All and is really the All in All.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Therefore, I will continue to follow the One and only True God who has declared himself through His inspired word as the prophets were guided by God to write ithem down. I am suspicious of any other work that does not have the authenticity of God as its author.

    The Son of God (Jesus) also warns us;

    John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

    I would be very careful about searching the works of men expecting to find The Truth.
    So you don't think the Bible is the "work of men?" Why is that? You know that men wrote it. And it has all the signs of a human book written by people in a pre-scientific age of superstition. I would be very interested to know why exactly you think that the Bible is different than other books written by humans.

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  4. #4
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    Hello Richard

    As no-one had replied to your new posting I thought I would start the replies. I quite expected you to comment on my reply in the detailed way that you have. I will learn how to use the quotes as you do as I go along. By the way, a great choice of software for this forum . I have found with other forums, I wrote long replies only to find the post was not accepted. It is annoying and time wasted; no such problems here. I like the way this forum autosaves.

    It is very easy to digress from the original topic. I think there are a couple of comments you have made which I think should be dealt with in a separate thread. It is good we put forward our different points of view so that others reading these posts/threads can get a balanced view and make up their own minds. That is why I have started to write on such forums to correct what I see as false teaching and not what the Bible says.

    On this one point I will comment here. I do consider the Bible (The original Scriptures) to have God as the author and not the works of men who were instrumental in writing it down. This is the way God has designed it. You will know the quote I am going to refer to which comes from 2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God

    I believe God is the author for His authority is stamped throughout the Bible. You will often see the phrase "Thus saith the Lord.' Men wrote as they were directed under inspiration.

    The Bible is not just one book but a collection of 66 books written over thousands of years. There are golden-like threads running through these scriptures that only God the author could have written. The only one way to prove there is a God is by prophecy. Telling of something before it happens. Who else can tell you a thing before it happens? God says; Isa 46: 9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done,

    The Bible agrees with history. Archaeology has proved the Bible was correct when at times there were sceptics saying that the Bible was untrue because places could not be found. These miising places have now been found. There is no other book like the Bible that has the stamp of God's authority throughout it.


    Of course, prophecy which is still future is open to lots of individual interpretation. The clues but are in the Bible; they just have to be searched for. When the things spoken of By God come to pass then we will know for sure. There is so much prophecy that has come true already, I am convinced the prophecy to be fulfilled will come to pass.

    I shall continue to argue my points from the Bible only. There is a lot of misunderstanding that is being promoted which needs to be counteracted with what I consider to be the truth and it is for others to make up their own mind. That is why it is better to start a new thread and deal with your claim that "Jesus was God". I say "he was not God". It may be a difference in our perception and language which needs to be resolved, but God claims to be ONE and there is none else.

    Thanks for providing this platform to explore truth.
    Last edited by David M; 01-26-2012 at 08:25 AM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Hello Richard

    As no-one had replied to your new posting I thought I would start the replies. I quite expected you to comment on my reply in the detailed way that you have. I will learn how to use the quotes as you do as I go along. By the way, a great choice of software for this forum . I have found with other forums, I wrote long replies only to find the post was not accepted. It is annoying and time wasted; no such problems here. I like the way this forum autosaves.
    Hey there David,

    You posed a lot of interesting points, so I felt it was a good opportunity to present alternate interpretations. Of course, I understand why you see things the way you do, and there is plenty of support for your interpretations. And I don't think that the Bible is fully consistent with the "Perennial Philosophy" - but then again, I don't think the Bible is fully consistent with any interpretation.

    I have written a post to explain how to use quotes. How to quote posts in replies

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    On this one point I will comment here. I do consider the Bible (The original Scriptures) to have God as the author and not the works of men who were instrumental in writing it down. This is the way God has designed it. You will know the quote I am going to refer to which comes from 2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God

    I believe God is the author for His authority is stamped throughout the Bible. You will often see the phrase "Thus saith the Lord.' Men wrote as they were directed under inspiration.

    The Bible is not just one book but a collection of 66 books written over thousands of years. There are golden-like threads running through these scriptures that only God the author could have written. The only one way to prove there is a God is by prophecy. Telling of something before it happens. Who else can tell you a thing before it happens? God says; Isa 46: 9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done,
    Paul was not talking about the NT when he wrote that verse, so how can it tell us anything about the collection of 66 books? Catholics can read it and say that it applies to their canon of 72 books. So it doesn't really tell us anything about the Bible as a whole.

    Phrases like "thus saith the LORD" tell us nothing about whether or not the record is inspired. The Quran says the same thing about Allah, but you don't believe it is from the true God. So I don't see how this could convince anyone that the Bible is truly inspired.

    I agree that there are many "golden-like threads" that give the sense of a superintending mind that designed Scripture. That was the primary thesis of my book titled The Bible Wheel: A Revelation of the Divine Unity of the Holy Bible. But my understanding has changed a lot since I wrote it. I still believe that the evidence I presented is true, but my interpretation has changed because now I also can see that there are lots of things in the Bible that simply are not true.

    As for prophecies, there are very few that can be objectively verified, and some that appear to be flat out wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    The Bible agrees with history. Archaeology has proved the Bible was correct when at times there were sceptics saying that the Bible was untrue because places could not be found. These miising places have now been found. There is no other book like the Bible that has the stamp of God's authority throughout it.
    Yes, that is correct. The skeptics have made many claims that were later proven false. Much of the history in the Bible has been proven true. But not all, and that's the problem. Any human book can report true history, so this is not proof of anything divine going on in the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I shall continue to argue my points from the Bible only. There is a lot of misunderstanding that is being promoted which needs to be counteracted with what I consider to be the truth and it is for others to make up their own mind. That is why it is better to start a new thread and deal with your claim that "Jesus was God". I say "he was not God". It may be a difference in our perception and language which needs to be resolved, but God claims to be ONE and there is none else.

    Thanks for providing this platform to explore truth.
    Wow - that's interesting! Please feel free to start a thread on that topic.

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  6. #6
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    Smile

    Thank you Richard

    Paul was not talking about the NT when he wrote that verse, so how can it tell us anything about the collection of 66 books? Catholics can read it and say that it applies to their canon of 72 books. So it doesn't really tell us anything about the Bible as a whole.
    I agree about Paul not referring to the New Testament. Paul did say that what he preached was as a revelation from Jesus Christ. We know that he heard the voice of Jeus on the road to Damascus. We know very little of the instruction he received. We know he was appointed the Apostle to the Gentiles. Maybe Paul's writing is less inspiration and more revelation.

    Eph2:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


    Gal1:11 11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

    I think that as the originlal scriptures were preserved and that God was influential in guiding men to select the scriptures for the Old Testament, I think the same guiding influence is behind the New Testament. I quote the 2 Tim 3:16 and accept what it says that all scripture is given by the inspiration of God. Paul could see how that applied to the Old Testament Scriptures and I have no problem accepting that the New Testament writings fall into the same category. As the New Testament is in harmony with the Old Testament and you need the Old Testament to fully understand the New Testament, I see God as the divine author who has done this to give us all that it is necessary to know. What God has not revealed and not inspired men to write down is of no importance.


    Phrases like "thus saith the LORD" tell us nothing about whether or not the record is inspired. The Quran says the same thing about Allah, but you don't believe it is from the true God. So I don't see how this could convince anyone that the Bible is truly inspired. We know Paul was the chosen Apostle to the Gentiles. After his conversion there was a period in his life where
    The phrase itself I agree is not of much weight and when there are blatant liars and deceivers in the world, it is not wise to blindly accept what people say even when they say they have received a revelation from God. The truth of the content proclaimed to come from God still has to be examined to make sure that what is said is compatible with other parts of scripture. The divine authorship as stated by such phrases as; "and God said.." are many and throughout most of the books in the Bible. Considering the independence of such writings over the centuries, the hallmark of God can be seen to run through them. I have yet to find contradictions. Those who claim there are contradictions have not found the true understanding.

    I also can see that there are lots of things in the Bible that simply are not true.
    Maybe you just need to find the true interpretation. That was one of my arguments which you agreed with; that places mentioned in the Bible were thought not to have existed and the Bible was treated as myth until these places were discovered. Babylon is one example that for centuries had been lost under covereing of sand.

    As for prophecies, there are very few that can be objectively verified, and some that appear to be flat out wrong.
    By this you are saying that some prophecies can and have been verified. Surely, you just need to find the answer to the prophecies you do not understand. You say "they appear to be flat wrong". The word appear suggests that is the way the prophecies look rather than they are wrong. I will keep an open mind about the prophecies I do not have a definite answer for. I cannot say, I have found anything that is fundamentally wrong in the Bible and I would not expect to find error where the hand of the Divine Creator is behind it. I continue to search for the truth about the things I do not have the full answer for at the moment. I blame my own lack of intellect for not understandikng, I do not blame God for my lack of understanding.

    Yes, that is correct. The skeptics have made many claims that were later proven false. Much of the history in the Bible has been proven true. But not all, and that's the problem. Any human book can report true history, so this is not proof of anything divine going on in the Bible.
    The fact that all the Bible has not been proven is not grounds for saying the Bible is wrong. You agree that much of the Bible has been proven true, so I maintain that all of the Bible is true or God is a liar if the inspired word is not true. We have to keep searching until we find the truth. This is one of the problems why there is so much false teaching and belief that the Bible is myth. People can point to a few verses in the Bible that appear to conflict and then rubbish the Bible. These are the people who we are warned of and we should not be swayed by their wrong way of thinking. Speaking of the hard things to be understood in Paul's writing, Peter says this;

    2 Pet 3:16 As also in all his (Paul's) epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

    This is the danger we can all fall foul of by either accepting another's interpretation of scripture which is wrong or denying scripture to be true because of our lack of understanding. I shall take the opportunity of giving an alternative interpretation whenever I see scriptures being wrested.

    I shall procede to put my thoughts together and post shortly on why I do not believe Jesus is God.
    Last edited by David M; 01-28-2012 at 03:41 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    I agree about Paul not referring to the New Testament. Paul did say that what he preached was as a revelation from Jesus Christ. We know that he heard the voice of Jeus on the road to Damascus. We know very little of the instruction he received. We know he was appointed the Apostle to the Gentiles. Maybe Paul's writing is less inspiration and more revelation.

    Eph2:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


    Gal1:11 11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

    I think that as the originlal scriptures were preserved and that God was influential in guiding men to select the scriptures for the Old Testament, I think the same guiding influence is behind the New Testament. I quote the 2 Tim 3:16 and accept what it says that all scripture is given by the inspiration of God. Paul could see how that applied to the Old Testament Scriptures and I have no problem accepting that the New Testament writings fall into the same category. As the New Testament is in harmony with the Old Testament and you need the Old Testament to fully understand the New Testament, I see God as the divine author who has done this to give us all that it is necessary to know. What God has not revealed and not inspired men to write down is of no importance.
    Good morning Dave,

    I'm glad we agree that Paul was not talking about the NT when he said that "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God." Why then do you apply it to the NT? That seems like a contradiction.

    And I don't understand you distinction between "revelation" and "inspiration."

    You say that you "have no problem accepting that the New Testament writings fall into the same category." Why is that? There was a lot of dispute about some of the books of the NT in the early church. Books like 2 Peter, Jude, and Revelation were not accepted for a long time. I understand that you can simply make the assumption that the 66 book canon is "inspired" but do you have any real reason supporting that assumption? How is your view different than that of a Muslim who simply assumes that the Koran is inspired by God?

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Phrases like "thus saith the LORD" tell us nothing about whether or not the record is inspired. The Quran says the same thing about Allah, but you don't believe it is from the true God. So I don't see how this could convince anyone that the Bible is truly inspired.
    The phrase itself I agree is not of much weight and when there are blatant liars and deceivers in the world, it is not wise to blindly accept what people say even when they say they have received a revelation from God. The truth of the content proclaimed to come from God still has to be examined to make sure that what is said is compatible with other parts of scripture. The divine authorship as stated by such phrases as; "and God said.." are many and throughout most of the books in the Bible. Considering the independence of such writings over the centuries, the hallmark of God can be seen to run through them. I have yet to find contradictions. Those who claim there are contradictions have not found the true understanding.
    The words highlighted red say it all. Does not the Bible fit that description perfectly? Mere "compatibility" with the OT does not say if it is inspired or not. I could write a book myself that was "compatible" with the OT but that wouldn't make it inspired.

    The "hallmark of God" is a very subjective assessment. You hold views about the Bible that most Christians reject, and it's neither simple nor obvious how to determine who is correct ~ such differences cause endless debates that are never resolved. This suggests to me that the problem is not with the interpreters so much as with the text itself. The Bible is filled with "apparent" contradictions and you merely assert that they can all be resolved by proper "interpretation." That's true, I suppose, if you are willing to accept anything, no matter how stretched and strained, as an "explanation." And most importantly, your assertion that you have "yet to find contradictions" makes it seem like you have never seriously studied the Bible. I own a number of large books such as "An Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties" and "When Critics Ask" that are devoted to resolving the contradictions in the Bible. It's no easy task! When I read their attempts it is obvious that they are straining mightily to resolve blatant contradictions, and their arguments are often very weak and unbelievable. And they often give to or three possible solutions, indicating that they are only guessing. Therefore, your belief that the Bible is inspired and that it has no contradictions is merely that - a belief without any support in logic or facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Maybe you just need to find the true interpretation. That was one of my arguments which you agreed with; that places mentioned in the Bible were thought not to have existed and the Bible was treated as myth until these places were discovered. Babylon is one example that for centuries had been lost under covereing of sand.
    I wasn't talking about something like a mention of a place that is not currently known. That wouldn't be a good argument because it would just be an argument from ignorance. I'm talking about things that we know are false, such as the idea that the earth was created in six days with a "solid dome" holding up the "waters that are above" and things like that. Contradictions with real knowledge. And contradictions within the text such as what we see in the description of the passion week. There are many details that don't fit together at all. If you think they do, it would be great if you could make a chronological outline of the passion week without leaving out any of the details given in the four gospels. We have a thread discussing this called Dan Barker's Resurrection Challenge.

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    As for prophecies, there are very few that can be objectively verified, and some that appear to be flat out wrong.
    By this you are saying that some prophecies can and have been verified. Surely, you just need to find the answer to the prophecies you do not understand. You say "they appear to be flat wrong". The word appear suggests that is the way the prophecies look rather than they are wrong. I will keep an open mind about the prophecies I do not have a definite answer for. I cannot say, I have found anything that is fundamentally wrong in the Bible and I would not expect to find error where the hand of the Divine Creator is behind it. I continue to search for the truth about the things I do not have the full answer for at the moment. I blame my own lack of intellect for not understandikng, I do not blame God for my lack of understanding.
    Most things called "prophecy" in the Bible are not prophecies at all, but bits and pieces taken out of context and applied to Jesus, such as Isaiah 7:14. They can be neither confirmed nor denied so they are irrelevant to answering the question if the Bible is from God or not.

    I know of only one set of prophecies that seems to have any objective verifiability - Dan 9:24-27 which predicts that a messiah (anointed one) would come and be killed and then the temple would be destroyed. But this is the biggest joke in the world because the vast majority of modern Christians deny that the latter part of this prophecy has anything to do with the coming of Christ in the first century because they insert a magical stretchy 2000+ year gap between the killing of the messiah and the destruction of the temple. This means that the best evidence for fulfilled prophecy (and hence, for the divine origin of the Bible) is denied by most Christians! Why then should any skeptic believe it?

    Quote Originally Posted by David M View Post
    Yes, that is correct. The skeptics have made many claims that were later proven false. Much of the history in the Bible has been proven true. But not all, and that's the problem. Any human book can report true history, so this is not proof of anything divine going on in the Bible.
    The fact that all the Bible has not been proven is not grounds for saying the Bible is wrong. You agree that much of the Bible has been proven true, so I maintain that all of the Bible is true or God is a liar if the inspired word is not true. We have to keep searching until we find the truth. This is one of the problems why there is so much false teaching and belief that the Bible is myth. People can point to a few verses in the Bible that appear to conflict and then rubbish the Bible. These are the people who we are warned of and we should not be swayed by their wrong way of thinking. Speaking of the hard things to be understood in Paul's writing, Peter says this;

    2 Pet 3:16 As also in all his (Paul's) epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

    This is the danger we can all fall foul of by either accepting another's interpretation of scripture which is wrong or denying scripture to be true because of our lack of understanding. I shall take the opportunity of giving an alternative interpretation whenever I see scriptures being wrested.

    I shall procede to put my thoughts together and post shortly on why I do not believe Jesus is God.
    You misunderstood my point. When I said that much of the Bible reports true history I was responding to your point about cities that existed at the time. Yes, there was a Jerusalem, and a Bethlehem, and so forth. But that says nothing about the truth of the stories told about Christ, which is what we are really talking about.

    The problem is not with "a few verses that appear to conflict." The problem is that there is no evidence for the central claims of the Bible and there is so much confusion in the Bible that it has spawned ten thousand conflicting interpretations. For you to ignore this and suggest that there's no real problems in the Bible makes it seem like you have not really thought much about this yet. But that's OK! We all have much to learn, myself included!

    Great chatting,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  8. #8
    Unregistered Guest

    Can't think of one, so I'll just say hello!

    Hi!
    I've been using your site for the past few days, and I have to say that I've discovered a lot more than I usually would've! Thanks!

    Now, to the more important issue: Your soul.
    You had great understanding, yet you threw it all away for something that is temporary...
    It's said in Romans that those who knew God, and yet chose to chase after the world has had a great darkness placed upon them, such so that they're deceived into thinking that they have "found the truth"!

    Those trials you went through were to see if you would accept the "truths" that Satan was hurling your way... And you took it, hook, line, and sinker. Men aren't tempted by God, but by their own desires; there are times where the Devil will give them a push and see if they'll fall, or resist and keep standing or getting back up, "having done all to stand, to continue standing." as Saul more or less said.

    You gladly took the fall, and now you're in a deceitful prison. Oh, it may not look like it, but there's a saying, "The best prison is the prison that no one knows they're in."
    Now, if you say that I'm in a prison of my own doing, I'll gladly accept it, because I accepted the call from my Savior, and now I'm free to never leave this "prison" of His Grace that keeps me apart from the slow poisoning of the world.

    If you would like to continue this conversation, you can reach me @ mikemagnus7@gmail.com
    If it's not too late, I hope that you can see the truth of God's Word, but something's telling me that it's too late... https://www.biblewheel.com/forum/images/icons/icon9.png

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    2

    Secret Societies

    A number of Secret Societies are tied up with this Global World Order/Religion some of these being Coudenhove-Kalergi (CK) which is Euro-Jewish type group, Illuminati / Freemasons and no doubt you have heard of the Skull & Bones. Currently the Freemasons are dominant in Israel. There are more Freemasons in UK cities than any other cities in the rest of the world. Two good books are:

    Brotherhood of Darkness by Dr. S. Monteith; The Committee of 300 by Dr. J. Coleman

    For financial corruption read "The Creature from Jekyll Island" by G. Edward Griffin.

    Regards
    John

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Amiel McGough View Post
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    Is this diagram accurate? Is there a unity amongst all the world religions?
    Wrong Richard, but if you change Christianity into Churchianity you get it closer to the truth.

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