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  1. #1
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    Isaiah 59 first coming of Jesus Christ - beautiful!

    I was looking at the connection to James 59th book and the 59th chapter of Isaiah.

    Isaiah 59 Interpretation Biblewheel Link
    1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
    2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear.
    3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.
    4 None calleth for justice, nor [any] pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity. James
    15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
    26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion [is] vain.
    27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.
    5 They hatch cockatrice' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper.
    6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works [are] works of iniquity, and the act of violence [is] in their hands.
    7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts [are] thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction [are] in their paths.
    8 The way of peace they know not; and [there is] no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.
    9 Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, [but] we walk in darkness.
    10 We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if [we had] no eyes: we stumble at noonday as in the night; [we are] in desolate places as dead [men].
    11 We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for judgment, but [there is] none; for salvation, [but] it is far off from us.
    12 For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions [are] with us; and [as for] our iniquities, we know them;
    13 In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood.
    14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.
    15 Yea, truth faileth; and he [that] departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw [it], and it displeased him that [there was] no judgment.
    16 And he saw that [there was] no man, and wondered that [there was] no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. Jesus is God's arm of salvation sustain
    h5564
    סמך camak
    17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance [for] clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
    18 According to [their] deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.
    19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
    20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. Jesus enters Jerusalem.
    Those who repented received this promise.
    21 As for me, this [is] my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that [is] upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever. The covenant is the crucifixion, the New Testament also the New Covenant.
    Also God gives his Holy Spirit.
    Last edited by gilgal; 11-29-2011 at 04:37 PM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    I was looking at the connection to James 59th book and the 59th chapter of Isaiah.
    Nice work Gilgal. Did you write code to automate making tables for the forum? That's a great idea. I think I'll add it to my database!

    It was cool that you found the fundamental Samek KeyWord samak (support) in Isaiah 59 = 1522 = 15 + 2 x 22.

    We also have an Alphabetic KeyLink from the Samek verse in two of the Alphabetic Psalms:

    AV Psalm 34:14 Depart from evil [סור מרע], and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.
    AV Psalm 37:27 Depart from evil [סור מרע], and do good; and dwell for evermore.
    Isaiah 59:15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil [ סר מרע ] maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.

    Is that amazing or what? I talk about this here.

    There are also many powerful connections between Isaiah 59 and Book 59 (James). I talk about a few of them here:

    [Inner Wheels] > Isaiah 59 - James: Works Righteousness.

    I have added these links to your table. There's also a first order projective link between James and Isaiah 59:



    There's a lot more I could put in but I don't have time righth now.

    Isaiah 59 Book 59 (James) / Commentary Biblewheel Link
    1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
    2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear.
    3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness. James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
    4 None calleth for justice, nor [any] pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity. James 3:3 Behold, we put bits in the horses’ mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body. ... Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
    5 They hatch cockatrice' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper.
    6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works [are] works of iniquity, and the act of violence [is] in their hands.
    7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts [are] thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction [are] in their paths. James 3: But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
    8 The way of peace they know not; and [there is] no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.
    9 Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, [but] we walk in darkness.
    10 We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if [we had] no eyes: we stumble at noonday as in the night; [we are] in desolate places as dead [men].
    11 We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for judgment, but [there is] none; for salvation, [but] it is far off from us.
    12 For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions [are] with us; and [as for] our iniquities, we know them;
    13 In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood.
    14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.
    15 Yea, truth faileth; and he [that] departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw [it], and it displeased him that [there was] no judgment. AV Psa 34:14
    AV Psa 37:27
    סור מרע
    16 And he saw that [there was] no man, and wondered that [there was] no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. Jesus is God's arm of salvation sustain
    h5564
    סמך camak
    17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance [for] clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
    18 According to [their] deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.
    19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
    20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. Jesus enters Jerusalem.
    Those who repented received this promise.
    21 As for me, this [is] my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that [is] upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever. The covenant is the crucifixion, the New Testament also the New Covenant.
    Also God gives his Holy Spirit.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Nice work Gilgal. Did you write code to automate making tables for the forum? That's a great idea. I think I'll add it to my database!
    I did use Dreamweaver's replace function. Otherwise it's hard to type out the table td and tr. But you should have something concerning tables in your admin tools to enable the table button under the bold button.

    The notes from my bible were taken from your site, that's right.

    What I meant to include is to understand how the gospel fits in the works and faith issue.

  4. #4
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    You mean Isaiah 59 = 152 = 15 + 2 x 22
    Isaiah 59 Book 59 (James) / Commentary Biblewheel Link
    1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
    2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear.
    3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness. James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
    4 None calleth for justice, nor [any] pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity. James 3:3 Behold, we put bits in the horses’ mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body. ... Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
    5 They hatch cockatrice' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper.
    6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works [are] works of iniquity, and the act of violence [is] in their hands.
    7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts [are] thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction [are] in their paths. James 3: But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
    8 The way of peace they know not; and [there is] no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.
    9 Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, [but] we walk in darkness.
    10 We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if [we had] no eyes: we stumble at noonday as in the night; [we are] in desolate places as dead [men].
    11 We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for judgment, but [there is] none; for salvation, [but] it is far off from us.
    12 For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions [are] with us; and [as for] our iniquities, we know them;
    13 In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood.
    14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.
    15 Yea, truth faileth; and he [that] departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw [it], and it displeased him that [there was] no judgment. AV Psalm 34:14 Depart from evil [סור מרע], and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.
    AV Psalm 37:27 Depart from evil [סור מרע], and do good; and dwell for evermore.
    16 And he saw that [there was] no man, and wondered that [there was] no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. Jesus is God's arm of salvation sustain
    h5564
    סמך camak
    17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance [for] clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
    18 According to [their] deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.
    19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
    20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. Jesus enters Jerusalem.
    Those who repented received this promise.
    21 As for me, this [is] my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that [is] upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever. The covenant is the crucifixion, the New Testament also the New Covenant.
    Also God gives his Holy Spirit.

  5. #5
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    Isaiah 59 first coming of Jesus Christ

    Hi gilgal and Richard,

    I have a question for Richard.

    I really like when you do that graph thing to show how two places in scripture link up on the wheel. Do you always write the word 'LIGHT' above them? I ask simply because in this case the verses are about evil. I know that Paul says in Ephesians that whatever exposes evil is 'light', but I'd like your explanation, please?

    The other comment I wish to make, having followed the link you gave to the Book 59 page (James) is about the conflict you keep mentioning about works and faith, quoting James and Paul in regard to Abraham. I know I've commented in another thread, that they were both justified by faith which produces a tangible outcome. Are you able to explain more fully why you accept the conflict which appears at face value, even though the backstory in both places is very clear, and, (unlike many others who stumble at this superficial contradiction), you have such a knowledge of what else the Bible says on faith?

    Genesis 22:15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, 16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son]: 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

    In the story of Abraham, he had heard from God, had followed God's instructions (indicating 'faith' in God's word to him, personally) and thereby had physically moved from the place where God spoke to him the first time, to other places where God spoke to him subsequent times. This is the pattern for 'believing God', although at times there is no physical movement required (or possible) but rather a journey the heart must make. Some of us like to have our mind keep up the pace, but for others, the mind catches up when it sees the outcome of the heart's obedience. Probably for most of us, the need to move before full understanding, applies at least some of the time.

    Sometimes, too, obedience is about not 'doing' something, regardless of one's personal desire (or craving) for the mind of the flesh to be satisfied by taking 'action'. This can be a long, painful, learning process, which bears fruit only slowly, a bit like a fruit tree being trained into a particular shape for best management and fruit-bearing. To the tree itself there is nothing to commend the new stance, but from the husbandman's perspective, the new 'stance' is imperative. Since God doesn't force us to 'do' anything, He depends on our desire for complaince with His desire, to motivate us to overcome the resistance to that compliance which we find within ourselves. He knows we need help with this, so He arranged for the Holy Spirit to be available as the indwelling enabler:

    Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. This is an aspect of on-going justification by faith. Indeed, it is an imperative outcome of being joined to God through the New Covenant.

    What scuppered Adam was his choice to disregard God's word , which culminated in him actually eating the forbidden fruit. James explains the process - 1:14, 15. One could hypothesise that if Adam had understood with his mind what 'death' would do to him, he may not have gone so far as to take the action he did in spite of no experience of God being unfaithful by which to agree with the serpent. He only had the word of the serpent, which was a simple denial of what God had said, preceded by a most significant doubt-producing question.

    In every way Adam showed us how 'faith' comes about, in that he 'heard' something which he believed into - in this case, to his detriment. We see (now) that none of us have come into a world where God has not already spoken, so, although we are born naturally to doubt, we do have a choice of believing a different 'voice' - God's. Adam had not experienced the death that he believed into, until he disobeyed God. Likewise, we have not experienced life until we choose to disobey doubt-in-God, through trusting Christ. Obviously, we do not have peace with God while we are in agreement with the serpent.

    Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

    John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hi gilgal and Richard,

    I have a question for Richard.

    I really like when you do that graph thing to show how two places in scripture link up on the wheel. Do you always write the word 'LIGHT' above them? I ask simply because in this case the verses are about evil. I know that Paul says in Ephesians that whatever exposes evil is 'light', but I'd like your explanation, please?
    Good morning Charisma,

    I'm really glad you asked since there certainly are many others who have the same question.

    The graph is actually not about the Bible Wheel, but rather the Isaiah-Bible Correlation. It is intended to show that the verse located at a point in the 3D Bible "casts a shadow" onto a corresponding point on the 2D plane of Isaiah. That's why I use the word "light" - to remind the reader that the Bible and Isaiah related like an object and it's shadow. It has absolutely nothing to do with the "goodness" or "badness" of the content of the linked verses.



    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    The other comment I wish to make, having followed the link you gave to the Book 59 page (James) is about the conflict you keep mentioning about works and faith, quoting James and Paul in regard to Abraham. I know I've commented in another thread, that they were both justified by faith which produces a tangible outcome. Are you able to explain more fully why you accept the conflict which appears at face value, even though the backstory in both places is very clear, and, (unlike many others who stumble at this superficial contradiction), you have such a knowledge of what else the Bible says on faith?
    I think you are reading that article through eyes colored by my recent rejection of Biblical infallibility. I wrote the article [Inner Wheels] > Isaiah 59 - James: Works Righteousness at the height of my Christian faith when I was fully convinced of the divine inspiration of Scripture. I began the article by pointing out the apparent conflict so I could then present the resolution, showing the perfect unity of James and Paul and the Bible as God's Word. Did you read the whole article? I can see why you might have come to this mistaken conclusion if you stopped at the second paragraph because that was just the "set up" of the problem before I stated the solution in the third paragraph. Here is what I wrote:
    The miracle of God is that He has designed the structure of Isaiah to cast His divine light onto this question. Isaiah chapter 59 corresponds to the Book of James. The correspondence between these two geometrically correlated portions of Scripture is truly astounding. Isaiah 59 explicitly addresses the question of justification by works, saying "they shall not cover themselves with their works." And who was Isaiah referring to? He spoke of the unrepentant evil doers, whose works are "works of iniquity." James, on the other hand, spoke of works done in faith, for without faith it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11.6). The solution to the question of works righteousness may be stated quite simply as follows: It is impossible for the righteousness of God to come out of a man before it has entered him through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    As you can see, I asserted that though there is an apparent conflict, there is no real conflict.

    Of course, I am no longer convinced that this is necessarily a valid solution, but it is probably what I would believe if I began with the presupposition that everything in the Bible must be logically coherent.

    A lot of folks don't realize that they are imposing "logical coherence" on the Bible when it may not in fact exist. Most Christians feel satisfied if they can find some sort of resolution of the conflicts, but they forget that their "solutions" are only speculative and they could be wrong and the Bible could be incoherent, or perhaps they landed on the wrong "solution."

    I'm really glad you asked these two questions since I can see how they could have led to more misunderstandings.

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  7. #7
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    Isaiah 59 first coming of Jesus Christ - beautiful!

    Hello Richard,

    The graph is actually not about the Bible Wheel, but rather the Isaiah-Bible Correlation. It is intended to show that the verse located at a point in the 3D Bible "casts a shadow" onto a corresponding point on the 2D plane of Isaiah. That's why I use the word "light" - to remind the reader that the Bible and Isaiah related like an object and it's shadow. It has absolutely nothing to do with the "goodness" or "badness" of the content of the linked verses.
    Thank you for this and your following explanation. Very recently you brought up the appearance of conflict between Paul and James, so I thought it was something you didn't understand.

    Regarding logical incoherence, all that's important is that God is not logically incoherent. What is missing from the Bible, or added to the Bible, is far less important than that the main narrative came to a place of fulfilment which can be recognised from prophecy, and, that through God's relationship with His people, it continues.
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Hello Richard,

    Thank you for this and your following explanation. Very recently you brought up the appearance of conflict between Paul and James, so I thought it was something you didn't understand.

    Regarding logical incoherence, all that's important is that God is not logically incoherent. What is missing from the Bible, or added to the Bible, is far less important than that the main narrative came to a place of fulfilment which can be recognised from prophecy, and, that through God's relationship with His people, it continues.
    Hey there my friend,

    I'm glad we got that cleared up.

    As for "logical coherency" - that whole concept might be overblown. Indeed, it could be a fundamental error to insist upon logical coherence because logic is made of words, and words are only approximations to reality. As a mathematician I've always liked to use rational numbers as an example. A number is called "rational" if it is the ratio of two whole numbers, like 1/2, 2/3, or 17/32. The problem with rational numbers is that they don't cover all the possibilities. For example, the length of the diagonal of a square of side 1 is the square root of 2. But guess what? That number cannot be written as a ratio of two whole numbers! That's why it's called an "irrational number." Ha! Don't you love it! Those "hyper-logical" mathematicians use things called "irrational numbers" in almost all of their calculations.

    So I take language to be like "rational numbers." They are very useful, but they cover only a small part of reality, and when we think they are sufficient to cover all reality, we delude ourselves.

    So maybe the Bible - in as much it is made of words - is not meant to be "logically coherent." Perhaps that would defeat the intent God had when he designed it?

    There are many possibilities that open up when we free our minds from preconceptions and dogmas that seemed so "obvious" and "self-evident" to those who gave us the "Christian faith."

    Great chatting,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #9
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    Isaiah 59 first coming of Jesus Christ - beautiful!

    As for "logical coherency" - that whole concept might be overblown. Indeed, it could be a fundamental error to insist upon logical coherence because logic is made of words, and words are only approximations to reality. As a mathematician I've always liked to use rational numbers as an example. A number is called "rational" if it is the ratio of two whole numbers, like 1/2, 2/3, or 17/32. The problem with rational numbers is that they don't cover all the possibilities. For example, the length of the diagonal of a square of side 1 is the square root of 2. But guess what? That number cannot be written as a ratio of two whole numbers! That's why it's called an "irrational number." Ha! Don't you love it! Those "hyper-logical" mathematicians use things called "irrational numbers" in almost all of their calculations.

    So I take language to be like "rational numbers." They are very useful, but they cover only a small part of reality, and when we think they are sufficient to cover all reality, we delude ourselves.

    So maybe the Bible - in as much it is made of words - is not meant to be "logically coherent." Perhaps that would defeat the intent God had when he designed it?
    Now you're talking! We might even be communicating at last!

    There are many possibilities that open up when we free our minds from preconceptions and dogmas that seemed so "obvious" and "self-evident" to those who gave us the "Christian faith."
    Nothing beats letting God speak to you directly from the word and through times of listening prayer. He knows all about the assumptions we've made, the wrong teaching we've had, etc etc etc. He knows how to communicate in ways we (you, I, A N Other) will understand, and, how to build up our understanding of Himself and His purposes. I really do look forward to the new things you begin to see for yourself. Love the irrational numbers. That works for me!
    16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

    Ephesians 3

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Now you're talking! We might even be communicating at last!
    Definitely time for a celebration!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charisma View Post
    Nothing beats letting God speak to you directly from the word and through times of listening prayer. He knows all about the assumptions we've made, the wrong teaching we've had, etc etc etc. He knows how to communicate in ways we (you, I, A N Other) will understand, and, how to build up our understanding of Himself and His purposes. I really do look forward to the new things you begin to see for yourself. Love the irrational numbers. That works for me!
    I was really hesitant about using the irrational numbers example because I didn't know if you would create more confusion rather than clarity. I'm thrilled it worked! I really do like the insight it gives.

    Isn't amazing how much work it takes for us humans to even begin to understand each other enough to communicate? Even when we speak the same language? No wonder there are so many wars.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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